Cerillia in 600 years

[The Olesens]

Okay, 600 years ago people ran around fighting with swords and stuff (or
about that amout of time). Now we fight with computers, missiles and
machine guns. What will Cerillia be like in 1100 MR? Will Ghore be a
Repiblic? Will some Dosiere be the first man in space?

Now, add magic and bloodabilities to the mix. Today for sale we have an
M16 +3 with Distibution and Wounding Properties. Could you cast
"Un-Freeeze Computer" for me? Are Paladins immune to Saddam's Biolgical
weapons? New realm spell created, "Teleport Aircaraft Carrier"!
Teleports an Aircraft Carrier and its normal supporting fleet. Not to
metion this Howitzer of Speed.

Oh, and by the way, what will the Gorgon wear now that plate mail is out
of style? Bulletproof combat suit +5?



What major advances were made between Dessimar and 500 MR? Surely
something was invented in 2,000 years! It seems that the technology and
fighting styles were the same back then.




This comes from thinking about what will happen to an elf with Great
Long life. Let's say your average elf lives about 1,000 years (disease,
etc.). Now he ages 1 year for every 1,000 years. that comes out to a
staggering 1,000,000 (one million) years.

[Suiriene@aol.co]

In a message dated 6/28/98 8:32:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
olesens@bellatlantic.net writes:

>
Fairly minor spoilers for Sword of Roele












In the adventure the Sword of Roele is mentioned as being made in the more
barbaric heavier style of Micheal Roele's time. I interpreted that as being a
broadsword. I guess that I would rule that they didn't have longswords back
then and only broadswords. I am not sure if this would play out in our
history. Something to think about.

[The Olesens]

The Olesens wrote:
>
> Okay, 600 years ago people ran around fighting with swords and stuff (or
> about that amout of time). Now we fight with computers, missiles and
> machine guns. What will Cerillia be like in 1100 MR? Will Ghore be a
> Repiblic? Will some Dosiere be the first man in space?
>
> Now, add magic and bloodabilities to the mix. Today for sale we have an
> M16 +3 with Distibution and Wounding Properties. Could you cast
> "Un-Freeeze Computer" for me? Are Paladins immune to Saddam's Biolgical
> weapons? New realm spell created, "Teleport Aircaraft Carrier"!
> Teleports an Aircraft Carrier and its normal supporting fleet. Not to
> metion this Howitzer of Speed.
>
> Oh, and by the way, what will the Gorgon wear now that plate mail is out
> of style? Bulletproof combat suit +5?

Actually by then, Raesane will be a stone statue, because every hundered
or thousand years, his AC betters by one, but once his natural AC is
- -10, he turns to complete stone, a statue worth over $50,000,000+.

>
> What major advances were made between Dessimar and 500 MR? Surely
> something was invented in 2,000 years! It seems that the technology and
> fighting styles were the same back then.
>
> This comes from thinking about what will happen to an elf with Great
> Long life. Let's say your average elf lives about 1,000 years (disease,
> etc.). Now he ages 1 year for every 1,000 years. that comes out to a
> staggering 1,000,000 (one million) years.
> ************************************************** *************************
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[Clayton F. Hinton]

I think this all boils down to the fact that the "great minds" of the world
are not inventing technological gizmo's or contraptions, and are not trying
to write the "Law's of Nature." They are working with the Magic, and this
toil will doom the world to a never-ending dark age where mechanical
advancements are shunned in favor of Magic. The best a magical world can
do is to develop magic to such an extent that it operates much like today's
technological contraptions. As a good example, see the Darksword Trilogy
by Weis and Hickman.

At 09:21 PM 6/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Okay, 600 years ago people ran around fighting with swords and stuff (or
>about that amout of time). Now we fight with computers, missiles and
>machine guns. What will Cerillia be like in 1100 MR? Will Ghore be a
>Repiblic? Will some Dosiere be the first man in space?
>
>Now, add magic and bloodabilities to the mix. Today for sale we have an
>M16 +3 with Distibution and Wounding Properties. Could you cast
>"Un-Freeeze Computer" for me? Are Paladins immune to Saddam's Biolgical
>weapons? New realm spell created, "Teleport Aircaraft Carrier"!
>Teleports an Aircraft Carrier and its normal supporting fleet. Not to
>metion this Howitzer of Speed.
>
>Oh, and by the way, what will the Gorgon wear now that plate mail is out
>of style? Bulletproof combat suit +5?
>
>
>
>What major advances were made between Dessimar and 500 MR? Surely
>something was invented in 2,000 years! It seems that the technology and
>fighting styles were the same back then.
>
>
>
>
>This comes from thinking about what will happen to an elf with Great
>Long life. Let's say your average elf lives about 1,000 years (disease,
>etc.). Now he ages 1 year for every 1,000 years. that comes out to a
>staggering 1,000,000 (one million) years.
>************************************************** *************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Olesens
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Sunday, June 28, 1998 8:32 PM
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Cerillia in 600 years


>Okay, 600 years ago people ran around fighting with swords and stuff (or
>about that amout of time).

1398 AD....gunpowder was already developed, Europe was still recovering
from the black plague, a dozen other things that amount to more than stuff.

>Now we fight with computers, missiles and machine guns.

Yep..

