Priest Realm Spells and minor a

[John]

> 1. Should a priest who has minor access to a sphere (eg Haelyn &
> Nercomatic) be allowed to cast realm spells in that Sphere (eg Legion of
> dead). Another example is priests of Avani with minor access to creation
> and the maintain armies realm spell.

Personally, I'd say yes, with a fair bit of GM ruling on the matter.
If the use of the realm spell (and, indeed, the spell itself) was all
fine and dandy as far as the god's religion went, eg. a priest
of Avani using Maintain Army on his templar knights, then I don't see
a problem. On the other hand, if the tenets of the faith don't agree
with the spell or its uses, eg. that priest of Haelyn trying to
summon hordes of undead warriors - definitely not a noble or decent
thing to do - then I'd argue that the god refuses to grant that
particular request. If the player finds a way around it, then their
god should stiff 'em for breaking the faith....... hehehe.......

> Also if you think that minor access to a sphere allows the realm spells
> to be cast then should only the lower level realm spell be avalible.
> This would mean that Maintain Armies which requires a level 2 caster can
> be cast by priests of Avani but Legion of Dead which requires a level 5
> caster can not be cast by priests of Haelyn?

Again, I'd keep it as read that the Minor access level restriction
applies to realm spells just as it does to normal magic. If Haelyn
doesn't grant you the ability to raise the dead as a persoanl spell,
I see no reason why he'd let you get away with doing it on a national
level, no matter how nicely the priest asks.

John.

"Once I was a lamb, playing in a green field. Then
the wolves came. Now I am an eagle and I fly in a
different universe."
"And now you kill the lambs," whispered Dardalion.
"No, priest. No one pays for lambs."
- David Gemmel, Waylander

[Gary V. Foss]

darkstar wrote:

> This is a question that has had me wondering for the past hour so I
> thought I would ask everyone else for their opinion.
>
> 1. Should a priest who has minor access to a sphere (eg Haelyn &
> Nercomatic) be allowed to cast realm spells in that Sphere (eg Legion of
> dead). Another example is priests of Avani with minor access to creation
> and the maintain armies realm spell.
>
> Also if you think that minor access to a sphere allows the realm spells
> to be cast then should only the lower level realm spell be avalible.
> This would mean that Maintain Armies which requires a level 2 caster can
> be cast by priests of Avani but Legion of Dead which requires a level 5
> caster can not be cast by priests of Haelyn?
>
> So what does everyone think?

I'd be inclined to a version of the second possibility you desribed, but I
think the priest of Haelyn would be able to cast the Legion of Dead spell--if
you forget about the alignment conflict, that is. Minor access lets a priest
cast spells of up to 3rd level. Priests gain fourth level spells at 7th level,
so I'd let a priest with minor access to a sphere cast a realm spell from that
sphere if the spell had a character level of 6th or lower.

It's kind of confusing that Realm spells use character level instead of spell
level, isn't it?

- -Gary

[darkstar]

Gary V. Foss wrote:

> > So what does everyone think?
>
> I'd be inclined to a version of the second possibility you desribed, but I
> think the priest of Haelyn would be able to cast the Legion of Dead spell--if
> you forget about the alignment conflict, that is. Minor access lets a priest
> cast spells of up to 3rd level. Priests gain fourth level spells at 7th level,
> so I'd let a priest with minor access to a sphere cast a realm spell from that
> sphere if the spell had a character level of 6th or lower.

For some reason I keep thinking that minor access is 1st and 2nd level
spell. I guess I have been DM spelljammer games for too long. As for the
Alignment conflict for Priest's of Haelyn there is none. They can be
Lawful Evil and so for some priests summoning undead may seem as a means
of protecting the law. I am not sure Haelyn would think this way though,
God of Noble Warfare and all that.


> It's kind of confusing that Realm spells use character level instead of spell
> level, isn't it?

Very

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://darkstar.cyberserv.com
ICQ: 2938300

[bloebick@juno.com (Benja]

On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:18:18 +0930 darkstar writes:
>This is a question that has had me wondering for the past hour so I
>thought I would ask everyone else for their opinion.
>
>1. Should a priest who has minor access to a sphere (eg Haelyn &
>Nercomatic) be allowed to cast realm spells in that Sphere (eg Legion
>of
>dead). Another example is priests of Avani with minor access to
>creation
>and the maintain armies realm spell.
>
>Also if you think that minor access to a sphere allows the realm
>spells
>to be cast then should only the lower level realm spell be avalible.
>This would mean that Maintain Armies which requires a level 2 caster
>can
>be cast by priests of Avani but Legion of Dead which requires a level
>5
>caster can not be cast by priests of Haelyn?
>
>So what does everyone think?
>
>--
>Ian Hoskins

Well, hmmm. Very good question. In my esteemed, valued and highly
learned view (read: ignorant opinion;), I say minor access does not allow
realm spells of that sphere. Why? Well, if the god has decided that the
priesthood cannot cast powerful normal spells from that sphere, then why
would it be OK to suddenly cast massively huge powerful spells that
affect an entire province from that sphere? It just doesn't make sense.

