Magician Core Class

[RaspK_FOG]

There has been a lot of discussion regarding this one class; the most of our time has been till now invested, though, on the one thing the class lacks the most power: its spell list.

By focusing on that, we have failed, and I am sorry to say I believe we did, to realise that keeping with setting material we cannot increase the magicians power level to that of the wizard: while the magician does get more spells than the wizard, he is not even as powerful as he should be.

Do not misinterpret what I say: just like Irdeggman has said, I am just convinced that the magician should have abilities that define him as a core class. Of course, this also includes its spell list, but since this is defined to some point, we should concentrate on defining other aspects of his.

These are the options I can only consider.

[Osprey]

Rasp, I'm having difficulty understanding your categories here. They're sort of... vague. This, I'm afraid, makes them difficult to vote on. Perhaps could you give some explanation and examples of each?

Osprey

[irdeggman]

You are right the phrasing is confusing. It looks the question is shoudl they have the specialist abilties only, different abililities than those of the specialist or a combaination of the 2.


I had voted for #2 since it said to use abilities "above" being a specialist. Which to me means the normal specialist abilties and some more, but option 3 seems redundent with it.

IMO this is really an unnecessary poll since the 2nd ed magician had abilities beyond those of the normal specialist. Spontaneously casting any cantrips was one of them.

What we should be focusing on is what abilities should we be giving them. Brainstorming as it were, looking for ideas that can be assembled in some sort of orderly fashion.

So try a different thread (or just add to this one ignoring the poll) and have everyone start brainstorming for ideas that can make it a viable class. IMO relying on creating new spells isn't the way to go since before long we will end up with a compendium of house-rules spells and people will start to complain on why theirs wasn't included.

IMO we try to stick as closely as possible to using the core rules spells and those conversions from 2nd ed BR specific spells as the baseline and then go from there. Only addinng a minimum number of new spells to avoid the issue stated above on house-rules and different opinions peole have on their own house-rules.

[irdeggman]

Some possible ideas for abilities:

Chose any non-class skill and treat it as a class skill from now on.

Improved spell focus (Ill and Div only) {a tird level total of +3 when combined with spell focus and greater spell focus}

Free maximize spells for Ill and Div spells only.

Spontaneously cast Ill and Div spells

Improved casting of Div spells. That is the time to get time-dependent results (like Detect MAgic for instance) is lessoned by 1 round.

Temporarily gain a class ability of another class. Could pick a type of class and then for certain number of rounds per day can use a class ability usable by a character with a class level of X (2 maybe) levels less than the magician. This ability can be taken a number of times but each time a different class must be taken and wizard/sorcerer/prestige classes are not allowed, nor is spell ability an allowed one to duplicate.

These are mostly based on the fact that the magician is a versatile class that relies on his ability to make himself useful to others and blend in.

[RaspK_FOG]

I suggest 4 + Int skill points per level (since they almost always have a huge Int, and they seem to be semi-dependent on their spells).

It would be best to get 2 c-class skills as class skills instead of one.

The rogue's Skill Mastery ability.

Special bonuses versus Divination and Illusion.

[Osprey]

I'm currently working on a writeup for the Magician class using a 6-level spell list, 6 skill points per level, d6 hit die, and medium BAB (since they lack direct offensive spells, it makes sense that they would be better trained in combat to compensate). Also giving them the bard's ability to ignore casting failure from light armor.

Keep posting ideas, as this is going to take some time to redo the spell list AND write up clas features.

[Osprey]

OK, here's a first draft minus the 0-6th level spell list (that will take more time than I have right this moment). Download the Word file and see what you think. Assume for now that the spell list will more closely parallel the bard's (but lower level Div/Illus spells instead of Enchantment) than the wizard's.

Keep in mind when reviewing this class that it is built to be a viable PC core class. That means it must be roughly comparable in power to other PC classes. I built it so that what it lacks in spellcasting power (compared to wizards) it makes up for in versatility and school specialization.

I'm open to adding more choices for Magician Class Abilities, the ones written in are the only appropriate ones I could think of atm.

[irdeggman]

Overall I like it.

Some comments:

No hand crossbows in BR, that is why they aren't listed on the equip table. They were excluded in 2nd ed too.

