Chap 1 Races

[irdeggman]

All right, I'm going to try something here in regards to Chap 1. I'm going to try to break it into sections that we can sanction as sections.

I believe based on the comments (and polls on human subraces) that this is the version that people like for the races portion of Chap 1.

I'll put this up for discussion for about a week or so and see who bites. Please give positive feedback also. In this case "I like it" or "me too" posts are actually are useful.

Here is the pdf version:

[irdeggman]

Here is the word version:

[RaspK_FOG]

Me likes; me approves; me sanctions! :lol:

[Athos69]

I'll approve it with one caveat, which might prove useful for newer players, or DMs wanting to enhance the setting. We include a paragraph for each of the following races, describing their real-world linguistic counterpart for purposes of naming and language use.

Brecht: Germanic
Khinasi: Arabic
Rjurik: Norse
Vos: Russian
Sidhe: Gaelic

This will assist DMs name NPCs and players name PCs, in addition to giving them a good push in the right direction for pronounciations. (I would also find this useful as a DM who uses accents when an NPC is speaking to players.)

[graham anderson]

I would have prefered the humans to have to take a regional feat.

Why do you have the brechts as spanish they were based on the hensiatic league and therefore germany and I would say they have a lot more similaritys to there than spain.

I still think that the elves look a little weak maybe a +2 to int would help to balance the positive and negative stats as in third ed str and con are worth more.

Those are my points I don't know weather anyone will agree with me but there you go.

[Athos69]

Graham, I agree with you re: the Brecht's culture.

The problem is that someone her on the board is so firmly entrenched in their take on History (having done research in University), and will pull up reams of not generally known research on the rising merchant class of 1300s Spain. I don't think that they had a huge sea-based power block of squabbling city-states kept in line by merchant-princes, but I could be completely wrong here.

What they fail to realize that if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's not a chicken.

For exactly the same reason, I have given up on pushing the Vos as being analogous to the Rus, and the Khinasi similar to the Caliphates of the Ottoman Empire during the Crusades.

At least they got the Rjurik correct.

[Athos69]

Another quick point... pronounciation.

Brecht (BREH-kt)
Basarji (bah-SAR-zhee)
Rjurik (ree-YOU-rik)

And a note that the Dwarves call themselves the Karamhul (KARA-mool)

[soudhadies]

First off, Let me say that the Infamous Reputation thing for Elves and Half-elves rocks! Finally, something that I can point to for my players and say "Play an elf if you like, but people will not be nice to you." I found it curious that elves have an ability score bonus for an ability, while they have major penalties applied to skills that rely on the ability, but I think I can rationalize it as being more Sorceror than personable-related.

I also like the skills and saving throws assigned to each culture. However, I'm not sure that elite characters (read PCs) should be forced to take skills in the cultural region. 3.x seems to be about giving options, and limiting options seems counter to that (it will also stir the resentment of Players, so I ask also in the interests of my physical well-being ;)).

The cultural thing also bothers me, and probably a lot of people (specifically with regards to the Brecht and the Khinasi). Regardless of how many reams of paper support the ideas, the issue at hand is that we're dealing with stereotypes if we're going to reduce cultural comparisons to one sentence. The number of trading consulates maintained by Aragon in the Rennaissance is not generally well known, thanks to games like Civilzation and countless others you say Dutch, they think seafaring traders. Similarly, you say Spain and people think of Cortez, or El Cid, or Galleons (which Anuire has, not the Brecht), or the inquisition. If you say Ancient Egyptian people think of bare-chested Pharaohs with linen-skirts and a very tall headdress/crown (and an ankh). If you say Arabs, or Arabian Nights on the other hand, people will bring the mental imagery that is supported by the artwork in Cities of the Sun and elsewhere.

For people who don't have the time to do intensive comparitive historical research, the one sentence approach needs to be used. After all, thats how the Campaign was designed. Have a look at Rich Baker's original forward in the original Atlas of Cerilia. Second paragraph. Second sentence. As soon as you read that sentence you should know exactly what two human groups he's refering to. Our cultural equivalents need to be the same way: as soon as you read it you need to know what we're talking about.