> What will Cerillia be like in 1100 MR?

Who knows? What do you want it to be like? It's not like technology
has to increase at any set rate(at least, there's no LAW that we know of to
dictate such..).

>Will Ghore be a Repiblic?

Russia was an autocracy less than 100 years ago, China and Japan
still had emperors, as did Germany and Austria-Hungary for that
matter.

>Will some Dosiere be the first man in space?


Could be.


>Oh, and by the way, what will the Gorgon wear now that plate mail is out
>of style? Bulletproof combat suit +5?


I think he'll be dead by then....


>What major advances were made between Dessimar and 500 MR?

I dunno, but the aftereffects of Dessimar is something to consider.
Chances are there would be some technological regression after that.

>Surely something was invented in 2,000 years!

Certainly....but how major were the inventions? How widely were they
adopted?

>It seems that the technology and fighting styles were the same back then.


Perhaps they were in some ways....and the books just don't cover it....in
any case how different were the 1700s were from the 1100s? In many ways,
quite a lot, but not in all of them..

[The Olesens]

E Gray wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Olesens
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Date: Sunday, June 28, 1998 8:32 PM
> Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Cerillia in 600 years
>
> >Okay, 600 years ago people ran around fighting with swords and stuff (or
> >about that amout of time).
>
> 1398 AD....gunpowder was already developed, Europe was still recovering
> from the black plague, a dozen other things that amount to more than stuff.
>
> >Now we fight with computers, missiles and machine guns.
>
> Yep..
>
> > What will Cerillia be like in 1100 MR?
>
> Who knows? What do you want it to be like? It's not like technology
> has to increase at any set rate(at least, there's no LAW that we know of to
> dictate such..).
>
> >Will Ghore be a Repiblic?
>
> Russia was an autocracy less than 100 years ago, China and Japan
> still had emperors, as did Germany and Austria-Hungary for that
> matter.
>
> >Will some Dosiere be the first man in space?
>
> Could be.
>
> >Oh, and by the way, what will the Gorgon wear now that plate mail is out
> >of style? Bulletproof combat suit +5?
>
> I think he'll be dead by then....
>
> >What major advances were made between Dessimar and 500 MR?
>
> I dunno, but the aftereffects of Dessimar is something to consider.
> Chances are there would be some technological regression after that.
>
> >Surely something was invented in 2,000 years!
>
> Certainly....but how major were the inventions? How widely were they
> adopted?
>
> >It seems that the technology and fighting styles were the same back then.
>
> Perhaps they were in some ways....and the books just don't cover it....in
> any case how different were the 1700s were from the 1100s? In many ways,
> quite a lot, but not in all of them..


I agree. I like the idea that technology was suppresed after Desimaar.
I forgot about the Gorgon's Improvined Armor Class Death (turns to
stone).

Do you think 1 point of AC improvement every 100 years would be
appropiate? (when he reaches the AC of solid stone he dies).

The Ruins of Empire might have also slowed Techneolgical advances. I'd
say the biggest advances were made during the Empire. The big uglies
(gorgon, spider) will have also slowed technology with thier wars.

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 98-06-28 21:32:24 EDT, you write:

> This comes from thinking about what will happen to an elf with Great
> Long life. Let's say your average elf lives about 1,000 years (disease,
> etc.). Now he ages 1 year for every 1,000 years. that comes out to a
> staggering 1,000,000 (one million) years.
>

Um.. Elves are immortal. They do not age past maturity. Having them age even
one year per millenia is a step backwards. Also, they are immune to disease
(although they have the usual allergic reactions to weapons; redness,
swelling, pain and lots of blood ;)

- -DKE

[The Olesens]

DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-06-28 21:32:24 EDT, you write:
>
> > This comes from thinking about what will happen to an elf with Great
> > Long life. Let's say your average elf lives about 1,000 years (disease,
> > etc.). Now he ages 1 year for every 1,000 years. that comes out to a
> > staggering 1,000,000 (one million) years.
> >
>
> Um.. Elves are immortal. They do not age past maturity. Having them age even
> one year per millenia is a step backwards. Also, they are immune to disease
> (although they have the usual allergic reactions to weapons; redness,
> swelling, pain and lots of blood ;)
>
> -DKE


So what does Long Life do for an elf?

[Caleb Chitwood]

This is a good question and worthy of debate. The way I look at it is that
every elf is born w/ a "new and improved" version of long life: they age to
maturity and then stop until somebody manages to stick 'em w/ a sword or
some other event ends their life. As far as I'm concerned, long life is
completely useless to an elf. If I had an elven PC who rolled up long life
as a blood ability, I would probably allow them to roll again. Now, of
course, all of this falls under "Caleb's opinion" and should be taken w/ a
grain of salt. If anyone else out there has any ideas about how long life
affects elves, I'd love to hear 'em.

Caleb

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Caleb Chitwood
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Monday, June 29, 1998 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Cerillia in 600 years


>This is a good question and worthy of debate. The way I look at it is that
>every elf is born w/ a "new and improved" version of long life: they age to
>maturity and then stop until somebody manages to stick 'em w/ a sword or
>some other event ends their life. As far as I'm concerned, long life is
>completely useless to an elf.

Ok, that makes *sense*.

