Alternative Magic Systems for B

[Tim Nutting]

Some interesting ideas, but let me share some insights from what I've read and
used.

From what I've read in the books, there are three great distinctions of magic
in BR: Lesser Magic, True Magic, and Realm Magic.

Lesser Magic is of the self and of the mind. Force of will is essentially what
makes this magic possible. With the explanation of it provided, it makes sense
that psionics is not in BR (at least officially). Of course, lesser magic can
be worked by any wizard, but is especially the province of Magicians. Lesser
magic is technically levels 1 & 2.

True Magic has a source that is outside the normal world, but this source is
not the mebhaighl (sp?). While the actual source is technically undefined, I
have surmised that it is in some way tied to the "evanescence." Exactly what
that force is, or how it works, I have not yet discovered, yet certain books in
BR seem to indicate that it is responsible for keeping the Shadow World from
Aebyrnis. Shaping this magic requires a bit of magic in the blood,
traditionally, so that a human must have at least a drop of the Blood, and any
Sidhelien or any who might be half-elven can wield it as well. True magic is
technically levels 3 and above, excluding Illusion and Greater Divination.

Finally there is the Realm Magic, outlined well in the books, and powered by
the mebhaighl. The books do say that without at least the spark of divine
blood in your system, the sheer power would literally burn a person up, no
matter their race.

In my own games I use the Channelers almost to exclusion. I developed an
alternative magic system based on the Ghul Lord kit in the Al-Qadim Complete
Sha'ir's Handbook and published on Darkstar's page as the Sorcerer.

To distinguish the difference in the powers of Lesser and True magic, I award
bonus spell points for levels 1 & 2 based on WIS in addition to CON. Each
score is compared to the chart in Spells & Magic, and the magician is given the
bonus points. For True Magic, the wizard adds his Blood Score to his available
spell points, simulating the added endurance the divine spark bestows.

Yes, this makes wizards and magicians all the more powerful, but I have found
that in using this, no longer are my PCs nonchalant about facing a wizard.

Tim Nutting

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Craig Greeson wrote:
>
> CHANNELLERS [Channellers draw magical power from within themselves,
> causing fatigue when low levels of magic are used and potentially
> doing permanent harm if they overextend themselves]:
> Mages seem to logically be Channellers. The thought they draw power
> from within themselves rather than the mebhaighl around them helps
> explain why their abilities are limited when compared to true wizards.

Before using this system you should realise a few things. I play tested
it in a few short adventures that were some events of important family
history of the main PC's. The mages power in direct combat is reduced
with this system. His power in times when time is not an essence his
power is greatly enlarged. With one invisibility spell for instance he
can make the whole party invisible at third level. The duration of this
spell is after all 24 hours.

[Craig Greeson]

Tim Nutting wrote:

> Some interesting ideas, but let me share some insights from what I've read and
> used.
> True Magic has a source that is outside the normal world, but this source is
> not the mebhaighl (sp?). While the actual source is technically undefined, I
> have surmised that it is in some way tied to the "evanescence."

Is the fact True Magic doesn't rely on mebhaighl something you've invented
in you own campaign, or does this come from a BR resource? I always
thought the Book of Magecraft (pg. 4 to be exact) was fairly clear on the
fact mebhaighl is used in all non-priest spell casting. It definitely does
say that a true wizard either needs to have Sidhelien blood or a
post-Deismaar bloodline. My rationale for allowing non-blooded witches to
cast true magic is that I wasn't really envisioning them as "casting" the
spell. Rather, they are receiving the magic from the dark arcane power
they've made a pact with and are simply acting as a conduit for the power's
magical ability.

>
> Finally there is the Realm Magic, outlined well in the books, and powered by
> the mebhaighl. The books do say that without at least the spark of divine
> blood in your system, the sheer power would literally burn a person up, no
> matter their race.
>

I definitely agree that non-blooded wizards should never be allowed access
to Realm Magic.

> In my own games I use the Channelers almost to exclusion. I developed an
> alternative magic system based on the Ghul Lord kit in the Al-Qadim Complete
> Sha'ir's Handbook and published on Darkstar's page as the Sorcerer.

