Ch. 5 What to do with RP.

[Raesene Andu]

One of the questions that has been raised in the past, and continued to be a problem, is Regency Points, specifically, what to do to use up a regent's ever increasing stockpiles of RP. More importantly, given the current BRCS rules, where skills, feats, and other bonuses can boost a regent's chance of success, what use are RPs to a regent now other than a way to boost his bloodline? Here are a few ideas I'm proposing that change the ways regency points are handled. Please note these are only ideas for dicussion, not firm proposals, and I'm interested is seeing what everyone thinks at this stage.

1. RP Stockpiles & Automatic Bloodline Boost.
Both the original BRCS rules, and the new version of chapter 2, limit the maximum amount of RP a regent can hold at any one time (currently 2xbloodline score). I'd suggest that the excess RPs over this limit are lost at the end of a domain turn, not the beginning, thus allowing the regent to maintain a good sized stockpile of RP. With the 2x limit, the number of RP a regent has is significantly reduced.
I'd also suggest that doing away with the automatic bloodline boost after 2 domain turns would be a good idea. While I imagine most regents would like to have a boost to their bloodline, it makes planning a campaign of of expansion more difficult. Remember, under the changes to the rules, most regents are going to have a maximum RP total well less than 100 RP, compared to the hundreds possible in the original BR rules.

If we look at a few regents and their maximum RP total, you'll see what I mean...
Darien Avan = 140 RP
Areic Boeruine = 120 RP
Gavin Tael = 98 RP
Mhoried = 92 RP
And they are the leaders of the four most powerful nations in Anuire. If you look at lesser nations (e.g. Roesone, Mieres, Ilien, etc) then the regent's RP total is going to always be less than 50 RP.

If you recalculate a regent's RP total at the end of a domain turn, then someone like Darien Avan collects an extra 70 RP at the start of the turn, and gets to spend those 70 RP during the turn, before his total drops down to 140 RP again. This is a significant difference.

2. Spending RP.
Currently there is little need for the majority of regents to spend RP, in fact, with the correct selection of skills and feats, and now the contest has a base cost of 1 GB instead of 1 RP, regeny points are really just about unecessary This is fine if you want to do is eliminate RP from the BR game, but I think it is in intregal part, and it should be more important to the domain game. This problem has been raise again and again by DMs running pbems and on this forum.

The are a few ways to give RPs some meaning in the game. For example...

2.1 Increase DC
This applies especially to Rule Actions. If you make the DC 10 + (2 x target level), then you make RP suddenly a lot more important. So to rule a level 4 province to level 5, the DC is now 20 and the cost 1 GB. However, ever if you spend 5 RP, the DC drops back to 15, which is 1 higher than the BRCS rules....

Now wait a minute, didn't the above example used to cost 1 GB and 5 RP under the original rules? So in a way, all I'm proposing is a return to the original BR rules. You can still get away with not using RP, but a regent who has a bloodline has a significant advantage over regent's without the RP to spend.

Rule province I'd suggest could be redone to use the fractional increase in population proposed earlier. For example, ruling a level 4 province to level 5 requires 5 successful rule attempts, and you could list it as 4(1)/1 or something like that.

2.2 RP Maintenance of Assets
Certain assets, Ley Line and Trade Routes, could have a RP maintence of 1 RP/line or route. This would cut down the number of ley lines and trade routes a regent could have, simply because most of Cerilia's wizards and guilders don't have very high bloodlines.
For ley lines, you could add the ability to power them down, so they cost no RP to maintain (although I'd make it more difficult to power them up again, say 1 RP/province crossed).

2.3 Exponential RP expenditure.
This has been proposed before, although it is not my favourite idea. You could rule that you need to spend more and more RPs as you attempt to influence the dice rolls.
For example.


DC..................RP
Modifier............Spent
1...................1
2...................2
3...................4
4...................8
5...................16
6...................32


As I said, this is my least favourite idea, but as it has been proposed, it should be considered.

2.4 Alter costs of Domain Actions.
As it currently stands, the BRCS domain rules system has little use for RP, it fact it pretty much works without them. One way to reintroduce RP is to add in a RP cost to certain actions. So ruling a holding from level 4 to 5, would now cost 1 GB AND 5 RP, as it did in the orignal rules. Personally, I think the system of increasing DC would be better, as it amounts to the same thing, but still allows unblooded rulers to attempt to create and rule up holdings.