> If I had an elven PC who rolled up long life as a blood ability, I would
>probably allow them to roll again.

Considering the above, this is quite logical..

>Now, of course, all of this falls under "Caleb's opinion" and should be
taken >w/ a grain of salt. If anyone else out there has any ideas about how
long life
>affects elves, I'd love to hear 'em.


Ok, example...Milo Morai of the Horseclans books(by Robert Adams...good
read if you can find them...), is also immortal, at least as far as the
reader
can tell....but his memories tend to get fuzzy, and according to the GURPS
version, at least, maybe not the books if he or any other immortal(there are
quite a few of them...)takes a blow to the head, they stand a substantial
chance of losing their memories. Afterall, if you live long enough, you're
going to have so many things to remember that its hardly suprising some
things get dumped.... Heck, psychologically you could go nuts and decide
to spend your time counting daisies or a dozen other problems. But, if
the
elf in question has long-lived, well those difficulties are prevented or at
least
forestalled. There how does that possibility strike everyone?

[Caleb Chitwood]

I've thought about the psychological implications of being immortal and as
of yet I don't think I've satisfied myself, but here are a few of the things
that I've considered might aid elves in not going insane. The first is
there intelligence, if we just wanted to be really simple we could say
"Listen, elves are just plain ole too smart to go insane on a regular
basis." This isn't to say that they can't, just that the racial tendancy
towards serious gray matter helps them combat insanity as a whole. Another
thing to consider is that one of the things that would make immortality so
tough is watching those around you die. However, most elves live in an
elven nation. As a result their friends and loved ones are living just as
long as they are. Of course, an adventuring elf would be in the world with
"short lived" humans so he might be more inclined to go nuts. Another thing
is the whole "time flows different in elven realms" thing. I've thought and
thought about this one and I still don't know what I think. If this has
already been discussed before I was around, I really wish somebody would
send me what was decided. But, one way to the other, you could say that
this helps them out a bit. Now, you were saying that immortals would build
up so many memories over time that they would run a risk of losing them in a
traumatic experience. I think this is a very realistic look at immortality.
However, it is a look at *human* immortality. In a BR novel that I read ( I
can't remember which one) an elf and a human are discussing the humanity's
mortality versus the immortality of the elves. To my surprise, the elf was
actually jealous of the human. The point that is made is that humans know
that their time is numbered, and as a result they are much more passionate
about things. Elves however, have unlimited time and for them, there is
always tomorrow. In essence, they are the ultimate procrastinators. They
choose to put things off because they know they can. The result is that
they aren't very passionate about the things that they do. I think that is
a pretty intelligent view of elven immortality. Now, I said all that to
make this point: perhaps elves don't run the risk of loosing their memories
because they don't make many of them. I picture elves spending much of
their time in thought and meditation rather that action. Perhaps this
tendancy towards idleness combined w/ their intelligence and whatever other
factors you care to throw in is enough to stave off insanity and let them
live as "normal" elves for the entirety of the immortal lives. This is just
the way I look at it and I'm open to other suggestions. On the other side
of the argument, I do imagine that there are elves who get tired of living
and go out into the world, in essence, seeking their own deaths. I think
there would be a pretty good chance of insanity in these elves, seeing as
how they are alread a bit unbalanced. This is also one of the reasons that
I think many elves that are seen outside of elven realms are very old.

Caleb

[veryfastperson@juno.com]

>On the other
>side
>of the argument, I do imagine that there are elves who get tired of
>living
>and go out into the world, in essence, seeking their own deaths.

Hmm, could Rhoubhe Manslayer be considered one of these elves? He is one
who constantly goes into the world, could he too be seeking his death for
some strange "elven" reason? He has been alive longer then all the elves
i can think of...

> I
>think
>there would be a pretty good chance of insanity in these elves, seeing
>as
>how they are alread a bit unbalanced. This is also one of the reasons
>that
>I think many elves that are seen outside of elven realms are very old.

Wow... An insane Rhoubhe running around Anuire... it has some good gaming
sides to it :)


>

>Caleb
>
>************************************************** *************************
>To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
>line
>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

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[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Olesens
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Monday, June 29, 1998 7:02 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Cerillia in 600 years



>> >Oh, and by the way, what will the Gorgon wear now that plate mail is out
>> >of style? Bulletproof combat suit +5?
>>
>> I think he'll be dead by then....


>I agree. I like the idea that technology was suppresed after Desimaar.
> I forgot about the Gorgon's Improvined Armor Class Death (turns to
>stone).


Here's a suggestion:

One day, the Gorgon's servants/high-muckety-mucks wake up to the
fact that their master is now, well stone-cold dead, and naturally there's
a fight for leadership among his dubiously qualified successors, which
eventually spreads outward, followed by strikes into the heart of the
*former* Gorgon's domain, and eventually capture and display in the
conqueror's capital of the remains of said personage. Here's the
clincher, the Gorgon's mind is still active and aware, and capable of
*some* functions, say whispering in a few ears, scratching notes, twisting
some souls. Perhaps not as much as before, but still capable of some
major damage..

>Do you think 1 point of AC improvement every 100 years would be
>appropiate? (when he reaches the AC of solid stone he dies).


Depends on when I want him to die...

