Elves, elves, elves, elves...

[Clayton F. Hinton]

>
>One word: CRAP! This is at best stereotypical and at worst a caricature.
>This view of elves came about as a function of solely of artificially
>imposed level limits from the 1st edition AD&D game, Birthright elves should
>not be treated in such a caricatured fashion. They are people, some have
>more focus than others. There is NO LIMIT on elven ability as a wizard in
>Birthright, see the birthright rulebook. As far as humans being more driven
>than elves, for a classic example take a look at Rhuobe Manslayer. He has
>spent the last 2000 years killing humans whenever and wherever he can, is he
>not "driven".

Yes! Rhoubhe IS driven, much like the humans he hates. He is a
psychopathic Awnsheighlin too, so if you think most elves want to be like
him I have to disagree (i.e., he's a bad guy). You know, if you want to
get right down to it, let's get to the basis for Birthright's elves:
J.R.R. Tolkein's books.

In Middle-Earth, my argument stands. Humans have the same ability to do
something with their life as an elf does. Perfect example: Elrond and his
brother (can't remember his name for the life of me...the first of the
Dunedain). Both were half-elves, but Elrond chose the way of the elves,
and thus was blessed with immortality (which is how it happens in
Middle-earth). His brother, however, chose the way of the humans, and
accomplished more in his lifetime than most people ever had, elf or human
alike. But, you do have a point: my view does come from a strong basis of
Game Balance. If a PC race has all the advantages, and no disadvantages,
then why would one wish to play a human? If the humans are the dominant
race, there aught to be a reason. The only one I can think of, on a
PC-related basis, is their passion to gain power, a passion that exceeds
those of other races. Besides, I just can't buy that an elf is driven to
succeed like some humans are. Rhoubhe is a great exception, and I'm glad
you mentioned it. But he's not an elf anymore: he's an Anti-Human.


>On an individual basis, I suspect that the average elf adapts to a new
>situation at least as fast as a human, having the same average wisdom, a
>higher average intelligence, and a racial prediliction to a chaotic
>environment (generally chaotic neutral alignment). As far as getting a grip
>on their "new place" in the world, what makes you think they are content to
>stay there?

My point is, though, not on an individual basis. Elves as a group are not
driven to make sacrifices for the greater whole (alignment). Some humans
(most successful groups that is) are Lawful in nature. This is another
reason why humans can succeed where Elves might not...they will act as a
group more often than a freedom-loving smattering of elves. Also, because
of their short lifespans, humans will change their ways much faster to cope
with a changing environment. After a good 60 years, they no longer have to
deal with people saying "back in my day...blah blah blah" to slow down a
necessary change. As a society, they have a better ability to deal with a
changing environment.

>
>I have trouble with the philosophical concept of gods (omniscient,
>omnipotent). IMC the elves look upon the gods as powerful extraplanar
>beings, not as something to be worshipped. They do understand that the gods
>exist, they just aren't ponying up to the altar with offerings for beings
>who have never done anything for them except kill them.
>>

So, you think they see them as their "equals?" Ok, I'll stop here. That's
funny.

[Pieter A de Jong]

At 11:04 PM 6/30/98 -0500, Clayton F. Hinton wrote:
>
>>
>>One word: CRAP! This is at best stereotypical and at worst a caricature.
>>This view of elves came about as a function of solely of artificially
>>imposed level limits from the 1st edition AD&D game, Birthright elves should
>>not be treated in such a caricatured fashion. They are people, some have
>>more focus than others. There is NO LIMIT on elven ability as a wizard in
>>Birthright, see the birthright rulebook. As far as humans being more driven
>>than elves, for a classic example take a look at Rhuobe Manslayer. He has
>>spent the last 2000 years killing humans whenever and wherever he can, is he
>>not "driven".
>
>Yes! Rhoubhe IS driven, much like the humans he hates. He is a
>psychopathic Awnsheighlin too, so if you think most elves want to be like
>him I have to disagree (i.e., he's a bad guy). You know, if you want to
>get right down to it, let's get to the basis for Birthright's elves:
>J.R.R. Tolkein's books.
>
Suggestion, also try some celtic mythology. All those strange seeming names
didn't come out of nowhere you know. If elves were based off of Tolkiens
books, they'd be a lot closer to gods. As in +3 on all rolled stats except
wisdom, racial minimum of 11's in all stats except wisdom. Even more potent
racial abilities. If youre wondering where this comes from, check out the
Silmarillion, where the Noldor start a war with a fully manifested greater
god and come close to winning, before getting driven back, mostly by
treachery and internal betrayal.


