The Fifth Food Group

[Gary V. Foss]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> On Wednesday, October 21, 1998 4:51 PM, Gary V. Foss
> wrote:
> >There is also the possibility that elves, like Cerilian dwarves, have a
> drastically
> >different diet than we often assume. Dwarves can live on rocks and dirt.
>
> I had a fit when I first read the Baruk-Azhik suplement. The point about
> dwarves eating rocks was one of the things that set me off. After writing a
> three page polemic against the supliment, I decided to just offer my players
> caveat. I told them that the information was not neccesarily reliable, but
> was how the dwarves see their own society, and not how it really was. If
> anyone wants my specific criticisms of the Dwarven Sup, I'll send it
> off-list.

Huh. You know, I really didn't have that much of a problem with it. Probably
because I bought into the whole Planescape thing in which Tieflings can eat
ashes and bones and stuff. I actually kind of like that Cerilian dwarves can
eat dirt. God knows I tried to as a four-year-old.... Besides, it makes the
dwarves more alien and I kind of like that. It's also a cute explanation for
their relative density in comparison to other creatures. Besides, I saw a guy
eat a whole box full of straight pins one time. THAT was weird. Dwarves can
eat mud pies? No problem.

> >Elves might be able to live on pine cones or even pine needles, tree
> >bark, daisies, grass, whatever.
>
> This is certainly likely as a supliment to diet, but creatures the size of
> elves (even with some leeway) would eat enough of this stuff to really harm
> the eco-system. pine cones are the seed bearers of trees, as are nuts.
> Often the nutrition we take from these sources is direct competition with
> the trees. Tree bark is obviously a protection for the tree. Some might be
> harvested, but one of the great causes of deforestation in Sub-Saharan
> Africa is the elephant which rubs against trees, and stripps the bark off.
> Grass has little nutritional value and is hard to digest.

Well, grass has little nutritional value for humans, but I think the point is
that elves might be able to process it much more efficiently. Like I said, I
don't have a problem with dwarves munching down rocks (which I'm pretty sure
have even less nutritional value to humans than grass) so elves eating
dandelions is perfectly fine by me. As for stripping the bark off trees, maybe
elves eat the WHOLE tree. I just said bark as an example....

Besides, I'm not sure I understand how elves would deforest an area by eating
naturally growing plants, yet not deforest that same area if they were farming
it.... There are a lot of elves, I grant you, but it's not like they go mowing
through the forests devouring the plantlife like weevils on crack....

> Some of these concerns might seem nit-picky, but when the people in a game
> session have trouble suspending their disbelief, the whole game suffers.
> The game should be simple, elegant, and capable of suspending disbelief.

Well sheesh, Ken, I wasn't having any problem suspending my disbelief before!
Now I'm all questioning the calorie intake of my characters and stuff. I'm
starting to think my female bard, Rowena, is anorexic. She's getting to look
like that chick on Alley McBeal.... And my favorite fighter, Kohvan, has a
cholesterol count higher than the Silverhead Mountains! That boy needs to lay
off the red meat....

Seriously, though. I don't mind at all the idea that elves and dwarves have a
fifth and sixth food group respectively. Especially since certain foods that
humans eat are inedible to dwarves (and probably should be for elves if we
extend the reasoning) so it evens things out.

Gary

[Galwylin]

"Gary V. Foss" wrote:
>
> Seriously, though. I don't mind at all the idea that elves and dwarves have a
> fifth and sixth food group respectively. Especially since certain foods that
> humans eat are inedible to dwarves (and probably should be for elves if we
> extend the reasoning) so it evens things out.

I rather like the idea myself, too. It apparently needs to be pointed
out every time you're dealing with elves or dwarves (or halflings if
they ever develope their own culture) that these are alien to
humankind. They shouldn't be living off nice juicey steaks just because
that's what humans enjoy (though I like mine rather dry ;)

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This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

[Kenneth Gauck]

- ----Original Message-----
From: Gary V. Foss
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 5:32 PM
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - The Fifth Food Group


>I actually kind of like that Cerilian dwarves can eat dirt. God knows I
tried to as a
>four-year-old.... Besides, it makes the dwarves more alien and I kind of
like that.
>It's also a cute explanation for their relative density in comparison to
other
>creatures. Besides, I saw a guy eat a whole box full of straight pins one
time.
>THAT was weird. Dwarves can eat mud pies? No problem.
>
Humans can and do eat dirt. Its very nutritious. You'll find the practice
in West Africa and the American South. Rocks are another matter. Even
granted that dwarves do eat rocks and dirt (and I permit it in my campaign),
its not a long term solution. It may be high in minerals, but lacks
calories. Furthermore digestion should require very large amounts of water,
making it a deydration risk. The game suggests the dwarves locked
themselves underground for centuries and continue to live there without
venturing to the surface. I could allow fantastic food sources all under
ground, but I don't know how other game actions would effect them.
Vulnerablities? Possible sources of contamination? Ultimatly that's the
problem with the fantastic. If you are asked to encounter it on a month to
month basis, you need answers to these questions. If I told my players that
the Gorgon harmed my player's realm's food supply, they would want to know
in what way, to what extent, and how could the prevent it in the future. As
a DM I need answers to these questions, even if I will only divulge it
through divinations, consultations with sages, alchemists, and bardic lore
masters. I can certainly see how a mountain dwarf whose plane went down in
the Andes might survive eating rocks and snow for a few days while he
marched down the mountain. But locked up underground for years?