>The Ruins of Empire might have also slowed Techneolgical advances. I'd
>say the biggest advances were made during the Empire.

Some of them yes...

>The big uglies (gorgon, spider) will have also slowed technology with
thier >wars.


To some extent, yes.....sped others though..

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Caleb Chitwood
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Monday, June 29, 1998 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Cerillia in 600 years


>I've thought about the psychological implications of being immortal and as
>of yet I don't think I've satisfied myself,

I should hope you wouldn't, we don't actually have *anything* real to go on,
thus one approach can be as valid as any other...

> but here are a few of the things that I've considered might aid elves in
not >going insane. The first is there intelligence, if we just wanted to be
really >simple we could say "Listen, elves are just plain ole too smart to
go insane >on a regular basis." This isn't to say that they can't, just
that the racial >endancy owards serious gray matter helps them combat
insanity as a >whole.

Rather flimsy, since AFAIK, there's no discernible difference in the % of
smart/average/dumb humans who go insane. In fact, there are some who
believe the *most* intelligent among us are actually psychotic...of course
this is soley based on human experience, it doesn't neccessarily apply
to Elves..

> Another thing to consider is that one of the things that would make
>immortality so tough is watching those around you die.

Perhaps, it's hard to tell..




> Now, you were saying that immortals would build up so many memories >over
time that they would run a risk of losing them in a traumatic experience >I
think this is a very realistic look at immortality.

Aah, well thank Robert Adams then..

>However, it is a look at *human* immortality.

Yep..

>In a BR novel that I read ( I can't remember which one) an elf and a human
>are discussing the humanity's mortality versus the immortality of the
elves.

Haven't read any myself, but it's a common type of discussion..

>To my surprise, the elf was actually jealous of the human.

That grass is always greener on the other side, and mayhaps the author
showed some bias. Have to make us Humans better than the BEM's,
y'know?

>This is also one of the reasons that I think many elves that are seen
outside >of elven realms are very old.

Well, perhaps we've explained *something* .

[Samuel Weiss]

>Ok, example...Milo Morai of the Horseclans books(by Robert Adams...good
read if you can find them...), is also immortal, at least as far as the
reader can tell....but his memories tend to get fuzzy, and according to the
GURPS
version, at least, maybe not the books if he or any other immortal(there are
quite a few of them...)takes a blow to the head, they stand a substantial
chance of losing their memories.<

In the books as well. He was mugged around 1939 and hit on the head and has
no memories at all from before that year.
Not that there have been any new books in years for the series. Robert
Adams, die or something and i not see it in some trade magazine? Or did he
just get tired of writing pulp tripe? (I like pulp tripe BTW, I am just
honest about it.)

Samwise

[bloebick@juno.com (Benja]

On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 10:26:40 -0400 The Olesens
writes:
>So what does Long Life do for an elf?

Nothing. Nothing at all.

Benjamin

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[Phil Burge]

Caleb Chitwood wrote:

> I've thought about the psychological implications of being immortal and as
> of yet I don't think I've satisfied myself, but here are a few of the things
> that I've considered might aid elves in not going insane. The first is
> there intelligence, if we just wanted to be really simple we could say
> "Listen, elves are just plain ole too smart to go insane on a regular
> basis." This isn't to say that they can't, just that the racial tendancy
> towards serious gray matter helps them combat insanity as a whole.

Unfortunately, a high INT generally also indicates an active mind which means
an Elf being immortal would get bored and this would probably drive the poor
sucker insane (anything to relieve it!). On the other hand, you could use the
Elvish immortality of Tolkien, where although elves are immortal they can die
by violence or by "growing weary of the world". From there they go to the Halls
of Awaiting where they wait to be born again.

> Another
> thing to consider is that one of the things that would make immortality so
> tough is watching those around you die. However, most elves live in an
> elven nation. As a result their friends and loved ones are living just as
> long as they are. Of course, an adventuring elf would be in the world with
> "short lived" humans so he might be more inclined to go nuts.

True enough

> Another thing
> is the whole "time flows different in elven realms" thing. I've thought and
> thought about this one and I still don't know what I think. If this has
> already been discussed before I was around, I really wish somebody would
> send me what was decided.

Ditto.



> But, one way to the other, you could say that
> this helps them out a bit. Now, you were saying that immortals would build
> up so many memories over time that they would run a risk of losing them in a
> traumatic experience.

Good idea... has possibilities...

> I think this is a very realistic look at immortality.
> However, it is a look at *human* immortality. In a BR novel that I read ( I
> can't remember which one) an elf and a human are discussing the humanity's
> mortality versus the immortality of the elves. To my surprise, the elf was
> actually jealous of the human. The point that is made is that humans know
> that their time is numbered, and as a result they are much more passionate
> about things. Elves however, have unlimited time and for them, there is
> always tomorrow.