Spell progression looks awful similar to a bard's. Except a bard progresses faster at lower levels. Not sure if this is a problem or not - just looks funny.

The way that path school specialty is written in the class table should be path school specialty +1/+2/+3, etc. This is the only difference as the levels go up and matches write ups of similar styled class abilities.

Don't need to specifically state that the class can take craft (alchemy) since it will meet the prerequisites.

I might drop the sp per level to 4 and instead add in a good reflex save. 2 good, 1 poor save might better reflect the class' innate ability to survive and adapt.

Might be a good idea to drop the BAB back to poor though. The class gets essentially 5 bonus feats as it progresses which IMO starts to make it superior to the bard.

In general the 6th level spell progression is probably the way to go. Making any appropriate Div/Ill spells lower level to fit on the list. On another note maybe a 7th level spell prgression table might be better. Would make it different than a bards and makes it easier to add 9th level Div/Ill spells in at 7th level (I have a difficult time justifying giving them 3 levels early, but 2 could work).

Overall I think you are on to something here. Good job.

[RaspK_FOG]

Glad you liked my Skill Mastery and Versatile suggestions (that's the name for the ability, if you want to keep it as such).

I think the Lorewise ability should change so that it works EXACTLY like the bard's Bardic Knowledge.

There's an error in the description of these abilities; just a typo.

Arcane Insight says it goes up by +1 per 4 levels, but the specialty says otherwise.

I would keep the Average BAB and high Will only, too: bit of shows that the bard is somewhere inbetween the rogue and the magician, really, without being the same as any of the two.

Looking good... B)

[Osprey]

No hand crossbows in BR, that is why they aren't listed on the equip table. They were excluded in 2nd ed too.


Oops, I'll drop that out then. An aside: am I alone in thinking that short swords really work fine as simple weapons? :rolleyes: From my own experience with them, they seemed like a pretty simple weapon to just pick up and use effectively.


Spell progression looks awful similar to a bard's. Except a bard progresses faster at lower levels. Not sure if this is a problem or not - just looks funny.

Ummm...are you perhaps comparing bards' Spells Known instead of spells per day? I actually cut and pasted the bard's spells per day progression onto the magician class table, then started bumping up the numbers fairly evenly. This was for the express purpose of keeping magicians similar to bards, yet with more spell-casting abilities. Considering that sorcerers get more spells per day than wizards, it should be considered an extra boost for magicians to get more spells per day than bards, AND have the versatility of more spells known (potentially, if they manage to learn them that many).


Don't need to specifically state that the class can take craft (alchemy) since it will meet the prerequisites.
Cool. Wasn't sure, so I figured it wouldn't hurt to be specific.


I might drop the sp per level to 4 and instead add in a good reflex save. 2 good, 1 poor save might better reflect the class' innate ability to survive and adapt.

Might be a good idea to drop the BAB back to poor though. The class gets essentially 5 bonus feats as it progresses which IMO starts to make it superior to the bard.

I'm right with Rasp on this one - it keeps the Magician somewhat distinct from the bard in having only a high Will save yet still a good BAB. This is also why I didn't include other Dex-based skills like Tumble, Balance, Hide, and Move Silently - these are definitely the province of the more roguish bards, and high Reflex saves are central to that theme.

However, what Magicians should be is highly knowledgable. The fact that they have less skill points than rogues is something of a compromise - while high Int might give them many overall skill points, I don't think this really figures in to class balance. A high Intelligence for any PC requires sacrificing something else - like life-saving hit points from Con or higher AC, Initiative, and Reflex from Dex. In other words, ability scores are largely balanced within themselves.


In general the 6th level spell progression is probably the way to go. Making any appropriate Div/Ill spells lower level to fit on the list. On another note maybe a 7th level spell prgression table might be better. Would make it different than a bards and makes it easier to add 9th level Div/Ill spells in at 7th level (I have a difficult time justifying giving them 3 levels early, but 2 could work).


I've been chewing on that too. I went with 6th level really because that's the bardic progression, which makes a decent parallel class. I agree that 7 levels would be ideal to include the full range of possible spells, but less levels equals more condensing - which also means a degree of compromise in accepting less-than-perfect groupings of spells of various levels from the sorcerer/wizard list.


