Battlepriest of Moradin

[Athos69]

This is my first ever attempt at writing a PrCl, so any critique that people may have I would appreciate.

The genesis of this stemmed from the proposals in the Chapter 1 discussions and a discussion recommending that the Paladin Class be disallowed to Dwarves. This is intended to give them Holy support on the battlefield.


BATTLEPRIEST OF MORADIN

For over two thousand years, the Karamhul have been locked in an endless struggle with the orogs beneath the depths of the earth. Over the last five hundred years, the Orogs have become more powerful and pressed the Karamhul to the edge of breaking before they managed to push back.
Part of the Karamhul success came in the use of battlepriests – priests of Moradin who chose to take up arms and fight shoulder to shoulder with the soldiers on the front lines, testing their own mettle in combat, seeing to the spiritual needs of the soldiers and striking the fear of the Soulforger in the hearts of the orog vermin.

More to be added and fleshed out later.

Hit Die: d10.

Requirements
To qualify to become a Battlepriest of Moradin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Lead: 6 ranks.
Warcraft: 6 ranks.
Feats: Endurance, Leadership.
Spells: Protection selected as one of the priest's domains.
Class Skills
The battlepriest class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Lead (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Warcraft (Int). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook and Chapter 1 in the d20 Birthright Campaign Setting for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the battlepriest prestige class.
Weapon and Armour Proficiency: battlepriests have proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armour, and all shields.
Spells per Day: A battlepriest continues advancing in divine spellcasting ability. When a battlepriest gains a new even-numbered level, the character gains new divine spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (more frequent remove disease, etc.).
For example, an 8th-level cleric/2nd-level battlepriest gains divine spells per day as if he had risen to 9th level as a cleric. When he next gains a level as a battlepriest, making him an 8th-level cleric/3rd-level battlepriest, his number of divine spells per day does not change; but when he improves his battlepriest level to 4th, he gains divine spells per day as if he had risen to 10th level as a cleric.
If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a battlepriest, the player must decide which class to assign each even-numbered level of battlepriest for the purpose of determining divine spells per day.
Turn or Rebuke Undead[/b] (Su): Levels of battlepriest count toward cleric levels when turning or rebuking undead.
Bonus Domain: Upon adopting the battlepriest class, the character gains access to the domain of War
At fifth level, the battlepriest gains access to the domain of Destruction.
Rally (Ex): A battlepriest who currently is not suffering from a fear effect can use this ability as a free action in a warcard battle. Allied units within one warcard space who are routed and who can hear the battlepriest are allowed an immediate Morale saving throw at DC 15, with a +1 morale bonus per battlepriest level. This ability may be used a number of times equal to the battlepriest's Cha bonus per battle.
Righteous Fury (Ex): When included as part of a Hero unit in a warcard battle, the battlepriest increases the EL of the Hero unit by 3. This bonus persists even if the battlepriest casts a battlespell or performs a function that negates his contribution to the Hero unit.
Heal Unit (Sp): By channelling power directly from Moradin, once per day, the battlepriest may heal 1 hit on the unit he is with. The use of this ability counts as one use of his turn/rebuke ability.
Will of Moradin (Su): Once per day the battlepriest can project a fear aura to the warcard unit with which his unit is engaged. Foes must make a Morale save (DC 10 + battlepriest level + Cha bonus) or be immediately routed.
Iron Resolve (Sp): At 10th level, the battlepriest can channel enough positive energy to the warcard unit he is fighting with that they will continue to fight even after suffering mortal wounds. Using this ability requires concentration and like casting a spell, negates the battlepriest's contribution to the Hero unit he is with. While in use, if the warcard unit takes enough damage to cause its destruction, it ignores the effects of that damage and continues fighting. Unit destruction occurs instantly at -2 hits. When the ability ends the full effects of all damage take effect immediately. Using this ability counts as one use of his turn/rebuke ability.

Additional information:
BAB: as Fighter
Good save: Fort
Bonus Domain: War, Rally @1st
Righteous Fury @3rd
Bonus Domain: Destruction @5th
Heal Unit @7th
Will of Moradin @9th
Iron Resolve @10th

[RaspK_FOG]

I would have both Fortitude and Will as good saves if I were you.

[Don E]

I think the class could benefit from a rewrite where the special abilities have some use outised the mass combat system. E.g. Rally can either give a bonus to fear based saves or possibly allow a reroll of a failed save. Similarly the Heal Unit could have a Mass Cure spell equivalent.

[Athos69]

And here I thought that my proposed special abilities were too powerful.

I wanted to keep the abilities on the warcard scale, not only to give the Dwarves a viable bonus to their combat abilities, but also to keep this PrCl different enough from the standard Warpriest PrCl, which IIRC does not fall under the OGL.