The contest action is one that could have a RP cost, as it is a contest of influence, not necessarily one of wealth. There are other things wrong with this action, but perhaps that is something best left for another time.


Anyway, those are the current ideas as they stand, let me know what you think.

[tcharazazel]

1. Stockpiling

I like your method of first not forcing the scion to automatically reaise his blodline (cause really it should require some conscious effort on the scions part), and allowing the regent to keep the excess RP until the end of the domain turn. I do because it will allow regents, who are good rulers, to put the otherwise wasted RP overflow to use. Like when they want to contest out some enemies.


2.1

Raising DC:

I am all for raising the DC. Not toally sure that having it be 10 + (2xnew level) is the best method, as I like just raising the base DC to 15, so until after a few more peeps post their arguments for and against, ill reserve judgement on the best method.

Raising Province Levels:

Ok, first off I thought we werent gonna allow RP to be spent to raise province levels. However, if what you are suggesting is treating raise province levels as raise holding levels, just that it needs to be done successfully a number of times equal to the new province level (5 times for to raise to level 5 province) that is a cool idea and in that case I would also recomend that a province can only be raised 1 level per year max.

On the other hand, if the raise province action can only be done once per domain turn then I strongly recomend against that method. As for is generally the average province level for most realms I'll use that as my base for this example. To get 1 province from level 4 to level 8 will take, 26 domain turns, to get to level 10 will take 45 domain turns. Very tough to raise up a domain as most have 5+ provinces. To get 5 provinces to level 8 would be 130 domain turns, or more realistically: 2 provinces to level 6, 22 domain turns, + 2 provinces to level 8, 52 domain turns, + 1 province to level 10, 45 domain turns, = 119 domain turns.

This I really would be against as its much too long. Just limiting a province to be raised 1 level per year should be enough. It would still take a level 4 province 4 years to get to level 8.


2.2

I think that its a good idea, there is one prob with RP cost for such things that you bring up in 2.4, namely that it cuts out the nonblooded regents. Now, if we all agree that nonblooded regent shouldnt be able to use Trade routes or those other assests, then ok with me.

2.3 and 2.4

I agree they both arent that good.

[CMonkey]

Was there a poll or something that showed this problem to be prevalent?

IMC and in the email game I play my players and myself have never had huge stockpiles of RP, but then we seem to value standard actions to the point where we are throwing RP at the actions in order to guarantee success.

(In one memorable instance, the one player who was saving for a Blood increase blew her entire reserve successfully fighting an excommunication for 2 turns.)

It seems bizzarre to me that you wouldn't want to ensure the 4 standard actions you get a year would be successful.

CM.

[Raesene Andu]

Was there a poll or something that showed this problem to be prevalent?

The issue of RP, especially what to spend RP on has been raised several times, both on this forum and in private e-mails. Admittidly, I usually play a wizard so large stockpiles of RP are never a problem because I cast alchemy a lot.

However, I can see where it could be a problem because of changes from the original rules that mean that a regent not only collects more RP, but now has significant modifiers to success rolls due to his skills and the regent focus feat.

With the correct selection of skills and feats a regent can now collect more RP than in the original rules, AND because of his skills and feats does not need to spend as much RP as before to achieve the same result, AND the difficult class of rolls is 1 lower than in the original BR rules. A regent can now effectively rule his domain without using any RP at all, just relying on his skills and feats to improve the success chance of actions.



IMC and in the email game I play my players and myself have never had huge stockpiles of RP, but then we seem to value standard actions to the point where we are throwing RP at the actions in order to guarantee success.

It seems bizzarre to me that you wouldn't want to ensure the 4 standard actions you get a year would be successful.

It is 12 standard actions per year actually, 1 per domain round (a domain round = 1 month). The issue really isn't about vast stockpile of RP either, that problem is solved with the new bloodline rules. What I'm talking about is giving RP some meaning, making a powerful bloodline more important than character level and a regent's skills. While both should still be important, it stands to reason that RP should be more important than skills, otherwise why do regents run every kingdom, guild, temple, and source holding in Cerilia?