But then how do you explain elves like Rhoube who are very passionate (in
Rhoube's case about destroying Humankind

In essence, they are the ultimate procrastinators. They

> choose to put things off because they know they can. The result is that
> they aren't very passionate about the things that they do. I think that is
> a pretty intelligent view of elven immortality. Now, I said all that to
> make this point: perhaps elves don't run the risk of loosing their memories
> because they don't make many of them. I picture elves spending much of
> their time in thought and meditation rather that action. Perhaps this
> tendancy towards idleness combined w/ their intelligence and whatever other
> factors you care to throw in is enough to stave off insanity and let them
> live as "normal" elves for the entirety of the immortal lives. This is just
> the way I look at it and I'm open to other suggestions. On the other side
> of the argument, I do imagine that there are elves who get tired of living
> and go out into the world, in essence, seeking their own deaths. I think
> there would be a pretty good chance of insanity in these elves, seeing as
> how they are alread a bit unbalanced. This is also one of the reasons that
> I think many elves that are seen outside of elven realms are very old.
>
> Caleb
>
>

- -- Stay tuned, same bat time, same bat channel,

Phil.

[Caleb Chitwood]

perhaps passionate was a poor word for what I was trying to say. You are
very correct about Roubhe being passionate. I do believe that he is an
exception to the rule, but passionate was still a poor word. I meant to say
something inbetween passionate and 'in a hurry'. In this case passionate
became too strong a word, and if I'd said "Elves just can't seem to get in a
hurry about anything." it would have seemed like a weak argument.
Unfortunately, I can't think of a word that fits what I'm looking for here,
so you folks are just gonna have to use your imaginations to try and
understand me : )

Caleb

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Samuel Weiss
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Monday, June 29, 1998 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Cerillia in 600 years


>>Ok, example...Milo Morai of the Horseclans books(by Robert Adams...good
>read if you can find them...), is also immortal, at least as far as the
>reader can tell....but his memories tend to get fuzzy, and according to the
>GURPS version, at least, maybe not the books if he or any other immortal
>(there are quite a few of them...)takes a blow to the head, they stand a
>substantial chance of losing their memories.<

>In the books as well. He was mugged around 1939 and hit on the head and
>has no memories at all from before that year.

Yes, well that happened only once which is hardly conclusive of anything.
One head injury doesn't tell the whole story, which is why I said maybe not
in the books..

>Not that there have been any new books in years for the series. Robert
>Adams, die or something and i not see it in some trade magazine?

He died in 1990 or therabouts,

> Or did he just get tired of writing pulp tripe? (I like pulp tripe BTW, I
am just
>honest about it.)


Tripe is good, not so pretentious as other books.....so does anyone want
to see some BR novels done in the style of Robert Adams? For those
who don't know the books, well, read them yourself. And go here

http://www.sff.net/locus/b3.html#A33

For a complete listing..

[Samuel Weiss]

>>Not that there have been any new books in years for the series. Robert
>Adams, die or something and i not see it in some trade magazine?

He died in 1990 or therabouts,<

Oh well. i sort of figured as much. Still, sorry to hear about it. He was
good at pulp. Not everyone is.

> Or did he just get tired of writing pulp tripe? (I like pulp tripe BTW, I
am just
>honest about it.)


Tripe is good, not so pretentious as other books.....so does anyone want
to see some BR novels done in the style of Robert Adams? <

Another pulp fan. I like peopel who can appreciate cheap throw aways for
what they are. And authors who can deal with knowing that is what they
write. As for BR novels in that style, why not. Heck, between Highlander and
Horseclans, they form the basis for a lot of my BR ideas. A scion with long
life and invulnerability would be about as close to Uncle Milo as you can
get.

Samwise

[Gary V. Foss]

Phil Burge wrote:

> Caleb Chitwood wrote:
>
> > I've thought about the psychological implications of being immortal and as
> > of yet I don't think I've satisfied myself, but here are a few of the things
> > that I've considered might aid elves in not going insane. The first is
> > there intelligence, if we just wanted to be really simple we could say
> > "Listen, elves are just plain ole too smart to go insane on a regular
> > basis." This isn't to say that they can't, just that the racial tendancy
> > towards serious gray matter helps them combat insanity as a whole.
>
> Unfortunately, a high INT generally also indicates an active mind which means
> an Elf being immortal would get bored and this would probably drive the poor
> sucker insane (anything to relieve it!). On the other hand, you could use the
> Elvish immortality of Tolkien, where although elves are immortal they can die
> by violence or by "growing weary of the world". From there they go to the Halls
> of Awaiting where they wait to be born again.

I'm not trying to be a smart alec when I say that I think the important thing to
remember about elves is that, well, they're not human. I mean, an immortal human
would very likely go bonkers sooner or later. But elves are different. They have
an entirely "alien" psychology from humans. From my perspective, insanity is as
incompatible as disease, aging, eating pork rinds or doing the Macaraina (SP?)

There are some really interesting psychological and sociological studies going on
right now about aboriginal peoples and how they perceive things like time,
distance, mathematics, even basic colors differently from us. I remember reading
about how native Americans had a totally different method of map making that was
based upon travel time rather than distance covered.

The point is that those folks are our fellow human beings. Yet their psychologies
are distinctly different from what most of us are used to.. Most cultures clash
like plaid and polka dots when they run into one another, but elves (and dwarves
and goblins) would be even more incomprehensible to humans in Cerilia. Similarly,
applying a human concept like madness to elves doesn't work.

Elves aren't driven mad by their immortality because they're immortal by nature.
Humans would be driven mad by it because they're not. I think you'd be much more
likely to run into a deranged elf if he had been cursed to a limited lifespan. The
specter of death looming over him. (He might live only another century or
two....) He'd be driven mad by the Drip Torture-like wait for the inevitable....