I've made the changes to the Will save as suggested by RaspK, but am not sure how to proceed otherwise, or even if anything else should be changed, lest I throw it all out of balance.

[Don E]

I think the power level of the class depends entirely on the way one allows the powers to be used. Healing one warcard hit per day at no RP cost is an incredibly powerful ability if one allows it to be used with no limitations. The character could heal up to 30 hits for free, the equivalent of 75RP through the usage of the Cure Unit realm spell. While this ability have limited use in a battle, it could dramatically affect the outcome of the war of attrition between the dwarves and orogs.

A fundamental question here is whether one should allow domain scale effects from character abilities. If one does the upcoming battle wizard could IMO easily become a problem balance wise.

[Don E]

Looking at the battle magic rules in the BRCS, which I assume this PrC is aimed for, I noticed that the Warcraft skill is a fundamental one when for spellcasters in battle. An ability that might work well with this class could be to add the class level to any warcraft checks for casting battle magic.

Another would be to allow the battlepriest to use battle magic without the need of units with the 'Magical Support' special training option. This way the battlepriest can fight alongside regular dwarven units without dragging a huge altar along, something that gives me too many Warhammar associations.

[Athos69]

Healing one warcard hit per day at no RP cost is an incredibly powerful ability if one allows it to be used with no limitations. The character could heal up to 30 hits for free, the equivalent of 75RP through the usage of the Cure Unit realm spell. While this ability have limited use in a battle, it could dramatically affect the outcome of the war of attrition between the dwarves and orogs.
Keep in mind Don, that the character doing this would be 13th level, minimum. There are no dwarven characters of that level in the Ruins of Empire. The highest is Ruarch Rockhammer at 12th, but he's the Archprelate of Moradin's Forge , and a pure Cleric to boot. Grimm Greybeard is close, at 10th, but he's split between Cleric and Fighter - a 5/5 split.

I seriously doubt that there has been any Dwarf in history *yet* who has managed to achieve Battlepriest 7, hence the lack of any significant shift in the Dwarf/Orog wars.

Looking at the battle magic rules in the BRCS, which I assume this PrC is aimed for, I noticed that the Warcraft skill is a fundamental one when for spellcasters in battle. An ability that might work well with this class could be to add the class level to any warcraft checks for casting battle magic.

Another would be to allow the battlepriest to use battle magic without the need of units with the 'Magical Support' special training option. This way the battlepriest can fight alongside regular dwarven units without dragging a huge altar along, something that gives me too many Warhammar associations.
I like these ideas. With your permission, I'll include them into Build 2 of the PrCl.

Regards, Mike

[Don E]

Originally posted by Athos69@Jul 26 2004, 06:59 AM
Keep in mind Don, that the character doing this would be 13th level, minimum. There are no dwarven characters of that level in the Ruins of Empire. The highest is Ruarch Rockhammer at 12th, but he's the Archprelate of Moradin's Forge , and a pure Cleric to boot. Grimm Greybeard is close, at 10th, but he's split between Cleric and Fighter - a 5/5 split.

I seriously doubt that there has been any Dwarf in history *yet* who has managed to achieve Battlepriest 7, hence the lack of any significant shift in the Dwarf/Orog wars.

While you argument is a good one with regards to personal power of such a high level character, it is IMO unwise to allow the poersonal power of one indivdual to have too great an effect on the domain level of play. The BRCS conversion have on purpouse (I assume) toned down the power of battle magic, something I think was a good idea. I think the general trend should be that powerful domain effects should be limited to powerful domains, i.e. the requirements of RP, holdings etc. instead of high character levels.

That said, it is your PrC so you're the one to decide :) One suggestion I would recommend you implement is to change the usage from 1/day to X/week. The war moves are all done in weekly rounds, making it a bit easier to adjudicate how the power is to work. One solution would be to allow the use of the power 1/week per three levels of the class. This way the character could have some immediate effect in a battle, without making the effect too great overall.


I like these ideas. With your permission, I'll include them into Build 2 of the PrCl.

You're more than welcome. Any suggestions are meant for use.

[Athos69]

Build 2

BATTLEPRIEST OF MORADIN

For over two thousand years, the Karamhul have been locked in an endless struggle with the orogs beneath the depths of the earth. Over the last five hundred years, the Orogs have become more powerful and pressed the Karamhul to the edge of breaking before they managed to push back.
Part of the Karamhul success came in the use of battlepriests – priests of Moradin who chose to take up arms and fight shoulder to shoulder with the soldiers on the front lines, testing their own mettle in combat, seeing to the spiritual needs of the soldiers and striking the fear of the Soulforger in the hearts of the orog vermin.
More to be added and fleshed out later.
Hit Die: d10.