[Osprey]

Overall, I like this part of Chapter 1. While I would still love to see elves more developed as a race of true immortals, I'll accept this version and work it from there (knowing that my own ideas are simply too radicala departure from the 2e versions in BR :( ).

One thing remains to be clarfied, and I think it needs to be in this section: aging. Are we to assume that the age categories for the various raves are identical tot he PHB ones? Do elves become adults the same as PHB elves? What about half-elves?

My suggestion is this:
1. Keep humans, halflings, and dwarves the same as their PHB counterparts.
2. Give half-elves (having an immortal parent) the aging of PHB elves, except that they hit young adulthood (equivalent to an 18-year old human) around age 30-40, rather than the ridiculous 100 years of childhood. OK, maybe growing up in the elven realms entirely this would be true, but I expect most half-elves with some exposure to human parentage would mature much more quickly.

Otherwise, I think the races are great! They've definitely been hammered, tempered, and reforged at this point, and I believe are mostly ready for publication. Thanks for keeping this rolling, Irdeggman! :)

Osprey

[Athos69]

Osprey: I agree with needing the aging/age categories/lifespan data as a table, just like in the PHB. In no other setting are Elves immortal, so this is a radical departure from the typical.

Were we going to include information about using the three Goblin races as PCs? Even a footnote? If so, we'll need to add that data into the racial age limits table.

[Osprey]

And while we're at it, including size and height would be good as a table too. :)

[Athos69]

Originally posted by Bearcat+Jun 22 2004, 07:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bearcat &#064; Jun 22 2004, 07:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Have a look at Rich Baker&#39;s original forward in the original Atlas of Cerilia. Second paragraph. Second sentence. As soon as you read that sentence you should know exactly what two human groups he&#39;s refering to. Our cultural equivalents need to be the same way: as soon as you read it you need to know what we&#39;re talking about.[/b]
Third paragraph, actually. I just looked it up, and I&#39;m tapping it out for the benefit of everyone who no longer has it.

<!--QuoteBegin-Rich Baker@ Atlas of Cerillia, Birthright Box Set
"Our first maps were drawn on a dry-erase board, with cryptic notes like "big forest", "Russian guys" and "German Traders".[/quote]

I would use Rich Baker&#39;s words as proof positive that he did not have ancient cultures (Egypt, Persian Empire), or the rising merchant classes of Spain and the Mediterranean in mind when he came up with the human sub-races.

Using this line of reasoning, we should revert to his original concepts, instead of trying to overlay something different on it.

[irdeggman]

One thing remains to be clarfied, and I think it needs to be in this section: aging. Are we to assume that the age categories for the various raves are identical tot he PHB ones? Do elves become adults the same as PHB elves? What about half-elves?

Good point I need to add something for the race that is different than the PHB (i.e., elves). Pretty much elves won&#39;t have an aging table. They don&#39;t suffer aging effects (IMO they shouldn&#39;t gain the aging benefits if they don&#39;t suffer the penalties - we can write this off as part of their &#39;difficulty maintaining their desire to keep on existing for ever&#39;.


2. Give half-elves (having an immortal parent) the aging of PHB elves, except that they hit young adulthood (equivalent to an 18-year old human) around age 30-40, rather than the ridiculous 100 years of childhood. OK, maybe growing up in the elven realms entirely this would be true, but I expect most half-elves with some exposure to human parentage would mature much more quickly.

In 2nd ed BR 1/2 elves aged exactly like their human counterparts. So maintaing the tables in the PHB work pretty well as a compromise, IMO. It is also easier than having to refer to 2 different sets of tables which would only be slightly different in the first place.


Otherwise, I think the races are great&#33; They&#39;ve definitely been hammered, tempered, and reforged at this point, and I believe are mostly ready for publication. Thanks for keeping this rolling, Irdeggman

Thanks.
I do have an ulterior motive at work here too. I need to take a break. So I&#39;m trying to get things to a point where I&#39;m comfortable with backing away for a little while. Remember that I&#39;ve been working at this for going on 3 years mostly straight. First in the initial writing phase and then subsequently with on line discussions and revisions.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by graham anderson@Jun 22 2004, 07:00 PM

I still think that the elves look a little weak maybe a +2 to int would help to balance the positive and negative stats as in third ed str and con are worth more.

