Contesting sources (kinda long)

[James Ray]

My posting is double-spaced from the original question...

> From: Gary V. Foss
> I have a question that I'd like to pose to everyone to get your opinions
on it:
>
> >From what I can tell there is no problem whatever with anyone contesting
a source holding. The landed regent can do it, a regent with a law, guild
or temple holding can as well, just like the source holder can contest any
other holding in a province. Fair's fair. Even Steven.> >
> But how? >

How - well, thats a difficult question to answer, at least in game terms.
Another Regent can simply be assumed to have asserted HIS connection to the
land to a greater extent than the Mage has, at least for the duration of
that particular Action Round.

> I mean, source holdings are kind of strange, esoteric magical things,
right? How would you give a "realistic" explanation of contesting a source
holding? Contesting a guild or a temple or a law holding makes sense.
You could boot out the workers, priests or sheriffs, hammer the doors of
their buildings closed and confiscate all their goodies.>

This is what happens when military units are used to occupy a Province, and
reduce other Holdings there to (0). Occupations of that sort may do one of
several things: a) reduce any/all Law Holdings to (0) b) reduce
any/all Temple Holdings to (0) c) reduce any/all Guild Holdings to (0)
d) reduce any/all Sources by 1. "Contesting" means one Regent or other has
convinced the populace to ignore laws and edicts, disregard the preachings
of a particular Priest, or spend their GPs in another Guild.

> But how does one contest a mage's mystical link with a circle of
standing stones or sylvan meadow?>

By asserting the the strength of their OWN mystical link to the land, and
its people.

> You could say that the contesting regent sends a bunch of guys to knock
down the standing stones or construct a strip mall in the center of the
meadow, right? But isn't that more like despoiling the source rather than
contesting it?>

Yes - it wouild require a military occupation to accomplish that, and that
would be the only action the units inolved could take that Action Round.

> I mean, contesting a source leaves the source itself intact. Another
mage can come along to the same source and rule it up again, right?>

Contesting it the FIRST time does, yes. It remains contested until one of
a few possible Actions are taken to resolve the Contest. If a Contested
holding (even a Source) is successfully contested a SECOND time (before the
CONTEST is resolved favorably to the controlling regent), the owner loses
the Holding, and its slots become uncontrolled. The particular Source in
question becomes inert, that is, a level (0), and any Ley lines originating
from it disappear. Another Mage can Rule his/her OWN Source up, but cannot
Contest for ownership of the entire Source.

Stone tipping and strip mall construction would
> seem to be the kinds of things that would reduce the source level of a
province from 0/7 to 0/6 doesn't it?>

Hmmm - 0/7 and 0/6 are methods of expressing a Province's Rating. That
second number refers to the magical potential of the Province. Stone
tipping and construction require OTHER Actions, they are not
automatic. The only way to reduce the Magical Potential of a Province, is
to Rule it up a Level of Province Rating, from 0/7 to 1/6. Any or all
Source holders could oppose this attempt, however.

> What do you guys think?>

I think you should lQQk this over, and tell me if I've helped you come to a
solution, or ask some more questions along these lines. The rules in the
BR Rulebook are a little TOO straightforward...they WERE, after all,
codified by people who had spent aLONG time playtesting them, and were
written down in as simplified terms as they could manage, which is
unfortunate, because examples would have been a lot better for our purposes
:) Anybody else get to see the notes from the playtest sessions?

> Gary

[Jan Arnoldus]

At 07:00 15-08-98 -0500, you wrote:

>> Stone tipping and strip mall construction would
>> seem to be the kinds of things that would reduce the source level of a
>> province from 0/7 to 0/6 doesn't it?>
>
>Hmmm - 0/7 and 0/6 are methods of expressing a Province's Rating. That
>second number refers to the magical potential of the Province. Stone
>tipping and construction require OTHER Actions, they are not
>automatic. The only way to reduce the Magical Potential of a Province, is
>to Rule it up a Level of Province Rating, from 0/7 to 1/6. Any or all
>Source holders could oppose this attempt, however.
>
As you say it is important to differentiate between the province's magic
rating as expressed in */MR and the level of the source.
By stone tipping and strip mall construction at the physical site of the
source manifestation the source level could be negatively influenced. This
doesn't mean that the province rating would be effected.
You could compare it to a set of sprinklers you use to water a footbal field.
A wizard who holds a source has located a sprinkler and turned it on by
ruling his source he discovers how he can turn the knob a little further so
that more water (mebhaighl) can flow through the sprinkler (source).
When some one tries to contest the sprinkler(source) he tries to disrupt the
waterflow through the pipes. This means that less water will flow to the
sprinkler used by the wizard.
It doesn't mean that there is no water anymore, when somebody locates
another potential source site he can start a source there and still rule it
up to the full potential of the province.

It is only when somebody destroys the entire network of waterlines (or major
parts of it) that the source potential of the province goes down this
happens most often as a result of increased population but it can also
happen as a result of other actions.
For example the Basilisk has such toxic emanations that the entire
countryside has been polluted giving him a 1/0, a 1/0 and a 0/0 province.

