Destroy Holdings

[John]

> I dealt with something similar in my campign, only more about the time
> taken to reduce a holding one level. Basically what I said was that it
> would take a while (up to a week or one war move) to reduce a holding
> level. This means that it would not be possible to run into a province,
> destory the holdings and the withdraw, without the defenders in other
> provinces being given the opportunity to come after you.
> Anyway basically I said something similar.
> Law holdings represnt city watch, rangers etc and simply buring down
> their watchhouse or killing off the chief guy would not be enough. For
> example if some guy went down the road today and burned down the police
> headquarters in the city here and then went off and killed the police
> chief it would not mean and end to the law in the city, the other police
> stations would still operate and the law and police would still be
> there.
> Temple holding represent more the faith of the people in the regent and
> what he preaches than the the temple itself. Kill the temple and a
> couple of high priests and that does not stop the temple from operating.
> The priests would still preach and the religion would still have its
> followers (very angry and annoyed followers).
> Much the same with Guild Holdings, question mark over sources holdings
> though.
> I would say to reduce a holding you would have to declare war on the
> provinces and reduce the holding by running around with your soldiers
> and arresting or driving away all the law officers, priests or guild
> officials.

In Chris's PbeM my first action as ruler of Taeghas following a
massive popular uprising against the Avanese 'occupation' was to
coordinate my armed forces to storm and sieze all of Darien Avan and
Aeric Boeruine's law holdings and arrest all those within. My men
then took over the running of those holdings. Perfect
storm-and-capture stuff which was over within a day. Of course, it
takes time to plan and organise that kind of action so I'd go along
with a timescale of at least a week, possibly more if it's something
really big that needs doing.

John "We will fight them in the watch-houses" Rickards


"Once I was a lamb, playing in a green field. Then
the wolves came. Now I am an eagle and I fly in a
different universe."
"And now you kill the lambs," whispered Dardalion.
"No, priest. No one pays for lambs."
- David Gemmel, Waylander

[John]

> > In Chris's PbeM my first action as ruler of Taeghas following a
> > massive popular uprising against the Avanese 'occupation' was to
> > coordinate my armed forces to storm and sieze all of Darien Avan and
> > Aeric Boeruine's law holdings and arrest all those within. My men
> > then took over the running of those holdings. Perfect
> > storm-and-capture stuff which was over within a day. Of course, it
> > takes time to plan and organise that kind of action so I'd go along
> > with a timescale of at least a week, possibly more if it's something
> > really big that needs doing.
>
> Sound like just the sort of thing to bring about a removal of the good
> count of Taeghas by Prince Avan.

Oh, he was very put out by the whole thing. In the end, I pointed out
that Harald Khorien was alive and well and heading for Avanil. And
that any attempt to win back Taeghas with his armies (which were, and
lets be honest, a damn sight bigger and better than my own) would end
in rivers of blood (OK, Taeghan blood, but all the same...) in a kind
of Cerilian 'Nam or Afghanistan, he put that plan on hold. Once all
was said and done, and it turned out that the stuff he didn't like
couldn't be undone, we got on swimmingly. Remarkably good friends,
all things considered.
"Darien Avan simply has to be the Teflon Prince" - as I recall.

Of course, if it'd been one of my tabletop games and one of my
players had tried something similar (which has happened, curiously
enough) then Mr Avan would soon set about the upstart with all the
power at his command. And did, too, I might add. With a big sharp
stick.

;-)
John.

"Once I was a lamb, playing in a green field. Then
the wolves came. Now I am an eagle and I fly in a
different universe."
"And now you kill the lambs," whispered Dardalion.
"No, priest. No one pays for lambs."
- David Gemmel, Waylander

[The Olesen`s]

I have an interesting idea for a challenge to my PC regents. Could a
holding be destroyed without using military force (as in war card
troops) and without contesting it down?

I think this would be more of an espionage or adventure action for a
regent. Setting fire to the holdings and killing important people who
are involved with the holding (leader of an individual Endier guild
holding in Caerwil for example) might work. Kind of a smaller, more
effecient, and more dicreet form of ocupying and destroying holdings?




Background:
A pirate will come to Ilien/Medeore (My regent united them into one
domain) and try to take over some law holdings and pirtate the ships
running trade routes for Ilien (that is the combined domain's name) and
its allies. The Fighter pirate (masela 23) will be aided by some other
regent who already has an icy relationship with Ilien (Diemed, Endier,
all nearby guilds [my guildmaster PC will not make allies, that is
another thing for later] would qualify).

