Elven Birth Control

[JD Lail]

>Gary Foss wrote;'

>My take on the half-elf situation, however, is that elves aren't that noble.
> Because they tend to be chaotic neutral they are just as likely to
>be naughty as nice, so taking advantage of a human female or two is probably
>not that big a deal to them.

I agree, good point!



>She's also ridiculously easy to Charm. Humans are incredibly vulnerable to the
>spell that forms the centerpoint of elven magic, especially in comparison to
>the elven 90% resistance to it. That spell alone is what makes it so easy for
>elves to kiss the girls and make them cry. According to my estimates, about
>one in fifty elves is a mage, and all of those guys and gals would have access
>to the Charm Person spell. Taking a cue from their sylvan friends, the dryads,
>why wouldn't an elf use that spell in the same way? Seduction could easily
>happen through the normal dating process, or by chasing a gal through the woods
>a la Apollo and Daphne, but the casting time of a Charm Person spell is 1
>segment. Six seconds to irresistibility? Who could resist that? It makes
>Viagra look like an aspirin.

If the elves ever wanted to dramatically increase the number of half elves this
would work just fine. Given that most of these children are going to end up
living in elven lands because of their treatment it would be a quicker way of
raising up their populations than trying to increase the elven birthrate.

IMO this could be a good plot device.

L8R

[Whalejudge@aol.co]

You also get half-elves when two half-elves have kids. Or, according to the
PHB, when an elf and a half-elf have kids.

[Gary V. Foss]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> OK, my life is wierd. Let me give you an example.
>
> Last night I had a wonderful time at a Holloween party. I went as the
> High Mage Aelies (Vulcan ears, Renaissaince Faire outfit, and magic wand),
> and my wife went as Marlae Roesone. We had a good time.
>
> This morning, in the shower, I was thinking. About Aelies. He's a
> half-elf. There are quite a few half-elves mentioned in the region books
> for Cerilia, certainly more than you would really imagine given the state
> of relations between the two races. I'm also a biologist, so my brain
> started working on that problem.
>
> Culturally, it doesn't seem to fit. To get a half-elf, you need a human
> and an elven parent, but the two races don't mix that much. Human
> populations tend to be strictly controlled in elven lands (Tuarhievel
> being about the least strict), but even there I wouldn't imagine there to
> be a whole lot of interspecies dalliance going on.
>
> It could be rape. It certainly happens; it's not always a nice world.
> However, it is almost certain that such cases would be human men raping
> elven women. I really don't see members of the G.S. raping human women, I
> wouldn't think they would find them any more attractive than the average
> goblin female (but I suppose everyone has their own tastes). Besides, I
> generally play all elves as extremely noble, possessing and displaying the
> traits that most knights of Haelyn only aspire to. In fact, it is very
> important to them, to maintain the standards of the great elven kingdoms
> of the past. It's just that they see humans=goblins=racial enemy,
> therefore kill, or at least keep a wary eye on. But they would no sooner
> rape a female than they would kick their mothers. It just don't seem very
> elvish to me (although there are exceptions, of course--and Rhoubhe has
> collected many of them).
>
> But we know that half-elves born into elven society are fully accepted.
> They are probably happy there, and might not feel very much like
> encountering the anger and hostility of the human half of their
> parentage. And yet, when we think of half-elves, and see them in the
> region books, they are typically among men. Which to me says that they
> were born to human mothers.
>
> Which leads me to the conclusions that there are a goodly number of elven
> men sleeping with human women in human lands. (Ok, by goodly, I don't mean
> that it's an epidemic, just slighly more common than you would really
> expect.) This does make a certain amount of sense. I can think of two
> types of human females (ok stereotypes) who would consider sleeping with
> an elf. First, bored noble ladies who are required to sit at home in the
> manor while the menfolk go out and play at bashing each other with their
> swords. I can certainly see that resentment towards their lot in life
> might make noble women want to get some of their own (esp. when their
> husbands are no doubt willing to put out for any barmaid who seems mildly
> interested). Second, peasant women. Although it certainly would not apply
> to all, I can certainly see where it might be an attractive option for a
> certain class of people with little hope for advancement any other way: a
> peasant girl might see it as a chance to get ahead: her child, after all,
> will have elven blood and therefore be able to be a true wizard.
>
> However, at this point, I run into the problem with my concept of elven
> nobility again. I cannot imagine that an elf would not know the
> consequences for the woman if she gets pregnant, and knowing those
> consequences would so blighly sleep with them. This thing of mine for
> elven nobility is not really something I can go around, either, because in
> my conception of Cerilia, the elves are really important for the big
> picture. It is only through the influence of the elves and their morality
> and nobility that humans can hope to grow beyond their medieval feudal
> social system, if they can ever learn to talk to and respect the elves,
> rather than fear and kill them. That's something not even Haelyn can do
> for them, because even though he's a god, he's still limited by his
> cultural world-view as to the way things should be. That's why, in my
> games, if there is ever going to be a new Emperor of Anuire, he or she is
> going to first have to be an Elf-friend. Because no one is going to follow
> anyone with the same old post-imperial rhetoric any more. It's going to
> have to be something new and inspiriational, that will give them the
> feeling of being lifted above their current level of understanding, so
> they see the world afresh.
>
> Which means, to me, that the elven males getting human females pregnant,
> DON'T THINK IT'S THEIR FAULT. And this implies some social and biological
> differences between the species, which struck me as interesting and fun
> while I was rinsing shampoo out of my eyes, and brings me to the topic
> which I placed in my header for this message.
>
> What if reprocuction among elves is controlled solely by the female? The
> female chooses whether she is going to get pregnant or not from a
> particular episode of intercourse. This would help explain the extremely
> low birth rate among elves (necessary to balance out their extremely long
> lifespan) and still allow plently of sex, which strikes me as fundamental
> to a vibrant, passionate elven culuture.
>
> It also explains why elven males don't feel that they are responsible for
> getting human women pregnent. As far as they know, they had no control
> over it. They probably feel extremely flattered when human women get
> pregnant, because they think that the women knew the risks, AND DECIDED TO
> GET PREGNENT ANYWAY. Most elves probably just don't realize the
> reproductive differences between the races, and it's not a subject that is
> very likely to come up at state events and ambassadorial dinner parties.
>
> A couple more tangents, and I'll close down this diatribe. I also had a
> brainstorm on how elven women do control their reproduction. Most of our
> theories of the nature of the elven race makes them very elemental. We
> have theories about elven souls decomposing into spiritual essences of the
> elements when they die (details available in the BR Netbook). Well,
> perhaps the same goes for the start of life: perhaps in order for an elven
> female to get pregnant there must be a source of all four of the elements
> present. Leave one of the elements out--blow out the candle--and you just
> don't get pregnant. The ultimate in planned parenthood: the elves must go
> through a near ritual, making sure there is a sufficient elemental source
> of all four elements before pregnancy occurs.
>
> Further, it might be possible for elven parents to influence what kind of
> personality their offspring might have. Intercourse near a large
> waterfall, with a small fire, might produce offspring with a very
> different personality than intercourse near a huge bonfire beside a small
> stream. And intercourse with a lantern, on newly turned soil in a gentle
> spring rain a personality very different again. You could start to think
> of elves with "elemental" personalities. If you need an elven NPC on the
> quick, think of a place you've been to, and imagine what sort of
> personality that might produce in a newly conceived elf. This sort of
> imaginative, off-the-cuff, intuitive approach works very well for me, but
> probably won't for everyone.
>
> Finally, I hope I haven't offended anyone with this discussion. That was
> not my intention, and if I did, then I heartily appologize. But I thought
> it was an interesting idea, and I thought I would share.

My God, Mark! Sex in AD&D?!? The sanctity of the dice are sullied for all
eternity! I'm going to have to password protect my PC now, lest some teenager
come along and read about procreation and get IDEAS from it....

I'm sure the readers on this board are mature enough to handle some sexually
oriented material.... If not, please do not read any further.

First, I like the stuff on elven birth control. I've tried similar methods in
my own love life, particularly in regard to the candles and the waterfalls.
I've found that among human females these are often more like aphrodisiacs
rather than prophylactics, but in the immortal words of Crumb "Keep on
Trucking!!!" Thematically speaking, however, I don't have any objection to the
concept you described as applied to elves. Especially since it presents the
possibility of a young elven lad penning an erotic story that begins:

Dear Treehouse Forum,
I am a young wizard apprentice in the forests of the Sielwode. I never thought
any of those stories in your magazine would happen to me, until one rainy
afternoon I answered a knock on my dorm room door and saw two of the sexiest
elven babes I'd ever laid eyes on! And were they ever drenched! Needless to
say I invited them in and...