[Raesene Andu]

I am all for raising the DC. Not toally sure that having it be 10 + (2xnew level) is the best method, as I like just raising the base DC to 15, so until after a few more peeps post their arguments for and against, ill reserve judgement on the best method.

I was only suggesting that for the rule holding action, and even then all you'd be doing would be changing it back to the original levels (i.e. requiring RP for rule actions).

In the original BR rules, ruling a holding from 4 to 5 cost 1 GB and 5 RP, under the BRCS rules in only costs 1 GB. This is effectively a saving of 5 RP, and you wouldn't be too far from the mark to say that the DC is now 5pts lower than in the original rules because you now have those 5 RP to spend on improving your success chance.

Changing the DC for rule actions to 10 + (2 x target level) would make the DC of the above example 20, but then when you add in the 5 RP that would have been required in the original rules, the DC drops to 15, which is EXACTLY THE SAME AS IN THE ORIGINAL BR RULES!!!!

As I've mentioned elsewhere, using the current BRCS rules, regents get more RP than before (because RP collection is not linked to class, but skills) AND actions are now cheaper. End result is that regent has more RP, so should have more ways to spend it, not less.



On the other hand, if the raise province action can only be done once per domain turn then I strongly recomend against that method. As for is generally the average province level for most realms I'll use that as my base for this example. To get 1 province from level 4 to level 8 will take, 26 domain turns, to get to level 10 will take 45 domain turns. Very tough to raise up a domain as most have 5+ provinces. To get 5 provinces to level 8 would be 130 domain turns, or more realistically: 2 provinces to level 6, 22 domain turns, + 2 provinces to level 8, 52 domain turns, + 1 province to level 10, 45 domain turns, = 119 domain turns.

I have no problem with these numbers. Remember the figures involved. Increasing a province from level 1 to level 10 is effectively an increase in population of around 200,000 people, not easy to imagine happening in just a few years, especially without depopulating other provinces. Effectively, it is as if you take 1/2 the population of Ghoere and dump it into a new province. Hard to imagine that happening overnight, however over 30 years I guess it could be possible... just. In fact, it still seems a little quick to me, perhaps change it to allow rule province to be successfully completed just once per year....

Ruling up provinces should be as difficult as possible, it makes pillage a much nastier actions and those rare few high level provinces all the more important.

[irdeggman]

I understand the issue with RP accumulation creep.

I like the auto conversion to blood score once the pool is exceeded for consecutive months. Now if people want to change the auto conversion that can be done, but I don’t think that will address the issue here.

The issue is how to stop regents from accumulating large stockpiles of RP.

The simplest method is to make it more attractive to spend RP in the first place.

I have mentioned that the way things were going with skills/feats and the basing RP collection on total modifiers vice ranks was leading to quick RP buildup in the past. It seems that people are now starting to see the game effects this can have.

The simplest solution mechanically (and still remaining inside the 3.5 mechanics system) is to increase the base DC of the actions. I had originally though going from DC 10 to 15 would work, but it is looking more like the base should be raised to 20 instead. While this seems like a rather high number for a base, remember how many different modifiers have been added to the roll now. There are synergy bonuses from ranks in similar/related skills, there are several feats that add bonuses (and actually stack with other), there is the court benefit (currently it gives a reputation bonus which gives a modifier to certain skill which include skills that are used for domain actions), there is the domain attitude and its bonus to domain actions.

Making it an exponential rate increase in the DC, while making sense, is mechanically more cumbersome than adjusting the base itself.

For example Regent Focus gives a regent +4 to a specific domain action check. The master feats give him a +2 to certain skills, which are used for domain action checks. These bonuses stack since they are not named bonuses. With 2 feats a regent can quickly gain a +6 to his check. The master feats require 9 ranks in the pertinent skills as a prerequisite skill(s) so the regent is already good at it he then gains an additional +2 and possibly a bonus from a synergy producing skill along the way.

If the base DC of 20 is used what happens is that the use of RP is of significant importance to completing a domain action. It also keeps in check how well non-scions can perform domain actions, since they can not use RP to affect an action. This allowance of non-scions performing domain actions was a feature added by the BRCS and that seems to be pretty well received by most.