I just took a look at your Sorcerer subclass. Very interesting.

> To distinguish the difference in the powers of Lesser and True magic, I award
> bonus spell points for levels 1 & 2 based on WIS in addition to CON. Each
> score is compared to the chart in Spells & Magic, and the magician is given the
> bonus points. For True Magic, the wizard adds his Blood Score to his available
> spell points, simulating the added endurance the divine spark bestows.

Are you saying a 1st level wizard in your campaign with a bloodline score
of 30 would have 34 spell points, rather than the 4 they would normally
have? That seemed a bit overwhelming to me at first, but I guess you are
using the "Channellers" alternative magic system. Because of this, casting
spells is always going to cause at least temporary fatigue, limiting the
wizards spell casting ability in the short term regardless of how many
spell points he/she has.

Thanks for the input Tim.

Regards
Craig

[Craig Greeson]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
>
> Craig Greeson wrote:
> >
> > CHANNELLERS [Channellers draw magical power from within themselves,
> > causing fatigue when low levels of magic are used and potentially
> > doing permanent harm if they overextend themselves]:
> > Mages seem to logically be Channellers. The thought they draw power
> > from within themselves rather than the mebhaighl around them helps
> > explain why their abilities are limited when compared to true wizards.
>
> Before using this system you should realise a few things. I play tested
> it in a few short adventures that were some events of important family
> history of the main PC's. The mages power in direct combat is reduced
> with this system. His power in times when time is not an essence his
> power is greatly enlarged. With one invisibility spell for instance he
> can make the whole party invisible at third level. The duration of this
> spell is after all 24 hours.

Yes, I was concerned about your very point regarding long-lasting spells.
In order to combat this, I was planning on tweaking the rules for
Channeller spell point recovery. By making mages take longer when resting
to regain their spell points, that will (hopefully) keep them from
indiscriminately casting a number of longer duration spells prior to some
type of encounter. I definitely want to make sure mage characters don't
try to take a nap after each spell they cast. That's where the
not-so-random encounter table comes in. [DM: "So, in order to rest up
you're going to take a nap in the Gorgon's private bathroom, ehh? Let me
roll a couple of dice here to see if anything "happens" by while you're
sleeping....]

You mentioned that mages power in direct combat is reduced but they can do
more when time is not a concern if the Channeller rules are used. This, to
some extent, is what I'm going for. I want there to be obvious differences
in the way mages and true wizards operate, not just different spells
available. To me, it makes sense that a true wizard, who taps into all the
mebhaighl around him, could do a lot more in a short time period than a
lesser mage who must scratch and claw in order to generate a magical
effect. Of course, no player in my campaign would ever want to play a
lesser mage, so I don't really have to worry about them being weaker than
true wizards in "adventure" settings.

As far as the invisibility spell goes, I never understood why it should
last so long. IMC its duration is 1 hr./level of the caster.

Regards
Craig

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Craig Greeson wrote:

> Is the fact True Magic doesn't rely on mebhaighl something you've invented
> in you own campaign, or does this come from a BR resource? I always
> thought the Book of Magecraft (pg. 4 to be exact) was fairly clear on the
> fact mebhaighl is used in all non-priest spell casting. It definitely does
> say that a true wizard either needs to have Sidhelien blood or a
> post-Deismaar bloodline. My rationale for allowing non-blooded witches to
> cast true magic is that I wasn't really envisioning them as "casting" the
> spell. Rather, they are receiving the magic from the dark arcane power
> they've made a pact with and are simply acting as a conduit for the power's
> magical ability.

I think that must be from Tim's personal vision, because I've always
assumed that both true magic and realm magic require mebhaighl as well.
True magic can be cast from the "ambient" levels of mebhaighl that's
around all the time (I have toyed with the idea of having spells cast in
the wilderness cast as if the caster was one level higher) but that realm
spells require a direct connection to an immense supply of the stuff (i.e.
a Source).