>In Middle-Earth, my argument stands. Humans have the same ability to do
>something with their life as an elf does.
Wrong, the actions of humans are not predestined, elves are. In other words,
as the creators direct creation, the actions of the elves are predestined.
The humans on the other hand are uncontrolled, choosing there own path.
This is not to say that an elf cannot be as driven as a human, for example
Feanor and his insane oath.

>Perfect example: Elrond and his
>brother (can't remember his name for the life of me...the first of the
>Dunedain). Both were half-elves, but Elrond chose the way of the elves,
>and thus was blessed with immortality (which is how it happens in
>Middle-earth). His brother, however, chose the way of the humans, and
>accomplished more in his lifetime than most people ever had, elf or human
>alike. But, you do have a point: my view does come from a strong basis of
>Game Balance. If a PC race has all the advantages, and no disadvantages,
>then why would one wish to play a human?

In practical game terms, the elves don't have all the advantages. 1) Elves
cannot be clerics, 2) Elves have level limits in classes other than
wizardry, try and play in a campaing without clerics On the other hand
advantages don't come into play that often, after all, how many times have
you had a character die (or otherwise become removed fromt he campaign) of
old age and have the demihumans in the party also retired their characters
and started over at that point as well? If you are looking for an
overpowered PC race I suggest you look at halflings, with massive saving
throw bonuses and special magical abilities.


>If the humans are the dominant
>race, there aught to be a reason. The only one I can think of, on a
>PC-related basis, is their passion to gain power, a passion that exceeds
>those of other races. Besides, I just can't buy that an elf is driven to
>succeed like some humans are. Rhoubhe is a great exception, and I'm glad
>you mentioned it. But he's not an elf anymore: he's an Anti-Human.
>
You're right, their ought to be a reason. I have difficulty saying that a
race that dominated a continent for 5000+ years is inherently unwilling to
work for power. Why did they enslave the entire goblin race for
approximately 2000 years if they are not willing to work for power? As for
alternate solution, I can see divine intervention, after all, the elves
don't have gods to protect them from such a fate.

>

>>
>>I have trouble with the philosophical concept of gods (omniscient,
>>omnipotent). IMC the elves look upon the gods as powerful extraplanar
>>beings, not as something to be worshipped. They do understand that the gods
>>exist, they just aren't ponying up to the altar with offerings for beings
>>who have never done anything for them except kill them.
>>>
>
>So, you think they see them as their "equals?" Ok, I'll stop here. That's
>funny.
>
No, your not getting it. They don't see them as something to worship. They
don't deny the gods existence, or even that they have power. They just
don't see them as something to worship. After all humans don't worship all
divine entities either just selected ones who apply to them. It's just that
these gods don't seem to apply to the elves.
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Tim Nutting]

> Yes! Rhoubhe IS driven, much like the humans he hates. He is a
> psychopathic Awnsheighlin too, so if you think most elves want to be like
> him I have to disagree (i.e., he's a bad guy).

Sorry, but what makes you think that elves are good guys? Their most
common alignment in BR is Chaotic Neutral. That means they don't care. In
point of fact, BR elves can't choose to be of any lawful alignment. In
support, "They are a force for neither good nor evil..." I submit that the
amount of elves that still agrees with Rhuobhe and goes to his wood to
serve him willingly and free of charge is at least 20%, if not more. But
they have other places to go too, if they hate humans, Lluabraight in
Rjurik for instance, where the captain of the armies IS a member of the
Ghallie Sidhe.