Expected PC course of Actions:
1)eliminate pirate law holdings in domain
2) defeat most of pirate fleet
3) a nice, up close and personal ship to ship battle. Bucaneer (sp)
style fight; climbing all over the ship, worring about falling into the
sea, etc.

[jake.cotter@utoronto.c]

> I have an interesting idea for a challenge to my PC regents. Could a
> holding be destroyed without using military force (as in war card
> troops) and without contesting it down?
>
> I think this would be more of an espionage or adventure action for a
> regent. Setting fire to the holdings and killing important people who
> are involved with the holding (leader of an individual Endier guild
> holding in Caerwil for example) might work. Kind of a smaller, more
> effecient, and more dicreet form of ocupying and destroying holdings?

Remember, a regent's blood ties him to his holdings. Kill him, and his
holdings pass to his heir. You can destroy source holdings, but burning
down warehouses/temples/palaces doesn't do much on a case per case basis.
The merchant will have more warehouses, the people will still pray, and
the ruler will still rule. Only if you deal with the _whole_ holding can
you destroy it, but then that's a "Contest" action, isn't it?

[darkstar]

jake.cotter@utoronto.ca wrote:

> > I think this would be more of an espionage or adventure action for a
> > regent. Setting fire to the holdings and killing important people who
> > are involved with the holding (leader of an individual Endier guild
> > holding in Caerwil for example) might work. Kind of a smaller, more
> > effecient, and more dicreet form of ocupying and destroying holdings?
>
> Remember, a regent's blood ties him to his holdings. Kill him, and his
> holdings pass to his heir. You can destroy source holdings, but burning
> down warehouses/temples/palaces doesn't do much on a case per case basis.
> The merchant will have more warehouses, the people will still pray, and
> the ruler will still rule. Only if you deal with the _whole_ holding can
> you destroy it, but then that's a "Contest" action, isn't it?

I dealt with something similar in my campign, only more about the time
taken to reduce a holding one level. Basically what I said was that it
would take a while (up to a week or one war move) to reduce a holding
level. This means that it would not be possible to run into a province,
destory the holdings and the withdraw, without the defenders in other
provinces being given the opportunity to come after you.
Anyway basically I said something similar.
Law holdings represnt city watch, rangers etc and simply buring down
their watchhouse or killing off the chief guy would not be enough. For
example if some guy went down the road today and burned down the police
headquarters in the city here and then went off and killed the police
chief it would not mean and end to the law in the city, the other police
stations would still operate and the law and police would still be
there.
Temple holding represent more the faith of the people in the regent and
what he preaches than the the temple itself. Kill the temple and a
couple of high priests and that does not stop the temple from operating.
The priests would still preach and the religion would still have its
followers (very angry and annoyed followers).
Much the same with Guild Holdings, question mark over sources holdings
though.
I would say to reduce a holding you would have to declare war on the
provinces and reduce the holding by running around with your soldiers
and arresting or driving away all the law officers, priests or guild
officials.

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://darkstar.cyberserv.com
ICQ: 2938300

[Pieter A de Jong]

At 02:58 AM 5/5/98 +0930, Ian Hoskins wrote:
>jake.cotter@utoronto.ca wrote:
>
>> > I think this would be more of an espionage or adventure action for a
>> > regent. Setting fire to the holdings and killing important people who
>> > are involved with the holding (leader of an individual Endier guild
>> > holding in Caerwil for example) might work. Kind of a smaller, more
>> > effecient, and more dicreet form of ocupying and destroying holdings?
>>
>> Remember, a regent's blood ties him to his holdings. Kill him, and his
>> holdings pass to his heir. You can destroy source holdings, but burning
>> down warehouses/temples/palaces doesn't do much on a case per case basis.
>> The merchant will have more warehouses, the people will still pray, and
>> the ruler will still rule. Only if you deal with the _whole_ holding can
>> you destroy it, but then that's a "Contest" action, isn't it?
>
>I dealt with something similar in my campign, only more about the time
>taken to reduce a holding one level. Basically what I said was that it
>would take a while (up to a week or one war move) to reduce a holding
>level. This means that it would not be possible to run into a province,
>destory the holdings and the withdraw, without the defenders in other
>provinces being given the opportunity to come after you.
>Anyway basically I said something similar.
>Law holdings represnt city watch, rangers etc and simply buring down
>their watchhouse or killing off the chief guy would not be enough. For
>example if some guy went down the road today and burned down the police
>headquarters in the city here and then went off and killed the police
>chief it would not mean and end to the law in the city, the other police
>stations would still operate and the law and police would still be
>there.
>Temple holding represent more the faith of the people in the regent and
>what he preaches than the the temple itself. Kill the temple and a
>couple of high priests and that does not stop the temple from operating.
>The priests would still preach and the religion would still have its
>followers (very angry and annoyed followers).
>Much the same with Guild Holdings, question mark over sources holdings
>though.
>I would say to reduce a holding you would have to declare war on the
>provinces and reduce the holding by running around with your soldiers
>and arresting or driving away all the law officers, priests or guild
>officials.
>
>--
I am not sure that I agree with Ian's comments about this issue. I feel
while they have some value for large holdings, for smaller ones the
elimination of key individuals and constructions in the holding would be
enough to damage (and even destroy) them. For example a guild holding 2 in
an agricultural province might consist of owning the only local mill and
using that as a central collection system for the farmers grain production.
The destruction of that mill will seriously inconvenience the local guild.
If the millwright and other local guild representatives are killed, the
guild will literally have to start rebuilding in that area from scratch. It
is very possible that by eleminating specific individuals that a
law/guild/temple holding could be reduced.