Requirements
To qualify to become a Battlepriest of Moradin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Lead: 6 ranks.
Warcraft: 6 ranks.
Feats: Battlecaster, Endurance, Leadership.
Spells: Protection selected as one of the priest's domains.

Class Skills
The battlepriest class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Lead (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Warcraft (Int). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook and Chapter 1 in the d20 Birthright Campaign Setting for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the battlepriest prestige class.
Weapon and Armour Proficiency: battlepriests have proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armour, and all shields.
Spells per Day: A battlepriest continues advancing in divine spellcasting ability. When a battlepriest gains a new even-numbered level, the character gains new divine spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (more frequent remove disease, etc.).
For example, an 8th-level cleric/2nd-level battlepriest gains divine spells per day as if he had risen to 9th level as a cleric. When he next gains a level as a battlepriest, making him an 8th-level cleric/3rd-level battlepriest, his number of divine spells per day does not change; but when he improves his battlepriest level to 4th, he gains divine spells per day as if he had risen to 10th level as a cleric.
If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a battlepriest, the player must decide which class to assign each even-numbered level of battlepriest for the purpose of determining divine spells per day.
Turn or Rebuke Undead[/b] (Su): Levels of battlepriest count toward cleric levels when turning or rebuking undead.
Bonus Domain: Upon adopting the battlepriest class, the character gains access to the domain of War
At fifth level, the battlepriest gains access to the domain of Destruction.
Rally (Ex): A battlepriest who currently is not suffering from a fear effect can use this ability as a free action in a warcard battle. Allied units within one warcard space who are routed and who can hear the battlepriest are allowed an immediate Morale saving throw at DC 15, with a +1 morale bonus per battlepriest level. This ability may be used a number of times equal to the battlepriest's Cha bonus per battle.
Enhanced Battlemagic: In additiona to adding the Battlepriest Class level to any Warcraft checks when casting Battlemagic, a battlepriest may cast battlemagic without the support of a specially trained warcard unit.
Righteous Fury (Ex): When included as part of a Hero unit in a warcard battle, the battlepriest increases the EL of the Hero unit by 3. This bonus persists even if the battlepriest casts a battlespell or performs a function that negates his contribution to the Hero unit.
Heal Unit (Sp): By channelling power directly from Moradin, once per warcard scenario, the battlepriest may heal 1 hit on the unit he is with. The use of this ability counts as one use of his turn/rebuke ability.
Will of Moradin (Su): Once per warcard scenario the battlepriest can project a fear aura to the warcard unit with which his unit is engaged. Foes must make a Morale save (DC 10 + battlepriest level + Cha bonus) or be immediately routed.
Iron Resolve (Sp): At 10th level, the battlepriest can channel enough positive energy to the warcard unit he is fighting with that they will continue to fight even after suffering mortal wounds. Using this ability requires concentration and like casting a spell, negates the battlepriest's contribution to the Hero unit he is with. While in use, if the warcard unit takes enough damage to cause its destruction, it ignores the effects of that damage and continues fighting. Unit destruction occurs instantly at -2 hits. When the ability ends the full effects of all damage take effect immediately. This ability can be used once per warcard scenario.

Additional information:
BAB: as Fighter
Good saves: Fort, Will
Bonus Domain: War, Rally, Enhanced Battlemagic @1st
Righteous Fury @3rd
Bonus Domain: Destruction @5th
Heal Unit @7th
Will of Moradin @9th
Iron Resolve @10th

I have limited the use of several abilities to "once per warcard scenario". Since there are only 4 batles/month maximum, that cuts usage from 30/month to 4/month.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Athos69@Jul 25 2004, 08:15 PM

The genesis of this stemmed from the proposals in the Chapter 1 discussions and a discussion recommending that the Paladin Class be disallowed to Dwarves. This is intended to give them Holy support on the battlefield.

There has been exactly one person that has posted opposition to Cerilian dwarves having paladins (i.e., Gary) even though he has posted his opinion frequently it is still only one person's opinion. There have been several others taking the opposite stand.

[geeman]

At 12:16 PM 7/26/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>There has been exactly one person that has posted opposition to Cerilian

>dwarves having paladins (i.e., Gary) even though he has posted his opinion

>frequently it is still only one person`s opinion. There have been several

>others taking the opposite stand.