> You know, if you want to
> get right down to it, let's get to the basis for Birthright's elves:
> J.R.R. Tolkein's books.

You make some very strong arguments about Rhuobhe, which I do not dispute.
His own people hardly recognize him anymore, and he's becoming more Lawful,
thus making his ability to fight for the elvish cause questionable.

I do however dispute your choice of basis for the BR elves. If any
resource in the TSR compendium is Tolkien-based, it is the Complete Book of
Elves. This text reads like an index for the Quenya (and others) and
Phrehendai. The Elves of BR, if similar in ability and form, are far
different in act and attitude. The ME elves are by and large a happy folk
in the midst of a grim and dark world. This is not the case with the
Sidhelien, who are "...too mindful of their own superiority and treat
outsiders with coldness or condescension." Perhaps my only exposure to
them in the literature is when the company is with Gandalf, thus making the
bootlickers treat his friends like welcome guests, but the MERP game does a
good job of dispelling that.

> My point is, though, not on an individual basis. Elves as a group are
not


Absolutely true. Elves will have allot of internal disagreement, but there
is one group among them that does not, and that is the Ghallie Sidhe. If
the GS were to declare war on their own, do you think that the other realms
would abandon their brothers and sisters to retain the good will of the
humans?

The strength that the elves have over the human is immortality, and it is
an advantage, not a hindrance. No they don't adapt as quickly, but they
have the ability to devote their minds (which are of considerable power, on
average greater than humanity's) to an issue. Whether they stick to it
over time is another thing entirely, but Chaotic does not mean that you
abandon something you're interested in just to do something else... I play
chaotics most of the time, and my CX characters merely value a set of
morals that don't include the over-riding society. Chaotics are free
spirits. They do what they want when they want, but they can devote to an
issue just as easily as a lawful.

> >I have trouble with the philosophical concept of gods (omniscient,
> >omnipotent). IMC the elves look upon the gods as powerful extraplanar
> >beings, not as something to be worshipped. They do understand that the
gods
> >exist, they just aren't ponying up to the altar with offerings for
beings
> >who have never done anything for them except kill them.
> >>
>
> So, you think they see them as their "equals?" Ok, I'll stop here.
That's
> funny.

Why?

At least 1% of the elves alive now were alive at Deismaar. That's allot of
them. They have the unique perspective of being able to see that immortal
gods can be killed too. Yes these things are powerful, but where's the
proof that the clerics power really comes from the gods? Is it really that
or is it that these powers are able to channel the undeniable power of the
planes where they dwell and give it to worshippers? And of that 1%, maybe
1% decided to research the issue, and that lone scholar has been doing it
for 1500 years...

Oh Clay - BTW - this is fun, I've not had a real argument on this list in a
long time! Keep knocking me down please, because you've already hit some
stuff that I've been wrong on before!

Thanx!
Tim Nutting

[Clayton F. Hinton]

>
>Sorry, but what makes you think that elves are good guys? Their most
>common alignment in BR is Chaotic Neutral. That means they don't care. In
>point of fact, BR elves can't choose to be of any lawful alignment. In
>support, "They are a force for neither good nor evil..." I submit that the
>amount of elves that still agrees with Rhuobhe and goes to his wood to
>serve him willingly and free of charge is at least 20%, if not more. But
>they have other places to go too, if they hate humans, Lluabraight in
>Rjurik for instance, where the captain of the armies IS a member of the
>Ghallie Sidhe.
>

Yes, but elves made a decision, save Rhoubhe, in Deismar: they supported
the gods of "good" (???) against the Ultimate Evil of Azrai. This leads
me to believe, as you agree, that Rhoubhe is not indicitive of elves in
general, and in fact he is becomming more and more unlike most elves in
his nature.