Overall I think you are on to something here. Good job.

Thanks. :)

[Ksaturn]

Keep up the good work... i like the 7 level progression

[Osprey]

Keep up the good work... i like the 7 level progression

Thanks - did you mean spell levels 0-6 or 0-7 when you say "7 level progression?"

[Osprey]

OK, here's a 1st draft for a 0-6 spell level progression for magicians. Give it a look-through and see what you think. I don't know that it's perfect, but I can tell you making a spell list is really challenging...

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Osprey@Sep 7 2004, 10:14 PM
OK, here's a 1st draft for a 0-6 spell level progression for magicians. Give it a look-through and see what you think. I don't know that it's perfect, but I can tell you making a spell list is really challenging...
Sure is.

Try spell lists for Paladin of Avani and Nesire.


Here are some quick comments:

I’d drop Sidhelien bow from the list. Unlike wizards, who gain a lot of spellcasting knowledge from elven lore or bards whose very spellcasting came from elven bards, a magician is the epitome of human arcane spellcasting. They learn by force of study alone and no natural talent per se (unlike bards, sorcerers or wizards {blooded }).


The shadow spells cause problems at their magician spell levels, especially since the caster doesn't need to know the spell he is replicating {the entire point of the shadow spells}:
Shadow Conjuration (3rd level magician) – allows replicating 3rd level spells
Shadow Conjuration (4th level magician) – allows replicating 5th level spells
Shadow Conjuration, Greater (5th level magician) – allows replicating 8th level spells
Shades (6th level magician) – allows replicating 8th level spells

How about adding Acid Arrow normally a 2nd level Conj spell (fits the bill for magician pattern, IMO)? Gives them at least 1 low level offensive spell.

[Osprey]

I’d drop Sidhelien bow from the list. Unlike wizards, who gain a lot of spellcasting knowledge from elven lore or bards whose very spellcasting came from elven bards, a magician is the epitome of human arcane spellcasting. They learn by force of study alone and no natural talent per se (unlike bards, sorcerers or wizards {blooded }).


Good call. I'll drop it.


How about adding Acid Arrow normally a 2nd level Conj spell (fits the bill for magician pattern, IMO)? Gives them at least 1 low level offensive spell.

That's doable, I think.


The shadow spells cause problems at their magician spell levels, especially since the caster doesn't need to know the spell he is replicating {the entire point of the shadow spells}:
Shadow Conjuration (3rd level magician) – allows replicating 3rd level spells
Shadow Conjuration (4th level magician) – allows replicating 5th level spells
Shadow Conjuration, Greater (5th level magician) – allows replicating 8th level spells
Shades (6th level magician) – allows replicating 8th level spells

Yep, I knew there were going to be hangups when the more potent ones allowed casting over the magician's spell level. You made an oops in your quote there, though, here's the complete range of shadow spells in the list:


Shadow Conjuration (3rd level magician) – allows replicating 3rd level spells (20%)
Shadow Evocation (4th level magician) – allows replicating 4th level spells (20%)
Shadow Conjuration, Greater (5th level) - allows replicating 6th leve spells (60%)
Shadow Evocation, Greater (6th level) - Up to 7th level, 60% real.
Shades (6th level) - spells up to 8th level, 80% real.

When reviewing these lists for balance, look at what level magician is needed to cast the spells rather than the spell level. This will give you a better sense of game balance factors vs. true mages.

As 3rd and 4th level spells, shadow magic allows the magician to replicate Conj and Evoc mage spells of equal level.

When the magician gets 5th and 6th level spells, he starts being able to duplicate higher level mage spells with shadow-stuff.

Now, with the current spellcasting progression, Magicians don't get 5th level spells normally until 11th level (10th if they have INT of 20+!). So Greater Shadow Conjuration would let them replicate a mage spell of an equal-level wizard - but it's only 60% real.

Magicians will normally get 6th level spells at 14th level (13th w/ INT 22+). Greater Shadow Evocation will let them make shadow versions of true magic spells cast by a 13th level wizard...so again, the wizards are the same or better...