I feel obliged to point out a couple of things about the above

comments. First, so what? Nothing in the above has any connection to the

validity of the arguments against the inclusion of dwarven paladins. None

of the problems or issues addressed have been refuted yet in any way

whatsoever, and the addition remains unexplained on anything but the most

cursory level. Second, my opinion is, of course, just that of one person,

but since "me too" posts are redundant and generally frowned upon the fact

that I`m the only one speaking to the issue is not that big a deal. To put

things in context, the polls that have been used to determine what does and

what doesn`t make it into the BRCS have garnered as many as a couple of

dozen votes at best on a site that several thousand people have signed up

on, and that requires only a few clicks.



Gary

[Athos69]

OK, let me sound off on this. This proposed PrCl is something I would do as both an exercise to see if I could actually pull it off, and something that may or may not get included in the Atlas.

I did not write it so that people could get into a pissing match over it -- I wrote it so that I would have something to fall back on in the event that it was decided that Dwarves were forbidden from access to the Paladin class. Even if they are allowed, it should be simple to add them into this PrCl.\

End of mini-rant.

[Don E]

Didn't know it was necessary, but for the record, I second Gary's motion of no paladins of Moradin.
That said I think the Battlepriest PrC, which was the topic of discussion here, is a perfectly viable option in either case. IMO it fills an entirely different niche than any paladin would, focusing more on regular warfare as opposed to the individual quest of seeking out evil that the paladin is so famed for.

[Don E]

I got a few minor issues with the requirements of the class though.
1) This one is kind of obvious IMO. Add a racial requirement of Dwarf. I really don't want to see some cleric of Nesirie running around with this presitge class. :blink:
2) Reduce BAB requirement to +5. That way a cleric won't have to mulitclass with fighter if he wants the class at level 7.
3) Change skill requirements to Lead 10 ranks and Warcraft 5 ranks. Again to allow a 7th levl cleric to take the class.
4) Feats. Change Endurance for Combat Casting. If the character is to cast battle magic without the protection of a dedicated unit I think this is a reasonable requirement. Not only do I personally dislike PrCs that require (IMO) very weak feats as a requirment to justify their powerlevel, but I also don't think it is thematically that fitting. And again the issue of making the class availbable for a 7th level cleric.

[RaspK_FOG]

I would like to question the way you want this class to work if the comments are going to go any further (since I also had some ideas regarding the class requirements): Do you think of this class as a low-to-mid oriented one? If so, reducing the requirements to represent what Don E said would be a good idea; if not, I suggest you increase the requirements to those appropriate for a 10th-level character, but the way you mentioned the levels of the above dwarves makes it seem obvious you regard this prestige class as a low-to-mid level class.
Is this a class every dwarf can get to just by being a cleric? I don't know... Your idea of granting the War domain as a 3rd domain works seamlessly, and the whole class may well not unbalance everything, but I feel that it would be best if took a closer look at your goal: should this be a cleric-based only class, or should it be a majorly-cleric-minorly-fighter-based class?

[Athos69]

Don:

1) Since only Dwarves can be Clerics of Moradin, I thought that restricting it to Dwarves would be redundant.
2) My concept was to have it as a spinoff of a multiclass Cleric/Fighter, heavier on the Cleric part. The idea was that once a Cleric heard the calling of battle, he would spend some time in service of the Kingdom. Conversely if a Fighter heard the calling of Moradin, he could serve in the fashion he knows best.
3,4) Excellent ideas. What do you think of adding the requirement for proficiency in any Martial weapon? This would force a level of Fighter, or at least cost a feat...

RaspK:

This is definately a low-mid PrCl. I'd like this to be a Cl/Ftr type of class, with a heavy emphasis on the Cleric side of things, but a manditory element of the Fighter in there somewhere.

[RaspK_FOG]

OK, me proposal is that you include BOTH Endurance AND Combat Casting. Furthermore, I believe that a weapon proficiency feat requirement is not that good, since it greatly reduces the importance of the War domain granted by the class, since few people ever carry more than 3 weapons: 1 melee weapon that they personally prefer over all others.
1 ranged weapon, "just in case".
1 secondary weapon, "because you can never be too well prepared".

I suppose that one of those neat master feats would fit the bill just perfect; since it's only a few hours I have slept, my mind does not help me a lot, but I think there is one of these that applies on Lead, right? Great Leader something, I think?

Oh well, not focused enough to remember right now...

And the base attack requirement of +5 Don E proposed... I don't know, Don, but I think that an approach closer to "a few fighter levels, let the rest be cleric levels" not only does not hurt, it also suits dwarves a lot! I mean, they really are militant and all, and topping that with the fact that fighter levels never hurt but are always helpful really makes a difference...

For example, when it comes to BAB requirements, a warrior-classed level never hurts! In fact, since warrior classes always increase your BAB whenever you take a level in them, they even help reach such requirements.