>You make some very strong arguments about Rhuobhe, which I do not dispute.
>His own people hardly recognize him anymore, and he's becoming more Lawful,
>thus making his ability to fight for the elvish cause questionable.
>
>I do however dispute your choice of basis for the BR elves. If any
>resource in the TSR compendium is Tolkien-based, it is the Complete Book of


I was only going back to the basis for AD&D elves. You are correct, I
believe, that BR elves are the first (besides perhaps Athas elves) to get
away from the Tolkein-style. BR elves are more "irish" than in other worlds.

>Absolutely true. Elves will have allot of internal disagreement, but there
>is one group among them that does not, and that is the Ghallie Sidhe. If
>the GS were to declare war on their own, do you think that the other realms
>would abandon their brothers and sisters to retain the good will of the
>humans?

Well, I really have a hard time thinking the Elves would go down the same
path they did before Deismar, gaining allies in the ranks of evil as other
suggested. Though they are not good, they are stounchly opposed to the
domination of Cerilia by evil forces. I look at them as a force for
neutrality in the world.

>
>The strength that the elves have over the human is immortality, and it is
>an advantage, not a hindrance. No they don't adapt as quickly, but they
>have the ability to devote their minds (which are of considerable power, on
>average greater than humanity's) to an issue. Whether they stick to it
>over time is another thing entirely, but Chaotic does not mean that you
>abandon something you're interested in just to do something else... I play
>chaotics most of the time, and my CX characters merely value a set of
>morals that don't include the over-riding society. Chaotics are free
>spirits. They do what they want when they want, but they can devote to an
>issue just as easily as a lawful.

Perhaps on an individual basis, but not as a society. A lawful society is
more able to change due to the leadership's decisions.


>> So, you think they see them as their "equals?" Ok, I'll stop here.
>That's
>> funny.
>
>Why?
>
>At least 1% of the elves alive now were alive at Deismaar. That's allot of
>them. They have the unique perspective of being able to see that immortal
>gods can be killed too. Yes these things are powerful, but where's the
>proof that the clerics power really comes from the gods? Is it really that
>or is it that these powers are able to channel the undeniable power of the
>planes where they dwell and give it to worshippers? And of that 1%, maybe
>1% decided to research the issue, and that lone scholar has been doing it
>for 1500 years...

Elves are not gods. The fact that they think they are on "equal" footing
merely because they are immortal, I find humorous, and indicative of one of
the Great Failings of the elves of BR. It's written that way, folks.

>
>Oh Clay - BTW - this is fun, I've not had a real argument on this list in a
>long time! Keep knocking me down please, because you've already hit some
>stuff that I've been wrong on before!

Well, this whole subject is one of my pet peeves. I am sick of non-humans
being the center of attention in other campaign worlds, with parties of
50%+ non-humans in a world with 90% human populations. I am sick of
hearing arguments that humans should have level limits, and that some
non-humans should not. It's a game, it's written that way for game
balance. The storylines aught to incorportate the rules into the histories
for plausibility. If you want to play in a game with no humans, go for it.
But I doubt a big-time RPG would sell all that well is people didn't have
humans to fall back on as the primary race, just to have something to base
the role-play on. How do you play an entirely different race without some
kind of comparison to humanity? After all, there are no elves on
modern-day Earth.