My take on the half-elf situation, however, is that elves aren't that noble.
Oh, it's a nice interpretation, and I appreciate your use of it as the basis of
the moral system in your campaign, but to me just the existence of the Gheallie
Sidhe proves that elves aren't so nice. (Not that I want to start up that rant
again!!!) Because they tend to be chaotic neutral they are just as likely to
be naughty as nice, so taking advantage of a human female or two is probably
not that big a deal to them.

Imagine yourself an elven fighter/mage. You've been married to the same woman
for a thousand years. Things are getting... well, a little dull. One
afternoon just to get away from her nagging (like it's THAT important to pick
your dirty tights up off the bedroom floor!) you go out for a ride on your
trusty stallion. At least HE understands you. You're warhorse never asks why
you don't take him out anywhere. He never complains about the hay in his stall
or the fact that you don't introduce him to your friends. No, he's just happy
to go for a ride!

So you're riding along when suddenly you spy a human female gathering
berries.... As the Imperial Grand Wizard of the your local cel of the Gheallie
Sidhe, you really ought to kill her and stick her head on a pole as a warning
to all other humans who might think of trespassing on elven lands, but... she's
kinda cute. Nice legs. One of those filmy white, billowy peasant dresses....
Pretty hot... you know, for a human.

She's also ridiculously easy to Charm. Humans are incredibly vulnerable to the
spell that forms the centerpoint of elven magic, especially in comparison to
the elven 90% resistance to it. That spell alone is what makes it so easy for
elves to kiss the girls and make them cry. According to my estimates, about
one in fifty elves is a mage, and all of those guys and gals would have access
to the Charm Person spell. Taking a cue from their sylvan friends, the dryads,
why wouldn't an elf use that spell in the same way? Seduction could easily
happen through the normal dating process, or by chasing a gal through the woods
a la Apollo and Daphne, but the casting time of a Charm Person spell is 1
segment. Six seconds to irresistibility? Who could resist that? It makes
Viagra look like an aspirin.

In short, I think elves would be the driving force behind interracial
children. In the real world human females often created whole myths to explain
such pregnancies. Many were kidnapped by faeries and such. Such an
explanation would be much more plausible in a world where elves actually exist,
so the social implications would probably not be as unpleasant as in the real
world.

Happy camping!
Gary

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Kenneth Gauck wrote:

> In my dwarven campaign I associated the various noble Houses with stones
> reputed to have special properties. Elves might likewise choose to surround

I've thought a little about doing something like this, but never had PC
dwarves and so the necessity never struck (although I did create an NPC
called Rosestone whose family "crest" was Rose Quartz). Any possibility we
could entice you to share your secrets with us?

> themselves with personal elemental signs, or Houses might be associated with
> a sign. Gylvain might be known for its great fountains, its settlements
> near flowing water (esp waterfalls), and the importance of water in the home
> (the family might be offended if someone suggested opening a window or
> lighting a fire before someone had filled the table's water pitcher first),
> springs could be regarded as sacred (perhaps with benifits). Caolran might
> be noted for its appeciation of fire. I can imagine some homes have a great
> hearth which dominates the room. Or houses with a hundred candles.

Excellent ideas. I've been kicking around the idea of detailing the
"astrology of Cerilia" for awhile (partly as part of the "Imperial
Observatory" in the BR Online City Project) but have yet to have any real
inspiration good enough to spend the time developing. Perhaps this will
get me started.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:



> My take on the half-elf situation, however, is that elves aren't that noble.
> Oh, it's a nice interpretation, and I appreciate your use of it as the basis of
> the moral system in your campaign, but to me just the existence of the Gheallie
> Sidhe proves that elves aren't so nice. (Not that I want to start up that rant
> again!!!) Because they tend to be chaotic neutral they are just as likely to
> be naughty as nice, so taking advantage of a human female or two is probably
> not that big a deal to them.

Oh God, I NEVER make elves NICE. But there's a world of difference between
good and nice. (In the words of the Witch from "Into the Woods": "You're
so nice/You're not good, you're not bad, you're just nice.") Some elves
are good, and deal with humans as individuals, juding each one
individually, but fully realizing that many are going to be right bastards
who would just as soon do you in a look at you. Others are evil, and lump
all humans into the stereotype "racial enemy" and hold that the only good
human is a dead human. The best of elves in human lands is suspicious,
cautious to the point of paranoia, always concerned with looking out for
his own interests, very careful about getting into a position of
indebtedness to a human (even if it is only in giving advise) because they
are in a land that is quite hostile to them. They have to look out for
their own interests, because no one else is going to look out for them.
They realize how rapidly gifts given to humans can turn into resentment
and even into vengence. The worst of the elves sees only a terrible
sickness that must be trimmed from the land whereever possible. That part
of the reason why I don't think the G.S. goes much in for rapine. They
just don't see humans as individuals, just as human don't see goblins as
individuals ("ok, I'll go after goblin #3 now"). Humans are "What is wrong
with the world" and I don't think most members of the G.S. think about
human women much longer than it takes to kill them. I think most of them
would see dalliance with a human as below them, soiling them. However,
even the G.S. is "noble" in a sense, but "nobility" can be a double-edged
sword, it can allow the continuance of social injustice and turn a deaf
ear to the suffering. The G.S. follows rules, it follows protocol, it is
just that those rules aren't those of war with equals, they are the rules
of a hunt (remember, the G.S. is the "Hunt of the Elves) for a lesser
species. You don't show mercy to your prey when you're hunting; you kill
it. You don't toy with it, you don't intentially torment it, you just kill
it. And then you go home.

> In short, I think elves would be the driving force behind interracial
> children. In the real world human females often created whole myths to explain
> such pregnancies. Many were kidnapped by faeries and such. Such an
> explanation would be much more plausible in a world where elves actually exist,
> so the social implications would probably not be as unpleasant as in the real
> world.

I don't have any problems with your view on this, and it certainly makes
sense when viewed from a different perspective than my own. However, I
happen to like my own perspective (it's the result of lots of work,
dammit! :) ), so I think I'll stick with it. Am I alone on this? I could
easily just be in my own little headspace here, in which case I'll move on
to a different topic.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Gary V. Foss]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> I don't have any problems with your view on this, and it certainly makes
> sense when viewed from a different perspective than my own. However, I
> happen to like my own perspective (it's the result of lots of work,
> dammit! :) ), so I think I'll stick with it. Am I alone on this? I could
> easily just be in my own little headspace here, in which case I'll move on
> to a different topic.

Hey, if it works for you thematically, then I'm all for it. It's all about theme to
me. The thing that attracted me to BR originally is that it seemed like it was a
much better interpretation of the AD&D rules that allowed for titanic stuggles
between the powers of good and evil. It gave the setting more heart and soul than
and of the other campaign settings out there which will remain
nameless....

The backstory of BR with the battle of the gods does areally good job of setting up
that struggle. Having a thematic concept in mind, like your use of elven morality,
as the basis of a long term goal for the PCs gives a point to the campaign and gives
the players something to strive for, even if they don't realize that they are
striving for it at the time.

Gary

[Tim Nutting]

Interesting stuff, Mark.

I started one reply, then it became something else (see Sidhelien Culture
thread). :)

On the nature of elven reproduction and your theories, I find them very
interesting. I would also be inclined to believe that for beings of magic,
some magic would have to be involved in reproduction.

In one book series I read, there were three planes, the Upper, Middle, and
Lower. Creatures could walk the ways in between them, if carefully, but they
could only reproduce amongst themselves when they were on their home planes.
So elves on the home of Mithgar in the Middle Plane, could only have children
is they went to the Upper Plane.

Another thing to consider is that the elves may just be incredibly infertile.
Perhaps it takes the absolute desire of both participants to create a child.
Geez, being immune to all natural disease and having that as an advantage would
certainly bring Free Love to the humans, eh?

As far as why there are so many half-elves?

Well, according to the PHB, an Elf is a person who's lineage is pure elven. As
soon as human blood is introduced to the species, the only offspring possible
ever after is half-elven or human. A Half-Elf has more elven ancestors than
human ones, and vice versa for a half elf. I don't know how much water that
holds on Cerilia, but for simplicity if counting ancestors was important, I'd
only go back 5 generations.

Perhaps the answer is that the half-elven race is breeding true...

