Heart Pierce

[Whalejudge@aol.co]

I've been wondering for a while just what constitutes the "killing blow"
piercing of the heart required for bloodtheft. Does there need to be some
sort of called shot? Would not such a hit actually kill the person,
regardless of hit points? Would a stabbing through the heart one an opponent
down below 0 hp but not yet at negative 10 do? I'm about to start my first BR
campaign, so I'd like to know.

[Kai Beste]

> I've been wondering for a while just what constitutes the "killing blow"
> piercing of the heart required for bloodtheft. Does there need to be some
> sort of called shot? Would not such a hit actually kill the person,
> regardless of hit points? Would a stabbing through the heart one an opponent
>
> down below 0 hp but not yet at negative 10 do? I'm about to start my first B
> R
> campaign, so I'd like to know.

Basically, a called shot (-4 to hit) is required to pierce an
opponent through the heart. This attack has to bring the victim down
to 0 or less hitpoints. Only then can bloodtheft occur. Stabbing a
defenseless (bound, held etc.) victim through the heart will kill him
or her, and bloodtheft can occur (remember killing defenseless people
for their blood is an evil act). Stabbing somebody through the heart
in combat is much more difficult, as the victim will probably try to
avoid the blow. If the damage fails to kill the victim, he or she has
probably turned aside at the last possible moment, too late to avoid
the blow, but just enough to make the blow miss the heart. Only
normal damage is allied.
If the "death's door" rule (characters are unconscious at 0hp and die
at - 10) is in play I'd rule that as long as somebody is still
breathing (above -10) bloodtheft can occur.

hope this helps

Kai

[Aaron Sanderson]

>I've been wondering for a while just what constitutes the "killing
blow"
>piercing of the heart required for bloodtheft. Does there need to be
some
>sort of called shot? Would not such a hit actually kill the person,
>regardless of hit points? Would a stabbing through the heart one an
opponent
>down below 0 hp but not yet at negative 10 do? I'm about to start my
first BR
>campaign, so I'd like to know.

Depends on the DM. In our campaign being stabbed through the heart
means that you are stabbed through the heart and life ends, regardless
of hp. The way I see hp is that it is a measure of your 'combat'
survival skills. However, being crushed, covered in liquid metal, being
beheaded or stabbed through the heart goes around a person's normal hp.

just my 2 ep,
AmS.


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[Tim Nutting]

| I've been wondering for a while just what constitutes the "killing blow"
| piercing of the heart required for bloodtheft. Does there need to be some
| sort of called shot? Would not such a hit actually kill the person,
| regardless of hit points? Would a stabbing through the heart one an opponent
| down below 0 hp but not yet at negative 10 do? I'm about to start my first
BR
| campaign, so I'd like to know.

Reduced to the most basic principals, the sword can be used to attack in two
fashions, the stab/thrust, and the slash/cut. There are thousands of
variations on moves and patterns that have been implemented in the last
two-and-a-half millenia that mankind has been attempting to kill one another
with these weapons, but in essence that is about it.

The biggest differences between the two are this:
The stab kills the target. (note that it only takes 3" of blade to kill a man)
The cut stops the fight.

Contrary to Hollywood (some of them get it right) when a person is run through,
they do not drop and die neatly. However, they are just as certainly dead then
and there unless they are tended to as if they were run through a dozen more
times, it just takes a little while. On the other hand, if you put a 4" gash
down a target's arm, the pain is quite intense (usually) and the target will
more than likely withdraw. Granted, this is not allways the case, but it is a
likely turn of events.

I remember a reported case of a female officer being shot through the heart and
being consciouse enough to kill her assailant with her own sidearm. She later
returned to active duty (the details are very long), though it took over a year
to recover from the injuries.

The critical part of the rules in bloodtheft states that the "killing blow"
must be through the heart. So, then, whatever the method (and usually a called
shot would work best), the only way that bloodtheft will happen is if the
victim is allready very close to dying. The rules for "hovering on Death's
door" have been suggested, and that works well. In fact about the only blow
that will kill a person outright, that can be achieved with a sword, is one
that in some way renders the brain inoperable. I suppose that if the blade
were left in the victims heart, then when the victim eventually (a few rounds
later) goes down and actually perished, then bloodtheft would happen.