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Sun, 3 May 1998, The Olesen's wrote:

> I have an interesting idea for a challenge to my PC regents. Could a
> holding be destroyed without using military force (as in war card
> troops) and without contesting it down?
>
> I think this would be more of an espionage or adventure action for a
> regent. Setting fire to the holdings and killing important people who
> are involved with the holding (leader of an individual Endier guild
> holding in Caerwil for example) might work. Kind of a smaller, more
> effecient, and more dicreet form of ocupying and destroying holdings?

This is something that I would allow PC's or NPC's with a Covert Law or
Cover Guild holding to do. See "Create Covert Holdings" under "Domain
Actions" on one of the BR Netbooks.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[darkstar]

John wrote:

> In Chris's PbeM my first action as ruler of Taeghas following a
> massive popular uprising against the Avanese 'occupation' was to
> coordinate my armed forces to storm and sieze all of Darien Avan and
> Aeric Boeruine's law holdings and arrest all those within. My men
> then took over the running of those holdings. Perfect
> storm-and-capture stuff which was over within a day. Of course, it
> takes time to plan and organise that kind of action so I'd go along
> with a timescale of at least a week, possibly more if it's something
> really big that needs doing.

Sound like just the sort of thing to bring about a removal of the good
count of Taeghas by Prince Avan.

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://darkstar.cyberserv.com
ICQ: 2938300

[Tim Nutting]

> I have an interesting idea for a challenge to my PC regents. Could a
> holding be destroyed without using military force (as in war card
> troops) and without contesting it down?

I had this very discussion with a newer player to BR some time ago. As a
new regent he was unhappy with the influence of other organizations in his
lands. There was, in particular, another temple opposed to his. He told
me that he was going to burn down all their buildings and that would be the
end of that, oh, and do some loyalty purges while he was at it.

I asked him if he was gestapo material or not....

My answer was that no, destroying a temple would not destroy the holding,
because the holding could simply move "underground". I do not mean as in a
cave or some such, but more along the lines of the underground Christian
movements in the Soviet Union in the early '80s (I know, I just slammed the
RW and then turn right back to it )

In my mind destroying a temple, or even a guild, would cost tons of money
and some people, but would not change the beliefs of the individuals in any
way, except to make them more hostile to you for your persecution of them.
A holding is far more than a public building, it is the collection of
attitudes, beliefs and loyalties of those lower class individuals who serve
the regent in question.

Tim Nutting

[Alistair Young]

On Fri, 08 May 1998 02:14:35 +0930, in message ,
darkstar (== hoss)
praised Shub-Internet thus:

> John wrote:
>> In Chris's PbeM my first action as ruler of Taeghas following a
>> massive popular uprising against the Avanese 'occupation' was to
>> coordinate my armed forces to storm and sieze all of Darien Avan and
>> Aeric Boeruine's law holdings and arrest all those within. My men
>> then took over the running of those holdings. Perfect

> Sound like just the sort of thing to bring about a removal of the good
> count of Taeghas by Prince Avan.

Of course, as the count of Taeghas owns all the sources in Avanil,
this might not be all that good a policy on Prince Avan's part...

I learnt *that* the hard way. :)

Alistair

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