- -Clay
chinton@mail.utexas.edu

[Samuel Weiss]

>>I do however dispute your choice of basis for the BR elves. If any
>resource in the TSR compendium is Tolkien-based, it is the Complete Book of


I was only going back to the basis for AD&D elves. You are correct, I
believe, that BR elves are the first (besides perhaps Athas elves) to get
away from the Tolkein-style. BR elves are more "irish" than in other
worlds.<

Say what? I haven't paid much attention to this thread after the first few,
but this definitely caught my eye. AD&D elves Tolkien based? Where on
earth, Oerth, or wherever did you get that idea? Greyhawk elves were never
Tolkien based. Some FR revisionism pushed the "retreating: nonsense, and GH
elves started doing that with FtA (the only Sargent change I really hated,
but it is said he had something bigger in mind). BR elves are the immortal
ones like Tolkien's elves mind you. And the taller than human ones. And
several other characteristics closer to Tolkien elves than mainstream AD&D
elves. Which makes sense seeing as how Tolkien's Elves are Scandanavian and
British Isles derived. Unlike Gygax Elves which are anti-Tolkien because he
didn't want the game to seem like a really cheap rip-off. (As opposed to a
moderate rip-oof with sufficient filing down of serial numbers. Of course,
given the time it was produced, the only way it would have appeared totally
unrelated was if there were no elves, etc. in the game at all. But then it
wouldn't have been as fantasy oriented as he wanted. Oh well.)
Note, most of the above is IMO, although statements have been made by EGG
that he was not as influenced by Tolkien as many people insist.

Samwise

[Clayton F. Hinton]

>

>Say what? I haven't paid much attention to this thread after the first
few,

>but this definitely caught my eye. AD&D elves Tolkien based? Where on

>earth, Oerth, or wherever did you get that idea?


Well, as I am apparently in the company of may Experts of elves in the
fantasy genre, I would like to know where the concept of long-lived,
tall, ancient race of highly magical, intelligent, and powerful creatures
(but not as silly as Sprites and Brownies) came from. If not Tolkien,
then where? I am under the impression that Gygax's elves are more
similar to Tolkien's elves than they are to the fairies of the various
myths, of which I am not completely familiar (which is why I ask).


Greyhawk elves were never

>Tolkien based.


Then what WERE they based on? Are you saying that they are completely
unique?


Some FR revisionism pushed the "retreating: nonsense, and GH

>elves started doing that with FtA (the only Sargent change I really
hated,

>but it is said he had something bigger in mind). BR elves are the
immortal

>ones like Tolkien's elves mind you.


Yes, but they are not the children of the gods, as they are in so many
other worlds (including Middle-Earth). They are an interesting mix,
somewhat unique, but obviously taking their many traits from other
stories and campaigns. They have the physical characteristics of Tolkien
elves (tall, pass w/out trace, immortal, good mages,
etc.), with the attitude of the most Celtic elves yet in AD&D (neutral,
very dangerous to man, heathen).


And the taller than human ones. And

>several other characteristics closer to Tolkien elves than mainstream
AD&D

>elves. Which makes sense seeing as how Tolkien's Elves are Scandanavian
and

>British Isles derived. Unlike Gygax Elves which are anti-Tolkien because
he

>didn't want the game to seem like a really cheap rip-off. (As opposed to
a

>moderate rip-oof with sufficient filing down of serial numbers. Of
course,

>given the time it was produced, the only way it would have appeared
totally

>unrelated was if there were no elves, etc. in the game at all. But then
it

>wouldn't have been as fantasy oriented as he wanted. Oh well.)


I see we really don't disagree that much...I simply think the attitude,
worldview, and "place" of "standard" (SECOND EDITION, not EGG!!!) elves
is more similar to Tolkien than it is for BR elves.


>Note, most of the above is IMO, although statements have been made by
EGG

>that he was not as influenced by Tolkien as many people insist.


Well, I would actually believe those statements, as E. Gary Gygax is very
well versed in mythology and history (as many
former-insurance-agents-turned-something-else are). However, the game
would not have taken off like it did without elves. Just look at the
resistance I get for pushing the power of humanity over that of
elvenkind, even in a world like BR where elves aren't the "good guys."
Fantasy Gamers are in love with elves...the success of the "no elves!"
Talislanta game is a testement to that (God I love that game!).


Obviously, I'm no expert on elves in literature/folklore. I invite those
of you who are to relate the origin of the Fantasy RPG elves, from
pre-Tolkein to D&D to Birthright AD&D, as best you can. I'll be
listening (reading) attentively.