The only hangup now is Shades...the 14th level magician could cast shadow conjurations of up to 8th level, and their 80% real...this is, however, only one level before wizards can cast 8th level spells, and Shades was undeniably one of the most powerful spells on the Magician's list. It is also one of the weakest 9th level wizard spells on the list.

So rather than scrap shades, I reasoned that high-level illusory specialists just might be able to replicate potent true magic spells slightly before wizards could do the real thing. One of the few examples of magicians truly being better at their specialty magic than true mages.

So to be honest, I thought long and hard on this one, but decided to keep them on there as they were. These are some of the most important spells that will keep higher-level Magicians viable PC's. That 15th level Illusion specialist is going to be one mean customer...which he should be, as a 15th level PC.

Now the class is going where I wanted it to...where it's unclear which is the better class at any level - say 10th - a wizard, sorcerer, bard, or magician? All have their strengths and weaknesses, each plays a valuable role in an adventuring group, each has some unique abilities that no one else does. Real balance. The wizard can no longer say to the magician (as he could in 2e), "Anything you can do I can do better."

Osprey

[Osprey]

Made a few edits to the Magician class based on previous suggestions. I also added Helpful as another Magician special ability option; this adds a [stacking] +2 bonus when the magician Aids Another with a skill. May be taken more than once.

After some debate, I also added Craft Wondrous Item to the list of bonus feats, mainly because there are a number of one-use elixers and other minor items that seem they would be the province of magicians. As much as I liked Geeman's suggestion that Magicians shouldn't be able to make permanent magic items, I think that will have to be house-ruled because of how it deviates from the 3.5 core rules. The main thing is that magicians will still have a much more limited range of item creation than wizards do, given their smaller spell list, and most of their items will be limited to non-offensive types.

Otherwise just did some clean-up editing to make the Path Specialty progression more explicit, changed Spontaneous casting at 1st level to "Spontaneous Cantrips", some minor spelling errors were corrected, special abilities alphebetized, etc. I'm going to simply edit the download above so that it will now be the updated version.

[irdeggman]

The problem with the greater spells and of course Shades is that they allow the magician to cast a spell of a higher level than he normally could. The spell may even be one on his spell list (at a higher level). So essentially he can cast a higher level spell than he normally could.

Shades just doesn't work as a 6th level spell.

Regardless of the how it looks on paper this just defies the logic test.

Still think that this class is progressing pretty well though.

[Osprey]

The problem with the greater spells and of course Shades is that they allow the magician to cast a spell of a higher level than he normally could. The spell may even be one on his spell list (at a higher level). So essentially he can cast a higher level spell than he normally could.

Except that spell DC's are based on the shadow spell's level, so they're going to be somewhat easier to disbelieve than a wizard casting them (this is true of any spell that gets reduced in levels) - an Illusion specialist magician will only be compensating with his path specialties.


Shades just doesn't work as a 6th level spell.

Regardless of the how it looks on paper this just defies the logic test.

I'm still not sure I agree with that. Since the Magician is mimicking true magic rather than his own spells, and these classes have different levels of spell progression, I don't think making a straight spell level comparison is really accurate application of "the logic test."
If the only real argument against it is that it looks funny or seems odd to have a 6th level magician spell replicate 8th level mage spells...is this really a serious problem, or just unusual and therefore difficult to accept?

It would be nice to get some other opinions here in order to get a sense of how others feel about this issue, and the spell list and class writeup in general. Exactly 4 people (including myself) have posted on the subject. Anyone else?

If there's a bit more general acceptance on these 2 proposals then perhaps they can be polled for sanctioning. So speak up if you have an opinion on the matter!

Osprey

[ConjurerDragon]

Osprey schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2819

>

> Osprey wrote:

>

>

>------------ QUOTE ----------

>

...



>unusual and therefore difficult to accept?It would be nice to get some other opinions here in order to get a sense of how others feel about this issue, and the spell list and class writeup in general. Exactly 4 people (including myself) have posted on the subject. Anyone else?If there`s a bit more general acceptance on these 2 proposals then perhaps they can be polled for sanctioning. So speak up if you have an opinion on the matter! Osprey

>

When you ask for it ;-)

I have remained silent, as my imagination of the Magician is far

different from most stuff presented in the last mails.