Gary

[James Ray]

I dont think Milo (the Undying, if I remember right...) was so much
immortal as he was regenerative. My most vivid memory of the books was his
opening his wrist (or other prominently veined extremity) and the wound
ceasing to bleed and healing right away. I have no idea wether the author
stil lives or not, though :)
- ----------
...Milo Morai of the Horseclans books(by Robert Adams...good
> read if you can find them...), is also immortal, at least as far as the
> reader can tell....but his memories tend to get fuzzy,

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: James Ray
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Cerillia in 600 years


>I dont think Milo (the Undying, if I remember right...) was so much
>immortal as he was regenerative.

He was immortal, in that he didn't age, at least not past a certain point.
The regenerative abilities were just another factor.. And if you've read
A Man called Milo Morai, you'd also see that he didn't have to worry about
fleas and other little bothers..

> My most vivid memory of the books was his opening his wrist (or other
>prominently veined extremity) and the wound ceasing to bleed and healing
>right away.

Funny, most people would have chosen a different type of scene...not
that more than a few of them didn't involve violence too..


> I have no idea wether the author stil lives or not, though :)


He's dead.

[Solmyr]

There was a similar question on the Realms list last year, so I searched the
recesses on my twisted mind and came up with the following:

Anuire in 1151 MR

Anuire has changed a lot in the last 600 years. After the endless wars for
the Iron Throne, the death of the Gorgon, and the rise of the elves, Anuire
is not the same as you know it...

Domains of Anuire

Roesone: No longer exists, being overrun by the hordes of Diemed and
Ghoere.
Aerenwe: Has been annexed by Ghoere. The beutiful Erebannien is no more,
having been cut down for lumber.
Medoere: Has been conquered by Diemed.
Ilien: Has been taken over Diemed. The last Count Aglondier was executed by
the Dieman government.

Diemed
In the years since the coming of Ayatollah Comeinie, Diemed has risen
among the most powerful realms in Anuire. The Orthodox Imperial Temple of
Haelyn has spread to the surrounding lands, agitating and subverting the
people to its cause. When the last Duke Diem has not proven to be pious
enough, he was overthrown and a theocracy has been established.
The holy armies of Diemed have overrun Medoere, Ilien, southern Roesone, and
Spiderfell. Diemed is still ruled by the Ayatollah of Haelyn, the only god
allowed in the realm.

Mieres
The Vaumel family stayed more or less in power for these centuries. Mieres
has finally declared independence from Avanil about 100 years ago, and its
leader, Simon Vaumel, has successfully fought off Avanil's Expeditionary
Force. The country, like any self-respecting republic, is now a haven for
drug plantations and weapons smugglers.

The Spiderfell
The Spiderfell has been overrun by the armies of Diemed 300 years ago. Not
a single tree has been left standing here - the whole area is now one big
plain. The Spider himself was killed by Ayatollah Comeinie's armies.

Port of Call Exchange
This guild rose to power after its leader converted to the ways of Haelyn
and became the approved guilder of Diemed. After Diemed crushed the other
realms on the southern coast, Port of Call Exchange has spread all over the
place.

High Mage Aelies
This half-elf wizard watched helplessly as hordes from Ghoere hacked down
the Erebannien. It is thought that he has retreated to the north, to the
elven realm there.

United Kingdom of the Western Coast
This realm consists of the former realms of Boeruine and Talinie. These two
countries united 400 years ago when Riegon Donalls, Thane of Talinie,
married Idele, daughter and the only child of the Archduke of Boeruine.
Their combined armies swept into Taeghas and Avanil, crushing Avan's forces
and making Avanil a vassal of Boeruine (see Avanil for more info). Over the
centuries, the UKWC became more and more corrupt; finally, Avanil and other
vassals declared independence. Now, UKWC is an old-fashioned country
dreaming of good old days.

Talinie: Was united with Boeruine, forming the United Kingdom of the Western
Coast.
Brosengae: Was conquered by UKWC. Now it is part of United States of Avanil.

Rhuobhe
Rhuobhe was invaded in force by Avanil, Brosengae, Taeghas, and Tuornen.
Although the human forces managed to destroy Tower Ruannoch, they suffered
grievous losses, and UKWC swiftly came in and took over. Rhuobhe Manslayer
himself escaped and now leads the large elf country in the north.

Taeghas: Was conquered by UKWC. Now part of United States of Avanil.

Northern Imperial Temple of Haelyn
This church has become a haven for old-timers and traditionalists, much like
the Orthodox Imperial Temple has been. It is still the official religion of
the United Kingdom of the Western Coast.

United States of Avanil
This large country encompasses the former realms of Avanil, Brosengae,
Taeghas, and Tuornen. All these lands were conquered by UKWC. However, as
UKWC became more and more corrupt, its vassals rebelled (after dumping a
bunch of tea into the Arnienbae). Now, this country is governed by an
elected President, although each province has its own local government as
well.