[tcharazazel]

I was only suggesting that for the rule holding action, and even then all you'd be doing would be changing it back to the original levels (i.e. requiring RP for rule actions).

Ah ok, was a little confused from your example there.



I have no problem with these numbers. Remember the figures involved. Increasing a province from level 1 to level 10 is effectively an increase in population of around 200,000 people, not easy to imagine happening in just a few years, especially without depopulating other provinces. Effectively, it is as if you take 1/2 the population of Ghoere and dump it into a new province. Hard to imagine that happening overnight, however over 30 years I guess it could be possible... just. In fact, it still seems a little quick to me, perhaps change it to allow rule province to be successfully completed just once per year....


Actually, I did that calculation a while ago, that showed it takes roughly 46 years to get to a population of 10,000 to over 100,000. Here: http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...opulation&st=20 (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2740&hl=population&st=20)
We also talked about a lot of different population growth methods in that thread.

As I don't think its best to force people to play longer term games, which such a method as yours would do, I will still disagree with it being the best method for raising province levels. However, I will support it to be a variant, just not the official method. Main reason is that the PC, unless they have long life and have no desire to let their heirs take over the realm, will have died or left their realm to their heir by this time. So, the player would be able to either raise 1 province to level 10, or raise a couple provinces to medium level. Thus, the player would need to shelve their character and start up as the heir, after a while. So, after going through about 5 heirs dedicated to ruling up the realm, most or all of the provinces are about level 8.



Admittidly, I usually play a wizard so large stockpiles of RP are never a problem because I cast alchemy a lot.

Hahahaha, I was gonna put in my first post: this method is the best for source regents, and sucks for the rest.

If you combine that with the Contest Province action, that Osprey brought up earlier, It would really benefit source regents. They would just need to have a level 0 holding, like a guild holding.

In that kind of game, I would definately be playin a source regent, heheh.

[Osprey]

Concerning Domain Actions and DC's:

When I did the math, a base DC of 15 + target level kept things challenging for skilled regents, and forced RP to be spent for less-skilled regents. If the DC is raised to 20, only very skilled unblooded rulers could succeed at the lower levels.
But you are correct in that a skilled blooded regent would only need to spend RP to rule higher-level holdings. However, if the new rules for Realm Actions are introduced, in which a regent may apply his skills only to a single province in a month, then the benefits of skills are more limited. Skilled lieutenants can help here, but they won't likely help as much. Which means more RP must be spent to support Realm Actions than if the regent's skills applied everywhere.

Basically, a skilled blooded regent would get one RP-free standard action per month, but to do big things would still need to spend that RP.

If it were up to me, I'd rather see the old system restored, in which RP and min. 1 GB is required for most domain actions. I think unblooded regents have few places to rule in Cerilia. Where they do exist, I'd let them collect RP equal to their character level each season, giving a competent ruler enough regency to perform one decent or several minor domain actions per season.

I like the base cost of 1 RP per target level of holding being Ruled or Contested + 1 GB materials.
Creating a holding should be 0 RP, 1 GB.
Ruling a province could be 2 x target level in RP and GB base costs.
I'd prefer to keep this simple: may be attempted once per season; a single province may only grow one level per year maximum.
No RP or GB may be spent to support or oppose this action. Base DC 15 + target level.

With RP being required, base DC 15 for all holding actions then works pretty well.

I'm willing to compromise realism a bit here for the sake of keeping it fun and dynamic, and allowing for the supernatural effects of gods-blooded scions ruling the land.

Anyways, that's how I'd do things if it were up to me.

Osprey

[Ksaturn]

As usual i read the first few posts and form immediate and strong opinions then slowly forget them as i read everyone elses posts. lets see if i can scrape together something coherent. As to my opinion on RP i believe it should play an intregal role as it once did (based on the inspiring Book of Regency). For Non-Blooded rulers they should be at a disadvantage... but still capable. Allowing for the Stockpile idea i think you should let unblooded gain regency as per thier skills, But no stock-pile. this stated RP should be VERY important... I like the rp cost for actions and maintainence(and with this setup it might work). With the newer Bld point system you could use your(you don't lose huge chunks of RP by sacrificing your line as you did formerly... ) Bloodline to fuel actions then let it build up without half the damage that once did. with this in mind... umm... bloodstone ring magik item thingy... could convert RP to BL faster then?...

well some ideas anyway... have at them you jackals. has anyone seen my brain?