And, by the way, if you're interested in Witches, I did a write-up for a
Cerilian witch kit that is also on the Netbook.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Craig Greeson wrote:
>
> Yes, I was concerned about your very point regarding long-lasting
> spells. In order to combat this, I was planning on tweaking the rules
> for Channeller spell point recovery. By making mages take longer when
> resting to regain their spell points, that will (hopefully) keep them
> from indiscriminately casting a number of longer duration spells prior
> to some type of encounter. I definitely want to make sure mage
> characters don't try to take a nap after each spell they cast. That's
> where the not-so-random encounter table comes in.

The problem was not only the number of spell points, but also the
effects of fatigue. When the mage takes care with waiting between
casting spells, the fatigue effects could almost be ignored. I tested
the system with a 6th lvl wizard, so for lower level mages this might
not be hapening because they have fewer spellpoints. I would certainly
advice against using the free-spell for double costs. If you intent the
use of this system solely for magicians, then it might not be such a bad
idea. It will make them somewhat more interesting to players.

One last remark, keeping check of spellpoints, fatigue and fatigue
effects costed a lot of paperwork and attention. While for a player this
not that difficult, it is not that easy for DM's who have to pay
attention to a lot more then one character.

[Tim Nutting]

> Is the fact True Magic doesn't rely on mebhaighl something you've invented
> in you own campaign, or does this come from a BR resource?

The Rulebook in the boxed set. I believe it is in the description of the
Wizard class.

> I just took a look at your Sorcerer subclass. Very interesting.

I can hardly take much credit for it, though.

> Are you saying a 1st level wizard in your campaign with a bloodline score
> of 30 would have 34 spell points, rather than the 4 they would normally have?

No. A 1st level wizard cannot access True Magic. These points are only
allowed for 3rd level spells and above. As a side note, I only allow wizards
to reach one level above with the Channeling rules.

1st-9th level is powered by spell points

1st & 2nd, Illusion, and Greater Divination, are allowed extra points from WIS
& CON.

3rd - 9th (non Illusion/G. Div) are allowed extra based on Blood Score.

This makes wizards of prominent families very powerful, but then again, just
how many prominent families are there? If all your players consistently have
greater than Minor or Tainted bloodlines, then the game is being overbalanced
by magic, IMNSHO, no offense :)

> Thanks for the input Tim.

np, thanks for the question.

Game on.
Tim Nutting

[Kenneth Gauck]

>One last remark, keeping check of spellpoints, fatigue and fatigue
>effects costed a lot of paperwork and attention. While for a player this
>not that difficult, it is not that easy for DM's who have to pay
>attention to a lot more then one character.
>
In my experience, all of the Player's Option stuff needs to be someting the
players do. Its way too much book keeping to manage all the paperwork for a
DM. If the players can't do it honestly, then stick with vanilla AD&D. If
they want to, and you trust them, it can be lots of fun.

[Tim Nutting]

> In my experience, all of the Player's Option stuff needs to be someting the
> players do. Its way too much book keeping to manage all the paperwork for a
> DM. If the players can't do it honestly, then stick with vanilla AD&D. If
> they want to, and you trust them, it can be lots of fun.


Ahhh, trust the players....

A little judicious book keeping helps too. I ask my plaers for a photocopy of
their character sheets every two months or so, just so I can keep an eye on
what they are writing down and what they think they have, etc.

On a side note, if you're just using Skills & Powers, the Core Rules v2.0
should let you as DM keep a current record of what they have and don't, and the
levels and XP, etc.

Last, I've tried, and found that it works, to have a chart (made mine in Excel)
that has relevant stats and saves, and stuff like HP, and SP. A simple grid
chart with their last recorded XP cuts down on mysterious awards that you as DM
really don't remember giving, no matter what the players say. :)

