The elves shall *rise* again! [

[TheMotive@aol.co]

In a message dated 98-06-29 18:06:01 EDT, someone wrote:

>

I beg to differ. The elves *still* don't have a fighting chance--even if the
gods don't "directly manifest" themselves. Think about it, the elves don't
have clerics, hence, they can't resurrect their dead, they can't heal their
wounded, nor can they create food and water for their troops.

Granted, they have wizardly magic, but wizard magic can only go so far. It's
my belief that wizardly magic is more powerful than clerical magic, but you
*can't* tell me that "cure _insert_severity_ wounds" isn't the best thing to
have when the general of the Elven 3rd Infantry is down for the count.

Second, the humans *still* have the population advantage. Even if you took the
three largest and most powerful countries in Anuire *alone*, you could still
probably stop an elven invasion from the Seilwode and Tuarhievel.

Think about it: the humans consider this land as much "theirs" as the elves
do, just like Americans consider the United States as much "theirs" as the
Native Americans do. Humanity would fight. All it would take is three or four
rousing speeches, and they would press *through* the forests and the jungles.
Sure, a lot would die from elven ambushes. But that would give them even
*more* reason to press ever onward, burning elven towers and destroying elven
civilization.

And the main reason this would work is because humanity has people to spare.
The elves need every able-bodied soldier they can get--but the humans have a
dense population as it is. They can afford to send in ten units of infantry
just to guard a unit of men and women to burn down the Sielwode. Elves can't.

- - The Motive

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 98-06-30 07:58:34 EDT, you write:

> And the main reason this would work is because humanity has people to spare.
> The elves need every able-bodied soldier they can get--but the humans have
a
> dense population as it is. They can afford to send in ten units of infantry
> just to guard a unit of men and women to burn down the Sielwode. Elves
can't.
>
>
Hmmph. Realm Spell: Warding. After they are already in the forest. The
elves could starve them to death.

- -DKE

[Pieter A de Jong]

At 07:55 AM 6/30/98 -0400, The Motive wrote:
>In a message dated 98-06-29 18:06:01 EDT, someone wrote:
>
>manifestation off limits to prevent another Deismaar, the elves have a
>fighting chance. >>
>
>I beg to differ. The elves *still* don't have a fighting chance--even if the
>gods don't "directly manifest" themselves. Think about it, the elves don't
>have clerics, hence, they can't resurrect their dead, they can't heal their
>wounded, nor can they create food and water for their troops.
>
If you need clerics to create food and water for your army, you have a
problem. Creating large amounts of food and water is impractical.
Ressurecting the dead is also impractical, how many clerics can cast raise
dead, let alone ressurection (although animating the dead is another
possibility, although frowned upon by most religions). And healing isn't
that much better than say a competent battle surgeon, unless you have a
really large number of clerics. Remember, elves don't get gangrene, or
other infections (immune to disease)

>Granted, they have wizardly magic, but wizard magic can only go so far. It's
>my belief that wizardly magic is more powerful than clerical magic, but you
>*can't* tell me that "cure _insert_severity_ wounds" isn't the best thing to
>have when the general of the Elven 3rd Infantry is down for the count.
>
Yes, the cure wounds spells are very nice. But if you really need to, a
limited wish will do the job. And wizards do a very impressive job of
causing mass destruction among the enemy, which usually results in a rout
and pursuit.
>
>Second, the humans *still* have the population advantage. Even if you took the
>three largest and most powerful countries in Anuire *alone*, you could still
>probably stop an elven invasion from the Seilwode and Tuarhievel.
>
>Think about it: the humans consider this land as much "theirs" as the elves
>do, just like Americans consider the United States as much "theirs" as the
>Native Americans do. Humanity would fight. All it would take is three or four
>rousing speeches, and they would press *through* the forests and the jungles.
>Sure, a lot would die from elven ambushes. But that would give them even
>*more* reason to press ever onward, burning elven towers and destroying elven
>civilization.
>
>And the main reason this would work is because humanity has people to spare.
>The elves need every able-bodied soldier they can get--but the humans have a
>dense population as it is. They can afford to send in ten units of infantry
>just to guard a unit of men and women to burn down the Sielwode. Elves can't.
>
Yes, humanity has a population advantage, and yes, humanity would fight.
However, the elves have an advantage in terms of magic. Which side would
win? I don't know, it would likely depend on my players action. Yes, put
your players at the center of the action, that is what they're playing
Birthright for.



Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Clayton F. Hinton]

>Hmmph. Realm Spell: Warding. After they are already in the forest. The
>elves could starve them to death.
>
Um...I belive there are human mages who could offset this...? Or do they
have no power over elves because of their innate inferiority to elven
"absolutely true" magic?

[Andreas Kjeldsen]

> And the main reason this would work is because humanity has people to spare.
> The elves need every able-bodied soldier they can get--but the humans have a
> dense population as it is. They can afford to send in ten units of infantry
> just to guard a unit of men and women to burn down the Sielwode. Elves can't.

Hmm. Can they? And would it be enough?

To demonstrate my point, let's assume one of the Anuirean nations
wanted to do that. We'll need a large, evil-aligned (preferably),
militaristic realm. Let's take Ghoere.

If Ghoere wanted to invade the Sielwode and burn it to the ground,
they could do it, sure. However, in order to get there, they would
have to cross enemy ground, i.e. Elinie. They could pay their way out
of that, but it would be expensive.

Now, imagine you are the Ghoeran general. Your army stands before the
ancient trees of the Sielwode. You give the order to move forward.
The first soldiers enter the forest....and are shot down by hidden
archers. You dispatch units to find and kill the archers while the
main army press on trying to find an enemy army or city. None of the
units return.

Your army move further into the forest. On their way, arrows appear
out of the air, scouts disappear without a trace and elven raiders
ambush you all the time. Some units turn down clear paths, only to
find themselves surrounded by poisonous bushes.

Your priests are working round the clock to heal the wounded, remove
poisons and controlling the weather, which has been strangely bad
ever since you entered. You have a feeling the army is being watched
all the time, perhaps even infiltrated, but you can't find any enemy
scouts or spies.

After a few months, half your army is dead or wounded. Then a
half-dead messenger from Ghoere catches up with you. Osoerde has
seized the moment and declared war, since most of the army was away.
The Baron orders you to return to defend the realm. You return to the
border, only to find an impregnable mist blocking your way.

How would you feel?

Still don't think the elves have a chance?

Andreas Kjeldsen
morkitar@dadlnet.dk
ICQ# 12703652

-

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 98-06-30 13:39:34 EDT, you write:

> >Hmmph. Realm Spell: Warding. After they are already in the forest. The
> >elves could starve them to death.
> >
> Um...I belive there are human mages who could offset this...? Or do they
> have no power over elves because of their innate inferiority to elven
> "absolutely true" magic?
>
Your scenario included NO priests or mages. It only included a unit of people
burning and 10 units of infantry. If you read Warding you'll notice that even
if they did have a mage or priest they'd have to have the "right spells" and
then only have a 50% chance of navigating it. Now, unless you find a way to
tie together 2,200 people and lead them blindly through a Warded forest
without losing anybody and make that 50% roll, you're toast.

I'm firmly of the belief that Warding is the most evil spell in the game. You
had d**n well have priest or wizard holding there to cast a Dispel Realm Magic
or you've just made a fatal booboo.

- -DKEvermore

[David Sean Brown]

> >Hmmph. Realm Spell: Warding. After they are already in the forest. The
> >elves could starve them to death.
> >
> Um...I belive there are human mages who could offset this...? Or do they
> have no power over elves because of their innate inferiority to elven
> "absolutely true" magic?

No, but if the elf has all the sources in that area, the human is outta
luck, no matter how powerful he/she is..he'she can't even establish a
level 0 cause once the warding is up, they can't get in to make the new
source...