Tim Nutting

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 11-01-1998 3:32:28 PM Central Standard Time,
GeeMan@linkline.com writes:

> In short, I think elves would be the driving force behind interracial
> children. In the real world human females often created whole myths to
> explain
> such pregnancies. Many were kidnapped by faeries and such. Such an
> explanation would be much more plausible in a world where elves actually
> exist,
> so the social implications would probably not be as unpleasant as in the
> real
> world.
>
In the words of Gheallie Sidhe General Sidhebhar, "By the Thorn Throne, there
too many of the vermin to drive them into the sea. If we can't weed them out,
we'll breed them out! Mwah hahahahaaaaa!"

(General Sidhebhar appears to have retired his post. Last seen running from a
bunch of angry male peasants with his pants caught around his ankles.)

- -DKE

[Gary V. Foss]

Tim Nutting wrote:

> As far as why there are so many half-elves?
>
> Well, according to the PHB, an Elf is a person who's lineage is pure elven. As
> soon as human blood is introduced to the species, the only offspring possible
> ever after is half-elven or human. A Half-Elf has more elven ancestors than
> human ones, and vice versa for a half elf. I don't know how much water that
> holds on Cerilia, but for simplicity if counting ancestors was important, I'd
> only go back 5 generations.
>
> Perhaps the answer is that the half-elven race is breeding true...

I've always disagreed with this description of half-elves lineage. It doesn't make
sense to me that two races who can interbreed would be so drastically influence by
the "drop of human blood" that the rules seem to say make one a half-elf. Aside
from the spectacle of racial issues--individuals with slightly more human than
elven ancestors "passing" for human--it just doesn't seem to make sense to me.

In my non-BR campaign, in which technology is on the wane and magic is rising up in
its stead, there are four more "races" of half-elves. Elf-touched, 1/4, 3/4 and
human-touched. Elf touched humans have a bit of elven blood in them and only a few
powers.

Actually, the basis for the campaign and the explanation for elven blood is that
magic has begun "infecting" an earth-like planet with 20th century technology and
begun "corrupting" technology. (Actually it is Earth, but the players are going to
have to find that out in a future Planet of the Apes type revelation....)
Technical items have failed as the natural laws of magic and technology transpose.
The magical influence effects humans and animals also, changing them into
demi-humans or fantastic monsters. This makes for some cool role-playing
opportunities as it puts humans in the same position that BR elves are in and most
other AD&D settings. They are a species on the wane, fighting off the growing
numbers of non-humans who push them back year after year. The funny bit is that
because of the way magic is spread and because of their technological background
humans equate magic with radiation and the more fanatical ones refer to all
demi-humans as "mutants." It also has recently led to the spectacle of a dogfight
between a dragon and two F-16s with the PCs in the driver's seat. Now THAT was
fun....

Anyway, the point in all this (I apologize for discussing my non-BR campaign so
much, but that adventure is still fresh in my mind and it really rocked!) is that I
think there should be more than one type of half-elf. Maybe not four, the way I
have in my campaign, but I think there should be at least one step in between
human, half and full elven. The Skills and Powers text has some informaton on
"elven blood" for humans in it, which is a good starting point.

Gary

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

Actually most likely the majority of the half-elven come from elven to half-
elven marriages. Since you only need some human blood to make you half-elven.
This would account for certain transgressions to progress, suchas love between
elven and human or perhaps rapes : ( then any children resulting and any
children's children, and so on and so forth could be half-elven. And since
the half-elven tend to wander they adventure forth and go into human realms.
And one of these 2/3 elven blood halfbreeds meets a nice human women and
settles down. Theycould produce half-elven.

Also to add to the low birth rate maybe the elven women ovulate at intervals
longer then month to month.

Just a few ruminations

Jules

[Tim Nutting]

Mmm... Well, if you want that many races it is, after all, your game. ;)

I know it isn't scientific in the least, but then, niether is the ability to
see by the light of the stars alone, and still have good day vision. Elves are
magical, and magic, while it is its own science, is not Science, being
genetics, biology, or what have you.

The "drop of blood" IS a simplification that I prefer, mostly because I prefer
playability and the illusion of complexity, over the actuality of complexity.
I had enough Rolemaster with their 50+ character classes and over 20 different
races.

I know it's not a BR subject... but curiosity killed the DM's game... just how
does an AIM-7M manage to lock a dragon? :)

Tim

[Daniel McSorley]

From: Tim Nutting
>I know it's not a BR subject... but curiosity killed the DM's game... just
how
>does an AIM-7M manage to lock a dragon? :)
>
I'd say a Sidewinder would be a better bet, those are the heat seeking
ones I think...

Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

[Gary V. Foss]

Tim Nutting wrote:

> Mmm... Well, if you want that many races it is, after all, your game. ;)
>
> I know it isn't scientific in the least, but then, niether is the ability to
> see by the light of the stars alone, and still have good day vision. Elves are
> magical, and magic, while it is its own science, is not Science, being
> genetics, biology, or what have you.
>
> The "drop of blood" IS a simplification that I prefer, mostly because I prefer
> playability and the illusion of complexity, over the actuality of complexity.
> I had enough Rolemaster with their 50+ character classes and over 20 different
> races.

It hasn't proven too complicated so far, Tim. I've got very simple descriptions of
race that give them set abilities, and I've limited those abilities quite a bit
kind of like how BR elves don't have the +1 with long sword and bow that other AD&D
elves do. In my experience the thing that complicates things are having weird
character classes and kits, using the Skills and Powers text and things like that.
Skills and Powers.... gives me the willies just thinking about keeping all that
stuff down on paper.

As for science: I'm not terribly interested in science. I'm not a scientist
personally. I have only a casual interest in science. Well, maybe more than
casual, but I'm much more interested in playability than in scientific
explanations.

> I know it's not a BR subject... but curiosity killed the DM's game... just how
> does an AIM-7M manage to lock a dragon? :)

Heh, heh. Actually the F-16s that the PCs used didn't work when they were first
found. The physical laws that allow basic electronics--let alone sophisticated
computer chips--to exist in most areas of the campaign setting having long ago been
replaced by magic oriented physical laws. The "technological" physical laws only
exist in a few areas, which are bastions of humanity against the influx of
demi-humans, much the way elves are stuck in the forests in BR. Ironically,
technology can also be recreated with powerful spells. (There is a 8th level spell
that will recreate the pre-cataclysm technological laws for a brief time, but the
PCs are far too low level to have access to it.)

The PCs had to adventure in order to find magical equivalents to power the
fighters. These things were all one-shot items because I didn't want them having
access to F-16s later in the campaign for obvious reasons. It took two gaming
sessions for them to find items to power the planes (they flew much more slowly
than real F-16s) and weapons. There are four PCs in the party, and I made the
fighters two-seat trainer types so all of them got into the planes and went after
the dragon firing wands and crossbows through holes they punched in the canopy.

The funniest line: After the adventure one player said to another "Hey, you! You
can be my wingman anytime!" I thought I'd choke.

I'm tellin' you man, it was great fun. One of these days I'll figure out how to
put up a website and I'll put all the information for the whole campaign setting on
there. The really fun thing about the campaign is that because it is an alternate
Earth I can comment on things in my own life. Hollywood has become The Hallowed
Wood and I have cast several of the more obnoxious studio execs and TV producers
that I've had to deal with as loathesome beasts in that forest.... Los Angeles has
become the Desert of Lost Souls. I am, of course, the benevolent king Garreth who
often is the source of the PCs adventures. I've also cast the players in the game
too, though they don't know it yet.... I'm almost dreading that realization!

Laters,
Gary

[Pieter Sleijpen]

I have read a story where the conflict between the Side (sp?) and humans
was central. The elves had magic, but during the war with the humans
they had lost their soul. During the war the humans had lost their
magic. In the end the only way to really solve the problem and bring
lasting peace was by interracial breeding.

As for human friendly elven nations, I would say Rhuamach is the most
human friendly nation. They allow humans to live in their lands and in
return the humans form the first line of defence against the gnolls to
the south (who drove the humans out of their land in the first place). I
like your idea of birth control.

[HSteiner1@aol.co]

In einer eMail vom 01.11.98 21:21:05, schreiben Sie:

>

Good Idea. You should shower more often ;-)
This leads to some interesting applications in play... ;-)

But you don´t answered the fundamental question: Why should noble elves
(IMC we use this description of elven culture too) sleep with ugly,
shortlived human women?
IMC, there are only a few half-elves, but, because of their mixed heritage,
they
get far more famous than their mundane, full-human counterparts, explaining
the number of famous half-elves in the books.