- -Clay

chinton@mail.utexas.edu

[Samuel Weiss]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDA931.E8B1CCE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Clay rebutted, I expand on my original statement.

Overall, old style AD&D, Gygax Elves were, IMO, closest to the lesser =
faeires of Scandanavian mythologoy, sans longevity. New style, FR, =
Greenwood Elves are closer to the Tolkien model in terms of the retreat =
and certain behaviors towards humans. BR Elves are closest to Tolkien =
Elves in terms of physiology, and closer still to British Isle Elves in =
terms of attitude.=20
Which means I generally agree on points two and three and clarify on =
point one.

Samwise

- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDA931.E8B1CCE0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable









Clay rebutted, I expand on my original statement.
&nbsp;
Overall, old style AD&amp;D, Gygax Elves were, IMO, closest to the =
lesser=20
faeires of Scandanavian mythologoy, sans longevity. New style, FR, =
Greenwood=20
Elves are closer to the Tolkien model in terms of the retreat and =
certain=20
behaviors towards humans. BR Elves are closest to Tolkien Elves in terms =
of=20
physiology, and closer still to British Isle Elves in terms of attitude. =

Which means I generally agree on points two and three and clarify =
on point=20
one.
&nbsp;
Samwise

- ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01BDA931.E8B1CCE0--

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 98-07-06 13:38:10 EDT, Clay wrote:

> Obviously, I'm no expert on elves in literature/folklore.

Near as I could tell from that last post (it was kinda long) the only thing
you were asking was, "If it didn't come from Tolkien, where did it come from?"

I had to laugh at that one!! Geez, man, do you really think Tolkien made it
all up? Get real!!! Then do some research on Celtic mythology. This is not
the forum for me to rehash it here.

Take care!
DKE

[Clayton F. Hinton]

>
>Near as I could tell from that last post (it was kinda long) the only thing
>you were asking was, "If it didn't come from Tolkien, where did it come
from?"
>
>I had to laugh at that one!! Geez, man, do you really think Tolkien made it
>all up? Get real!!! Then do some research on Celtic mythology. This is not
>the forum for me to rehash it here.

Sorry, too busy with real life to research fairies. But I'd appreciate a
little more info, if you don't mind replying off this list to me. Thanks!

- -Clay Hinton
chinton@mail.utexas.edu

[Tim Nutting]

I'm kind of lost at this point as to what this argument is about.... sorry
guys.

Are we talking core AD&D or are we talking about the Sidhe? We've been
down the Real World track before, and the list has pretty much agreed to
disagree on its importance in a game. As its one of the few models we have
to go by, well...

The only elves we have in our world culture are those of myth and those of
literature. In all cases the elves of myth are Celtic in nature, virtually
no other culture on the planet recognized them (as near as I am aware).
Those of literature were first pioneered by Tolkienn.

The elves of BR, the Sidhe, seem based much more closely on the Celtic myth
than the Tolkienn literature. Whether they are superior to humans or not
depends on who you ask (quite obviously), so lets agree to disagree there,
neh? In my mind an individual elf against and individual human is a gross
mismatch. The Sidhe has many more physical and mental abilities than the
human (no matter the culture here). On the whole the story is a bit
different. As written, the humans beat the elves back, but the books don't
tell us the cost on either side. Take a minute and imagine on a battle per
battle scale, who lost more people, and for what?

The humans, over the course of many generations, probably waged several
small wars, each one with marginally acceptable losses to gain the desired
chunk of land at the desired time. To the elves this was one continuous
mass. I doubt any huge mastermind behind the humans on this one, because
none could have lived long enough. (pre-Deismaar - remember that the
landings were over 500 years before the Shadow War caught up with Cerilia)
Each Ghallie Sidhe lost meant that another had to replace him. We don't
know how long the Sidhe take to reach maturity, but as they are a magical
race rather than biologically long lived, who can really say. I guess its
up to the individual DM on that.