>Besides, I'm not sure I understand how elves would deforest an area by
eating
>naturally growing plants, yet not deforest that same area if they were
farming
>it.... There are a lot of elves, I grant you, but it's not like they go
mowing
>through the forests devouring the plantlife like weevils on crack....
>
I'll explain how elves could deforest an area by eating naturally growing
plants, yet not do so if they were farming. Intentionally planting food
produces more food per sq foot of land than the wilderness does. Compare a
Birch tree and a vegetable garden occupying the same area on the ground.
The garden will feed you longer. Since you would run out of food faster
collecting nuts and selecting edible bark (and getting an inferior diet) you
would end up ranging over a wider area of forest to obtain your food.
While killing trees along the way.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Kenneth Gauck]

There is a difference between physiology and culture. We have not been
talking about culture. If you have invented a fantastic nutrition system
for alternate races. By all means, share it.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Galwylin
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - The Fifth Food Group


>It apparently needs to be pointed out every time you're dealing with elves
or
>dwarves (or halflings if they ever develope their own culture) that these
are
>alien to humankind. They shouldn't be living off nice juicey steaks just
because
>that's what humans enjoy (though I like mine rather dry ;)

[Galwylin]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
> I'll explain how elves could deforest an area by eating naturally growing
> plants, yet not do so if they were farming. Intentionally planting food
> produces more food per sq foot of land than the wilderness does. Compare a
> Birch tree and a vegetable garden occupying the same area on the ground.
> The garden will feed you longer. Since you would run out of food faster
> collecting nuts and selecting edible bark (and getting an inferior diet) you
> would end up ranging over a wider area of forest to obtain your food.
> While killing trees along the way.

Maybe elves have such a place in the natural order of things that
without them, forests would find survival difficult. Like insects and
plants have become dependent on each other. I don't mean to be crass
but what if Cerilia's trees need the elves digestive tract to reproduce?

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This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

[Kenneth Gauck]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Galwylin
Date: Thursday, October 22, 1998 10:17 PM


>Maybe elves have such a place in the natural order of things that
>without them, forests would find survival difficult. Like insects and
>plants have become dependent on each other. I don't mean to be crass
>but what if Cerilia's trees need the elves digestive tract to reproduce?
>
That's an excellent idea. However its only likely to effect a few related
species of trees, esp since elves are not about in several of the forests.
I especially like the idea, though.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[MANTA]

Gary V. Foss Gary V. Foss
> > wrote:
> Huh. You know, I really didn't have that much of a problem with it.
Probably
> because I bought into the whole Planescape thing in which Tieflings can
eat
> ashes and bones and stuff. I actually kind of like that Cerilian dwarves
can
> eat dirt. God knows I tried to as a four-year-old.... Besides, it makes
the
> dwarves more alien and I kind of like that. It's also a cute explanation
for
> their relative density in comparison to other creatures. Besides, I saw
a guy
> eat a whole box full of straight pins one time. THAT was weird. Dwarves
can
> eat mud pies? No problem.

Even though they CAN eat dirt , rocks, mud , whatever it doesn´t mean they
actually do it and like doing it. Maybe it´s a last resourse. Maybe they
can do it but prefer other more pleasent diets. Maybe surviving off rocks
is the dwarven equivalent of garbage-dump scavenging - most humans survive
by doing it and God knows they don´t like it.

"Hey guys! An earth elemental! Draw the cutlery!"
Rhokka, Mur-Khilad veteran

MANTA
ip209007@ip.pt
ICQ: 17080887scout

[Gary V. Foss]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> Humans can and do eat dirt. Its very nutritious. You'll find the practice
> in West Africa and the American South. Rocks are another matter. Even
> granted that dwarves do eat rocks and dirt (and I permit it in my campaign),
> its not a long term solution. It may be high in minerals, but lacks
> calories. Furthermore digestion should require very large amounts of water,
> making it a deydration risk. The game suggests the dwarves locked
> themselves underground for centuries and continue to live there without
> venturing to the surface. I could allow fantastic food sources all under
> ground, but I don't know how other game actions would effect them.
> Vulnerablities? Possible sources of contamination?