######################################
Holger Steiner
Programmer & Object-Technology Consultant
h.steiner@host-it.de
http://www.host-it.de
Only the code gets executed, not the intentions...
######################################

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 11-03-1998 5:12:49 AM Central Standard Time,
HSteiner1@aol.com writes:

> But you don´t answered the fundamental question: Why should noble elves
> (IMC we use this description of elven culture too) sleep with ugly,
> shortlived human women?
> IMC, there are only a few half-elves, but, because of their mixed heritage,
> they
> get far more famous than their mundane, full-human counterparts, explaining
> the number of famous half-elves in the books.
>

Why could not some elves see the beauty in all living things? Mundane? What
is "mundane" in nature to an Elven Ranger? If a CG Elf witnessed a human
being living (or trying to live) in harmony with nature, could this elf not be
smitten with the sad beauty of it? "Awwwww, looook isn't that cuuuuute? A
human trying to live in _harmony_ with nature. Silly things, yet her soul is
in the right place and she's trying _so_ hard..."

I grossed myself out. Never mind.
DKE

[Tim Nutting]

Sure the "average" human is ugly by elven standards, and they've certainly got
high standards, but the parents of half elves are humans of extraordinary grace
and beauty according to the racial description. To me that implies that the
elves settle for nothing less than a CHA/App of prolly 14.

Tim

[Gary V. Foss]

Tim Nutting wrote:

> Sure the "average" human is ugly by elven standards, and they've certainly got
> high standards, but the parents of half elves are humans of extraordinary grace
> and beauty according to the racial description. To me that implies that the
> elves settle for nothing less than a CHA/App of prolly 14.

I don't think elves would really find humans all that repulsive physically. The
features of humans and elves are much more alike than they are different when
compared to goblins, orogs or even dwarves and halflings. Having rounded ears
rather than pointy ones wouldn't be THAT hard to deal with. I'm not saying elves
would have the "anything goes" esthetics of Capt. Kirk (who seemed to find anything
with a heartbeat erotic) but making nook-nook with a human would probably only
repulse those with race based prejudices strong enough to overcome the urge to
merge and that's pretty serious prejudice even for BR elves.

Gary

[Lee]

In a message dated 98-11-03 20:36:39 EST, you write:

[Tim Nutting]

> And this would explain human enmity towards elves in the first place:
> they're taking all the pretty ones! Grr!
>
> Lee.

ROFL

I quoth the Man in the Shades:
//in deep, smoke-scratchy, testosterone laden voice//
"NOBODY STEALS OUR CHICKS--AND LIVES!!!"


Cripes, you believe that someone is grooming Howie Long for the role of Duke
Nukem in a movie!?

Amazed & Amused
Tim

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:

> I don't think elves would really find humans all that repulsive
physically. The
> features of humans and elves are much more alike than they are
different when
> compared to goblins, orogs or even dwarves and halflings. Having
rounded ears
> rather than pointy ones wouldn't be THAT hard to deal with. I'm not
saying elves
> would have the "anything goes" esthetics of Capt. Kirk (who seemed to
find anything
> with a heartbeat erotic) but making nook-nook with a human would
probably only
> repulse those with race based prejudices strong enough to overcome the
urge to
> merge and that's pretty serious prejudice even for BR elves.

Hey Gary, how many kids do you have?

How powerful a force is "urge to merge?" Sure it can make us do some
pretty wacko things, but I think it only really makes people who are
already pretty sick want to go out and find someone to "nook-nook."
Combine that with the fact that very few elves ever leave their native
homelands to the extent that could possibility interact, much less "fall
in love/lust with" a human, and I don't think that your argument really
explains as much of the half-elf problem as you think.

Even the swingingest 70's kind of guy was still pretty cautious about the
outcome of procreation, if not its mechanics. And most people tend to get
married when they feel like reproducing (or at least they did
historically). Once you start talking about functions that are small
percentages of other functions which are small percentages of still other
functions, your explanatory power drops precipitously.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Gary V. Foss]

[[Parental Advisory Warning: Not for Children under the age of 18.]]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> Hey Gary, how many kids do you have?

I have eleven children.... Joke! I'm joking!

I've managed to dodge that particular bullet, actually. Maybe someday when a
bunch of goblins running around sounds tolerable I'll go in for it, but not for
many years to come.... I try to avoid women who want to nest in the immediate
future, because I want a few more years of non-parenthood.

> How powerful a force is "urge to merge?"

For God's sake, man, your a biologist!

> Sure it can make us do some
> pretty wacko things, but I think it only really makes people who are
> already pretty sick want to go out and find someone to "nook-nook."

Hey, I like nook-nook! I go out looking for nook-nook on a regular basis! I
grant you not as much as when I was a younger man, but I still look for
nook-nook at least as much as I play fantasy games.... That might very well be
sick, but don't go disparaging nook-nook, pal! :D

I'd much rather nook-nook than play RPGs. If Hefner invited me over to his
place and I found out he had a room in The Mansion dedicated to RPGs with every
imaginable book and accessory in it and the entire staff of WotWC/TSR was there
conducting games and discussing the hobby I'd spend about 10 seconds in there.
Just long enough to ascertain that no one was having nook-nook. Then I'd make
a bee-line for the volleyball court. Miss April can really spike that
ball....

> Combine that with the fact that very few elves ever leave their native
> homelands to the extent that could possibility interact, much less "fall
> in love/lust with" a human, and I don't think that your argument really
> explains as much of the half-elf problem as you think.

To quote Tina: What's love got to do with it? Heh.

Humans are just as unlikely to run into elves as elves are to run into humans
aren't they? Given the way those encounters probably occur, I just think elves
would be more likely to be the peckers rather than the peckees in that mating
dance.

> Even the swingingest 70's kind of guy was still pretty cautious about the
> outcome of procreation, if not its mechanics. And most people tend to get
> married when they feel like reproducing (or at least they did
> historically). Once you start talking about functions that are small
> percentages of other functions which are small percentages of still other
> functions, your explanatory power drops precipitously.

Marriage? Oh, man.... Go ahead and take the fantasy out of fantasy gaming why
don't you.... :)

The point I was trying to make was that I don't think elves would be repulsed
by humans' appearance. Elven and human esthetics aren't really all that far
apart from what I can tell. There are certainly cultural differences, but
handsome/pretty seems to be close to the same thing for both races.

Given the relative fertility of the species as described in your elemental
birth control issue and the way most people seem to think elves don't reproduce
as often as humans, wouldn't that mean elven males are more likely to parent
half-elves than male humans? Half-elves mating with full elves is another
possibility, but don't we run into the same relative fertility issue again?
The bunny-like metabolism of human females combined with their relative ease to
seduce (read: Charm) just seems to make them more likely candidates for both La
Forbidden Dance and the little bundles of joy that often arrive nine months
later....

Gary

[Spyderz]

>Even the swingingest 70's kind of guy was still pretty cautious about the
>outcome of procreation, if not its mechanics. And most people tend to get
>married when they feel like reproducing (or at least they did
>historically)

You may be right about 70s guys...but in a medievel setting...if comparable
to our world... people weren't nearly so cautious about procreation...and
historically I think it would be more accurate to say that people tended to
get married because of procreation...the opposing view is a puritanical on
that was brought to this country by people who had the lovely courting beds
with a board down the middle so you could sleep together without having
sex...ignoring the logic that you could have sex just fine if you did it on
one side of the bed...or not even on the bed...

Just my 2 pence worth

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Wed, 4 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:

> > How powerful a force is "urge to merge?"
>
> For God's sake, man, your a biologist!

Exactly, and as a biologist, I am perfectly aware that all animals, when
given the choice of an immediate opportunity to reproduce, but with a high
risk of mortality, will play it safe. They will avoid the risk. And I'm
saying that I think the situation is similar: the situation for lone elves
in human lands is about the same for lone humans in elven lands: pretty
risky. I imagine that most of the contact between the two races is in
fairly controlled conditions, either as semi-official state occasions with
ambassadors, or mixed elf-and-human adventuring groups. Both of which, it
would seem to me, would minimize (although certainly not negate) the
possibility where 1.) a chance meeting between individuals who are
attracted to each other 2.) can reasonably get together and alone for
sufficient time for reproduction to occur.