- I have no objection of a Magician casting Magic Missile as the 2E

Magician was able to cast 1st and 2nd level spells of ALL schools. The

Book of Magecraft even had a Magician who researched a Magic Missile as

Battle spell - that might have been broken gamebalance, but taking that

spell away from the Magician entirely seems strange to me.

- I always saw the Magician as in the 2E version as mainly a

doublespecialized Mage with fewer schools of Magic, and with 1+2 level

spells of all schools and some Thief abilitys to compensate, so I do

not understand the need to take away the spells of higher levels from

the Magician. There might be only few spells of Illusion and Divination

of the higher levels above 6 but why take them away from him? If he

knows only few levels of that spell he can always fill those slots with

spells that have been raised to that level by metamagic feats.

- Should Magicians need Wizards to create their instruments for them,

e.g. the typical Crystal Ball that every specialist in Divination would

desire? I think no, so I would allow Magicians to take the Create

Wondrous Item feat - why not every specialist Wizard can take it.

bye

Michael

[The Jew]

I agree with Duane on this. I don't have a problem with any of the shadow spells, but I think that Shades is to strong for a 6th level magician spell. I would vote to either drop it, or extend the magicians spell selection to 7th level (8 levels total) and make Shades a 7th level spell.

Otherwise I think the Class looks great. Wonderful job Osprey :wub:

[RaspK_FOG]

B)

[The Jew]

Originally posted by RaspK_FOG@Sep 8 2004, 07:58 PM
B)
I totally agree with Raspk on this.

[Osprey]

The Jew wrote:

I agree with Duane on this. I don't have a problem with any of the shadow spells, but I think that Shades is to strong for a 6th level magician spell. I would vote to either drop it, or extend the magicians spell selection to 7th level (8 levels total) and make Shades a 7th level spell.

Duly noted. Anyone else?


Otherwise I think the Class looks great. Wonderful job Osprey
Thank'ee, sir.

ConjurerDragon wrote:

- I have no objection of a Magician casting Magic Missile as the 2E
Magician was able to cast 1st and 2nd level spells of ALL schools. The
Book of Magecraft even had a Magician who researched a Magic Missile as
Battle spell - that might have been broken gamebalance, but taking that
spell away from the Magician entirely seems strange to me.

Hmmm...well that being said, I'm leaning toward adding it in to the spell list. It does fit one vision of the magician, to be certain.

Anyone else? To Magic Missile or not to Magic Missile? That is the question...


- Should Magicians need Wizards to create their instruments for them,
e.g. the typical Crystal Ball that every specialist in Divination would
desire? I think no, so I would allow Magicians to take the Create
Wondrous Item feat - why not every specialist Wizard can take it.
Agreed.


- I always saw the Magician as in the 2E version as mainly a
doublespecialized Mage with fewer schools of Magic, and with 1+2 level
spells of all schools and some Thief abilitys to compensate, so I do
not understand the need to take away the spells of higher levels from
the Magician. There might be only few spells of Illusion and Divination
of the higher levels above 6 but why take them away from him? If he
knows only few levels of that spell he can always fill those slots with
spells that have been raised to that level by metamagic feats.


So you favor a more or less straight spellcasting conversion, plus some rogue-type class abilities to compensate. I was building a list based on the last poll which said most folks preferred a BRCS-style "boosted" spell list.

The problem with rogue abilities, IMO, is that the magician looks a little TOO much like the bard, while I was aiming for a more wizardly type of class that more parallels than overlaps with the bard - though in my last writeup their spell lists are somewhat comparable with different emphasis of schools.

I can understand the concept for certain rogue abilities (evasion, high Reflex) - even Sneak Attack makes sense for divination specialists getting insightful attacks against weak points - but I think this better fits a certain niche of sorcerers - rogue/magicians are great candidates to become Arcane Tricksters, who might fit your concept very well in their combination of arcane and rogue powers.

Osprey

[Ksaturn]

While i'm Hesitant to remove shadow spells(a staple of the illusion school) I agree in that they are powerful and should either be altered to fit lower level versions(seems bad). or left at thier level while the others are bumped down. I'm in favor of a 7 level system but would accept 6 or 9 as easily.