Furthermore, while I realise why one would like dwarven clerics of Moradin to be able to take the prestige class without resorting to multi-classing, I also see a good reason to say that they HAVE to mutli-class: it gives a character a certain flavour; in this case, even though clerics are war-ready and dwarven clerics even more so, having a few fighter or other warrior-class levels really helps build this feel of: "I am no mere cleric, I am a Battle-Priest, and I sing the chants and prayers passed down to the members of our reverent church by Moradin in visions of victory over these foul beasts, the orog-kin! And I shall spill my blood along with my brethren in glorious rejoice as a lay down more and more of their filthy numbers!"

[Osprey]

Athos: I like the prestige class concept and general form.

Here's what I'd like to see, however:

WAR should be a general domain of Moradin in Cerilia, since it seems Cerilian dwarves are highly martial but don't have Clangedin Silverbeard as a god of war, unlike their dwarven counterparts in FR or Greyhawk.

That being the case, I'd expect a Battle Priest to have the War domain as a requirement for the PrC. That, in fact, would be the single most exclusive requirement, along with being a priest of Moradin.

I also don't think Destruction is an appropriate domain for priests of Moradin. Doesn't fit a LG deity very well IMO. Strength or Earth would be better.

The other option is to simply grant a bonus domain of the player's choice from among Moradin's available ones. I'm not real familiar with the Complete Divine new domains yet, so can't vouch for or against them, other than that the current War Priest bonus domain is undead-specific and not very suitable for dwarves.

On that note, however: it also doesn't mesh as well with our dwarven battle priest that the PrC levels keep stacking with their turning levels. If they get 2 high saves and a high BAB, then tone that aspect down so that caster level and turning level advance together (once per 2 levels of the PrC). I just don't see dwarven clerics being as specifically opposed to undead, and figure this is just a carryover from your conversion from War Priest in Complete Divine.

Osprey

[Don E]

Originally posted by Athos69@Jul 27 2004, 07:42 AM
1) Since only Dwarves can be Clerics of Moradin, I thought that restricting it to Dwarves would be redundant.

That depends entirely on how you play the game. IMO there is nothing that prevents a human from worshipping Moradin. If you want the class to exclusively be available to dwarven worhsippers of Moradin, then you should include that in the requirements for the class. While flavour text is good, any rules lawyer worth his salt will ensure his halfling cleric of Neisirie takes the class just out of spite.

If you want to limit this class to dwarven priests of Moradin (presonally I have him as the head of the Dwarven pantheon with other gods, but that might not be an issue here) you should include the folowing in the requirments:
Race: Dwarf.
Special: Must have Moradin as a patron deity.

[Don E]

On the issue of extra feats and BAB requirements I do not agree. While it might be thematically cool to require dwarves to take levels as fighter, I believe in the spirit of choice. If you have one set requirement that can only be met at the minimum level by a certain selection of classes you are no longer creating a prestige class, but in effect a core class. It is my opinion that a prestige class should be so flexible that it can be filled be a range of characters. While the Battlepriest of Moradin is a very narrow concept, I don't see any reason why a pure cleric shouldn't be allowed to take the class. I am more disinclined to see a cleric 1/fighter 6 take the class, as the powers available to the character is drastically out of proportion to the regular spells at the character's disposal.

IMO the class would be better suited if one changed the spell requirements to be 2nd level divine spells. That way it could be accessed by pure clerics, paladins, and cleric/fighters. Similarly the feat and skill requirements should be so that any of the abovve could take the class after 7th level.

[RaspK_FOG]

The concept is actually not requiring a set of classes and levels in these classes, but ensuring how these things play out together. For example, a common way to have prestige classes work is making it easy for a class combination to pick it up, while simple characters have a harder time doing so; BAB, BSB, and feat requirements can be met by most characters with little difficulty if choosing your path early on - it's just that others will have an easier time doing the exact same thing!

[Don E]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Jul 28 2004, 09:00 AM
The concept is actually not requiring a set of classes and levels in these classes, but ensuring how these things play out together.
Exactly. The problem here is that the suggestion to add even more feats to the requirements would force the class to more or less only be available to the fighter/cleric. If one set the class to be 'available' at 7th level, it should IMO be possible to take the class based on different class choice.

[RaspK_FOG]

What I meant is that, for example, a cleric/fighter should be able to take it at 7th level while a pure cleric should have a harder time, being unable to take the class until he reaches, let's say, 10th level.

[Don E]

I guess this is where I fundamentally disagree with you with regards to this class. As the class has mostly supernatural/spell like abilities I think it should be more fitting for a cleric than a fighter.