Sean

[Gary V. Foss]

Pieter A de Jong wrote:

> >And the main reason this would work is because humanity has people to spare.
> >The elves need every able-bodied soldier they can get--but the humans have a
> >dense population as it is. They can afford to send in ten units of infantry
> >just to guard a unit of men and women to burn down the Sielwode. Elves can't.
> >
> Yes, humanity has a population advantage, and yes, humanity would fight.
> However, the elves have an advantage in terms of magic. Which side would
> win? I don't know, it would likely depend on my players action. Yes, put
> your players at the center of the action, that is what they're playing
> Birthright for.

There's been a lot of talk about this subject. I can't resist commenting....

I think I'd rather be on the side of the most population in this situation. Part
of the problem here is that the Elven Liberation Faction (the ELFs) is seeing
things in terms of relative power on a 1:1 basis. The Humans Over All Races
Dominating the Earth (HORDEs) see population as being a more important factor, and
I'm going to have to agree with them.

That elves are doomed seems as inevitable as their decline has been. Oh, I don't
think it will be as flashy and dramatic as some folks seem to be implying. The
human "advantage" of priestly magic is not really that significant, nor is the
relative power of their military units. It's just a matter of migratory
processes. If you were going to compare elves to just about any aboriginal people
in the real world. Elves are going to lose in the long run. It's just a matter of
time. The question is how much time?

A very, very long time.... Elves are pretty strong in their forested domains, and
they can stay in them for a good while. It takes much less time to chop down a
tree than it does for one to grow, however, so the deforestation of elven lands is
pretty inevitable. But chopping down trees is a pretty slow process too if you
don't have access to bulldozers and earth moving equipment.

The slow decline of the elves has been going on for thousands of years. It's going
to take thousands more for them to collapse. Even when they do, it's unlikely that
they would disappear entirely. Small enclaves of elves would still exist. For the
most part they would be powerless (from a political point of view) and hidden away,
but they'd still be out there. Maybe in dozen millenia there would be one lonely
elf wandering around like the Last of the Mohicans, but there's no need to go there
at this point.

- -Gary

[Gary V. Foss]

One last note on the decline of elves. The most important, telling, significant,
ultimate proof that elves are in decline. Ready? Here it is:

They're written that way.

Elves are almost ALWAYS in decline. Aside from being long lived, blondish, skinny and
musical, they're inevitably also on the way out. It's Tolkien, baby, there's just no
fightin' it. If you have a world with elves that are slowly dominating the planet,
then there is something inherently wrong with it. It's unnatural. What's next? A
breed of six foot halflings? (Not stouts, not tallfellows... we'll call them
ganglies.) Innocent orcs? Dwarven teetotalers? Maybe we should just have tapioca
breathing dragons or make the Gorgon a surrogate mother?

- -Gary

[Clayton F. Hinton]

>No, but if the elf has all the sources in that area, the human is outta
>luck, no matter how powerful he/she is..he'she can't even establish a
>level 0 cause once the warding is up, they can't get in to make the new
>source...
>
sure he can...he's a wizard. Wizards have a decent shot of penetrating the
mists of a Warding spell. But yes, 1100 dudes running into an elven forest
are dead, dead, dead. Any which way you slice it, they will lose to even a
fourth of their number of elves in the woods.

- -Clay

[Pieter A de Jong]

At 09:02 PM 6/30/98 -0700, Gary V. Foss wrote:
>One last note on the decline of elves. The most important, telling,
significant,
>ultimate proof that elves are in decline. Ready? Here it is:
>
>They're written that way.
>
>Elves are almost ALWAYS in decline. Aside from being long lived, blondish,
skinny and
>musical, they're inevitably also on the way out. It's Tolkien, baby,
there's just no
>fightin' it. If you have a world with elves that are slowly dominating the
planet,
>then there is something inherently wrong with it. It's unnatural. What's
next? A
>breed of six foot halflings? (Not stouts, not tallfellows... we'll call them
>ganglies.) Innocent orcs? Dwarven teetotalers? Maybe we should just have
tapioca
>breathing dragons or make the Gorgon a surrogate mother?
>
Yeah, I know, it's Tolkien, he's to blame. I liked his books, but every so
often, I despaired of the stupid decisions that were made. Just once, I'd
like to see a RPG world where humans aren't the future of the world. For
all I care it could be the orcs who are going to take it all. However, this
business of the humans must always win in the end in TSR's worlds is really
kind of annoying after a while.