Tim Nutting

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Tim Nutting wrote:
>
> > In my experience, all of the Player's Option stuff needs to be someting the
> > players do. Its way too much book keeping to manage all the paperwork for a
> > DM. If the players can't do it honestly, then stick with vanilla AD&D. If
> > they want to, and you trust them, it can be lots of fun.
>
> Ahhh, trust the players....
>
> A little judicious book keeping helps too. I ask my plaers for a photocopy of
> their character sheets every two months or so, just so I can keep an eye on
> what they are writing down and what they think they have, etc.
>
> On a side note, if you're just using Skills & Powers, the Core Rules v2.0
> should let you as DM keep a current record of what they have and don't, and the
> levels and XP, etc.
>
> Last, I've tried, and found that it works, to have a chart (made mine in Excel)
> that has relevant stats and saves, and stuff like HP, and SP. A simple grid
> chart with their last recorded XP cuts down on mysterious awards that you as DM
> really don't remember giving, no matter what the players say. :)
>
> Tim Nutting

I just keep the character sheets with me. Not because I do not trust my
players, but because they tend to forget them.

[Kenneth Gauck]

>Ahhh, trust the players....


I was of course refering to the mid-adventure calculations of damage to
armor, spell points, how much food everyone has, every last piece of
equipment (esp charms and herbs), money, blood powers, and so forth.

I keep track of hp's, exp's, and proficencies

bookeeping between adventures is just part of the job. But if I was
required to account for all of the above during an adventure, every action
would take forever. Players know their own bookeeping needs better than I
do, and my players have often cought penalties I missed imposing. Its
reassuring when a player who you thought was down to a few hps declares
himself unconcious.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Sindre Berg]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> >Ahhh, trust the players....
>
> I was of course refering to the mid-adventure calculations of damage
> to
> armor, spell points, how much food everyone has, every last piece of
> equipment (esp charms and herbs), money, blood powers, and so forth.
>
> I keep track of hp's, exp's, and proficencies
>
> bookeeping between adventures is just part of the job. But if I was
> required to account for all of the above during an adventure, every
> action
> would take forever. Players know their own bookeeping needs better
> than I
> do, and my players have often cought penalties I missed imposing. Its
>
> reassuring when a player who you thought was down to a few hps
> declares
> himself unconcious.
>
> Kenneth Gauck
> c558382@earthlink.net
>
> *********************
> ************************************************** ***
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
> About the hp's and bookeeping, our DM had a other system... He kept the
hp's secret through the entire adventure, so as to keep us players more
on our toes...It helped us make more "realistic" choices..."How hard did
the monster hit us ? Very hard, your arm almost fell off..." It might
be an idea to try for some DM's though it puts more bookeeping work on
the DM..

- --
Sindre

Take a look at my homepage and Birthright PBMG at:

www.uio.no/~sindrejb

[Tim Nutting]

> I was of course refering to the mid-adventure calculations of damage to
> armor, spell points, how much food everyone has, every last piece of
> equipment (esp charms and herbs), money, blood powers, and so forth.


:-)

Yah, I know.

If they don't know the rules, the game doesn't run. Unfortunately, that's
Pandora's Box, because once the argumentative ones get hold of the rules...
well.

Oh yeah. Friends, I know I'm bickering about rules lawyering, but I'm not
asking for advice on how to fix it. Thanx anyway. ;-)

Tim Nutting.

[Jan Arnoldus]

At 18:44 30-10-98 -0600, you wrote:
>Greetings all,
> I'm getting ready to start a new campaign, and am considering
>trying to play up the "different nature" of magic in Aebrynnis. Does
>anyone use the alternative magic systems outlined in the Player's
>Option: Spells & Magic book?

Here's a repost of the system I'm using. I had posted it just before the
great GS debate and I guess it was kind of snowed under.

*******
Together with a player of mine we just have worked out the spellpoints system
according to S&M (the variants we wanted to use).

We decided on the defiler/preserver for the mages as they draw their magic
from the land.
With the following system.

Wizard spellpoints
Non-blooded mages draw 4 + 1/level per round
Blooded mages draw 8 + 1/level per round
Source-holding mages draw 8 + (1+sm)/level per round
sm = Source-modifier = Square Root of the source level of the source (if
any) they hold
in the province their in. (round fractions down)
Sielehr stones do count towards sourcelevels, leylines do not.
Rumour has it that mages with an Azrai-derivation and Awnsheglien know how
to defile the lands to extract even more power in a short time.

for example
Rheulaan Greencloak 20th level M-U has a source 9 in berhagen and a source 7
in unbraustadt
he draws 8 + [1+sqrt(9)]*20=88 in berhagen
and 8 + [1+sqrt(7)]*20=68 in unbraustadt
So the magic numbers for sourceholdings are 1, 4, 9

We decided on the channeler for the priests as they are the conduits of the
power of their god. With the following system.