I would also like to add that requiring the feats Battlecaster, Combat Casting, Endurance and Leadership would require the character to be at least 9th level as none of the above feats are fighter feats. (Unless one were to find some prestige class at lower levels that gave the relevant feats.) With this combination it is actually the Ranger/Cleric character who is the only capable of taking this class at 7th level, something I think might be contrary to the intentions of the class.

[RaspK_FOG]

I though Endurance was a [Fighter] feat? Hmm... let me check it out.

You are right: I seem to get confused with the whole thing with rangers getting it for free... Oh well, I guess Improved Toughness is not available, being a Complete Warrior feat and all, and Toughness seems too... blerg? Something like that.

[Athos69]

Yes Don, Raspk has the idea -- the class is 'easier' for a Figher/Cleric to achieve, but there will be nothing that prevents a pure Cleric or a Paladin from adopting this class -- they will just have a few extra levels to go before they can adopt it. It isn't without precedent in PrCls. There are some PrCls that either require multiclassing, or it makes lfe alot easier if you do...

Endurance (in BR at least) can be taken as a 'virtual' feat if one has the Blood ability Endurance. It's a minor power, and is avilable to any derivation, save Azrai and Vorynn. The vast majority of listed Dwarves have Andurias as a derivation...

Keep the ideas coming -- I'm sorting through them all in my brain...

[destowe]

I would like to keep the skills for both Lead and Warcraft kept at +6.

With fighters and clerics only receiving 2+int, these would have to be the only choices taken from 1st level to qualify by 7th level.

This means these characters would be lacking in things like concentration and K(relgion).

[RaspK_FOG]

While many players would really strive for such a character, having them "pay" 12 skill points on these two skills by 7th level, whereas the average dwarven cleric or fighter only has about 20 skill points, is a bit too much. I mean, such a character would have very few Concentration and Knowledge (religion) ranks, which immediately makes the whole thing wrong!

[Osprey]

While many players would really strive for such a character, having them "pay" 12 skill points on these two skills by 7th level, whereas the average dwarven cleric or fighter only has about 20 skill points, is a bit too much. I mean, such a character would have very few Concentration and Knowledge (religion) ranks, which immediately makes the whole thing wrong!

I agree that Concentration should be a key skill for any battle caster. K/Religion, however?!? I don't think theology is all that crucial of a skill for combat-oriented priests. More often than not, I'd expect them to accept a very simplified theology that fits well with a black-and-white kil the infidels sort of theology, which needs only a rank or so of K/Rligion to justify. Just think of fundamentalists (of any religion)...how many ranks would YOU give them in theology? :lol:

If I were to make a Battlepriest PrC, I would make Concentration and Warcraft the key skills. But that's just me.

Cheers!

Osprey

[RaspK_FOG]

I generally believe that prestige classes that are accessible from low levels are more rounded up if they require you to have a few ranks in various skills. For example, the aforementioned 4 skills (Concentration, Lead, Knowledge [religion], Warcraft) could be required, but I agree with the consensus that Knowledge (religion) becomes secondary to such characters.

How about 5 ranks in each of these 3 skills - Concentration, Lead, and Warcraft? Plus maybe 3 ranks in Knowledge (religion)?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Aug 4 2004, 08:57 AM
I generally believe that prestige classes that are accessible from low levels are more rounded up if they require you to have a few ranks in various skills. For example, the aforementioned 4 skills (Concentration, Lead, Knowledge [religion], Warcraft) could be required, but I agree with the consensus that Knowledge (religion) becomes secondary to such characters.

How about 5 ranks in each of these 3 skills - Concentration, Lead, and Warcraft? Plus maybe 3 ranks in Knowledge (religion)?
Need to ensure that a character cannot qualify prior to 5th level (a DMG requirement) regardless of class combination -which means a character has to be 6th level when the prestige class can first be taken. Need to be careful when throwing in a several skills with low rank requirements because of this.

[Athos69]

Gentlemen (and Ladies, if there are any present);

I've been quite busy and preoccupied for the last couple of weeks. I'll try to have a revision of this PrCl up and here by this evening (Pacific time).

Until then, thanks for the suggestions!

[Athos69]

Originally posted by Osprey@Aug 3 2004, 08:57 PM
K/Religion, however?!? I don't think theology is all that crucial of a skill for combat-oriented priests. More often than not, I'd expect them to accept a very simplified theology that fits well with a black-and-white kil the infidels sort of theology, which needs only a rank or so of K/Rligion to justify. Just think of fundamentalists (of any religion)...how many ranks would YOU give them in theology?
Good point Osprey, but consider that the priest is 'unlocking' a Domain that is not normally available to priests of Moradin. You need to be able to make a certain leap of knowledge to be able to do something like this.