"Oh, I'm sorry, you can't cast that 4th level spell, there, priestess
girl. But instead, cast the realm spell version and not only affect what
you wanted to, but the other 40,000 people in this province as well!" -
some god to a follower

Just doesn't make a lot of sense, eh?

Benjamin

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[Gary V. Foss]

Benjamin W Loebick wrote:

> Well, hmmm. Very good question. In my esteemed, valued and highly
> learned view (read: ignorant opinion;), I say minor access does not allow
> realm spells of that sphere. Why? Well, if the god has decided that the
> priesthood cannot cast powerful normal spells from that sphere, then why
> would it be OK to suddenly cast massively huge powerful spells that
> affect an entire province from that sphere? It just doesn't make sense.
>
> "Oh, I'm sorry, you can't cast that 4th level spell, there, priestess
> girl. But instead, cast the realm spell version and not only affect what
> you wanted to, but the other 40,000 people in this province as well!" -
> some god to a follower

I don't know, I think this depends on what your interpretation of a realm spell
is. As I see it there are two possible interpretations here. Realm spells are
either 10th level spells (or 8th level spells in the case of priests, I
suppose) or they are jacked up versions of lower level spells.

Personally, I'm inclined towards the latter interpretation. Here are my
arguments:

1. Time: It takes a month to cast a realm spell. Theoretically, a character
could simply memorize and cast the lower level version of the spell a few dozen
times and get pretty close to the same result. Take the Legion of Dead spell.
A character able to use that spell would be able to create a like number of
skeletons/zombies in the same 30 day period just by casting the regular version
of the spell dozens of times.

2. The use the Character Level as a means of determining the ability to cast a
realm spell: If realm spells were 10th (8th) level spells, then characters
would supposedly have to max out in their experience level before casting them
wouldn't they? A first level priest/regent would have access to a Bless Army
spell at all.

So I think the ability to cast the "normal" version of the spell means a
character should have the ability to cast the realm version. The ability to
cast a realm spell to me is just spell casting ability+a
bloodline+RPs+GPs+Source/Temple holding.

Which brings to light a situation regarding wizard realm spells. What if the
character was unable to cast the "lesser" version of a realm spell? Do you
think a wizard should be allowed to learn and cast the Dispel Realm Magic spell
if s/he does not understand Dispel Magic spell?

I don't think so myself. I have a house rule that says if you don't understand
a lower level version of a spell you can't learn the higher level version. A
character who knows Bigby's Gentle Handshake, but doesn't understand Bigby's
Slapping Hand can't learn Bigby's Crushing Grip of Death, for instance.

This could, of course, lead to some problems later on. What if a character
finds the spells out of order, or cannot learn a lower level version due to the
max spells/level intelligence limit? Frankly, this hasn't happened yet, and
I'd be inclined to let it slide. I'd automatically let a wizard learn a lower
level version of a spell or just say that the inability to learn a new lower
level spell has no effect on knowing the higher level version.

Does this stuff sound OK to you folks, or should I take up finger painting as a
hobby instead of role-playing?

- -Gary

[Brett Lang]

I agree with beniamen (see below). It seems unreasonable to me that a diety
would allow such spells to his followers. If one takes into account the
requirements for a priest to be granted a QUEST spell, allowing a priest
access to a REALM spell, when he has only minor access (and assunming a
QUEST spell is an 8th level cleric spell, and a REALM spell is say 9th level
clerical magic), seems rather unjustified (to me anyway).

Of course, if the god decided the situation warranted the bestowal of the
spell it would happen anyway (but this would have to be an ethos shaking
event from the dieties point of view).

In my own campaign, a priest must have major access to a sphere to be able
to cast REALM spells from that sphere. Personally I think that TSR should
include this rule option/change in its new hardcover rules release.

Anyway that my thoughts on the subject.

Sweet water and light laughter until next.
Warlock.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Benjamin W Loebick
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Thursday, 30 April 1998 5:17
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Priest Realm Spells and minor access to spheres.


>
>On Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:18:18 +0930 darkstar writes:
>>This is a question that has had me wondering for the past hour so I
>>thought I would ask everyone else for their opinion.
>>
>>1. Should a priest who has minor access to a sphere (eg Haelyn &
>>Nercomatic) be allowed to cast realm spells in that Sphere (eg Legion
>>of
>>dead). Another example is priests of Avani with minor access to
>>creation
>>and the maintain armies realm spell.
>>
>>Also if you think that minor access to a sphere allows the realm
>>spells
>>to be cast then should only the lower level realm spell be avalible.
>>This would mean that Maintain Armies which requires a level 2 caster
>>can
>>be cast by priests of Avani but Legion of Dead which requires a level
>>5
>>caster can not be cast by priests of Haelyn?
>>
>>So what does everyone think?
>>
>>--
>>Ian Hoskins
>
>Well, hmmm. Very good question. In my esteemed, valued and highly
>learned view (read: ignorant opinion;), I say minor access does not allow
>realm spells of that sphere. Why? Well, if the god has decided that the
>priesthood cannot cast powerful normal spells from that sphere, then why
>would it be OK to suddenly cast massively huge powerful spells that
>affect an entire province from that sphere? It just doesn't make sense.
>
>"Oh, I'm sorry, you can't cast that 4th level spell, there, priestess
>girl. But instead, cast the realm spell version and not only affect what
>you wanted to, but the other 40,000 people in this province as well!" -
>some god to a follower
>
>Just doesn't make a lot of sense, eh?
>
>Benjamin
>
>__________________________________________________ ___________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
>Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
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>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[Gary V. Foss]

