What is historical base for Brechts?

[irdeggman]

Based on the strong difference of opinions on this one - lets start a poll.

One thing to keep in mind is to not confuse the language equivalent with the cultural one. It is obvious that the Brecht language is closest to the Germanic ones, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the culture is.

IMO we also want to keep it relatively simple and not have to resort to historical equivalents that only history majors and those who frequently watch the History channel will know.

[Osprey]

I've always thought of the Brecht as a mixture of Hanseatic German and Renaissance Spain and Italy. The linguistic and base culture seems Germanic, but the individualism, martial styles (lightweight, fencing) seems strongly Italian and Spanish. And the mercantile aspect works well with all of these.

There's no need to point to one single culture and say "the Brechts are like these people." This is a fantasy world. Let the Brechts be their own people, and cite a few major sources of inspiration for their culture.
Osprey

[Benjamin]

I also tend to believe the Brechts are based upon the Hanseatic League, with a Renaissance flair. The styles of fighting are certainly of the Renaissance period. The Hanse were pretty much merchantile city-states, so the Brechts fit this perfectly. I say the similarities to Spain and Italy are coincidental, since the Hanse style was first, and then the others picked it up (or developed it independently) at a later date.

[irdeggman]

Now reference to Hanseatic German is one of those things that requires more than a casual knowledge of history - which is why I mentioned that earlier.

If the votes come out close then I'll just combine them {saying they are an amalgam), otherwise the possible combinations become mind boggling.

[Athos69]

My biggest reasoning for choosing the Hanseatic states of Germany is rooted in two things: First and foremost, the Hanse, while it was a loose coallition of city-states, the powers of these cities were very limited, and the majority of the power was in the hands of the merchants. If one city refused to play, it would be 'excluded', and would get poorer and poorer as trade passed it by. The Brecht League doesn't have absolute power in the hands of the landed nobility, as happens in Anuire, or the Khinasi lands. They *have* to work with the guilders to prosper.

The second reason is that the Hanseatic League has popped up in another game that is generally played by a number of people, and would therefore be familiar to them, as it is faithfully transplanted into a Sci-Fi setting. Yes, the Hanse are in the Battletech game as ship- based Periphery Traders who 'control' the worlds they trade with.

[RaspK_FOG]

I feel that they have a strong germanic influence, yet I will have to agree with Osprey in regard to the fencing fighting style they use, which is certainly non-german.

[Athos69]

I can actually address this one from a historical re-enactor's perspective.

Fencing got its start in Italy, during the Italian Ren period, then spread to Spain, and from those two locii began their northward spread. By the early 1560s, fencing was firmly established in France and the Low Countries, and withoin 20 years, there were distictive 'home-grown'styles being taught in England. It is not a far stretch to see the Baltic (notably the Hanse) using the 'arte of the dance' by that time as well.

Spain is not the only fencing region in history. In a comparison, the further north one got, the dirtier the fighting style, whereas in Spain, you had those who wouldn't *think* of using the basket hilt to rap a skull, punching or even trippping the opponent because it would be 'ungentlemanly'.

[Azulthar]

In light of keeping it easy on those who have a less than perfect knowledge of history (like me), I voted the Dutch. The Dutch were the typical seafaring traders, and their language is somewhat similar to German as well. That Hanseatic state-thing sounds better, but I didn't even know of them until I read this thread.

As for the fighting-style, well, is it really that important? You don't wear heavy platemail on a boat anyway, so if you have an image of the Brecht as seafaring-traders, you'll probably assume they have a light fighting style as well. No need to throw Spain into this just for the fighting style; their language is nothing alike, and my image of Spain is too sunny for Brecht :)

- Azulthar

[Don E]

I voted for the Dutch as I see Germany as a two broad a comparison when it is really just the Hanseatic League that strikes me as a close parallel. The rest of germany, and especially the Holy Roman Empire, seems closer to Anuire IMO.

[Osprey]

As for the fighting-style, well, is it really that important? You don't wear heavy platemail on a boat anyway, so if you have an image of the Brecht as seafaring-traders, you'll probably assume they have a light fighting style as well. No need to throw Spain into this just for the fighting style; their language is nothing alike, and my image of Spain is too sunny for Brecht


I think fighting style, armor preferences, etc. are important because they form a strong visual impression, especially for adventuring types (and thus PC character concepts and depictions). The Brecht don't just prefer light weapons and armor; they're famous for it. It's one of their most distinctive cultural trademarks I'd say.