There is a problem here, though. Allowing specific damage through a critical
hit will destroy your game faster than giving the players 20 wishes each.
After you allow them to run victims through the heart, what is to stop them
from castration and the specific nasty effect, or how about specifically
cutting off their head, or... the list can go on forever, but run it through
and figure out whether you even want to allow that. Trust me, it isn't worth
it. Let the players go through combat normally, and keep track, if the last
blow takes the target below -10 h.p., then the force has killed the injured
victim outright and the spark is lost.

Good luck, and good gaming!
Tim Nutting

[Lee]

In a message dated 98-09-30 11:31:20 EDT, you write:

[The Olesens]

LeeHa1854@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 98-09-30 11:31:20 EDT, you write:
>
> BR
> campaign, so I'd like to know. >>
>
> {lurk mode off}
> I've been running for a while, but the situation has never come up. I think
> I would play it as a called shot (+1 to initiative, -4 to hit, maybe -8 for
> very small target?). It would have to kill, whether you rule that 0 or -10 is
> dead. I would say that once below 0, there might be 1-2 rounds to get in a
> "killing blow." Damage rolls would not be necessary in that case.
>

Perhaps you should have to make a called shot but only deal a certian amount of damage. I
mean wether you have blood spirting out of your heart from a rapier wound or it was
removed by a lance, it doesn't make a diffrence. Even a 45th level fighter would die if
he had no heart (literally, of course). Here is my idea:

Weapon Type Damage Required
Buldeoning/Something 6
Piercing 3
Slashing 5

I have reasons but I don't want to explain, figure it out. I guess you would also have to
make it a -8 to hit. Now to keep people from killing each other on the first blow for
bloodtheft, how about saying you need a -10 called shot but as he weakens (guard lowers)
the penalty reduces.

Just my 2pp (there's one I haven't seen)

Andrew

[Gary V. Foss]

Whalejudge@aol.com wrote:

> I've been wondering for a while just what constitutes the "killing blow"
> piercing of the heart required for bloodtheft. Does there need to be some
> sort of called shot? Would not such a hit actually kill the person,
> regardless of hit points? Would a stabbing through the heart one an opponent
> down below 0 hp but not yet at negative 10 do? I'm about to start my first BR
> campaign, so I'd like to know.

I have two methods of handling this. First, it can be the result of a called shot
(-4 to hit) that does enough damage to reduce the person hit to 0 or less hit
points. I play with the -10 rule, but called shots are exceptions to that rule in
my campaign. A character hit with this kind of called shot is dead instantly.

Second, if the to hit roll is a natural 20 and the damage reduces the person hit
to 0 or less I handle it as a pierced heart. In my non-BR campaign this results
in an "instant death" of various kinds. Head cut off, neck broke, spine snapped,
whatever gruesome demise I feel like extolling in the context of the game. This
is to reflect that sometimes this kind of killing blow would happen without
particular attention being paid by the attacker. In my BR game, however, I almost
always make this attack result in a pierced heart. I think because of the nature
of the BR setting fighting styles studied by scions would tend to emphasize this
kind of attack, so that is the justification for it.

Gary

[The Olesens]

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, The Olesens wrote:

> Besides, how often does bloodtheft occur? I have had it thrice so far
in my 6+ month long
> campaign and both times I, the DM, set it up. It was awhile ago but I
think I ruled they
> had to be at less than 3 hp. If you want to make bloodtheft easier,
try making 0 to -4 hp
> give the victim the condition of dying (losses a hit point every round
unit he passes out
> at -5) so he cannot defend himself so only gets AC from magic and armor
and would count
> tword some to hit + for the PCs.