> > Sure it can make us do some
> > pretty wacko things, but I think it only really makes people who are
> > already pretty sick want to go out and find someone to "nook-nook."
>
> Hey, I like nook-nook! I go out looking for nook-nook on a regular basis! I
> grant you not as much as when I was a younger man, but I still look for
> nook-nook at least as much as I play fantasy games.... That might very well be
> sick, but don't go disparaging nook-nook, pal! :D
>
> I'd much rather nook-nook than play RPGs. If Hefner invited me over to his
> place and I found out he had a room in The Mansion dedicated to RPGs with every
> imaginable book and accessory in it and the entire staff of WotWC/TSR was there
> conducting games and discussing the hobby I'd spend about 10 seconds in there.
> Just long enough to ascertain that no one was having nook-nook. Then I'd make
> a bee-line for the volleyball court. Miss April can really spike that
> ball....

There's nothing wrong with nook-nook. I'm quite fond of it myself. But
what if the Hef had about two dozen armed bodyguards who had a repuation
for shooting first and asking questions later. Would you still crash his
party?

> Humans are just as unlikely to run into elves as elves are to run into humans
> aren't they? Given the way those encounters probably occur, I just think elves
> would be more likely to be the peckers rather than the peckees in that mating
> dance.

Not when you consider the fact that many elven borders are "closed" to
humans, but most human borders are not closed to elves. Humans often have
to run a gauntlet like the thorny hedge/reflecting border around the
Sielwode, not to mention avoid the G.S., but there are no (or few) such
magical barriers around human lands. Plus, wierd things with time are
legendary within elven forests, which also serves as a deterence to humans
entering the elven woods.

> The point I was trying to make was that I don't think elves would be repulsed
> by humans' appearance. Elven and human esthetics aren't really all that far
> apart from what I can tell. There are certainly cultural differences, but
> handsome/pretty seems to be close to the same thing for both races.

Well I agree with you there. I don't think that they are that different
aesthetically. I just think there there are sufficient risks involved that
actually getting down to consumation (how many euphamisms can we use?) is
probably going to be pretty rare, and only under fairly unusual
circumstances.

> Given the relative fertility of the species as described in your elemental
> birth control issue and the way most people seem to think elves don't reproduce
> as often as humans, wouldn't that mean elven males are more likely to parent
> half-elves than male humans? Half-elves mating with full elves is another
> possibility, but don't we run into the same relative fertility issue again?
> The bunny-like metabolism of human females combined with their relative ease to
> seduce (read: Charm) just seems to make them more likely candidates for both La
> Forbidden Dance and the little bundles of joy that often arrive nine months
> later....

If you were a wizard, would you use a Charm spell to seduce a woman?
Would you ever use the "date-rape drug" to seduce a woman?
What is the difference?

Well, I'm not saying that your arguments don't have weight, in particular
your comment on males elves being more likely to have offspring with human
females. However, I do think elves are noble enough that when they do
decide to go seducing, they consider use of Charm spells cheating, and
that anyway are MUCH more likely to go seducing elven females than 1.)
going a great distance out of their way into human lands, 2.) risking life
and limb from potential human mobs when travelling w/o a protective but
inhibiting entourage.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Gary V. Foss]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> > Humans are just as unlikely to run into elves as elves are to run into humans
> > aren't they? Given the way those encounters probably occur, I just think elves
> > would be more likely to be the peckers rather than the peckees in that mating
> > dance.
>
> Not when you consider the fact that many elven borders are "closed" to
> humans, but most human borders are not closed to elves. Humans often have
> to run a gauntlet like the thorny hedge/reflecting border around the
> Sielwode, not to mention avoid the G.S., but there are no (or few) such
> magical barriers around human lands. Plus, wierd things with time are
> legendary within elven forests, which also serves as a deterence to humans
> entering the elven woods.

Well, either humans come into elven lands or elves go into human lands. I am under
the impression that it is more often the former from descriptions in the published
materials. Elven forays into human lands seem to be mostly GS attacks--which have
pretty limited opportunities for breeding unless the elves are behaving in the most
repugnant manner--and trade which seems to be often led by half-elves. When a
half-elf mates with a human you get a human offspring according to the rules, so I
don't think that would increase the number of half-elves running around.

> > The bunny-like metabolism of human females combined with their relative ease to
> > seduce (read: Charm) just seems to make them more likely candidates for both La
> > Forbidden Dance and the little bundles of joy that often arrive nine months
> > later....
>
> If you were a wizard, would you use a Charm spell to seduce a woman?
> Would you ever use the "date-rape drug" to seduce a woman?
> What is the difference?

Before I dive into this elven date rape topic let me say a few things:

1. Ew!

2. I'd like to assure the CIA guys who monitor our email that I would NEVER commit
any act violating another person's civil rights or do anything in any way illegal!

3. If I were a wizard with access to the Charm Person spell you sure as hell would
not be reading this. I'd have much better things to do with my time than talk about
using Charm Person spells. I'd be out casting Charm Person spells.... But more on
that later.

That said, using a Charm Person spell to seduce women is certainly an immoral thing
to do, but I'd suggest it is not exactly like using a date-rape drug. That's more
like using a Sleep spell. (Again: ew!) I grant you that the actual ethical
difference is pretty slim, but a chaotic neutral character would justify that a lot
easier. Especially, I think, an elf. Elves have a much more magical outlook than
humans. They are magical by nature. Casting a Charm Person spell on a human might
not be considered that outrageous a thing to do in elven society, especially with
dryads--very nature oriented creatures--doing the same thing.

In many elven lands humans are killed outright. Well, they are killed or they
"disappear" when travelling through elven territory. This Charm Person scenario is a
kinder way of dealing with humans than slaughtering them, and also is a pretty good
explanation for what happens to mortals that vanish without a trace in elf territory.

> > I'd much rather nook-nook than play RPGs. If Hefner invited me over to his
> > place and I found out he had a room in The Mansion dedicated to RPGs with every
> > imaginable book and accessory in it and the entire staff of WotWC/TSR was there
> > conducting games and discussing the hobby I'd spend about 10 seconds in there.
> > Just long enough to ascertain that no one was having nook-nook. Then I'd make
> > a bee-line for the volleyball court. Miss April can really spike that
> > ball....
>
> There's nothing wrong with nook-nook. I'm quite fond of it myself. But
> what if the Hef had about two dozen armed bodyguards who had a repuation
> for shooting first and asking questions later. Would you still crash his
> party?

Hmmm. Two dozen bodyguards between me and Miss April.... I don't know, man. I
think I'd still have to take a shot at that volleyball court.

As for using Charm Person spells to seduce someone; I have far too much respect for
models/aspiring actresses whose "Turn Ons" are puppies, candlelit dinners and walks
on the beach to ever do something to violate her civil rights.

The bodyguards, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother story.... I'd cast spells on
those guys in a New York second.

"Say, Vinnie, why don't you and the rest of the guys go check out Hef's RPG room? I
think I saw a red dragon in there...."

"But we'z supposed to keep an eye on the goils playing volleyball..."

"That's alright... *I'll* keep an eye on the girls for a while."

"Uh, OK."

"And while you're in there I want you to smack around the Wizards/TSR guys until they
promise to start releasing all new Birthright products."

"OK. Yoose is the boss...."

"Have fun! See you later! Don't worry about the girls, I'll keep a real good eye on
them.... Helloooooo, Miss April!"

Gary

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:

> Well, either humans come into elven lands or elves go into human lands.
I am under
> the impression that it is more often the former from descriptions in
the published
> materials. Elven forays into human lands seem to be mostly GS
attacks--which have
> pretty limited opportunities for breeding unless the elves are behaving
in the most
> repugnant manner--and trade which seems to be often led by half-elves.
When a
> half-elf mates with a human you get a human offspring according to the
rules, so I
> don't think that would increase the number of half-elves running around.

Well, that wasn't the impression I got at all. Most of the descriptions of
elven realms go into great detail about how difficult it is for humans to
safely travel into and through elven lands, and I was under the impression
that they were fairly successful. But on the other hand, I supose human
obstinancy being what it is, that could just make it more likely for
humans to try to go there (in biology we call this a "sink
habitat"--organisms can be found there, they are just never able to
survive and reproduce there).

Also, being chaotic, I assume that elves get wanderlust at least as often
as humans do, and since there are no magical wards around human lands,
they can get into them far easier. Perhaps this could be due to residual
Tolkien-bias, with his elves wandering through the general countryside
even though no one ever knows that they are there.