Yes, it is a problem to mix Germanic and Italians and Dutch and Spanish cultures together, but after the reams of discussion and disagreement on the issue, it seems to me that this is exactly what happened when the Brecht were designed, though perhaps not by intention. Rather, I think Baker and Co. said "Germanic seafaring peoples, but heavily influenced by classic Renaissance stuff like fencing, poofy clothes, art, drama, etc." Brecht Renaissance playboys. :)

[ConjurerDragon]

Don E schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

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>

> Don E wrote:

> I voted for the Dutch as I see Germany as a two broad a comparison when it is really just the Hanseatic League that strikes me as a close parallel. The rest of germany, and especially the Holy Roman Empire, seems closer to Anuire IMO.

>

Don´t forget that the Netherlands were itself part of that empire for

quite a time until Alba failed to quell that rebellion ;-)

bye

Michael

[Arjan]

if i remember right it was based on german AND Holland arrond approx 1600.
Especially on the VOC (united east-indian company) where merchants ruled the seas and were responsible for the well fare.

Arjan

[geeman]

Various European societies have been suggested to describe the Brecht for

quite a while.... I wonder if it might make sense to draw a distinction

when it comes to the culture and outlook of the Brecht. That is, I think

the comparisons to some of the Italian or other southern European

cultures/periods are apt, but it seems that those comparisons are apt when

viewed from a more economic standpoint rather than cultural one. Of

course, economics have a significant influence upon culture, and in some

ways economics and culture overlap or interact, but what I see as the most

likely comparison to certain non-Germanic society is really more of a

philosophical outlook regarding industry and commerce, or a generalized

emphasis upon trade, rather than a culture per se.



If one were to remove the economic and trade orientation of several of the

cultures that have been used to describe the Brecht, and just consider the

cultures themselves does it still work as well?



Gary

[graham anderson]

There is a lot of support behind the dutch and germans ie the hensiatic league who the brechts were based upon according to the atlas. I dont think that italy or spain are nearly as close a match as the league. One of the arguments people make for italy or spain is the style of fighting but at the time of the league that style was widespread in britain, germany and beyond. Fighting with lighter weapons is favoured when armour is not used ie on boats or when weapons make armour a liability.

I come from an island in the north sea that was controlled by the hensiatic league showing the strength of their trade around the north. More than a thousand boats used to come to the island each year now thats a merchant fleet.

The culture and balance of the brechts seams to me as very hensiatic which I don't find surpising as they were based on the league by the original designers.

[Osprey]

Fighting with lighter weapons is favoured when armour is not used ie on boats or when weapons make armour a liability.

Except that in Europe firearms were more responsible for making armor obsoletethan any other weapon,and firearms are noticably absent from the Birthright world.

On the other hand, a culture based around seafaring is a much better argument for the Brechts favoring light armor and weapons. Seems odd that they wouldn't be better archers, though...

Osprey

[Osprey]

Another thought has occured to me: it shouldn't take a history major to know something about the Hanseatic League. They were a massively extensive and powerful group in northern Europe (most of northern Europe at their peak). This should only need a basic student of European history, and failing that, maybe we'll inspire a few people to go read about the Hanseatic League after reading that the Brechts were based upon them. :)

[graham anderson]

I know a little about the hensiatic league as I said the island I grew up on was once contolled by it. I have read books and my cousin did some research on it during his history degree. They are very similar to the brechts.

The brecht don't need archery they have crossbows much more effective and usefull on the type of ships they use.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by geeman@Jun 25 2004, 06:50 PM

If one were to remove the economic and trade orientation of several of the

cultures that have been used to describe the Brecht, and just consider the

cultures themselves does it still work as well?



Gary


Removing the trade aspects of Brecht culture? You are not serious are you? I mean that is what the culture revolves around and is the single most core function of it. They are sea faring race becasue of their desire to trade not because of exploration or conquest (the other two reasons a culture develops sea travel).