Priest spellpoints
Non-blooded priests use the normal rules
Blooded priests can add 1 to their level for determination of the
fatigue effects
of their casting.
Temple Holding priests can add the level of their temple holdings in the
province (if any)
to their level for determination of the fatigue
effects of their
casting. This is added to the +1 they already have


Bard spellpoints are resolved as per the rules for mages
Paladin & Ranger spellpoints are resolved as per the rules for priests

We feel that this system provides a good "Birthright"-feeling to the S&M
magic rules.
There is an advantage for the blooded in recognition of their divine ancestry.
Furthermore the regents have an advantage when they are on their home turf.
This in recognition of the powerbase they have established.
The net effect of these rules should inspire PC's to first built their own
powerbase and
try to diminish that of their opponents before the direct confrontation.
Thus making players play before they fight.

Any comments are welcome, Tony Lemmers & Jan Arnoldus

"May the silver light of the sacred Moon "You don't control
Mebhaighl you just
protect you from the Shadow World experience it"
and lead you to secret sources of power." quote attributed to Daegandal

[Craig Greeson]

Jan Arnoldus wrote:
> Together with a player of mine we just have worked out the spellpoints system
> according to S&M (the variants we wanted to use).
>
> We decided on the defiler/preserver for the mages as they draw their magic
> from the land.
> With the following system.
>
> Wizard spellpoints
> Non-blooded mages draw 4 + 1/level per round
> Blooded mages draw 8 + 1/level per round
> Source-holding mages draw 8 + (1+sm)/level per round
> sm = Source-modifier = Square Root of the source level of the source (if
> any) they hold in the province their in. (round fractions down)
> Sielehr stones do count towards sourcelevels, leylines do not.
> Rumour has it that mages with an Azrai-derivation and Awnsheglien know how
> to defile the lands to extract even more power in a short time.

I like Jan's idea of source-holding mages being able to draw more mebhaighl
in areas where they control sources. This seems very logical, but I hadn't
thought of it before. They are very much in tune with the magical
potential of that particular area, so it makes sense they should have
enhanced power there. I am going to adopt this IMC. It still makes sense
to me that non-blooded mages have to cast spells using their own energy,
not the mebhaighl that surrounds them. For this reason, I think I'm still
going to use the Channeller rules for non-blooded mages. This also helps
to make the 2 classes very different.

Regards
Craig

[Kenneth Gauck]

In my campaign, priest are all channellers and all priest spells are
automatically free magicks. *However,* the spell list I provide characters
is complicated and one of the effects is to compensate for the free magick
access to spells. Here is how it works.

Dieties have aspects. For example, Avani is the godess of the Sun, goddess
of Reason, goddess of Magic, and goddess of the Khinasi people. Each of
these aspects is worshiped differently by her priests, and their doctrines
are slighlty different. Hence their spell choices are not identical.

Compare the stated "generic" priest of Avani with the following:
Priest of Sun
req Profeciency- Calendrics
Spheres: Major- normal (All, Elemental [fire], Protection, Sun, Thought);
less one level (Divination, Healing,); less two levels (Numbers)
Minor- normal (creation) less one level (charm) less two levels(travelers)

So at first level the priest can only cast from all, elemental [fire],
protection, sun, thought, creation.

When the priest can cast second level spells, the gain access to divination,
healing, and charm, but these spells are treated as being one level higher
than normal. So "cure light wounds" is a second level spell for priests of
Avani.

Each sect within Avani temples is different, and priests of the sun and
priests of reason are different. Not surprsingly, the aspect of Patron of
the Khinasi includes more emphasis on defence and combat.

To make things easy I print a unique spell list for every PC priest, and for
major villians.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net