Temple Cooperation/Rivalry

[Kyle Foster]

Based on what I've read in the Book of Priestcraft and then my own
personal feelings, I agree that not all temples of the same diety are
neccesseraly freindly with one another.

It seems to me that the problems with the Church of Haylen seems to
have started after the fall of the Empire. As the EMpire lost power and
the focus of rule shifted away from the IC the Orthodox temple lost
power as well. Many of the churches began to see the practieces of the
Orthodox Temple as corrupt and to political. Thus they rebeled and
began to seek their own truths. The only group which seems to be
willing to cooperat with everyone is the Haylen's Aegis in the mhoried.
the Aegies was orignial the militant arm of the church which split of
from the main church when all the other problmes atarted. Accoriding to
the write up in the BOP the Aegis will even help other churches as long
as it is in the best intrest of Anuire.

The other religions are also flawed so if your players think that its
bad in Anuire soome of the Temples of Avani are nearly at war with each
other.

Kyle

[The Olesen`s]

I need a little help here. My players each rule parts of Dhoesone and
holdings through Dhoesone. On is a thief, one a priest of Haelyn, and
the last a 1/2 elf wizard. The thief, who has the most provinces,
decided to invade THurazor while the mage "subversioned" two of
Thurazor's units into attacking CAriele. Under the fassade of defending
Cariele, the thief lanched his attack. Amazingly they drove thier way
deep into Thurazor, taking all but the two southern provinces. The PC
priest (of Haelyn) seeked assistance from [the domain ruled by a Paladin
of Healyn, I'll call it bobland since i don't have any maps/books]
Bobland and asked it to be the Dhoesone regents' (the PCs) ally.
Bobland's regent said no becuase it needed no more allies (see Ruins o
Empire) and because the PC was a regent of a rival temple of Haelyn.

My PCs say that it is illogical, idiotic, and pointless that temples of
the same god are rivals.

I used up a lot of energy there. I gave examples of history when
Catholics and Prodosants fought. I compared it to Coke and Pepsi (god
is cola, the brands are diffrent faiths). I compared it to companies
that deal in the same product (just more generalized than above).

Anyone have anything to prove my point? History? Similies? ANYTHING?

My players accepted it as the DMs decision but I want to PROVE myself
right in thier minds.

[Robert Harper]

Sorry, checking resource materials I don't think you have much to back you up.

Ordinarily I think temples of the same god in any lawful or good faith would
be inclined to help each other (and the God would be verrrry displeased at
failure). Only inability of some sort would excuse this. Chaotic and evil
faiths might well follow a 'survival of the fittest/what's in it for me' policy.

Now according to the Book of Priestcraft, Haelyn's clergy are divided into a
number of regional factions. Haelyn's Bastion of Truth (the Dhoesone
faction) is isolated to the one province. Is "Bobland" Elinie? with the
Khinasi Paladin Regent? Whoever it is they would be of another faction - BoT
is isolated in Dhosesone. That raises some hope of 'factional' differences,
but not much.

If it is Elinie, they are of the Holy Order of Haelyn's Aegis, which favours
the Orthodox Imperial Temple (BoT being of the Northern Imperial Temple
group that opposes the Orthodoxists). However HO of HA is described as
believing that "questions of religious dogma pale somewhat in comparison to
the threat posed by the mighty armies of the Gorgon and others" and the Book
of Priestcraft goes on to say they willingly work with those whose personal
religious beliefs differ.

So this should not preclude help. In fact, if the Regent of BoT approached
Regent of another of Haelyn's factions for alliance and I were that regent
approached, I would veiw it as an ideal chance to draw the BoT into my ambit.

Haelyn being Lawful Good and having ethos of courage, justice and chivalry
also sort of seals it up - chickening out on helping another would not sit well.

At 07:58 PM 6/14/98 -0400, you wrote:

>snip<

>Bobland and asked it to be the Dhoesone regents' (the PCs) ally.
>Bobland's regent said no becuase it needed no more allies (see Ruins o
>Empire) and because the PC was a regent of a rival temple of Haelyn.
>
>My PCs say that it is illogical, idiotic, and pointless that temples of
>the same god are rivals.
>
>I used up a lot of energy there. I gave examples of history when
>Catholics and Prodosants fought. I compared it to Coke and Pepsi (god
>is cola, the brands are diffrent faiths). I compared it to companies
>that deal in the same product (just more generalized than above).
>
>Anyone have anything to prove my point? History? Similies? ANYTHING?
>
>My players accepted it as the DMs decision but I want to PROVE myself
>right in thier minds.