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[David Sean Brown]

> >No, but if the elf has all the sources in that area, the human is outta
> >luck, no matter how powerful he/she is..he'she can't even establish a
> >level 0 cause once the warding is up, they can't get in to make the new
> >source...
> >
> sure he can...he's a wizard. Wizards have a decent shot of penetrating the
> mists of a Warding spell. But yes, 1100 dudes running into an elven forest
> are dead, dead, dead. Any which way you slice it, they will lose to even a
> fourth of their number of elves in the woods.

As far as I knew, other than the wizard who cast the spell, everone has
the same chance of penetrating the mists...not much...unless I missed a
rule in there somewhere..

[bloebick@juno.com (Benja]

On Wed, 1 Jul 1998 17:59:22 EDT DKEvermore@aol.com writes:
>I determined that this particular Ward, because of who was casting it
>(an Elf)
>did not affect wildlife. One PC Magician had a familiar and it was
>able to
>lead them. He he he the fact that it led them straight into an ambush
>is
>beside the fact. Hey, it was just an animal doing it's best, right?
>::evil
>chuckle::
>
>There you have it. One, maybe two ways in. You gotta be inventive in
>my
>game...
>
>-DKE

So polymorph into a hawk and fly in. Or a rabbit, a deer, a duck, a
mouse, anything. And waltz right in. ;)

Benjamin

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[mg26]

hmmm , do I see pity for the fluffy pointy ears fellows?

well I'll contribute by saying couple of words:

Elves in TSR are like mutants in Marvel , poor , holders
of true magic , everyone despites them apart themselves ,
they are a losing race , ect ect...

This is so .... well not to say silly , but it is pathetic
the way everyone thinks about elves , most people do not
see that the actual race emerging is not the elves
(munchkin , minimaxers , ect ect) but the Kobold empire ,
and remember the first elf was slained by a gobo , so the
emerging race and the race of success are the Kobolds and
Goblins , and humans and elves will be wiped out.....


Giovanni Garzelli

[Trizt]

On 01-Jul-98, Pieter A de Jong (pad300@mail.usask.ca) wrote about Re:
[BIRTHRIGHT] - The elves shall *rise* again! [not]:

- ->Yeah, I know, it's Tolkien, he's to blame. I liked his books, but every so
- ->often, I despaired of the stupid decisions that were made. Just once, I'd
- ->like to see a RPG world where humans aren't the future of the world. For
- ->all I care it could be the orcs who are going to take it all. However, this
- ->business of the humans must always win in the end in TSR's worlds is really
- ->kind of annoying after a while.

I must say that I agree with Pieter. IMO humans should become limited in some
classes like all the demihuman and dark races are, in classes which has to do
with nature. This becouse elves (atleast TSR version of them) are said to live
so close to nature, so they should have unlimited access to thise nature
preserving classes, while humans who does change the nature to fit them, not
the otherway around should be limitide in those classes or even barred from
them.
Maybe it should be time for a 3rd edition of AD&D which are less "human", for
thoose who likes to play a human dominated game could play Ars Magica.


//Trizt of Ward^RITE

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Nick : Trizt IRC: lib.hel.fi Channel: #Opers
MUD: callandor.imaginary.com 5317
--------------------
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IP : ukko.dyn.ml.org
--------------------

[James Ray]