Well, I think this kind of thing is where the "fantasy" in the fantasy
role-playing game comes in. I know the "realism" debate is even older and more
tired than the Gheallie Sidhe Alignment issue, so I won't bore anyone by
bringing up that I think the REALISM IS FOR THE BIRDS! and THE GHEALLIE SIDHE
ARE EVIL!!! Oops. Sorry. Didn't mean to rehash old issues there....

> Ultimatly that's the
> problem with the fantastic. If you are asked to encounter it on a month to
> month basis, you need answers to these questions. If I told my players that
> the Gorgon harmed my player's realm's food supply, they would want to know
> in what way, to what extent, and how could the prevent it in the future. As
> a DM I need answers to these questions, even if I will only divulge it
> through divinations, consultations with sages, alchemists, and bardic lore
> masters.

Ah, I see. You're a realistic kind of guy. I guess we're going to have to put
this down to different role-playing styles. I would have the exact opposite
problem with my players. If I tried to explain realistically how the food
supply problem in Baruk Azhik was solved so that dwarves could maintain an
adequate calorie intake to support themselves given the size of the population,
lack of access to sunlight or just about any other biological issue, they would
look at me like I was wearing a purple tutu and speaking Mandarin.

For some people suspension of disbelief happens just after sitting down and
picking up a book that says "Dungeons and Dragons" on it. For others it takes
place far later. To me, "realistic dwarves" is close to an oxymoron, because
dwarves are a fantastic invention. Could they exist in real life? Maybe.
Well, sure, why not? But the point is that they don't, so I have no problem
with explaining the diet of a fantastic species in a fantastic, unrealistic,
maybe even silly way.

I'm going to paraphrase a conversation with one of my players to illustrate my
point.

Player: Hey, Gary. I was wondering. How can creatures as big as dragons be
supported by the ecosystem of your campaign world. I mean, dragons would eat a
lot! Wouldn't they wipe out all the wildlife in any area they lived in and make
it unable to support any other creatures?

Me: Uh, well.... It rains more.

Player: Huh?

Me: You know. It rains more. It rains a lot, so more plants grow and more
animals can feed off them, and more predators exist and right on up the food
chain.

Player: Oh.... OK.

> I can certainly see how a mountain dwarf whose plane went down in
> the Andes might survive eating rocks and snow for a few days while he
> marched down the mountain. But locked up underground for years?

What a heart warming tale of survival! We should make a movie! Heh. Cute
analogy. Though I don't really think the Baruk Azhik even have a soccer team,
do they?

I suppose if you need a rationale you could have the BA dwarves farming
underground taking advantage of geothermal energy rather than sunlight. I
remember reading a few years ago that scientists had found a cave plant or
something that did so. There are also examples of those undersea hotspot
geothermal tube thingies that certain scientists are speculating might have been
where life really originated on Earth due to their proximity to the primordial
soup and all.

> I'll explain how elves could deforest an area by eating naturally growing
> plants, yet not do so if they were farming. Intentionally planting food
> produces more food per sq foot of land than the wilderness does. Compare a
> Birch tree and a vegetable garden occupying the same area on the ground.
> The garden will feed you longer. Since you would run out of food faster
> collecting nuts and selecting edible bark (and getting an inferior diet) you
> would end up ranging over a wider area of forest to obtain your food.
> While killing trees along the way.

Well, I think that makes a few assumptions about the relative edibility of
plants. If elves can eat the mulberry bush and not just the mulberries it kind
of changes matters. When humans look at a forest they see trees, but when an
elf looks at a forest maybe he sees a vast, lip-smacking salad of delicacies and
treats! Elves would have no need to farm anything because it's all gravy to
them. (Or the vegan equivalent of gravy, that is.) They may not have to worry
about just eating the roots of one plant, just the leaves of another or just the
fruit from a third because it's all good, so farming is a waste of time to
them. To elves, the term "farming" could be just making sure you don't eat too
much of a plant to kill it, leaving an endless, sustainable food supply.

Gary

[Galwylin]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>
> That's an excellent idea. However its only likely to effect a few related
> species of trees, esp since elves are not about in several of the forests.
> I especially like the idea, though.

I was thinking there some plants that thrive after their seeds have gone
through a mammal's digestive system in the real world. I'm not
completely knowledgeable about this but I was thinking that those plants
can still reproduce without this. Its just harder for them. Maybe
forests with elves grow much faster and thicker which is why men can't
just 'grow' their own forests. They never would grow fast enough to be
a fuel source for humans. Human need will continually force them to
seek out forest where elves make their home destroying the elves food
source. Nice little vicious circle :)

On a side note, I've also thought about something else. Maybe the smell
of wood smoke causes elves to go into a frenzy or agitated state. Aroma
therapy type thing.