> That said, using a Charm Person spell to seduce women is certainly an
immoral thing
> to do, but I'd suggest it is not exactly like using a date-rape drug.
That's more
> like using a Sleep spell. (Again: ew!) I grant you that the actual
ethical
> difference is pretty slim, but a chaotic neutral character would
justify that a lot
> easier. Especially, I think, an elf. Elves have a much more magical
outlook than
> humans. They are magical by nature. Casting a Charm Person spell on a
human might
> not be considered that outrageous a thing to do in elven society,
especially with
> dryads--very nature oriented creatures--doing the same thing.

OK, so once again, it comes down to fundamental differences in they way
the two of us view elven culture. Thats cool. I view them as noble but
with standards on a very personal level, so neutral but chaotic, while you
view them as chaotic but, er, well, chaotic.

(and yes, that was purposely inciteful)

> In many elven lands humans are killed outright. Well, they are killed
or they
> "disappear" when travelling through elven territory. This Charm Person
scenario is a
> kinder way of dealing with humans than slaughtering them, and also is a
pretty good
> explanation for what happens to mortals that vanish without a trace in
elf territory.

For me, those who disappear are just dead. I've never set a game
particularly close to an elven realm, so I've never had to deal with it
personally, but I suspect that if any PC's were ever to try to enter an
elven kingdon w/o permission or w/o an elven escort, I would probably make
them roll to see whether they ran into the G.S. or a member of a more
moderate patrol. If they ran into the G.S. they would be hunted w/o mercy,
while if they ran into the regular patrol, they would be arrested,
divested of all items, weapons and armour, taken to the capital where they
would be tried in court against a G.S. prosecutor, where they would have
to argue their case very well and eloquently in order to avoid becoming
daisy fertilizer (and it would be even harder if they ran into the G.S.
first and survived).

> > There's nothing wrong with nook-nook. I'm quite fond of it myself. But
> > what if the Hef had about two dozen armed bodyguards who had a repuation
> > for shooting first and asking questions later. Would you still crash his
> > party?
>
> Hmmm. Two dozen bodyguards between me and Miss April.... I don't
know, man. I
> think I'd still have to take a shot at that volleyball court.

Well, you're a braver man than I. Or more desperate. :)

> As for using Charm Person spells to seduce someone; I have far too much
respect for
> models/aspiring actresses whose "Turn Ons" are puppies, candlelit
dinners and walks
> on the beach to ever do something to violate her civil rights.

To borrow a phrase: Ew!

> The bodyguards, on the other hand, is a whole 'nother story.... I'd
cast spells on
> those guys in a New York second.

Well, granted. It almost goes without saying...

Mark

[Olesens]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
> > Well, either humans come into elven lands or elves go into human lands.
> I am under
> > the impression that it is more often the former from descriptions in
> the published
> > materials. Elven forays into human lands seem to be mostly GS
> attacks--which have
> > pretty limited opportunities for breeding unless the elves are behaving
> in the most
> > repugnant manner--and trade which seems to be often led by half-elves.
> When a
> > half-elf mates with a human you get a human offspring according to the
> rules, so I
> > don't think that would increase the number of half-elves running around.

I think the makers of BR kinda boxed themselves in here. They wanted GS and
anti-human elven realms but liked half elves alot too. I dunno, just my
feelings.

[Gary V. Foss]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> OK, so once again, it comes down to fundamental differences in they way
> the two of us view elven culture. Thats cool. I view them as noble but
> with standards on a very personal level, so neutral but chaotic, while you
> view them as chaotic but, er, well, chaotic.

Well, I actually leave this up to the individual situation for the most part. I
do rule that most elves are chaotic neutral in alignment in my campaign, but
that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of chaotic good ones who would look down
on someone who would use Charm Person spells as a method of seducing humans, or
chaotic evil ones who would rather just kill them.

I tend to view the GS as being more neutral evil (like Rhoubhe who seems to be
the most zealous of the GS leaders) than chaotic neutral.

> Well, you're a braver man than I. Or more desperate. :)

There's a difference?

Gary

[Gary V. Foss]

Olesens wrote:

> I think the makers of BR kinda boxed themselves in here. They wanted GS and
> anti-human elven realms but liked half elves alot too. I dunno, just my
> feelings.

It's also possible that there are just a couple of more liberal elven lands
(Tuarhieval is a pretty good possibility) who tend to blend a little more
frequently than others creating more than their share of half-elves. I'm afraid
I'm not up on the attitudes of all the elven nations, so it's kind of hard to
guess which ones would spawn more half-elves than others, though Sielwode seems
pretty unlikely. Coullabhie wouldn't either except for their relationship with
Treucht which is pretty cordial.... Those are the only ones I can think of off
the top of my head.

Gary

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Rhuanach in the Khinasi lands has got actully humans living in their
southern provinces. They have sworn fealthy to the queen, so the elves
leave them alone. In return the humans do almost all the fighting
against the gnolls to the south in former Djira. I think this elven
realm has got the best relations with humans of all the nations on
Cerilia.

Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
> Olesens wrote:
>
> > I think the makers of BR kinda boxed themselves in here. They wanted GS and
> > anti-human elven realms but liked half elves alot too. I dunno, just my
> > feelings.
>
> It's also possible that there are just a couple of more liberal elven lands
> (Tuarhieval is a pretty good possibility) who tend to blend a little more
> frequently than others creating more than their share of half-elves. I'm afraid
> I'm not up on the attitudes of all the elven nations, so it's kind of hard to
> guess which ones would spawn more half-elves than others, though Sielwode seems
> pretty unlikely. Coullabhie wouldn't either except for their relationship with
> Treucht which is pretty cordial.... Those are the only ones I can think of off
> the top of my head.
>
> Gary
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[Gary V. Foss]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:

> > In many elven lands humans are killed outright. Well, they are killed
> or they
> > "disappear" when travelling through elven territory. This Charm Person
> scenario is a
> > kinder way of dealing with humans than slaughtering them, and also is a
> pretty good
> > explanation for what happens to mortals that vanish without a trace in
> elf territory.
>
> For me, those who disappear are just dead. I've never set a game
> particularly close to an elven realm, so I've never had to deal with it
> personally, but I suspect that if any PC's were ever to try to enter an
> elven kingdon w/o permission or w/o an elven escort, I would probably make
> them roll to see whether they ran into the G.S. or a member of a more
> moderate patrol. If they ran into the G.S. they would be hunted w/o mercy,
> while if they ran into the regular patrol, they would be arrested,
> divested of all items, weapons and armour, taken to the capital where they
> would be tried in court against a G.S. prosecutor, where they would have
> to argue their case very well and eloquently in order to avoid becoming
> daisy fertilizer (and it would be even harder if they ran into the G.S.
> first and survived).

Here's a weird thought regarding what might happen to humans who disappear in
elven lands....

Polymorph Other is a 4th level spell, which means it would only take a 7th level
or higher mage to cast it. My guess is that a nation like Coullabhie would have
between 100,000 and 110,000 elves living in it. The population numbers I've
used lead me to believe there would be around 2,000 mages in such a nation.
There would be about 31+ elves able to cast that spell in such a land, so this
isn't that impossible a scenario....

What if humans caught by elves trespassing in the forest were polymorphed
into... ELVES! According to the spell description a person transformed by
Polymorph Other takes on the personality and mentality of the creature he is
transformed into. The likelihood of that mental switch is based upon the
intelligence of the person transformed and the relative hit dice/levels of the
creature he is changed into. Since elves can be leveled characters it is pretty
hard to make that distinction between elves and humans, so the mental switch
should be based upon intelligence alone. A human of the highest intelligence
(Khinasi get a +1 for a possible 19) would still make that mental change in
under a month according to the odds, becoming an elf for all intents and
purposes. Such a human could easily be kept charmed in the interval. When the
transformed human becomes an elf his 90% immunity to charm would kick in,
probably ending the charm spell and serving as notice that the new elf was now
fully "one of them" to the rest of the elves in the community.

One incredibly ironic possibility is that the newfound elf could be told by his
new "family" that he was the victim of a human attack and suffering from
amnesia. He will have to relearn a few things about the forest, the culture,
etc. but he'll be just fine in time.... Such polymorphed elves might bear
resentment against mortals for the loss of his memory and past experience, their
memories being very important to the psychology of elves. Maybe the elves
explain that the reason he has no family is because they were all killed by
humans.... He might be bitter enough about these things to join the Gheallie
Sidhe and hunt humans that trespass in elven lands.

