The GS of Lluabraight

[Tim Nutting]

Just curious, if we seem committed to the view that all GS are evil, is anyone
convinced that any of the White Witch's mercenary folks are good? I'd always
pictured most of them as being evil, and as they are the principal human foes
to the Sidhe of Lluabraight, does that then excuse the GS actions there as it
would for PCs?

[Bernardo79@aol.co]

In a message dated 10/19/98 5:45:07 AM Central Daylight Time,
zero@wiredweb.com writes:

>

There is something you are missing here. What are the GS's motives. They are
not killing evil things because they are evil. They are killig evil things
because what they are. If a bunch of nice little babies and women all of
lawful good alignment where lost in the forrests, they would be slaughtered.
The GS are murdering the humans because they are humans what the alignment the
humans are is irrelavaent. I hope that clears it up for you.

Bernie
GM of When Night Falls Brechtur Saga: and looking for DMs
http://members.aol.com/bernardo79/brechtur.htm

[Trizt]

Tim Nutting (zero@wiredweb.com) wrote:

- -> Just curious, if we seem committed to the view that all GS are evil, is
anyone
- -> convinced that any of the White Witch's mercenary folks are good? I'd
always
- -> pictured most of them as being evil, and as they are the principal human
foes
- -> to the Sidhe of Lluabraight, does that then excuse the GS actions there
as it
- -> would for PCs?

As humans are generally ego sentric, I would say that the mercenaries of the
White Witch would be evil.

//Trizt of Ward^RITE

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[einarh@fagerborg.vgs.n]

>anyone
> convinced that any of the White Witch's mercenary folks are good? I'd
always
> pictured most of them as being evil, and as they are the principal human
foes
> to the Sidhe of Lluabraight, does that then excuse the GS actions there
as it
> would for PCs?
> >>
>
>There is something you are missing here. What are the GS's motives. They
are
>not killing evil things because they are evil. They are killig evil things
>because what they are. If a bunch of nice little babies and women all of
>lawful good alignment where lost in the forrests, they would be slaughtered.
>The GS are murdering the humans because they are humans what the alignment
the
>humans are is irrelavaent. I hope that clears it up for you.

Hmm.. The GS kills all. I thought we discussed it.
Its not the Hunt of Humans... Yes, the elves of the GS are rascists.
But not specifically against humans, against all others than elves.

Siebharrin the Lich

[Bernardo79@aol.co]

In a message dated 10/19/98 1:23:10 PM Central Daylight Time,
einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no writes:

>

Once again, I am not saying they are only human killers. They are killers.
But goblins and elves do not co-exist as equals. Elves and humans do, and as
it attributes it only to humans in the tuarhuevel descriptions in roe, I am
assuming it is what makes them different from normal good elves, in the fact
theat they murder humans. They are evil because they are murders, that is what
I am saying. I mean it is appaerntly so horendous in the way that the elves
kill these humans, that Shadow world is desending on the area. Hmmm, maybe
that means the people who commit the attrocities are actually nice neutral
people.... ok... believe that... The Gorgon could slaughter 50 evil goblins,
would that make him any less evil? No. See by appling that logic elsewhere
you can judge it without bias. Elves may be almost everyones favorite demi-
human and it is hard to say that non-evil races of elves (drow vs high) can
have evil in them, but here in BR world, elves are varied as are humans and
dwarves. Sure I would love it if we could see some good goblin areas, but as
this is still ad&d we still have our love-to-hate goblins and mosters so deal
with it or change it You have that option as a GM. Make Thurazur the land of
the happy nice goblins, with their lovely white hats, pants, and shoes, that
every kid would love to cuddle. I prefer the way it is, but you may choose
differently. That is why each game is unique.

Bernie Cannariato
GM of When Night Falls, Brechtur Saga... which is in need of GMs.
http://members.aol.com/bernardo79/brechtur.htm

[einarh@fagerborg.vgs.n]

>Elves may be almost everyones favorite demi-
>human and it is hard to say that non-evil races of elves (drow vs high) can
>have evil in them, but here in BR world, elves are varied as are humans and
>dwarves.

Nono.. Gully Dwarves are the best race TSR ever created.
Nothing beats trying to RP a gully dwarf (and making the gaming group go
crazy).
Theyareevenbetterthantinkergnomes!!