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This has been a Galwylin® Production

galwylin@airnet.net
http://www.airnet.net/galwylin/

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 10-22-1998 5:36:03 PM Central Daylight Time,
GeeMan@linkline.com writes:

>
> Well, grass has little nutritional value for humans, but I think the point
> is
> that elves might be able to process it much more efficiently. Like I said,
> I
> don't have a problem with dwarves munching down rocks (which I'm pretty
sure
> have even less nutritional value to humans than grass) so elves eating
> dandelions is perfectly fine by me. As for stripping the bark off trees,
> maybe
> elves eat the WHOLE tree. I just said bark as an example....
>
Hey, these are cool ideas! And I say that Gobbos eat insects as a dietary
supplement. Especially spiders!! Yum!

:)
Dustin Evermore

[Gary V. Foss]

DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:

> Hey, these are cool ideas! And I say that Gobbos eat insects as a dietary
> supplement. Especially spiders!! Yum!

I actually like that idea too. Goblins can eat snakes, spiders and various items
that other races would find unpalatable, maybe even poisonous. If goblins could
eat locusts, for instance, it would be a cute analogy for their reproductive
habits and the way they are seen as a pestilence by many other cultures. After
all, you are what you eat.... Does that mean cannibals don't change at all?

Gary

[Jim Cooper]

Gary V. Foss wrote:
> What a heart warming tale of survival! We should make a movie! Heh. Cute analogy. Though I don't really think the Baruk Azhik even have a soccer team, do they?

[darkstar]

Ryan Freire wrote:
>
> Personally i think dwarves survive underground mainly on Mushrooms and
> Rothe herds, Mushrooms, being easy to grow in places like caves, can be
> plentiful easily. Rothe being cattle raised to live underground would
> provide the protien. Even the most important staple of dwarven
> life...alcohol, is made from mushrooms.
>
I have always liked the Dwarven Diet set out in the players secrets of
Baruk-Azhik. In that they mainy ate things like mushrooms, shellfish and
root vegetables. They can also survive on just rock, dirt and a little
water if need be.

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss

ICQ: 2938300 AIM: IHoskins

[MANTA]

:
>
> > But one of my players pointed out that
> > > elves and humans can get fertile offspring.
> One thing I have noticed that is kind of strange with normal AD&D (not
sure
> about BR, is it still true) is that a half elf and human can mate, and
make a
> half-elf. Then, a human and orc can mate and have a half-orc. So that
means
> an elf and orc should be able to have a half elf and half orc baby!
there are
> also half ogres, which means there could be a half orc half human man,
that
> has a baby with a half elf half ogre woman, and make a.....

Mongrelman (the designers thought of it)


MANTA
ip209007@ip.pt
ICQ: 17080887

[YTHmin@aol.co]

As a DM playing the Dark Side ( yea I get to be the Gorgon and the bad guys )
I always thought humans were the fifth food group

[Jim Cooper]

YTHmin@aol.com wrote:
> As a DM playing the Dark Side ( yea I get to be the Gorgon and the bad guys ) I always thought humans were the fifth food group<

Heh. Don't forget halfings - they're tasty!

Elves, on the other hand, are gamy, and dwarves give you gas.

:)

Cheers,
GV on the relative merits of eating certain food groups.

[Kenneth Gauck]

>Ryan Freire wrote:
>
> Personally i think dwarves survive underground mainly on mushrooms and
> Rothe herds, Mushrooms, being easy to grow in places like caves, can be
> plentiful easily. Rothe being cattle raised to live underground would
> provide the protien. Even the most important staple of dwarven
> life...alcohol, is made from mushrooms.


That makes an underground life more sensible, but the way the sup was
written (which I take to be only a suggestion to players and DM's) was that
dwarves lived entirely underground and prefered to eat potatoes, carrots,
other root vegetables, onions, peanuts and legumes (peas and beans) as well
as strawberries, raspberries, blueberries, pepers, greens, thistles,
artichokes, radishes, oats, rye, barley, and occasionally pears, peaches,
cranberries, cherries, hickory nuts, chestnuts, and acorns. This
absolutely requires above ground cultivation, which is contrary to what the
sup claims.

My explanation of this to my players was that Dwarves find the cultivation
of these crops so effortless (relative to other things they do) that dwarves
don't value the time and effort, hence its under-reported in the dwarves own
thinking.

The sup also says there are no surface structures, which I explained by
saying that the many structures built on the surface were wood, and lasted
so few years compared to stone buildings that they were viewed by the
dwarves as temporary structures (like humans might view a tent).

This cultural translation requires players to get inside the heads of the
dwarves to make any sense of what they are saying.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 10-24-1998 12:20:43 PM Central Standard Time,
Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca writes:

> Heh. Don't forget halfings - they're tasty!
>
I have found halflings a tad greasy for me.

- -DKE