Depending on how one sees the breeding of polymorphed creatures, this could also
be an explanation for half-elves. Many people I've discussed this kind of thing
with think that polymorphed creatures would breed "true" in following
generations. For instance, if one were to polymorph horses into pegasi and
breed them their offspring would be true pegasi. Personally, I've never really
liked that interpretation because it doesn't deal very well with the fact that
the parents are not "true" members of the species. Their hit dice don't change,
nor do I think does their intelligence and in my view they still pass on their
unaltered genes. (Or the magical equivalent of genes in a world where magic
exists. Who knows how such things occur with the physical laws altered the way
they are in an AD&D world?)

There was a Dragon magazine article a while back featuring the Half-Dragon
race. These demi-draco-humans come about according to the article when dragons
polymorph themselves into human form and mate with a human. The offspring,
however, have distinct draconic features and abilities. I think a similar thing
would occur when a human polymorphed into an elf mates with a true elf. A
half-elf is the result of such a coupling.

Well, this is possibly the weirdest idea I've come up with in a while.... It
makes sense in a twisted kind of way, however. There are some freaky adventure
possibilities in there someplace. What do you guys think?

Gary

[Gary V. Foss]

Elton Robb wrote:

> >What if humans caught by elves trespassing in the forest were polymorphed
> >into... ELVES!
>
> Okay, humans polymorphed into Elves, not a bad idea. However, in
> _Greatheart_, one of the Birthright Novels, Elvish Royalty found a human
> child and decided to raise him as an elf. But he wasn't polymorphed into
> one. The net result was that the human grew up as human, but was taught
> elvish traditions and culture in hopes that he can return to his people and
> teach them how to respect the land.
>
> In other words, he was spared the spell in hopes to improve interracial
> politics.

I'm afraid I have to admit I've never actually read any of the BR novels. I
know, I know, I'm a bad BRer for that, but when they came out I was knee deep
in school and just didn't have the time to pick up ANOTHER book, so I'm afraid
I don't know much about how the fiction interacts with the campaign setting.

Anyway, that is an interesting note. A human raised by elves could probably do
the Tarzan/wolfboy thing and be accepted by members of the tribe/pack
whatever. In the case of adults captured while trespassing (or kidnapped from
human lands by the GS--how's that for an adventure idea? The PCs have to
"rescue" the tharl's niece from Luabracht before she becomes "one of them" in
more ways than one.... Shades of _The Searchers_. I like it.) polymorphing
them would be the fastest way to get them to stop behaving so... human.

Gary

[Elton Robb]

>What if humans caught by elves trespassing in the forest were polymorphed
>into... ELVES!

Hello everyone, I'm back for a while.

Okay, humans polymorphed into Elves, not a bad idea. However, in
_Greatheart_, one of the Birthright Novels, Elvish Royalty found a human
child and decided to raise him as an elf. But he wasn't polymorphed into
one. The net result was that the human grew up as human, but was taught
elvish traditions and culture in hopes that he can return to his people and
teach them how to respect the land.

In other words, he was spared the spell in hopes to improve interracial
politics.

— Elton Robb

[Pieter A de Jong]

Gary V. Foss wrote:
>
>
> Here's a weird thought regarding what might happen to humans who disappear in
> elven lands....
>
> Polymorph Other is a 4th level spell, which means it would only take a 7th level
> or higher mage to cast it. My guess is that a nation like Coullabhie would have
> between 100,000 and 110,000 elves living in it. The population numbers I've
> used lead me to believe there would be around 2,000 mages in such a nation.
> There would be about 31+ elves able to cast that spell in such a land, so this
> isn't that impossible a scenario....
>
> What if humans caught by elves trespassing in the forest were polymorphed
> into... ELVES! According to the spell description a person transformed by
> Polymorph Other takes on the personality and mentality of the creature he is
> transformed into. The likelihood of that mental switch is based upon the
> intelligence of the person transformed and the relative hit dice/levels of the
> creature he is changed into. Since elves can be leveled characters it is pretty
> hard to make that distinction between elves and humans, so the mental switch
> should be based upon intelligence alone. A human of the highest intelligence
> (Khinasi get a +1 for a possible 19) would still make that mental change in
> under a month according to the odds, becoming an elf for all intents and
> purposes. Such a human could easily be kept charmed in the interval. When the
> transformed human becomes an elf his 90% immunity to charm would kick in,
> probably ending the charm spell and serving as notice that the new elf was now
> fully "one of them" to the rest of the elves in the community.
>
> One incredibly ironic possibility is that the newfound elf could be told by his
> new "family" that he was the victim of a human attack and suffering from
> amnesia. He will have to relearn a few things about the forest, the culture,
> etc. but he'll be just fine in time.... Such polymorphed elves might bear
> resentment against mortals for the loss of his memory and past experience, their
> memories being very important to the psychology of elves. Maybe the elves
> explain that the reason he has no family is because they were all killed by
> humans.... He might be bitter enough about these things to join the Gheallie
> Sidhe and hunt humans that trespass in elven lands.
>
> Depending on how one sees the breeding of polymorphed creatures, this could also
> be an explanation for half-elves. Many people I've discussed this kind of thing
> with think that polymorphed creatures would breed "true" in following
> generations. For instance, if one were to polymorph horses into pegasi and
> breed them their offspring would be true pegasi. Personally, I've never really
> liked that interpretation because it doesn't deal very well with the fact that
> the parents are not "true" members of the species. Their hit dice don't change,
> nor do I think does their intelligence and in my view they still pass on their
> unaltered genes. (Or the magical equivalent of genes in a world where magic
> exists. Who knows how such things occur with the physical laws altered the way
> they are in an AD&D world?)
>
> There was a Dragon magazine article a while back featuring the Half-Dragon
> race. These demi-draco-humans come about according to the article when dragons
> polymorph themselves into human form and mate with a human. The offspring,
> however, have distinct draconic features and abilities. I think a similar thing
> would occur when a human polymorphed into an elf mates with a true elf. A
> half-elf is the result of such a coupling.
>
> Well, this is possibly the weirdest idea I've come up with in a while.... It
> makes sense in a twisted kind of way, however. There are some freaky adventure
> possibilities in there someplace. What do you guys think?
>
Gary, congratulations on yet another twisted application of large scale
magic use in the Birthright setting. But lets take this a little
farther,
just to really (expletive deleted) a campaign up. Consider not just
polymorphing humans, but rather say baby rabbits into baby elves.
Hello,
did I just hear something about slow elven reproductive rates being
thrown
out the window. (especially if you allow the creation of polymorphing
magic
items). I chose to make baby elves, so they could be raised to properly
fit into elven society. I think I would find it neccesary to find a
method
of mucking this up IMC if an elven regent tried this.
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Gary V. Foss]

Pieter A de Jong wrote:

> Gary, congratulations on yet another twisted application of large scale
> magic use in the Birthright setting. But lets take this a little
> farther,
> just to really (expletive deleted) a campaign up. Consider not just
> polymorphing humans, but rather say baby rabbits into baby elves.
> Hello,
> did I just hear something about slow elven reproductive rates being
> thrown
> out the window. (especially if you allow the creation of polymorphing
> magic
> items). I chose to make baby elves, so they could be raised to properly
> fit into elven society. I think I would find it neccesary to find a
> method
> of mucking this up IMC if an elven regent tried this.

Polymorphing bunnies into elves wouldn't work according to the spell description. To
quote that description: "Of course, while a creature with a lower Intelligence can be
polymorphed in form into something with a higher Intelligence, it will not gain the
creature's mental ability."

Later, the spell describes the polymorphed creature taking on the "personality and
mentality" of the new form, but I don't read that as meaning it would gain that
creature's intelligence. Rather, I think "mentality" means it will gain the attitudes
of the assumed form. Fundamental gaming traits like hit dice, hit points, the ability
to go up in levels, etc. are unchanged by the spell. So elves could run around
polymorphing bunnies into elves, but these new elves would have an animal level
intelligence (not to mention a penchant for carrots and cabbage) even after the elven
personality kicked in. That'd dummy up the elven population in a pretty scary way, so
I don't think they'd try it.....

Beside and of those things, if my reading of the way cross breeding works in AD&D,
elves who mated with polymorphed rabbits would create a hybrid half-bunny/half-elf
species. (Naaaah, what's up, Doc?) I like having 1/4 and 3/4 elves in my non-BR
campaign, but adding bunny-elfs to BR wasn't exactly what I had in mind....

According to the published materials, half-elves are fully accepted into elven society
despite their human blood. Polymorphed humans could be part of the reason why....