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Jun 25 2004, 10:46 PM
Another thought has occured to me: it shouldn't take a history major to know something about the Hanseatic League. They were a massively extensive and powerful group in northern Europe (most of northern Europe at their peak). This should only need a basic student of European history, and failing that, maybe we'll inspire a few people to go read about the Hanseatic League after reading that the Brechts were based upon them. :)
I have to again caution on using what the average person doesn't know as the basis for choosing the Hanseatic league. Here are 2 posts that reflect the same knowledge level as I have of them. Basically we hadn't heard of them until they were brought up on these boards. When I (and I believe most non-history saavy people or those from the region in question) think of germans we don't think of sea faring merchants, we think in terms of technologically saavy conquest oriented cultures. Since we are dealing with stereo types in the first place and trying to give an idea of a culture based on a sound bite sized description it is rather a stretch to go this path, IMO.

Remember we also want to attract more people to BR and if we insert something that causes more confusion than explanation or requires people to do some supplemental reading, this becomes counter productive. I abstained on this vote because I'm not as passionate as others on this subject and I can always insert 'my take' to my players during introduction of the game.



Regardless of how many reams of paper support the ideas, the issue at hand is that we're dealing with stereotypes if we're going to reduce cultural comparisons to one sentence. The number of trading consulates maintained by Aragon in the Rennaissance is not generally well known, thanks to games like Civilzation and countless others you say Dutch, they think seafaring traders. Similarly, you say Spain and people think of Cortez, or El Cid, or Galleons (which Anuire has, not the Brecht), or the inquisition. If you say Ancient Egyptian people think of bare-chested Pharaohs with linen-skirts and a very tall headdress/crown (and an ankh). If you say Arabs, or Arabian Nights on the other hand, people will bring the mental imagery that is supported by the artwork in Cities of the Sun and elsewhere.

For people who don't have the time to do intensive comparitive historical research, the one sentence approach needs to be used. After all, thats how the Campaign was designed. Have a look at Rich Baker's original forward in the original Atlas of Cerilia. Second paragraph. Second sentence. As soon as you read that sentence you should know exactly what two human groups he's refering to. Our cultural equivalents need to be the same way: as soon as you read it you need to know what we're talking about.

--------------------
Bearcat



In light of keeping it easy on those who have a less than perfect knowledge of history (like me), I voted the Dutch. The Dutch were the typical seafaring traders, and their language is somewhat similar to German as well. That Hanseatic state-thing sounds better, but I didn't even know of them until I read this thread.

As for the fighting-style, well, is it really that important? You don't wear heavy platemail on a boat anyway, so if you have an image of the Brecht as seafaring-traders, you'll probably assume they have a light fighting style as well. No need to throw Spain into this just for the fighting style; their language is nothing alike, and my image of Spain is too sunny for Brecht

- Azulthar

[geeman]

At 12:38 PM 6/26/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



> Removing the trade aspects of Brecht culture? You are not serious are

> you? I mean that is what the culture revolves around and is the single

> most core function of it. They are sea faring race becasue of their

> desire to trade not because of exploration or conquest (the other two

> reasons a culture develops sea travel).



No, no. Don`t remove the trade aspect of the Brecht. Remove the trade

aspects of the cultures being described as the basis of Brecht

culture. Are they still as apt in describing them? It`s a thought

experiment for the purpose of determining what the actual social/cultural

basis for the BR race is, not at attempt to redefine that race.



Trade and commerce based on seafaring is definitively Brecht, but it is not

necessarily definitively Spanish or Italian (or Dutch, for that matter,

really.) Spanish and Italian cultures "look Brecht" if one views them in

the period in which they were sea powers, and heavily reliant upon their

colonial empires. However, if one removes that aspect of their culture I

don`t think the Brecht have very much in common with them.



Fighting styles are also a commonality to a certain extent, but as has been

pointed out the lighter weapons and lack of armor that the Brecht use is

something of an anachronistic interpretation since that was more directly

related to gunpowder than it is to being a seafaring culture.



Gary

[Beruin]

On the whole I believe the Dutch are more fitting as a historical source for the Brechts than the Hanseatic League (HL). The HL was not really a union of states, but a loose association of trading cities. When they worked together they could be quite powerful (once won a war against the Kingdom of Denmark), but more often than not they couldn`t agree on political issues or squabbled among themselves. These cities never ruled a great amount of territory, if at all but controlled a large part of the trade in Northern Europe.