[geeman]

IMO, the idea that RP should not be required for domain actions is a

fundamental reinterpretation of the BR setting and the role of regency. It

goes along with one of the BRCS update`s other fundamental

reinterpretations--that RP stockpiles should be restricted. In that case,

the interpretation of RP as something that has a top end cap is associated

with a more political definition of what those points represent. They are

in such a description "political capital" that is built up around a regent

by his role in the domain. Having domain actions that don`t require RP is

similar in that it allows non-blooded characters to control domains of any

size. That`s a fundamental change from the original BR concept that

bloodline not only made ruling a realm easier by allowing a person to

collect RP and spend them to assure the success of his/er domain actions,

but that it was a requirement to being able to control something at the

domain level over level 0.



Having said all that, I should point out that I`m not trying to say that

one couldn`t take out RP from domain actions in order to use the BR domain

level in some other campaign setting or for the purposes of a homebrew BR

campaign that would allow non-scions to become regents. One could

similarly apply caps to RP stockpiles for whatever reason an individual DM

might want, including a non-magical interpretation of what regency

is. Personally, I don`t think the BR domain level is a particularly good

portrayal of the political level of play sans the kind of magical energy of

regency, but it`s as good or better than most other systems out there, and

in the context of D20 there`s not a lot of rules to use, so the BR domain

level (with a few basic changes) is as apt as any of the others that I`ve

seen. Therefore, someone using the BR domain system without the same

regency requirements is perfectly fine in some other context.



The question here, however, is what should go into the BRCS update, not how

the political level of play could be portrayed in a homebrew or some other

D20 setting. In the context of the BR setting it`s a pretty strong theme

that only scions can become regents and that regency has a mystical/magical

definition that is gathered through the divinely inspired bloodline, making

RP something unique to the setting and having, therefore, a particular role

in the campaign. Not using RP for domain actions ignores that fundamental

theme.



Gary

[pmcaveney]

I'm new to this discussion and may have missed something, but ...

In my games nobody EVER ends with a stockpile of useless RP - they are the bottleneck in most cases, the most precious thing in the game. The bidding and counter-bidding that goes on during Contest and Investiture actions soak up any excess - and every regent has to maintain a reserve of points to defend themselves against enemy actions. If the NPC regents aren't forcing the PC's to do this then the DM is making it too easy for them.

Have I misunderstood the rules? Is this idea something I picked up from the Gorgon's Alliance computer game and mistook for an actual rule?

From the playtest:

Regency Points: +1 per RP spent to support, -1 per RP
spent to oppose. Regents may spend RP to support or oppose
most domain action checks. The province regent and any regent
that has any holding of any level in the province in which
the domain action is taking place may spend RP to support or
oppose the action. There is no limit (save availability) to how
many RP may be spent to support or oppose an action.

[geeman]

At 10:15 PM 10/29/2004 +0200, pmcaveney wrote:



>I`m new to this discussion and may have missed something, but ...In my

>games nobody EVER ends with a stockpile of useless RP - they are the

>bottleneck in most cases, the most precious thing in the game. The

>bidding and counter-bidding that goes on during Contest and Investiture

>actions soak up any excess - and every regent has to maintain a reserve of

>points to defend themselves against enemy actions. If the NPC regents

>aren`t forcing the PC`s to do this then the DM is making it too easy for

>them.Have I misunderstood the rules? Is this idea something I picked up

>from the Gorgon`s Alliance computer game and mistook for an actual

>rule?From the playtest:Regency Points: +1 per RP spent to support, -1 per

>RPspent to oppose. Regents may spend RP to support or opposemost domain

>action checks. The province regent and any regentthat has any holding of

>any level in the province in whichthe domain action is taking place may

>spend RP to support oroppose the action. There is no limit (save

>availability) to how many RP may be spent to support or oppose an action.