I've only ever had one bloodtheft attempt by a PC, and that was by
accident. The theif (who had already suggested that they put a wounded
ranger they had encountered and failed to heal out of his misery, and by
the way he'd be happy to do it) was cornered in a fight in a dark room and
was facing a much better opponent. Fortunately, his opponent has just been
surprized out of sleep, and while he had his long sword, he didn't have
any armour on. Any way, the NPC was still quite capable of killing the PC
theif handily (who had lost his short sword, and was now fighting with
only his dagger). Then the player rolled a 20 to hit and rolled maximum
damage, so I made him make a system shock roll and described a suitably
Highlander-esque bloodtheft scene, and he rose about 6 BL points. I did it
mostly because it was a truely dramatic point for it to happen, and
because it advanced the story well--there were already tensions in the
group between the LG fighter and the theif over whether it was ethical to
commit bloodtheft, and I knew that this would through throw fuel into that
fire. And it did, there was some excellent role-playing that night.

I guess what I'm saying is that you should only allow bloodtheft to occur
during dramatically-appropriate moments. A called shot is fine, but I
would only allow it to automatically kill an opponent if it fit into the
dramatic feel of the story, and made sense in the plot (however loosely I
have it defined in my head). This rule is not going to be much help to
those who want a completely universal and mechanistic rule for everything
that happens in every situation, but I find it makes the feel of the
role-playing much more suitable (at least for my tastes).

> On a side note-could a bloodungry sniper attach a string to his arrow
then hit the regent
> who is giving a speach in the heart and drain his blood?

I would like to say that only metal has the properties of being able to
carry the "magnetic effluent" of the blood between two combatants. Perhaps
a few BL points would spill over between the two if a wooden lance was
used, but to get the full benefit of the blood drain, and metal connection
must exist between the two. Use that rule if you like.

> Also, when sons (hiers) inherit thier father's (regent's) bloodline
what do they do? Or
> have I just been reading all this wrong? Assuming a ceremony of
vassalage is used to do
> "safe" bloodtheft, but the donor has 10 more strength points, wouldn't
it be better to
> unbloodize the reciver then transfer the bloodline? Would that take
two ceremonies?

I'm not sure quite what you mean here. The ceremony of investiture takes
care of a small problem, in that regents who are able to raise their BL
scores w/ RP's are likely to be higher in BL point than their heirs when
they die and the heir is ready to take over (in fact, if you think about
it, it is quite likely that the oldest heir actually has a LOWER bloodline
than her younger siblings). The ceremony of Investiture corrects this by
transfering not only the Regency of the Domain, but also the former
ruler's bloodline strength, thus bumping up the inheritor to the BL
strength of the retiring regent.

> Finally, kind of an odd question, what would happen to blooded people
with lukemia (sp?)

My initial reaction is to say that lieukemia doesn't occur in Cerilia,
because I don't what to have to worry about such things. However, there
may be some interesting ideas there, which you could design and write up.
You could also do something interesting with the "bleeding disease"
(hemophilia) that traditionally affected European nobility because they
were so inbreed. That might have some interesting effects on blooded
persons as well.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Lee]

While I think of it, I always wanted to throw in some special effets
whenever a scion is slain, sort of a lightning-and-smoke show. This would be
more intense if it involved bloodtheft. Think about the death scenes in the
"Highlander" movies, and you'll know what I mean.
So far in my Giantdowns game, there have been 2 scion (npc) deaths, but
neither resulted in bloodtheft (one in a shower of arrows, the other in a
deadfall trap).
In theory, I have to agree with TimN. that called shots and/or critical
hits can hurt a game, I am fortunate that my current players hardly ever use
them.
I have to agree with Mark V.'s point that bloodtheft could also occur at
dramatically appropriate moments. I have such a moment in mind in the future,
since one of my PC's doesn't yet realize that he is a royal bastard.
Changing the topic a little, does anyone have ideas for detecting a
bloodline? I ruled that good ol' Detect Magic will pull it off, in addition
to Know Bloodline. If someone doesn't know if his opponent is a scion, how
would he know to attempt bloodtheft? Obviously, the Bloodform and Bloodmark
abilities will give it away, but in other cases?

Lee.