[Athos69]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Aug 4 2004, 08:54 AM
Need to ensure that a character cannot qualify prior to 5th level (a DMG requirement) regardless of class combination -which means a character has to be 6th level when the prestige class can first be taken. Need to be careful when throwing in a several skills with low rank requirements because of this.
That's what a +6 BAB does. :)

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Athos69+Aug 4 2004, 03:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Athos69 @ Aug 4 2004, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-irdeggman@Aug 4 2004, 08:54 AM
Need to ensure that a character cannot qualify prior to 5th level (a DMG requirement) regardless of class combination -which means a character has to be 6th level when the prestige class can first be taken. Need to be careful when throwing in a several skills with low rank requirements because of this.
That&#39;s what a +6 BAB does. :) [/b][/quote]
I wasn&#39;t sure if you going to change that since you had expressed a theme of it being primarily a cleric based prestige class, which would have lowered the BAB.

[Osprey]

Good point Osprey, but consider that the priest is &#39;unlocking&#39; a Domain that is not normally available to priests of Moradin. You need to be able to make a certain leap of knowledge to be able to do something like this.

Are you referring to the War domain? This is a case where I think we need to consider spirtuality vs. theology. To assume they are the same I think is erroneous. A deep grasp of theology can leave a person spiritually barren; a deeply spiritual person can have very little grasp of formal theology (K/Religion). The two aren&#39;t really the same thing at all.

That being said, I think unlocking a domain is more of a reflection of the spirtual growth of a priest of Moradin in gaining a special connection to his deity. To me, this is all about acquiring a connection to the warrior aspect of Moradin, and this comes more through a practice of divine magic (i.e., being a cleric and casting divine spells, channeling divine energy) and the arts of warfare than through studying secret lore of Moradin and his religion. Remember, a cleric doesn&#39;t need a single rank of K/Religion to practice divine magic. An important point to keep in mind when developing prestige classes for them.

Osprey

[Athos69]

Here we go -- Mk. III

BATTLEPRIEST OF MORADIN

For over two thousand years, the Karamhul have been locked in an endless struggle with the orogs beneath the depths of the earth. Over the last five hundred years, the Orogs have become more powerful and pressed the Karamhul to the edge of breaking before they managed to push back.
Part of the Karamhul success came in the use of battlepriests – priests of Moradin who chose to take up arms and fight shoulder to shoulder with the soldiers on the front lines, testing their own mettle in combat, seeing to the spiritual needs of the soldiers and striking the fear of the Soulforger in the hearts of the orog vermin.
Hit Die: d10.

Requirements
To qualify to become a Battlepriest of Moradin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Race: Dwarf (Karamhul)
Base Attack Bonus: +6.
Skills: Lead: 5 ranks.
Warcraft: 5 ranks.
Concentration: 5 ranks.
Feats: Combat Casting, Endurance, Leadership.
Spells: Ability to cast 2nd level Divine spells.
Special: Must have Moradin as a patron deity.

Class Skills
The battlepriest class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), Lead (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Warcraft (Int). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player&#39;s Handbook and Chapter 1 in the d20 Birthright Campaign Setting for skill descriptions.
Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the battlepriest prestige class.
Weapon and Armour Proficiency: battlepriests have proficiency with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armour, and all shields.
Spells per Day: A battlepriest continues advancing in divine spellcasting ability. When a battlepriest gains a new even-numbered level, the character gains new divine spells per day as if he had also gained a level in whatever divine spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (more frequent remove disease, etc.).
For example, an 8th-level cleric/2nd-level battlepriest gains divine spells per day as if he had risen to 9th level as a cleric. When he next gains a level as a battlepriest, making him an 8th-level cleric/3rd-level battlepriest, his number of divine spells per day does not change; but when he improves his battlepriest level to 4th, he gains divine spells per day as if he had risen to 10th level as a cleric.
If a character had more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a battlepriest, the player must decide which class to assign each even-numbered level of battlepriest for the purpose of determining divine spells per day.
Bonus Domain: Upon adopting the battlepriest class, the character gains access to the domain of War.
At fourth level, the battlepriest gains access to the domain of Destruction.
Turn or Rebuke Undead (Su): When turning or rebuking undead, levels of battlepriest do not count toward cleric levels.
Rally (Ex): A battlepriest who currently is not suffering from a fear effect can use this ability as a free action in a warcard battle. Allied units within one warcard space who are routed and who can hear the battlepriest are allowed an immediate Morale saving throw at DC 15, with a +1 morale bonus per battlepriest level. This ability may be used a number of times equal to the battlepriest&#39;s Cha bonus per battle.
Enhanced Battlemagic: In addition to adding the Battlepriest Class level to any Warcraft checks when casting Battlemagic, a battlepriest may cast battlemagic without the support of a specially trained warcard unit.
Righteous Fury (Ex): When included as part of a Hero unit in a warcard battle, the battlepriest increases the EL of the Hero unit by 3. This bonus persists even if the battlepriest casts a battlespell or performs a function that negates his contribution to the Hero unit.
Heal Unit (Sp): By channelling power directly from Moradin, once per day, the battlepriest may heal 1 hit on the unit he is with. The use of this ability counts as one use of his turn/rebuke ability.
Will of Moradin (Su): Once per day the battlepriest can project a fear aura to the warcard unit with which his unit is engaged. Foes must make a Morale save (DC 10 + battlepriest level + Cha bonus) or be immediately routed.
Iron Resolve (Sp): At 10th level, the battlepriest can channel enough positive energy to the warcard unit he is fighting with that they will continue to fight even after suffering mortal wounds. Using this ability requires concentration and like casting a spell, negates the battlepriest&#39;s contribution to the Hero unit he is with. While in use, if the warcard unit takes enough damage to cause its destruction, it ignores the effects of that damage and continues fighting. Unit destruction occurs instantly at -2 hits. When the ability ends the full effects of all damage take effect immediately. Using this ability counts as one use of his turn/rebuke ability.