__________________________________________________ _________________
| |
| We ask ourselves if there is a God, how can this happen? |
| Better to ask, if there is a God, must it be sane? |
| |
| Lucien LaCroix |
|_________________________________________________ __________________|

[Brian Stoner]

There are many examples of churches of the same faith fighting with one
another. Your example of the Protestants vs. the Catholics is probably the
best (though the polytheism of Cerilia could make a difference, let us discount
that for now.) In the case of the divisions in the Christian Churches, there
were many reasons: cultural, theological, ethnic, economic. Remember too, the
followers and even priesthood of a faith is not necisserily pure and may be
motivated by something other than their god. And so, for centuries these two
parts of the Christian Faith were at each other's throats...fighting over
beliefs and so much more. Even today there is some distrust within some
circles. However, note that the two groups work much better today. Things
change. They remembered that they have a lot in common and use it as a
foundation to work together in many social and faith related efforts. Every
"real" religion on Earth has divisions and internal disputes, and because the
nature of faith is so important to the hearts of people, these disputes can
turn nasty. Even apparently little things, especially to outsiders, can cause
deep division. The faiths of Cerilia are no different. The followers of the
different gods may work together at times...yet at other times the followers of
just one of those gods may not even get along with themselves. The Book of
Priestcraft talks about the different denominations and why they chose
different roads. Some are merely due to location or serve special purposes.
Others were for political or economic reasons. And some were for reasons of
faith. If you don't have acces to the BoP, just keep in mind that there are
many differences.

Brian, aka Dearnen

The Olesen's wrote:

> I need a little help here. My players each rule parts of Dhoesone and
> holdings through Dhoesone. On is a thief, one a priest of Haelyn, and
> the last a 1/2 elf wizard. The thief, who has the most provinces,
> decided to invade THurazor while the mage "subversioned" two of
> Thurazor's units into attacking CAriele. Under the fassade of defending
> Cariele, the thief lanched his attack. Amazingly they drove thier way
> deep into Thurazor, taking all but the two southern provinces. The PC
> priest (of Haelyn) seeked assistance from [the domain ruled by a Paladin
> of Healyn, I'll call it bobland since i don't have any maps/books]
> Bobland and asked it to be the Dhoesone regents' (the PCs) ally.
> Bobland's regent said no becuase it needed no more allies (see Ruins o
> Empire) and because the PC was a regent of a rival temple of Haelyn.
>
> My PCs say that it is illogical, idiotic, and pointless that temples of
> the same god are rivals.
>
> I used up a lot of energy there. I gave examples of history when
> Catholics and Prodosants fought. I compared it to Coke and Pepsi (god
> is cola, the brands are diffrent faiths). I compared it to companies
> that deal in the same product (just more generalized than above).
>
> Anyone have anything to prove my point? History? Similies? ANYTHING?
>
> My players accepted it as the DMs decision but I want to PROVE myself
> right in thier minds.
> ************************************************** *************************
> >

[Samuel Weiss]

Geeze, aside from having so many hostorical precedents, how about pointing
out something as simple as they are lucky Talinie (Bobland) didn't intervene
when they saw how sucessful he was and seize some of the western province
before he could get to them. I sure as heck would have done so if I had been
Talinie regent. And would have had Talinie regent do so if any players were
being that lucky also.

Samwise

[James Ray]

Im assuming "Bobland" is actually Talinie, the Haelyn-devoted theocracy
next door to Thurazor.

It looks to me like the Regent of Talinie witheld her military aid because
the whole PC-led invasion of Thurazor seemed contrived. Maybe she knows it
was the 1/2 Elf that sent the Goblin units into Cariele so that the Thief
would have a pretext to invade Thurazor, so that the PC Priest could try to
manipulate her into joining in.
Remember - Haelyn is the god of "noble" war, and such subterfuge as your
PCs relied on to beat the Goblins of Thurazor might not seem very
courageous or noble. While Talinie may have plenty of reasons to see
Thurazor put out of the border-raiding business, they might not see a need
to help someone ELSE wipe them out, especially while there are still Rjurik
bandits and Five Peak Raiders for her to worry about. Maybe her ally,
Boeruine, wanted her not to assist, as the conflict may have widened to
include the nonhumans of the Five Peaks, and possibly even Avanil's forces.
Talinie may just be waiting for the PCs to have problems ruling over the
vanquished Goblins, and then make a move on the weakened provinces of
Thurazor while the PCs' forces are too busy to oppose hers. Most
importantly, if Talinie had helped in the fighting, there's no telling how
much of Thurazor the PCs would control right now, and I figure any
justification ought to be good enough to explain why she didnt.

James
- ----------
> From: The Olesen's
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Temple Cooperation/Rivalry
> Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 6:58 PM
>
> I need a little help here. My players each rule parts of Dhoesone and
> holdings through Dhoesone. On is a thief, one a priest of Haelyn, and
> the last a 1/2 elf wizard. The thief, who has the most provinces,
> decided to invade THurazor while the mage "subversioned" two of
> Thurazor's units into attacking CAriele. Under the fassade of defending
> Cariele, the thief lanched his attack. Amazingly they drove thier way
> deep into Thurazor, taking all but the two southern provinces. The PC
> priest (of Haelyn) seeked assistance from [the domain ruled by a Paladin
> of Healyn, I'll call it bobland since i don't have any maps/books]
> Bobland and asked it to be the Dhoesone regents' (the PCs) ally.
> Bobland's regent said no becuase it needed no more allies (see Ruins o
> Empire) and because the PC was a regent of a rival temple of Haelyn.