In Brechtür, the guilders are important, but their nations are still ruled by nobles. The cities of the HL, in contrast, were generally governed by a Mayor and a city council made up of the most influential citizens (rich traders). The Netherlands were officially a republic, but nobles nevertheless remained influential. The Dutch also won their indepence in a war against a Southern Empire (Spain), another similarity to the Brecht who won their indepence against Anuire.



Two additional notes:



irdeggman wrote:

>>When I (and I believe most non-history saavy people or those from the region in question) think of germans we don`t think of sea faring merchants, we think in terms of technologically saavy conquest oriented cultures.<<



I guess the notion of Germans as a militaristic, technology-orientated culture is based on late 19th and early 20th Century Germany, from about 1870-1945. This makes this stereotype kind of useless, if you do not want to re-create WW1 or WW2 in Cerilia.





For those interested in the HL, try to find a copy of the computer game Patrician 2. That`s a German game, originally titled Patrizier2, a complicated trade simulation, that captures the flair of the Hanseatic League quite well. The english version was once reviewed in the comic Knights of the Dinner Table, but maybe hard to find

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Beruin@Jun 27 2004, 05:40 PM
Two additional notes:



irdeggman wrote:

>>When I (and I believe most non-history saavy people or those from the region in question) think of germans we don`t think of sea faring merchants, we think in terms of technologically saavy conquest oriented cultures.<<



I guess the notion of Germans as a militaristic, technology-orientated culture is based on late 19th and early 20th Century Germany, from about 1870-1945. This makes this stereotype kind of useless, if you do not want to re-create WW1 or WW2 in Cerilia.





For those interested in the HL, try to find a copy of the computer game Patrician 2. That`s a German game, originally titled Patrizier2, a complicated trade simulation, that captures the flair of the Hanseatic League quite well. The english version was once reviewed in the comic Knights of the Dinner Table, but maybe hard to find


It might be useless, but as I was pointing out since we are dealing with stereo types here, it is what the unenlightened masses have for a preconception of german history. Like picturing mongels with the &#39;fu-manchu&#39; mustaches.

Again refering to hard-to-find games (from Germany) and articles as points of reference also aids in my argument of how difficult it would be for the masses to grasp the concept of the Hanseatic league period of history.

[the Falcon]

From looking at the origins of the authors of several posts on this topic, I get the impression that posters who are located in either the Netherlands or Germany generally both seem to be in favor of modelling the Brechts after the Dutch.
Isn&#39;t that telling? :)

[Beruin]

the Falcon wrote:

>>From looking at the origins of the authors of several posts on this topic, I get the impression that posters who are located in either the Netherlands or Germany generally both seem to be in favor of modelling the Brechts after the Dutch.Isn`t that telling? :)<<



As in soccer, the Netherlands seem to be more successful than Germany this year (BtW, congrats and good luck for the rest of the European championship). But let`s wait for 2006. Maybe by then, the unenlightened masses know enough about the Hanseatic League to make it a valid rolemodel and Germany will fare better in the world championship ;-)



irdeggman wrote:

>>It might be useless, but as I was pointing out since we are dealing with stereo types here, it is what the unenlightened masses have for a preconception of german history. Like picturing mongels with the `fu-manchu` mustaches.Again refering to hard-to-find games (from Germany) and articles as points of reference also aids in my argument of how difficult it would be for the masses to grasp the concept of the Hanseatic league period of history.<<



Well, the rest of my post supported your argument, but as a German I couldn`t resist commenting on your German stereotype. So any beardless Mongols on this list? ;-)

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Beruin@Jun 28 2004, 10:10 AM
Well, the rest of my post supported your argument, but as a German I couldn`t resist commenting on your German stereotype. So any beardless Mongols on this list? ;-)


Yup. That&#39;s why I&#39;ve always insisted it was a stereo type and no where near an accurate portrayal.


Shoot there are probably not that many people that could reasonable discuss the riots and burning of Detroit (MI, USA) in 1967 and why when the riots and fires of 1968 spread throughout the rest of the US that Detroit did not have any in that year (or none that amounted to anything).

Local history yields much greater detail and knowledge.

[ConjurerDragon]

Christoph Tiemann schrieb:



>the Falcon wrote:

> >>From looking at the origins of the authors of several posts on this topic, I get the impression that posters who are located in either the Netherlands or Germany generally both seem to be in favor of modelling the Brechts after the Dutch.Isn`t that telling? :)<<

>

>As in soccer, the Netherlands seem to be more successful than Germany this year (BtW, congrats and good luck for the rest of the European championship).