Actually Cha = Con and Dex= Str. DMG (3.5 pg 173). Even though the table doesn&#39;t always make sense, for instance it lists a gain to Con as being balanced by a losss to Cha but a gain in Cha is not balanced by a loss in Con?. I guess it depends on the logic used, PHB dwarves gain Con in exchange for a loss in Cha.

Regardless elves gain other benes that make the trade off (those druid-like nature abilities).

[irdeggman]

I also like the skills and saving throws assigned to each culture. However, I&#39;m not sure that elite characters (read PCs) should be forced to take skills in the cultural region. 3.x seems to be about giving options, and limiting options seems counter to that (it will also stir the resentment of Players, so I ask also in the interests of my physical well-being ;)).

This was one of the results of the poll. But regardless for balance it is only the first level +4 skill points that must be spent there (see Wheel of Time for equivalent comparison) but in exchange the cultural skills listed are always considered class skills - so in the long run it will pay off.


The cultural thing also bothers me, and probably a lot of people (specifically with regards to the Brecht and the Khinasi). Regardless of how many reams of paper support the ideas, the issue at hand is that we&#39;re dealing with stereotypes if we&#39;re going to reduce cultural comparisons to one sentence. The number of trading consulates maintained by Aragon in the Rennaissance is not generally well known, thanks to games like Civilzation and countless others you say Dutch, they think seafaring traders. Similarly, you say Spain and people think of Cortez, or El Cid, or Galleons (which Anuire has, not the Brecht), or the inquisition. If you say Ancient Egyptian people think of bare-chested Pharaohs with linen-skirts and a very tall headdress/crown (and an ankh). If you say Arabs, or Arabian Nights on the other hand, people will bring the mental imagery that is supported by the artwork in Cities of the Sun and elsewhere.

For people who don&#39;t have the time to do intensive comparitive historical research, the one sentence approach needs to be used. After all, thats how the Campaign was designed. Have a look at Rich Baker&#39;s original forward in the original Atlas of Cerilia. Second paragraph. Second sentence. As soon as you read that sentence you should know exactly what two human groups he&#39;s refering to. Our cultural equivalents need to be the same way: as soon as you read it you need to know what we&#39;re talking about

After the reams of discussion on this topic I couldn&#39;t quite come up with an &#39;easy&#39; way to resolve it (still won&#39;t based on discussions here) - so I just left it as is. IMO the d20 Atlas will go into the &#39;desired&#39; detail for the cultural distinctions (and will supercede the BRCS in these regards).

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Athos69@Jun 22 2004, 11:16 PM
Were we going to include information about using the three Goblin races as PCs? Even a footnote? If so, we&#39;ll need to add that data into the racial age limits table.
Goblins are going to be covered in the d20 Atlas.

[soudhadies]

After the reams of discussion on this topic I couldn&#39;t quite come up with an &#39;easy&#39; way to resolve it (still won&#39;t based on discussions here) - so I just left it as is. IMO the d20 Atlas will go into the &#39;desired&#39; detail for the cultural distinctions (and will supercede the BRCS in these regards).


Has a poll been conducted on this topic? That seems to be as good a mechanism for dispute resolution as we have.

[soudhadies]

Out of curiousity, why were the DCs for the use of halflings detection abilities removed?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Bearcat@Jun 23 2004, 06:32 PM
Out of curiousity, why were the DCs for the use of halflings detection abilities removed?
Good question. I missed that change when I picked up Doom&#39;s revision to the chapter and no one else seemed to pick it up until now. I&#39;ll see what I can come up with to fix it.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Bearcat@Jun 22 2004, 09:02 PM
I found it curious that elves have an ability score bonus for an ability, while they have major penalties applied to skills that rely on the ability, but I think I can rationalize it as being more Sorceror than personable-related.