I dont know about basing wether to do a 3rd edition on allowing some other
race to be dominant one in the campaign world. It shouldnt be THAT hard to
"tweak" the existing campaigns enough to allow for what you're wanting to
do. It seems to me, though, that if TSR thought there would be a market
for such a non-human campaign, they would have already done it by now. On
the other hand, ...I dont remember ever hearing their marketing folks were
the sharpest crayons in the box, either. What would probably work real
well would simply be to roll back the clock on the campaign, back to a time
before the humans became ascendant. With the maps of Cerilia, it wouldnt
be nearly as rough a task as with some of the other campaign worlds they
have. You could even run your BR in an alternate Aebrynis where the humans
never settled Cerilia, the Gods died somewhere other than Deismaar, or any
number of other little twists.
- ----------
> I must say that I agree with Pieter. IMO humans should become limited in
some classes like all the demihuman and dark races are, in classes which
has to do with nature. This becouse elves (atleast TSR version of them) are
said to live so close to nature, so they should have unlimited access to
thise nature preserving classes, while humans who does change the nature to
fit them, not the otherway around should be limitide in those classes or
even barred from them.
> Maybe it should be time for a 3rd edition of AD&D which are less "human",
for thoose who likes to play a human dominated game could play Ars Magica.
>
> //Trizt of Ward^RITE

[Pindanin@aol.co]

Well agree with ya'll about the humans always winning and dominating the
world, however if you ever have played in any of my caimpagns with my players
you will soon learn that humans are not the dominating part of the party. In
my birthright caimpagn right now we have 6 players. 1 half-elf, 1 dwarf, 2
elves and 3 humans. That is "only" 50% of the party's population. Much
greater than the average dont you think. In addition, one of the humans is
playing human only because her class is restricted to humans (paladin). The
party leader is the dwarf.

I also agree about limiting humans level limits in classes such as ranger,
druid and bard. The elves are much more attuned to nature and music. IF not
limiting human level limits, i think elves should have racial bonuses to
certain ablilities of these classes to help the out hence showing thier
closeness with nature.

Thanks

Pindanin@aol.com

[Gary V. Foss]

Pindanin@aol.com wrote:

> Well agree with ya'll about the humans always winning and dominating the
> world, however if you ever have played in any of my caimpagns with my players
> you will soon learn that humans are not the dominating part of the party. In
> my birthright caimpagn right now we have 6 players. 1 half-elf, 1 dwarf, 2
> elves and 3 humans. That is "only" 50% of the party's population. Much
> greater than the average dont you think. In addition, one of the humans is
> playing human only because her class is restricted to humans (paladin). The
> party leader is the dwarf.

On an individual basis, I think you're right. I find demi-humans more
interesting than humans quite often. Plus, their relative shortcomings make up
for their relative strengths.

> I also agree about limiting humans level limits in classes such as ranger,
> druid and bard. The elves are much more attuned to nature and music. IF not
> limiting human level limits, i think elves should have racial bonuses to
> certain ablilities of these classes to help the out hence showing thier
> closeness with nature.

I'd agree with you here, excepting that BR elves can't be druids. Druids in the
setting are not so much "nature priests" as they are priests of Erik, and our
fair flighty friends have a distinctly anti-priest POV. Sure, priests of Erik
look like druids, but there should be a few distinct differences. A couple of
people have mentioned that they should have to use the standard XP chart for
priests rather than the druidic one, which slows down their level advancement,
and they don't have the druidic "circles" and initiates, etc., so they don't have
to battle their way up levels the same way PHB druids do.

Personally, I think this is the weakest part of the elven anti-priest thing. I
mean, if the elves were going to worship a god, Erik would be their choice. The
reason they don't is probably more related to issues of game balance than
anything else. Elves do not need a bloodline to be "true" mages, right? To
compensate for this they cannot be priests. Simple as that.

- -Gary

[bloebick@juno.com (Benja]

On Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:04:42 EDT DKEvermore@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 98-07-01 19:05:44 EDT, you write:
>
>> So polymorph into a hawk and fly in. Or a rabbit, a deer, a duck, a
>> mouse, anything. And waltz right in. ;)
>>
>Polymorphed, shapeshifted, she still has that intelligence and I use
>the
>perpective that that is what triggers the effect.
>
>-DKE

Polymorph, feeblemind, fly in, have friend on inside cast dispel magic a
lot?

Benjamin

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[Tim Nutting]

As far as Elvish Druids are concerned, might want to try using a modified
Preserver/Defiler system as suggested in Spells and Magic. All powers
taken from the magic of the land, no gods required.