Brett Lang wrote:

> I agree with beniamen (see below). It seems unreasonable to me that a diety
> would allow such spells to his followers. If one takes into account the
> requirements for a priest to be granted a QUEST spell, allowing a priest
> access to a REALM spell, when he has only minor access (and assunming a
> QUEST spell is an 8th level cleric spell, and a REALM spell is say 9th level
> clerical magic), seems rather unjustified (to me anyway).

Man, this whole level-this, level-that thing makes this really confusing. I'm
going to try a couple of abbreviations here, OK? CL=Character level. SL=Spell
level.

If a priest has minor access to a sphere s/he can cast spells up to 3rd SL
right? Priests gain 4th SL spells at 7th CL, so a priest with minor access to a
sphere should be able to cast realm spells that are listed as having a CL of 6th
or less.

In the example you gave above, the priest with minor access to the
Enchantment/Charm sphere could not cast the Quest realm spell as it is listed as
requiring a CL of 9th.

- -Gary

[KirbyRanma]

In a message dated 98-04-29 11:38:54 EDT, you write:

"Should a priest who has minor access to a sphere (eg Haelyn & Nercomatic) be
allowed to cast realm spells in that Sphere (eg Legion of dead). Another
example is priests of Avani with minor access to creation and the maintain
armies realm spell."

I would say yes, IF the priest is part of a temple that would be allow
him/her to cast that spell and if the realm spell is a priest spell. In other
words, if it's a 0 level holding, then no, but if it's like 3rd or 4th, then
all 1st & 3rd "level" realm spells could be cast. Does this make sense? Also
of note/opinion. I think a PALADIN would only be able to cast realm spells
one he/she reached 9th level (when Paladins are able to cast spells). Now, I
don't have the rule book, so if my thoughts are going against the rules, don't
flame me and send me off to Azrai!

Take care all,
Kirby

[Trankel Al Ker]

At 09:26 PM 29/04/98 -0700, Gary V. Foss wrote:
>Brett Lang wrote:
>
>> I agree with beniamen (see below). It seems unreasonable to me that a diety
>> would allow such spells to his followers. If one takes into account the
>> requirements for a priest to be granted a QUEST spell, allowing a priest
>> access to a REALM spell, when he has only minor access (and assunming a
>> QUEST spell is an 8th level cleric spell, and a REALM spell is say 9th
level
>> clerical magic), seems rather unjustified (to me anyway).
>
>Man, this whole level-this, level-that thing makes this really confusing.
I'm
>going to try a couple of abbreviations here, OK? CL=Character level.
SL=Spell
>level.
>
>If a priest has minor access to a sphere s/he can cast spells up to 3rd SL
>right? Priests gain 4th SL spells at 7th CL, so a priest with minor
access to a
>sphere should be able to cast realm spells that are listed as having a CL
of 6th
>or less.
>
>In the example you gave above, the priest with minor access to the
>Enchantment/Charm sphere could not cast the Quest realm spell as it is
listed as
>requiring a CL of 9th.
>
Well, actually, I would say that the Realm Spells are spells granted by the
land and by the bloodline. So, in my campain, you can cast it, not only
because you're a priest, but also because you hold a bloodline. And that
bloodline makes you to cast spells that in other worlds would seem like if
they were 10th level, or so... =P

Well, please excuse my writing, but actually I'm from a Spanish's speaking
country...

Regards....
Trankel Al Ker
Lord of the Brotherhood of the Black Tulipan

[breye@earthlink.net]

darkstar wrote:

> 1. Should a priest who has minor access to a sphere (eg Haelyn &
> Nercomatic) be allowed to cast realm spells in that Sphere (eg Legion of
> dead). Another example is priests of Avani with minor access to creation and
> the maintain armies realm spell.

I was initailly thinking that Minor access was not enough to allow the casting
of a realm spell,but I do like the option below about not disallowing the realm
spells, just limiting which ones...

> Also if you think that minor access to a sphere allows the realm spells
> to be cast then should only the lower level realm spell be avalible.
> This would mean that Maintain Armies which requires a level 2 caster can
> be cast by priests of Avani but Legion of Dead which requires a level 5
> caster can not be cast by priests of Haelyn?
>
> So what does everyone think?

So yes, I think that minor access should allow the casting of realm spells
which require anything above a 5th level caster (the level which you can cast 3
level spells...)

Bryan

- --
Don't shoot my Sunday joyride down.
- -Wesley Willis