[geeman]

At 05:49 AM 9/9/2004 +0200, Osprey wrote:



>>I agree with Duane on this. I don`t have a problem with any of the shadow

>>spells, but I think that Shades is to strong for a 6th level magician

>>spell. I would vote to either drop it, or extend the magicians spell

>>selection to 7th level (8 levels total) and make Shades a 7th level spell.

>

>Duly noted. Anyone else?



Well, when coming up with a spell list a while back I noted that I think

the shadow oriented spells would be quite appropriate for a magician

oriented prestige class, so I`ll reiterate that here. On the whole I think

that would make for a more interesting character class D20 system.



I understand prestige classes are being avoided, but in addition to the

argument that the shadow spells allow access to what is, effectively, true

magic in the BR setting (albeit a diminished version of true magic) the SW

has such a particular role in the campaign that I think very nature of

those spells lend themselves to true magic rather than that available to

"common" magicians.



>I have no objection of a Magician casting Magic Missile as the 2EMagician

>was able to cast 1st and 2nd level spells of ALL schools. TheBook of

>Magecraft even had a Magician who researched a Magic Missile asBattle

>spell - that might have been broken gamebalance, but taking thatspell away

>from the Magician entirely seems strange to me.

>-----------------------------

>

>Hmmm...well that being said, I`m leaning toward adding it in to the spell

>list. It does fit one vision of the magician, to be certain.Anyone

>else? To Magic Missile or not to Magic Missile? That is the question...



I`m pro Magicians w/ MM.



Gary

[RaspK_FOG]

I am in agreement with the rest of the populace: No biggy "Shadow [what eve]" spells.
Yes to Marvelous Magic Missile (©2004 3M :P ).

[Osprey]

OK, so 2 changes at least to amend to the spell list:

Magic Missile will be added as a 1st level spell. I will, however, keep the elemental effects (like Shocking Grasp, Burning Hands, and Flaming Sphere) off the list.

Shades will be removed, and I will bump Greater Shadow Conjuration up to 6th level...

Now, what I'd like to do is amend Greater Shadow Evocation so that the Magician version of the spell duplicates mage spells up to 6th level only, but is still 60% real.
It's not exactly true to standardized form, but I think it's a better solution that simply eliminating it and leaving only the regular Shadow Evocation (4th level/20% real). If that's not acceptable I can always make an in-between version, like Improved Shadow Evocation or something.


Well, when coming up with a spell list a while back I noted that I think
the shadow oriented spells would be quite appropriate for a magician
oriented prestige class, so I`ll reiterate that here. On the whole I think
that would make for a more interesting character class D20 system.

I understand prestige classes are being avoided, but in addition to the
argument that the shadow spells allow access to what is, effectively, true
magic in the BR setting (albeit a diminished version of true magic) the SW
has such a particular role in the campaign that I think very nature of
those spells lend themselves to true magic rather than that available to
"common" magicians.

I remember your previous posts on the subject. I think you could make a Shadow Mage prestige class without eliminating the shadow spells from the Magician spell list. You'd just have to be a little more creative. ;)

As the Shadow World is so intimately connected to Illusion (the Seeming is what I consider "shadowstuff", the manifest fabric of the SW), it seems wrong to me to seperate the SW from magicians. I don't think this is at all the province only of true magic, I think magicians should be rather expert at dealing with its illusory nature - or at least that aspect of it.

However, true mages still have a much more powerful and solid connection to it, as represented by spells like Summon Monster, Dimension Door, Teleport, Planar Binding, Etherealness, and so on. The magician is left only with quasi-real mimicry of some of this stuff, and simple exclusion from the rest. I think this is a picture-perfect example of lesser vs. true magic. The magician can only imitate the real thing, but good illusions CAN be convincing and thus just as effective, at least to the weak-minded...

As removing the shadow spells would significantly weaken the magician's spell list, and for the reasons above as to why I like them, I'm going to leave most of them unless there's a large chorus of agreement that they should be removed.

Osprey

[irdeggman]

Here is another poll to be closed, if only to clear up the outstanding polls.


Results are:

How should we define them?
Use bonuses based on being "specialists". [ 0 ] [0.00%]
Use special abilities above being "specialists". [ 2 ] [28.57%]
Use a combination of the above as inspiration. [ 5 ] [71.43%]
Total Votes: 7