So, while I may have argued the numbers point earlier, I can now see that
the humans could have won through sheer attrition. They had the time and
the mass to do it with.

Now, we argue human superiority on this issue, but I still think in modern
Cerilia that the elves are the superior species, individually and socially.
The elves society has remained whole from its point of inception to the
present, the humans change on a yearly basis. The elven nations, the
hearts, have remained unconquered and uncontested for centuries, and the
rulers have remained in power for huge stretches of time. Internal crime
does not run rampant because each criminal knows that those he offends will
not be punished for taking vengance.

As we Americans can bear witness too, this is not the case in a supposedly
lawful society. OK, point 1 there SUPPOSEDLY LAWFUL SOCIETY. A society's
alignment is based on the attitude presented by the ruling class, not by
the attitude of EVERY person. In the USA we have a society that pledges
loyalty to law and goodnes with every raising of the flag (when some jerk
isn't burning one) but crime is terrible. Why? We are obsessed with the
rights of the criminal, not the rights of the victim.

I want to get clear who we're talking about when we say "the humans". It
is far too broadly based. Each human is an individual. In no world is
this more self evident than Birthright. I ask what at least 50% of the
awnsheghlien armies are composed of? Think about it.

Human Army (mostly): The Gorgon, theChimaera, the Siren, the White Witch,
the Swordhawk, the Raven, the Magian, the Serpent, the Vampire, the
Banshegh.... there may be more, but no books are handy.

Monstrous army: The Hydra, the Sphinx, the Harpy

Non-Human army: The Spider, The Elf, 50% the Gorgon.... prolly more, but
not many more.

So the humans are nearly as divided between the good/evil issue, in fact
more divided, than any other race on the planet.

Well, they are the dominant race, they rule more land, they have more
power, greater numbers, but they are not superior. They will win, but they
still will not be superior, because they are too evil. They are the single
race most responsible for the existance of evil on the continent. (Every
awnshegh except the Elf, Spider, Wolf, Boar, Leviathan, and Kraken (mbe one
or two more) was HUMAN.) The Enemy at the Battle of Deismaar was at least
75% human, and the Southern Empire that will one day swallow the north and
consume this world in Azrai's name: 100% human. In the end the humans
will win, Deismaar will happen again when the a new god rises out of the
south, for there cannot be that much worship power going to nothing.

How many of you really think that there is no god answering the prayers of
the Adurians?

The elves will do what they can, and in the intervening years, the magic
that the elven realms can muster must be staggering. Would the humans be
able to unite in time to stop an elven wave on conqest? Could any regent
unite the Holy Order of Haelyn's Aegis, the Militant Order of Cuiracen, the
Impregnable Heart of Haelyn, the Northern Imperial Temple, the Orthodox
Imperial Temple, the Eastern Temple of Nesirie, the Life and Truth of
Avanalae, the Veiled Sisters, etc. etc. ad nauseum, in time to get their
gods against the elves?

Before Deismaar, the answer would have been yes. The humans were united as
never before, an enemy at their backs, the enemy in their midst, and the
enemy ahead in the form of the elves. In a time when extinction
threatened, there was little resitance to follow the same church. What is
not in Cerilia? The humans are dominant and they know it, and the gods are
immortal and they know it, and they will never again directly manifest,
they're too damn scared to do it. The ultimate of immortals has the most
to lose, and they KNOW they can be killed.

Pleasant Dreams
Tim

[James Ray]

I think the Nordic mythic system also features Elves, calling them "alfar",
and Dwarves (svart-alfar), but I'm not an expert, and only know what I
remember from books I read a LONG time ago :)

- ----------
> The only elves we have in our world culture are those of myth and those
of literature. In all cases the elves of myth are Celtic in nature,
virtually
> no other culture on the planet recognized them (as near as I am aware).