Gary

[Taragin@sprintmail.co]

As a note to all those elves out their wishing to increase their
populations by polymorphing captured humans, rabbits, sticks, rocks, and
tin cans, the Polymorph Other spell (according to DRAGON MAGAZINE's Sage
Advice) does not change things like age (so a 21 year old human
polymorphed into an elf would be a child) or lifespan (the child would
die of old age before being old enough to adventure). Nor does the
Polymorph Other spell change sex, do if you are still foolish enough to
try this, don't kill off all those human men unless you want to use a
Necromancy spell (6th-level Change Sex)!

Alexander "the Rjurik Necromancer"

[Gary V. Foss]

Taragin@Sprintmail.com wrote:

> As a note to all those elves out their wishing to increase their
> populations by polymorphing captured humans, rabbits, sticks, rocks, and
> tin cans, the Polymorph Other spell (according to DRAGON MAGAZINE's Sage
> Advice) does not change things like age (so a 21 year old human
> polymorphed into an elf would be a child) or lifespan (the child would
> die of old age before being old enough to adventure). Nor does the
> Polymorph Other spell change sex, do if you are still foolish enough to
> try this, don't kill off all those human men unless you want to use a
> Necromancy spell (6th-level Change Sex)!

That's an interesting interpretation of the spell, and for the most part I
would agree with the way Polymorph Other spell will not change lifespan or sex.

Sidenote: It's interesting that in AD&D it is easier to be brought back from
the dead than it is to change one's sex isn't it? Even species is easier to
change than sex. Someone could be polymorphed into a gerbil, but he would have
to be a MALE gerbil. The Reincarnation spell even combines these things, one
is brought back from the dead and probably in a new species....

I would not change the sex and lifespan aspects of the spell, but I think the
interpretation is wrong on the way the age of someone polymorphed would be
effected. Do you happen to know which issue of Dragon it was in?

I would have to rule that someone polymorphed would have to change into the
RELATIVE age of the creature he was transformed into. That is, an adult human
polymorphed into an elf would become an adult elf rather than a child. If age
remains static when hit by a Polymorph Other spell then just about any human
over the age of twenty would be dead of old age if polymorphed into a dog,
wouldn't he? If not dead he would become an extremely old and rickety
pooch.... A twenty-year-old human polymorphed into a butterfly would probably
turn to dust from extreme old age if that's the way it works.

Last night it occurred to me that the reverse of this scenario could be a
pretty hilarious/bizarre gaming situation. If a member of the Gheallie Sidhe
were captured while raiding human lands, wouldn't it be funny if he were tried,
convicted and sentenced to be polymorphed into a human? If such an elf were
polymorphed into a human and the Polymorph Other spell effected his age
directly rather than relatively he would be transformed into a 100+ year old
man and probably just croak right on the spot.

There is also a rather unique situation using Polymorph Other in BR because
Cerilian elves are immortal, not just long lived. The lifespan question
becomes more difficult with this factor inserted. Is elven immortality one of
the "magical and special abilities" of elves that the Polymorph Other is
talking about when a transformed creature takes on the "personality and
mentality" of the creature he is turned into? I'm inclined to think not. I'd
go for a middle ground in this situation that I think satisfies both the Dragon
magazine interpretation (which I like) and the Polymorph Other spell
description.

A human polymorphed into an elf would change to his relative age as an elf and
would no longer suffer the effects (positive or negative) of aging as printed
in the PHB. He would not, however, be immortal. When he reached the age at
which he would die as a human he simply dies, and his body returns to human
form in which he appears to be a very old man. An elf polymorphed into a human
would not age at all, and would appear to be about twenty-years-old forever,
but because he thinks of himself as human he would have no explanation for his
immortality. He'd probably have to wander from place to place just like other
stereotypical immortal characters in fantasy/sci-fi fiction in order to keep
from being hunted by superstitious mortals.

Gary

[Tim Nutting]

does a human?

- ----------
> From: J. D. Lail
> To: birthright@mpgn.com
> Subject: RE: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Elven Birth Control
> Date: Sunday, November 08, 1998 9:13 AM
>
> >From: einarh@fagerborg.vgs.no
>
> >>If a member of the Gheallie Sidhe were captured while raiding human lands,
> >>wouldn't it be funny if he were tried, convicted and sentenced to be
> >>polymorphed into a human?
>
> Ahh, but does he now have a soul ?
>
> L8R
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> > 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.

[Gary V. Foss]

Tim Nutting wrote:

> > >>If a member of the Gheallie Sidhe were captured while raiding human lands,
> > >>wouldn't it be funny if he were tried, convicted and sentenced to be
> > >>polymorphed into a human?
> >
> > Ahh, but does he now have a soul ?

> does a human?

I think this comes from a previous thread discussion a while back about elves
having "spirits" while humans, dwarves and halflings have "souls". The
distinction having something to do with the way the Raise Dead spell works.

If elves have spirits and humans have souls I don't think that would be changed by
a Polymorph spell, so I would say no, an elf changed into a human would not have a
soul. (But he would probably still look smashing in green.)

Gary

[gingerprince]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gary V. Foss
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: 08 November 1998 07:29
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Elven Birth Control


>
>There was a Dragon magazine article a while back featuring the Half-Dragon
>race. These demi-draco-humans come about according to the article when
dragons
>polymorph themselves into human form and mate with a human. The offspring,
>however, have distinct draconic features and abilities. I think a similar
thing
>would occur when a human polymorphed into an elf mates with a true elf. A
>half-elf is the result of such a coupling.
>
>Well, this is possibly the weirdest idea I've come up with in a while....
It
>makes sense in a twisted kind of way, however. There are some freaky
adventure
>possibilities in there someplace. What do you guys think?
>
>Gary


I ran a DL campaign with a Demi Dragon in it, and the plot worked
out pretty well with the character gradually working out his heritage and
learning to use his powers. Plus the question of who his parents were and
whether there were any others of his kind. Of course in BR there are
substantial differences between the Dragons of BR and of DL.

Still any BR Demi Dragon would be a unique individual and you'd have
to come up with powers and maybe a personality reflecting his Draconic
parent. It could be very interesting.

On an entirely different point, IIRC a while back there was a long
debate on how the elves could have lost to the original human settlers of
Anuire with all their magic. I don't know if anyone pointed this out but in
the BoM it says that Elves are less likely to take destructive spells like
Fireball and Lightning Bolt that would damage their beloved forest. Perhaps
their reluctance to use the more powerful spells would explain why they were
beaten back.

Of course Rhoube and the other GS members would not have such
hesitation. "The only good human is a dead human." :-)

Nick

[BenandAmy]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Gary V. Foss
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Friday, November 13, 1998 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Elven Birth Control


>Tim Nutting wrote:
>
>> > >>If a member of the Gheallie Sidhe were captured while raiding human
lands,
>> > >>wouldn't it be funny if he were tried, convicted and sentenced to be
>> > >>polymorphed into a human?
>> >
>> > Ahh, but does he now have a soul ?
>
>> does a human?
>
>I think this comes from a previous thread discussion a while back about
elves
>having "spirits" while humans, dwarves and halflings have "souls". The
>distinction having something to do with the way the Raise Dead spell works.
>
>If elves have spirits and humans have souls I don't think that would be
changed by
>a Polymorph spell, so I would say no, an elf changed into a human would not
have a
>soul. (But he would probably still look smashing in green.)
>
>Gary



D&D metaphysics again...

SHEESHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, gingerprince wrote:

> Still any BR Demi Dragon would be a unique individual and you'd have
> to come up with powers and maybe a personality reflecting his Draconic
> parent. It could be very interesting.

This came up a couple of months ago. Someone was wondering whether there
were bloodlines in Djapar and the Dragon Islands, and if so, how. I
suggested that perhaps they didn't have actual bloodlines (i.e. from the
gods) but perhaps had something that worked in a very similar way by being
descended from polymorphed dragons. I hadn't seen the demi-dragon stuff
yet at that time, but I take it the idea is similar. This makes a certain
amount of sense when you realize that 1.) dragons have have holdings and
cast realm spells, and 2.) the Cerillian dragons couldn't gain divine
bloodlines (it says somewhere, I think the Torazin the Grey article, that
a few dragons participated in Deismaar, but that the godspower just
"rolled off of them" like water off a duck's back). Anyway, I think that
would create a culture that was interestingly distinct from Cerilia (I'd
imagine somewhat oriental, with a "dragon emperor.")

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Tim Nutting]

> D&D metaphysics again...
>
> SHEESHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

:)

Sorry.... guess I should know better by now, eh?

Later

Tim