Jan Arnoldus

[Gary V. Foss]

Jan Arnoldus wrote:

> At 07:00 15-08-98 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >> Stone tipping and strip mall construction would
> >> seem to be the kinds of things that would reduce the source level of a
> >> province from 0/7 to 0/6 doesn't it?>
> >
> >Hmmm - 0/7 and 0/6 are methods of expressing a Province's Rating. That
> >second number refers to the magical potential of the Province. Stone
> >tipping and construction require OTHER Actions, they are not
> >automatic. The only way to reduce the Magical Potential of a Province, is
> >to Rule it up a Level of Province Rating, from 0/7 to 1/6. Any or all
> >Source holders could oppose this attempt, however.
> >
> As you say it is important to differentiate between the province's magic
> rating as expressed in */MR and the level of the source.
> By stone tipping and strip mall construction at the physical site of the
> source manifestation the source level could be negatively influenced. This
> doesn't mean that the province rating would be effected.

> You could compare it to a set of sprinklers you use to water a footbal field.
> A wizard who holds a source has located a sprinkler and turned it on by
> ruling his source he discovers how he can turn the knob a little further so
> that more water (mebhaighl) can flow through the sprinkler (source).
> When some one tries to contest the sprinkler(source) he tries to disrupt the
> waterflow through the pipes. This means that less water will flow to the
> sprinkler used by the wizard.
> It doesn't mean that there is no water anymore, when somebody locates
> another potential source site he can start a source there and still rule it
> up to the full potential of the province.
>
> It is only when somebody destroys the entire network of waterlines (or major
> parts of it) that the source potential of the province goes down this
> happens most often as a result of increased population but it can also
> happen as a result of other actions.
> For example the Basilisk has such toxic emanations that the entire
> countryside has been polluted giving him a 1/0, a 1/0 and a 0/0 province.

I think my original example of strip mall construction is not quite as apt as the
stone-tipping part of the analogy.... Strip mall construction sounds more like
building up the province, for which there are already established rules.... I
meant something more along the lines of poisoning sources which, as you point
out, would be handled more like the way a Death Plague spell depopulates an area
without affecting the source. Better analogies would probably be cutting down
the ancient oak, damming the mighty river or sealing the crystal cave that
provides the mage with his source. Sorry about the lousy strip-mall example. I
think I just really wanted a frozen yogurt or something when I wrote it....

What I was after, however, was a role-playing interpretation of the process of
contesting a source holding, which is why stone-tipping seems more apt. If I
want my players to role-play out the action, I need them to tell me what they are
doing so I can gauge it's effectiveness and how a mage might respond.

James presented a good "realistic" method or, at least, the one that makes the
most sense given the context of sources, regency, bloodlines, etc. I can't come
up wiith a better explanation than a battle of wills between regents, as the
physical aspects of sources are rather vague, unlike guilds, law and temple
holdings.

I suppose on a certain level this kind of psychic battle must occur for any
action involving regency. Otherwise, how are the regents applying various
amounts of regency points to an action or attuning their bloodline to new
provinces, etc.? The actual process of concentration need not be anything as
theatrical as a psychic duel of the kind psionics might have, but on some level
there has to be a mental effort to direct the regency points involved.

This still doesn't leave me with much of a way to tell players to act out their
character's actions.... I like to make them role-play all their actions, so
that's what I'm after here.

Gary

[James Ray]

- ----------
> From: Gary V. Foss
> What I was after, however, was a role-playing interpretation of the
process of contesting a source holding, which is why stone-tipping seems
more apt. If I want my players to role-play out the action, I need them to
tell me what they are doing so I can gauge it's effectiveness and how a
mage might respond.>

Ahhh, I see :) "Sources" are defined by "manifestations", if you look
closely at Book of Magecraft. Sources arent actual material things that
the Mage builds to trap the mebhaighl, they are places where mebhaighl is
already concentrating. When a Mage Rules a Source (1) to a Source (2), he
is actually using his own mystical powers to make HIS Source attract more
of a Province's meibhaighl. He might spend a whole month out near his
manifestation, aerating the soil near the old oak's roots, or using his
spells to attract more bees to the flowers in the meadows (pollenation, ya
know :), or any manner of other things that might enhance the area.


> I can't come up wiith a better explanation than a battle of wills between
regents, as the physical aspects of sources are rather vague, unlike
guilds, law and temple holdings.>

Hmm - I see your point. While the Guild-holder can have a sale or
something, and the Priest can have a revival or whatever, it IS difficult
to explain what the Mage is doing for the month he spends trying to Contest
the rival's Source. A Source's actual manifestation, however, is immune to
most physical damage - even military units can only lower the level of a
Source by a factor of (1) per Action Round. Some ideas:

1) "Conjuring" something that obstructs the flow of mebhaighl to the
rival's Source. Not a SERIOUS obstruction, remember that all it takes is a
successful Rule Action to "dispel" the obstruction.

2) Altering the weather slightly, so maybe the flowers in his meadow dont
blossom, the brooks and streams get all muddy, etc

3) Anything that might affect the wildlife in the area could have a
detrimental effect on the Source's ability to collect mebhaighl. Not
enough bunnies, too many deer, or something to that effect.

Sources ARE places of pristine (or nearly so) beauty, so anything that
might upset the "natural balance" would probably be enough, and "all" the
rival Mage has to do is fix it, somehow