Yeah, I`d agree with your assessment. Aside from being a bit of a

reinterpretation of what regency is, a RP cap strikes me as being a kind of

last stopgap for the domain level against what really is an issue of the DM

being too lenient on PC regents or not playing the NPC regents aggressively

enough.



That said, there are the occasional problematic NPC that, in the absence of

a cap, would probably have an incredibly high RP pool. Most notably the

elves and those few long lived awnsheghlien, but also those who simply have

high bloodline scores (like 50+) might have RP pools that get quite

high. Some of those character might have been collecting regency for as

many as 6,000 domain turns. Even if one subtracts a period of time (a few

years or decades) to build up a domain certain NPCs might have been able to

create a RP pool that would have thousands of RP in it unless there is some

way of controlling how much they can accumulate.



Personally, I`m not real happy with a RP cap, but I can see the motivation

for it. When it boils right down to it, though, it is amongst the easiest

things to house rule away, so I don`t really mind it being included in a

BRCS. It`s one of the things that I`ll just set aside, like magician being

a favored class for Cerilian elves....



Gary

[Angelbialaska]

Am I missing something from the rules or anything?

As I read it, then the DC to do stuff is most often 10+holding level. And the roll you make is 1d20. And then you get a few bonuses. For instance you get +1 to the roll for each 5 ranks you have in the associated skill. And you can get a feat to boost a few things. And you can take the regent focus, which applies only to one thing. So we might have perhaps +1-+5 to the roll, unless of course you directly spend a feat on just that one action. Sounds to me like you'll need to play with your RP to have more than around 50% chance of success. And remember that in ruling up a province you can't spend RP. Which makes your chance low. And it'll be lower the higher you want to rule it. No big deal to raise your province from 1 to 2, but raising it from 7-8 might take you many turns and massive amounts of money.

[irdeggman]

Am I missing something from the rules or anything?

Actually things have evolved well beyond the playtest document. Chap 2 has been revised and sanctioned - restoring the 1-100 system for bloodline score. So gaining RP is different than was presented in the playtest.

As far as spending RP to rule up a province - well that hasn't been decided yet. You have to remember this is a discussion of the revison to the playtest, looking towards a sanctioning of it and not a discussion of what the playtest document specifically says - pretty much everything is up for discussion for revision right now.

Polls have also been run to work on RP and domain rules.
One of those was that the modifier to the domain action roll is to be the total modifiers to the skill divided by 5 (makes it higher than the ranks divided by 5 in the playtest).

Many feats have been redone in chap 1 that add various things to the rolls, master level feats add bonuses to the domain action check as well as to individual skill rolls (a double benefit).

It is going to a lot easier to gain some substantial bonuses to domain action checks now.

And I'm fairly certain there will end up being some realm spells that will affect domain actions too.

[Angelbialaska]

Oh, okay. Is there any way that the completely updated rules can be found? I think the playtest version fount here is from February 2003 or something.

[irdeggman]

Originally posted by Angelbialaska@Nov 2 2004, 10:11 PM
Oh, okay. Is there any way that the completely updated rules can be found? I think the playtest version fount here is from February 2003 or something.
There isn't one.

It was decided to work out one Chapter at a time instead of rewriting the entire BRCS and going for the whole thing at once. There will be "sanctioning" votes a Chapter at a time. You'll have to check the threads to keep up on the discussion though.

The FAQ (pinned thread) has a lot of information that should be useful (also the link to the "sanctioned" version of Chap 2. I started a thread to keep track of the "latest version" of Chap 1. I've been waiting to close a couple of polls before puttng the "finishing touches" on Chap 1 and putting it out for final discussion and eventual "sanctioning" vaote, but the recent board/server problems has put a temporary hold on the process. I don't really know when the server will finish its self-correcting so that people can access the site again on a regular basis. I inserted the "patch" posted on the WotC discussion boards on my home PC and can get back on - unfortunately I don't have administrator access at work to allow me to do the same there.



Here are some links to the latest versions (text only) of Chap 2 and Chap 1. Try downloading them from the links below (all on the Birthright.net board).


Chap 2 sanctioned version:
http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...e=post&id=25154 (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=25154)

Chap 1 (mostly sanctioned version):
http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php...e=post&id=29614 (http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=29614)