Siebharrin the Lich

[Kenneth Gauck]

Opposing evil does not permit one to employ evil means in responce. The
methods that are permited during any just cause are still applicable, but
torture, brutality, and pillage are always impermissable to the cause of
good.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: Tim Nutting
Date: Monday, October 19, 1998 5:51 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - The GS of Lluabraight


>Just curious, if we seem committed to the view that all GS are evil, is
anyone
>convinced that any of the White Witch's mercenary folks are good? I'd
always
>pictured most of them as being evil, and as they are the principal human
foes
>to the Sidhe of Lluabraight, does that then excuse the GS actions there as
it
>would for PCs?

[Tim Nutting]

> Opposing evil does not permit one to employ evil means in responce. The
> methods that are permited during any just cause are still applicable, but
> torture, brutality, and pillage are always impermissable to the cause of
> good.

Best response thus far. Thanks Ken.

I brought this up because I felt there had been a double standard placed for
Humans and Elves, specifically in the concept of PCs being more readily excused
for excesses than NPCs. I saw responses advocating the total annihilation of
certain races because they are "evil", more accurately, they aren't human and
thus are expendable. If I had asked "what about how they deal with the Goblins
of Urga Zai?", I suspect that the answers would have been different.

What I had seen was the idea that if the PCs were part of a frontier defense
group, like the Watch of the Giantdowns, then it would be okay for them to go
out and make "pre-emptive strikes" on the Goblins and humanoids, and in fact it
would also be okay for them to kill the non-combatants. However, what if the
PCs suddenly had to "defend" against the White Witch's armies?

I titled this "The GS of Lluabraight" for a few reasons:

1) All their enemies are evil, even the humans. (Remember, Goblins are all
evil so they are okay to kill. In fact, some have even called it a Good act.)

2) All their enemies are oppressive and, with the possible exception of the
White Witch, on campaigns of conquest.

3) This land is in REAL danger of dying, because the source of power that has
made Lluabraight the independent nation it was has been lost. They already
have lost 2 provinces to the Ghuralli in the space of a few years.

In fact, the description of how the Ghuralli treats elven prisoners could
almost make me proud to be a member of the GS on the south watch (dependent
upon the methods employed). Anyone who can make my friends and neighbors
"...screams echo through the woods for days..." almost begs to be killed on
sight.

One more thing. Elves and humans are only on an equal basis because we humans
think so. The Elves of BR do not. Whether we like it or not, that is the way
they are written, so for the humanocentric principle that it is somehow okay to
kill goblin babies because they are evil and inferior to humans to hold water,
from the Sidhelien centered view, humans, who are inferior to Sidhe and evil
(what Good race would defile the land so? How can a short lived mortal be
equal to the immortal Fey?) are just as acceptably dispatched of.

I think that, further, from the Sidhelien perspective, humans are worse than
goblins. For 10,000 years the Sidhe kept their lands largely whole form
humanoid depredation. When the humans came, they were seen as possible allies
against the goblins. That worked for a while, but then the humans got greedy
and wanted more than what was given, so they decided to take it. Now the elven
lands are shambles, pitiful remembrances of what they once were. From their
perspective, who's worse? I wonder why I can believe so easily that the humans
did what they did in this setting?

From our perspective, as humans, would it matter overmuch if we were fighting a
race war against a folk that were like gnats? They grow to maturity in the
space of a few days, live for about two weeks, and then perish. How could they
possibly attain any level of culture or meaning? Would we all balk at the
concept of "nuking them before they spread?" Further, if they reproduce so
quickly, could we even accept that two hundred generations after the war
started (about two years for us, give or take) that we were fighting a
different war? Wouldn't it still be the same war for us? To some elves, the
situation is identical. They are probably evil, as I would label them.

Personally, I find the above statements distasteful. I find it just as wrong
for a band of humans to dress up in shiny armor and wave holy symbols and go
lay waste to a goblin village as it is for a bunch of elves to do the same
thing to humans. However, I have to wonder at the questions I ask in the
preceding paragraph. The debates of the last two weeks have really caused me
to look very hard at my core beliefs, and I have to wonder what I REALLY would
think.

I guess I have to tip my hat somewhat to the POV crowd and try to blend my
belief here, because I certainly have a view that differs from others about
what is good and evil. I guess I'm fairly ego-centic, however, because I'm
almost convinced that I'm absolutely right about the two poles. But then
again, that's just not my so humble opinion. :)

Later guys and gals,
Game on!

Tim Nutting