[James Ray]

Good to see you again, Samwise. I probably would have waited, though, let
the PCs forces get worn down a little before sending Talinie's forces into
the fray, in case the PCs objected to Talinie taking over the provinces.
Id like to hear more about the kind of trouble those PCs have ruling those
provinces, though. The Eyeless One may find this to be an opportunity of
monstrous proportions, and invade in support of the first Goblin uprising -
after placing a bunch of strategically placed Sources throughout the area.
Maybe then the PCs will REALLY need Talinie's help.

James

- ----------
> From: Samuel Weiss
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Temple Cooperation/Rivalry
> Date: Sunday, June 14, 1998 11:22 PM
>
> Geeze, aside from having so many hostorical precedents, how about
pointing
> out something as simple as they are lucky Talinie (Bobland) didn't
intervene
> when they saw how sucessful he was and seize some of the western province
> before he could get to them. I sure as heck would have done so if I had
been
> Talinie regent. And would have had Talinie regent do so if any players
were
> being that lucky also.
>
> Samwise
>
>
>
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[The Olesen`s]

James Ray wrote:
>
> Good to see you again, Samwise. I probably would have waited, though, let
> the PCs forces get worn down a little before sending Talinie's forces into
> the fray, in case the PCs objected to Talinie taking over the provinces.
> Id like to hear more about the kind of trouble those PCs have ruling those
> provinces, though. The Eyeless One may find this to be an opportunity of
> monstrous proportions, and invade in support of the first Goblin uprising -
> after placing a bunch of strategically placed Sources throughout the area.
> Maybe then the PCs will REALLY need Talinie's help.
>
> James


I doubt all this. They have been spending gold galore. I tried to stop
or weaken the PC's armies by throwing ten goblin infntry at them. THe
goblins were squished by knights and archers. Getting desperate I threw
a level 4 castle in Storm's Release and said that was the capital. Well
the PCs tried attacking it without artilerists (climbing over the walls
with irregulars and shooting with archers) and were (finally) squished.
That got my PC a little mad so he went and mustered four elite infantry
and the prist got out an atierists. With that they managed to take the
castle. They then moved the bulk of thier forces down to falling
timber so it could attack anoter province. I ten hit the castle with
two Undead Legions (Eyeless One, cost the goblin a fortune). Tey undead
took the castle but as soon as the armies left the province, the undead
moved out of the castle and hid in the town so they could ambush any
armies of the PC. The PCs went adventuring to look for king of THurazor
(investure) and left a thief to command the armies. They found the
castle abondoned after talking to a couple wolves (animal affinity) and
learning that a black cloaked person ad traveld up to te castle,
escorted by golbins carrying a lot of stuff. The PCs were convinced that
this was the king (actually it is te Eyeless One) but after checking out
the castle they decided that he had left. They traveld down to the
battleing provinces and took a peek at what was happening. I wasn't
feeling mean so I said both sides were still in the province and it was
contested (basically a waste of two weeks of war moves).

And with ruling goblin provinces, they don't indent to. The PCs intent
to pillage the provinces to level (0). They will then spilt it up
between themselves. But Thaiele, with Bourine's help, will take the two
western provinces of Thurazor while the PCs are trying to get a good
grip on them.

This is quite a mess.

[Samuel Weiss]

James Ray wrote:

> Good to see you again, Samwise. <

Thanks. I have been lurking, waiting for something I felt I could comment on
at elast semi-intelligently. Hopefully I managaed that.
As for your late entry to take advantage, I might go with that, but it seems
a bit too sneaky for a LG type like the ruler of Talinie. Now "intervening
to restore order", that manages to keep head above water in the venality
ocean I think. Still, either way.

The Oleson's replied:

>They have been spending gold galore.<

With details snipped.
My question, where the heck did they get all this gold? IIRC, Dhoesone is a
collection of level 1 & 2 provinces mostly, which have very low income
potential. Now granted, assuming they are a cabal running the whole realm,
and assuming they have gotten rid of all other regents in the realm, I still
don't see where they would get the money for the kind of armies you are
talking about. And if they did, perhaps you should have thrown 20 or even 30
goblin infantry and wolfriders at them.
BTW, what kind of penalties did their knights and archers get fighting in
the depthes of the Aelvinwode? Unlees they were using purely Elven troops
(hah, right), the knights could never charge, and longbow formations like
the Anuireans use would be at a major disadvantage. Not to mention how
Undead Legions should have torn a nice gaping hole in their army. Didn't any
Rjurik nations want to take advantage of this? Heck, didn't any of the
northern traders with rulebook holdings in Thurazor oppose this grand
takeover, guaranteed to kick them out and let the PCs in?
Finally, what alignment are the PC regents that genocide won't severely
damage their bloodlines through alignment vioaltion backlash?
I think if you really want to slow down, or even stop these people cold, you
could do so quite easily without stretching the bounds of history or game
believability.

Samwise

[DavTyr@aol.co]

The current standing of the catholic church, there are many denominations, All
listening to the pope, AlLL believing in the father, son & the holy spirit,
But ALL still different in their view of what the church should become. These
factions almost never openly disagree, But if one wanted to do something that
another faction didn't agree with they certainly wouldn't help, but they would
not openly appose such actions.