Ghoeran Reich
This militaristic country endured throughout the centuries. It finally saw
its rise to greatness when Fuhrer Adolf Ghieste overthrew the old Tael
family and proclaimed himself ruler of Ghoere. Under his leadership, the
hordes of Ghoere swept across central Anuire, annexing Alamie, southern
Mhoried, western Elinie, Osoerde, northern Roesone, and Aerenwe. The last of
the Rangers of Erebannien and Guardians of Mhoried disappeared into the
Achiese concentration camp. Ghoere's elite soldiers are called SS (Stormlord
Seerbrand, a religious organization that migrated here from Brechtur), and
it is policed by GESTAPO (Ghoeran Extraordinary Specially Trained Armed
Police Organization).

Mhoried: this country steadfastly opposed the Gorgon until his death.
However, its army was weakened so that Ghoere was able to conquer its
southern part. The north endured for some time, until it was finally put out
of its misery by the elves of Rhuobhe from the north.

Tuornen: this country was conquered by UKWC. It is now part of United States
of Avanil.
Alamie: The Alam family continued to rule Alamie, each generation
increasingly more weak. It was finally conquered by Ghoere.

City of Anuire
The Imperial City is now little more than ruins. 500 years ago, it was
simultaneously attacked by Avanil, Ghoere, and Diemed, whose armies fought
over its rulership. No clear winner emerged, but the last Dosiere
Chamberlain fell defending the City, and it was reduced to ruins. No attempt
has been made to rebuild it by either Avanil or Diemed, since both know
that the other will quickly attack and destroy any such attempts.

United Emirates of Elinie
Although the western part of this country was conquered by Ghoere, the
eastern part survived due to the discovery of large oil deposits in
Osoeriene and Hope's Demise. The oil was the prime ingredient for a new
powerful realm spell called 'Biological Infestation', which infected whole
enemy armies with horrible viruses that resulted in quick death. With this
spell, Elinie invaded and conquered Coeranys and the Chimaeron. Elinie's
current leader, President Saddam ibn Daouta, is making plans to establish
ley lines to Ghoere and Avanil, in order to devastate those realms with his
powerful spell. However, Ghoere's church, SS, has been able to provide some
resistance against the virus, so the two countries are now at stalemate.

Endier
Guilder Kalien was slain by George Endier, a descendant of the ancient
Endier family; thus, it was restored to its rightful ruler. Despite this,
Endier remained a center of commercial activity in the Heartlands, even
though it suffered hard blows when its operations were ousted from Diemed
and Ghoere. Endier has formed an alliance with United States of Avanil,
whose economy it now controls almost exclusively. The country might join the
United States in the near future.

Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn
After the conquest of Avanil and Tuornen, this temple became a haven for all
dissidents and rebels against UKWC's rule. After United States of Avanil
achieved independence, the WIT disintegrated into many small churches,
because its members couldn't agree on the 'proper' way to worship Haelyn
(mostly in minor details). Two factions are especially worthy of note. The
first is called Haelyn Tsarevic, which preaches the Trinity of Hanging,
Drawing, and Quartering the enemies of faith; this faction is led by Ivan
Profiev and most of its members are Vos immigrants. The second faction is
called the Chanting Monks of Haelyn; its members are infamous for sitting in
the middle of a busy street and chanting 'Hare Haelyn, Hare Haelyn' over and
over again.

Dhoesone: This nation was conquered by the elves.

Gorgon's Crown, Markazor
After the Gorgon finally turned to stone 300 years ago, the Crown shook as
armies from Anuire, Rjurik, and Brechtur scrambled to rip a piece for
themselves. The Crown was devastated in the process, leaving little but
shattered mountains and burnt forests. The surviving humanoids of the Crown
and Markazor fled north, into the Giantdowns. The petrified form of the
Gorgon still sits on its throne in Kal-Saitharak, and is considered a major
tourist attraction in Brechtur (tours are arranged from Dauren weekly by
Impras Silubhra Travel Agency).

Tuarhievel
After Rhuobhe's fortress was taken by the humans, the Manslayer fled north.
Here, he reclaimed his ancient homeland from the encroaching humans, after
killing the half-elf descendant of Fhileraene and Savane Mhoried who ruled
the country. The awnshegh's armies have reclaimed a large part of
Aelvinnwode, including Dhoesone, Cariele, Thurazor, Five Peaks, northern
Mhoried, Markazor (which has been re-forested), and the Sielwode. Rhuobhe
thus proclaimed the Union of Soviet Sidhelien Republics, with himself as its
Secretary-General. No religion is allowed in the realm, and priests are
severely persecuted. The guilds and economy are under the direct control of
the government. The remaining humans were subjected to mass relocation
to the unforested parts of Dhoesone and Markazor.

Cariele: Was annexed by Rhuobhe. Its guilder, Parniel Bireon, was carted off
to prison, never to be seen again.
Five Peaks: Was conquered by Rhuobhe, who has conducted extensive ethnic
cleansing here.
Thurazor: Was annexed by Rhuobhe. The surviving goblins have fled to the
Giantdowns.

Mur-Kilad
The dwarves who remained after the Gorgon's death retreated deeper into the
depths of the earth. They were soon joined by refugees from Baruk-Azhik. No
word has been heard about the dwarves for centuries, and it is not known if
any still survive. Nobody lives on the surface of these mountains.