Notes: I did not change the Destruction bonus Domain, because I see this class as the embodiment of Moradin being pissed off, and defending his children by any means at his disposal. I also don’t have the ability to change Chapter 4 and the domains of the Gods. I nixed any progression of turning abilities, since it was rightly pointed out that the Dwarves don’t concern themselves much with Air elementals, rogue Earth elementals or undead, and the number of turning attempts (which is important to this class) doesn’t increase with level.

Additional information:
BAB: as Fighter
Good saves: Fort, Will
Bonus Domain: War, Rally, Enhanced Battlemagic @1st
Righteous Fury @3rd
Bonus Domain: Destruction @5th
Heal Unit @7th
Will of Moradin @9th
Iron Resolve @10th
+1 spellcasting level at every even level.

[Athos69]

Originally posted by Osprey@Aug 4 2004, 03:21 PM
To me, this is all about acquiring a connection to the warrior aspect of Moradin, and this comes more through a practice of divine magic (i.e., being a cleric and casting divine spells, channeling divine energy) and the arts of warfare than through studying secret lore of Moradin and his religion. Remember, a cleric doesn&#39;t need a single rank of K/Religion to practice divine magic. An important point to keep in mind when developing prestige classes for them.

Osprey
Excellent point, and *just* in the nick of time for me to edit :)

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Aug 4 2004, 05:21 PM
Remember, a cleric doesn&#39;t need a single rank of K/Religion to practice divine magic. An important point to keep in mind when developing prestige classes for them.

Osprey
But if he is going to cast realm spells he does. Something to keep in mind.

[Athos69]

Very true Duane. I se this PrCl more as a Tactical spellcaster, as opposed to a Strategic or Skirmish level one. It&#39;s a niche that BR alludes to, but doesn&#39;t really address too well, save in a clumsy format: You need a large body of troops who have to drop everything to make sure that you can get your spell off....

Of course, the current thinking is that you can&#39;t do Tactical well, but are good at Skirmish or Strategic. The aim here is to produce a caster capable of doing great things on the Tactical scale, but sacrificing Skirmish and Strategic ability (due to the slowed spell progression)

[Osprey]

But if he is going to cast realm spells he does. Something to keep in mind.

Well, Athos illustrated the focus of the class really well. Just wanted to point out too that K/Religion remains a class skill for the battlepriest, so there&#39;s no reason they can&#39;t keep progressing as realm casters if they are blooded temple regents. A temple regent-focused PrC would definintely have some ranks of K/Religion as a requirement.

[Athos69]

So I take it that there are no further complaints or glaring errors in this one, and it can be forwarded to Ian Hoskins and Chris Linebarger then?

[Athos69]

My big question is: Does this need to go to a Sanctioning vote, or can it just be sent to Ian and Chris?

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Athos69@Aug 8 2004, 03:56 PM
My big question is: Does this need to go to a Sanctioning vote, or can it just be sent to Ian and Chris?
Just send it to Ian and Chris.

They will work it in and then when the appropriate section of the Atlas comes out it will get voted on then.

[Athos69]

thx.

[Don E]

Originally posted by Athos69@Aug 8 2004, 02:47 AM
So I take it that there are no further complaints or glaring errors in this one, and it can be forwarded to Ian Hoskins and Chris Linebarger then?
I disagree with the change where Battlecaster have been removed as a requirement to take the class. This is in IMO a defining feature of the class, and if not a requirement it should be a first level ability of the class.