Remember that the &#39;penalty&#39; only applies to cultures where their &#39;infamous reputation&#39; applies. Their are some places where it is more likely not to apply (this is up to the DM to afix the cultural affinities in his campaign) but most places in Vosgaard are not specifically listed as having the Vos and elves being at war with each other. Since human memories fade much quicker than do elven ones, the Vos might not remember the elven betrayal (i.e., last minute switching of sides) at Deismaar. Regardless, they didn&#39;t have the long history of racial wars that the other human cultures did with the elves.

The apparent conflict is one of natural ability (good looks and charm) versus cultural prejudice. So while on the surface it looks to be a conflict it actually works on game-mechanic standpoint.

[Benjamin]

Originally posted by irdeggman+Jun 24 2004, 04:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman @ Jun 24 2004, 04:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bearcat@Jun 22 2004, 09:02 PM
I found it curious that elves have an ability score bonus for an ability, while they have major penalties applied to skills that rely on the ability, but I think I can rationalize it as being more Sorceror than personable-related.


Since human memories fade much quicker than do elven ones, the Vos might not remember the elven betrayal (i.e., last minute switching of sides) at Deismaar. Regardless, they didn&#39;t have the long history of racial wars that the other human cultures did with the elves. [/b][/quote]
Ah, but that isn&#39;t quite true. After all, Tuar Annwn is part of the Shadow World now because of the elves had to unleash some terrible force to save their homeland from the Vos. The Battle Fens is proof that an epic war took place.

Cwmb Bhein retreated (Warded themselves away, seems to me) for a few thousand years to avoid the Vos, so that also makes me think Vos and elves don&#39;t get along.

Finally, the nona vs. tova struggle can be extended to elves, too, since the elves don&#39;t follow Kriesha and Belinik, and are thus enemies of the established churches.

[Athos69]

Duane, Can we get a similar poll done on the Khinasi? I favour a more Arabic culture than ancient Persia/Egypt.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Athos69@Jun 24 2004, 02:57 PM
Duane, Can we get a similar poll done on the Khinasi? I favour a more Arabic culture than ancient Persia/Egypt.
I was thinking of that too, expect one pretty soon.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by irdeggman+Jun 24 2004, 04:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (irdeggman @ Jun 24 2004, 04:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bearcat@Jun 23 2004, 06:32 PM
Out of curiousity, why were the DCs for the use of halflings detection abilities removed?
Good question. I missed that change when I picked up Doom&#39;s revision to the chapter and no one else seemed to pick it up until now. I&#39;ll see what I can come up with to fix it. [/b][/quote]
I went back through and looked at this again. I discovered (or at least the light bulb went on above my head) as to why the DCs were removed. The ability functions just like the spells listed. Adding DCs here would overly complicate an existing system.

The only detection spell listed here that has DCs is Detect Magic and that is to us a Spellcraft check to determine the school of the spell being used, not applicable since it only works on necromancy spells.

So, the DCs don&#39;t need to be added. I will add a note specifying that they function just like the spells for clarity.

[Kelphthal]

I think it looks excellent.

My own personal one item wish list is seeing the improved carrying capaciities of dwarves come back... perhaps ignoring the max dex penalty for light and medium loads as well as the speed reduction... dream dream dream

Other than that looks 4-star

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Kelphthal@Jul 16 2004, 07:05 PM
I think it looks excellent.

My own personal one item wish list is seeing the improved carrying capaciities of dwarves come back... perhaps ignoring the max dex penalty for light and medium loads as well as the speed reduction... dream dream dream

Other than that looks 4-star
Isn&#39;t this pretty much what that extra carrying capacity did (standard 3.5 dwarves)?

"Medium-size (4’ to 4’6” tall); base speed of 20 feet. However, dwarves can move this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load."

Well except for the dex penalty thing, but even so when the 3.5 core rules come so close to capturing the 2nd ed ability it only makes sense to go with it.

The next "revision" to this chapter will be coming out soon, real soon.