Baruk-Azhik
This realm was devastated by the Chimaera (see Chimaeron). The surviving
dwarves fled to Mur-Kilad. The mountains are used for the secret weapons
tests by Elinie.

Chimaeron
As she gained more power and longer life, Danita Kusor finally lost her
sanity. In the form of the Chimaera, she attacked Baruk-Azhik, devastating
the surface and even filling the underground tunnels with poisonois gas and
liquid fire. After most of the dwarven population was devastated, the
Chimaera, now apparently trapped forever in her monstrous form, flew away to
the south. Nothing is known of her present location. The Chimaeron itself
was overrun by the armies of Elinie soon after.

Coeranys: Was conquered by Elinie.
Osoerde: Was virtually enslaved by the Fuhrer of Ghoere. Before long, the
puppet Duke was 'taken away' and Ghoere annexed the country.

Sielwode
This realm saw hard times due to the attacks from the Gorgon, Kiergard, and
United Emirates of Elinie. Queen Isaelie was finally killed in battle
against a large orog army from Kiergard. Fortunately for the country,
Rhuobhe annexed the forest after forming the Sidhelien Union in the north,
and Sielwode has remained part of it (Siellaghriod Soviet Sidhelien
Republic) ever since.

So, this is a *possible* future of Cerilia. No disrespect is intended to any
countries, religions, or persons, since this is not intended to be taken
seriously (but who knows...).

Now, perhaps some poor sod with too much time and not enough sanity will
come up with something similar for other Cerilian regions...

:)

******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star
Visit the Archmage's Tower at
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html
Join the Mystaran Birthright PBEM at the above website!

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 98-06-29 10:38:13 EDT, you write:

> So what does Long Life do for an elf?
Absolutely nothing. I usually let an elf scion roll again.

- -DKE

[Caleb Chitwood]

Ya know, now that you put it that way, I feel silly for not even realizing
that such a concept would be inapplicable. I agree with you completely that
madness due to immortality would be foreign to an elf because immortality is
their natural state of being. Just though I'd give my two thumbs up! : )

Caleb

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Caleb Chitwood
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 9:14 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Cerillia in 600 years


>
>Ya know, now that you put it that way, I feel silly for not even realizing
>that such a concept would be inapplicable. I agree with you completely
that
>madness due to immortality would be foreign to an elf because immortality
>is their natural state of being.

Why? Culturally, they'd have less problems perhaps, but that doesn't mean
they couldn't have physical problems of some kind after a certain point
of time. After the mama and papa elves have, well become such and
raised their kids to self-sufficiency there are no survival traits which
shape
Elven Evolution so to speak.. And of course the law of Averages does
apply....sooner or later, some trauma is bound to give Mr.. Immortal Elf
a problem he can't cope with..

But then I am just trying to come up with a way to justify giving Elves
long life rather than letting them re-roll..

[Caleb Chitwood]

Well, I did a little research in the good ole BR rulebook, and near as I
can tell, elves are unaffected by any type of aging or normal disease (check
page 7, 3rd paragraph). Magical diseases can still get 'em (i.e.
lycanthropy or mummy rot). And although I see your point that eventually
they would be exposed to some debilitating disease, the rules seem to state
that even if they were, they would not be affected by it at all.

[Samuel Weiss]

>I dont think Milo (the Undying, if I remember right...) was so much
immortal as he was regenerative.<

Basically true. But if you take the Blood Abilities Long Life and whichever
the heck it is that requires a specific means of permanently killing a
scion, you get Milo Morai pretty stright up I would think.
Not the question becomes, where exactly is Ehlai in relation to Cerilia?

Samwise

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Caleb Chitwood
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Cerillia in 600 years


>
>Well, I did a little research in the good ole BR rulebook, and near as I
>can tell, elves are unaffected by any type of aging or normal disease
(check
>page 7, 3rd paragraph).

True, but that doesn't rule out mental stress, or getting clubbed in the
head
or anything else. Don't recally seeing anything about Elves being more
sane than anyone else....perhaps that might explain why so many of them
are considered to be so frivoulous and distracted by humans...



> Magical diseases can still get 'em (i.e. lycanthropy or mummy rot). And
>although I see your point that eventually they would be exposed to some
>debilitating disease, the rules seem to state that even if they were, they
>would not be affected by it at all.

No, what I'm trying to say that is eventually the elf in question will
suffer
something that will most likely affect his mental health.....in addition to
any
physical harm he might suffer..

[E Gray]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Samuel Weiss
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Cerillia in 600 years


>>I dont think Milo (the Undying, if I remember right...) was so much
>immortal as he was regenerative.<
>
>Basically true. But if you take the Blood Abilities Long Life and whichever
>the heck it is that requires a specific means of permanently killing a
>scion, you get Milo Morai pretty stright up I would think.

Plus lots of languages...

>Not the question becomes, where exactly is Ehlai in relation to Cerilia?


It's either to the west or east, on the coast of some continent....not
even the Horseclansmen can be sure..

[Andreas Kjeldsen]

> There was a similar question on the Realms list last year, so I searched the
> recesses on my twisted mind and came up with the following:
>
> Anuire in 1151 MR



Hmm, a bit pessimistic, aren't we? You got anything on technology and
the like?
Andreas Kjeldsen
morkitar@dadlnet.dk
ICQ# 12703652

-