>

Grml... :-(

Good that I don´t care about Fußball in the least, lest I might be upset...



> But let`s wait for 2006. Maybe by then, the unenlightened masses know enough about the Hanseatic League to make it a valid rolemodel and Germany will fare better in the world championship ;-)

>

Being german myself I want to point out that the Hanseatic league is not

equivalent to germany or consists only of german cities - certainly

Hamburg or Bremen were important but many cities outside (even the then

larger) germany were members. Riga to name one as far as I remember. So

even the original note of "german traders" is not the same as using the

Hanseatic league as model for the Brecht. In that light even the dutch

could be seen as "german traders" as they were part of the holy roman

empire of german nation - Mmm, in that light germany might still win the

championship ;-)

bye

Michael

************************************



>irdeggman wrote:

>

>

>>>It might be useless, but as I was pointing out since we are dealing with stereo types here, it is what the unenlightened masses have for a preconception of german history. Like picturing mongels with the `fu-manchu` mustaches.Again refering to hard-to-find games (from Germany) and articles as points of reference also aids in my argument of how difficult it would be for the masses to grasp the concept of the Hanseatic league period of history.<<

>>>

>>>

>Well, the rest of my post supported your argument, but as a German I couldn`t resist commenting on your German stereotype. So any beardless Mongols on this list? ;-)

>

[Ariadne]

I think, it&#39;s based on Germany (look at the names ;) ), but I don&#39;t see a problem to base it on Holand too...

[ConjurerDragon]

Ariadne schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2702

>

> Ariadne wrote:

> I think, it`s based on Germany (look at the names ;) ), but I don`t see a problem to base it on Holand too...

>

>

Not Holand but the Netherlands. Holland is only one of their provinces.

And the names: Garmisch of Partenkirchen the Magician - Argh... If one

knows that Garmisch-Partenkirchen is a german town...

bye

Michael

[Sir Tiamat]

I would go for a combination of Dutch and Venice during their periods of supremacy. Both where Republics, both seafaring Nations, both had powerfull merchands and Nobles, and both have build their empires on trade.

Both lacked a military force on land because of defendible rivers and swamps. Like the Brecht have Mountains

For language look at the Dutch and for (fencing) culture at venice.

The German Hanseatic leage consisted of cities in the Netherlands and Belgium as well as in Germany. And there are few other reasons for Germany. Spain and Portugal where powerfull seafaring Nations, yet they where monarchies.

I think the republic is one of the most striking aspects of Brecht culture. More so if one bears in mind that republics where quite rare in medieval and renaisance Europe.

[the Falcon]

Originally posted by Sir Tiamat@Jul 6 2004, 08:37 PM
I would go for a combination of Dutch and Venice during their periods of supremacy. Both where Republics, both seafaring Nations, both had powerfull merchands and Nobles, and both have build their empires on trade.

Both lacked a military force on land because of defendible rivers and swamps. Like the Brecht have Mountains

And now both are in danger of being flooded. ;)

Oh, and you should see the local church tower here: it&#39;s almost as crooked as the tower of Pisa. Though I suppose that hasn&#39;t got anything to do directly with Venice. :P

[Athos69]

Hmmmm...

Brechts, crooked churches, almost &#39;fallen&#39; churches....

Sounds an awful lot like any Temple to Ela&#33; ;)

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by Athos69@Jul 7 2004, 10:08 PM
Hmmmm...

Brechts, crooked churches, almost &#39;fallen&#39; churches....

Sounds an awful lot like any Temple to Ela&#33; ;)
Or a temple dedicated to Kirche (an example for German roots ;) ). Kirche means "church" in German :D

Who wants to have his patron deity named "church"... ;)

[irdeggman]

Alright it is time to close this poll. Here are the results:

Spanish [ 2 ] [9.09%]
German [ 7 ] [31.82%]
Dutch [ 8 ] [36.36%]
Portaguese [ 0 ] [0.00%]
Other (specify) [ 4 ] [18.18%]
Abstain [ 1 ] [4.55%]
Total Votes: 22


There were a few comments on Other to make it Denmark or similar, but not enough consistency in the &#39;proposals&#39; to outpace German and Dutch (Holland).

It looks like it should be an amalgamation of The Dutch trade era and the Hanseatic League associated with Germany.