[Lee]

While I think of it, I always wanted to throw in some special effets
whenever a scion is slain, sort of a lightning-and-smoke show. This would be
more intense if it involved bloodtheft. Think about the death scenes in the
"Highlander" movies, and you'll know what I mean.
So far in my Giantdowns game, there have been 2 scion (npc) deaths, but
neither resulted in bloodtheft (one in a shower of arrows, the other in a
deadfall trap).
In theory, I have to agree with TimN. that called shots and/or critical
hits can hurt a game, I am fortunate that my current players hardly ever use
them.
I have to agree with Mark V.'s point that bloodtheft could also occur at
dramatically appropriate moments. I have such a moment in mind in the future,
since one of my PC's doesn't yet realize that he is a royal bastard.
Changing the topic a little, does anyone have ideas for detecting a
bloodline? I ruled that good ol' Detect Magic will pull it off, in addition
to Know Bloodline. If someone doesn't know if his opponent is a scion, how
would he know to attempt bloodtheft? Obviously, the Bloodform and Bloodmark
abilities will give it away, but in other cases?

Lee.

[Galwylin]

At 03:34 PM 10/2/98 EDT, LeeHa1854@aol.com wrote:
>
> Changing the topic a little, does anyone have ideas for detecting a
>bloodline? I ruled that good ol' Detect Magic will pull it off, in addition
>to Know Bloodline. If someone doesn't know if his opponent is a scion, how
>would he know to attempt bloodtheft? Obviously, the Bloodform and Bloodmark
>abilities will give it away, but in other cases?

Many tales have it that 'special' people bear some type of mark. Like a
birthmark in the shape of something. Has anyone used that?

This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

[Aaron Sanderson]

>
>I remember a reported case of a female officer being shot through the
heart and
>being consciouse enough to kill her assailant with her own sidearm.
She later
>returned to active duty (the details are very long), though it took
over a year
>to recover from the injuries.
>
>The critical part of the rules in bloodtheft states that the "killing
blow"
>must be through the heart. So, then, whatever the method (and usually
a called
>shot would work best), the only way that bloodtheft will happen is if
the
>victim is allready very close to dying. The rules for "hovering on
Death's
>door" have been suggested, and that works well. In fact about the only
blow
>that will kill a person outright, that can be achieved with a sword, is
one
>that in some way renders the brain inoperable. I suppose that if the
blade
>were left in the victims heart, then when the victim eventually (a few
rounds
>later) goes down and actually perished, then bloodtheft would happen.
>
>There is a problem here, though. Allowing specific damage through a
critical
>hit will destroy your game faster than giving the players 20 wishes
each.
>After you allow them to run victims through the heart, what is to stop
them
>from castration and the specific nasty effect, or how about
specifically
>cutting off their head, or... the list can go on forever, but run it
through
>and figure out whether you even want to allow that. Trust me, it isn't
worth
>it. Let the players go through combat normally, and keep track, if the
last
>blow takes the target below -10 h.p., then the force has killed the
injured
>victim outright and the spark is lost.
>
>Good luck, and good gaming!
>Tim Nutting
Oh, I don't know. Having a 2 to 3 inch wide blade shoved through ones
heart would probibly do a number on them. Also, as a round is approx. a
min. then a single round has enough time in it for a person's body to
catch up with their mind and completly stop working. At most it would
only take a max. of 6 rounds for them to bleed to death. After all, if
you hit the heart then you probibly catch the arota right behind it too.
However, we also add that if a called shot fails then a person may leave
themselves open to a easy shot.
just my 2 cps
AmS.

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[David Sean Brown]

Normally the following would be true, however, I can tel you for fact
athat a good number of people who receive a penetrating wound to the heart
live a fairly long period of time (like hours)..this is because what
happens is the blade goes in a makes a cut in the heard..after it is
removed, the hole in the pericardium (the stuff surrounding the heart)
gets pused up against surrounding tissues, effectively blocking that
hole..meanwhile, the hole in the ventricle allows blood to spill out until
the space between the pericardium and the heart is full of blood..when
that happens, no more blood can get out, and yo essentially stop
bleeding./.your heart doesn't beat very well at this point, but you stop
bleeding to death, and can often be saved if you get help soon enough at
this stage..

Sean



> Oh, I don't know. Having a 2 to 3 inch wide blade shoved through ones
> heart would probibly do a number on them. Also, as a round is approx. a
> min. then a single round has enough time in it for a person's body to
> catch up with their mind and completly stop working. At most it would
> only take a max. of 6 rounds for them to bleed to death. After all, if
> you hit the heart then you probibly catch the arota right behind it too.
> However, we also add that if a called shot fails then a person may leave
> themselves open to a easy shot.
> just my 2 cps
> AmS.
>
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> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

[Aaron Sanderson]

>Normally the following would be true, however, I can tel you for fact
>athat a good number of people who receive a penetrating wound to the
heart
>live a fairly long period of time (like hours)..this is because what
>happens is the blade goes in a makes a cut in the heard..after it is
>removed, the hole in the pericardium (the stuff surrounding the heart)
>gets pused up against surrounding tissues, effectively blocking that
>hole..meanwhile, the hole in the ventricle allows blood to spill out
until
>the space between the pericardium and the heart is full of blood..when
>that happens, no more blood can get out, and yo essentially stop
>bleeding./.your heart doesn't beat very well at this point, but you
stop
>bleeding to death, and can often be saved if you get help soon enough
at
>this stage..
>
>Sean

That works great if the item causing the damage is a .22 caliber pistol
round or a pocket knife. Again, think of the size of the item causing
the wound. A sword point, anywhere from an inch in width to much
larger, is punching through the heart. Not nicking it. It would
probibly destroy at least one chamber of the heart and possibly two.
Most of the cases that I have read that included the senerio you
describe are about a minor wound to the heart. When I think of a called
shot to the heart it includes ramming your sword up to the hilt into
your target, not poking him and then jumping back. To add to the amount
of damage that the blade is causing a trained fighter would twist the
blade to open the wound even farther.

Just my view,
AmS.

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[Gary V. Foss]

David Sean Brown wrote:

> Normally the following would be true, however, I can tel you for fact
> athat a good number of people who receive a penetrating wound to the heart
> live a fairly long period of time (like hours)..this is because what
> happens is the blade goes in a makes a cut in the heard..after it is
> removed, the hole in the pericardium (the stuff surrounding the heart)
> gets pused up against surrounding tissues, effectively blocking that
> hole..meanwhile, the hole in the ventricle allows blood to spill out until
> the space between the pericardium and the heart is full of blood..when
> that happens, no more blood can get out, and yo essentially stop
> bleeding./.your heart doesn't beat very well at this point, but you stop
> bleeding to death, and can often be saved if you get help soon enough at
> this stage..

This brings up an interesting possibility. That is, the usual definition of
bloodtheft is as the result of a killing blow to the heart. Most people tend to
think of any blow to the heart as being a killing blow, but that need not be the
case. Especially if the -10 rule is used. Using the above information it could
be possible for a scion to lose his bloodline to bloodtheft and remain alive. He
could be saved after the "killing blow" by a priest casting healing magic or
simply be bandaged and rescued from the battlefield to recuperate normally.

I don't know exactly how I'd use this in a campaign, but it raises a few
interesting possibilities. It'd have to be a kind of freak accident of the kind
that only happens on the rarest of occasions, but could make for some interesting
role-playing possibilities.

Gary

[Gary V. Foss]

Complete Systems wrote:

> Regarding death's door, it's still gotta be -10 for the kill, but if the attacker can keep the blade in the body for 9 rounds (or less as needed) while the victim bleeds to death, and this should fairly easy while the victim is in the negatives and considered a prone target. The attacker could even twist the blade to speed up the flow.

A coup de grace can be performed in a round. Assuming you use the -10 rule and that a character is unconcious when reduced to 0 or fewer hit points, a character could just lean over and state that his coup de grace was going to be a stab to the heart, which should pretty well cover the matter.

Gary