Realm spells and lieutenants

[Solmyr]

I have a question: can a priest who is not a regent but rather a lieutenant to a temple regent cast realm spells through his employer's temples? In other words, if a temple holder has a priest lieutenant, can that lieutenant use his action to cast realm spells?

In a similar manner, what about a true wizard that holds no sources of his own? Can he learn realm spells, and cast them if he is a lieutenant to a source holder?

******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star
aka Azure Star Dragon
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html

[JD Lail]

>From: Aleksei Andrievski

>I have a question: can a priest who is not a regent but rather a lieutenant
to >a temple regent cast realm spells through his employer's temples? In
other >words, if a temple holder has a priest lieutenant, can that
lieutenant use his >action to cast realm spells?

In addition to the points raised by others I would add that a strict
interpretation of the rules has it that a Lt. can only perform domain
actions and not realm actions. All realm spells would be classed imo
as realm actions but YMMV.

>In a similar manner, what about a true wizard that holds no sources of his
>own? Can he learn realm spells, and cast them if he is a lieutenant to a
>source holder?

Nope you have to have a source. All of the spells have minimum source
requirements in addition to the actual RP's required just as Clerics
haqve minimum Temple levels.

L8R
Don Lail

[the Falcon]

> I have a question: can a priest who is not a regent but rather a lieutenant to a temple regent cast realm spells through his employer's temples? In other words, if a temple holder has a priest lieutenant, can that lieutenant use his action to cast realm spells?
> In a similar manner, what about a true wizard that holds no sources of his own? Can he learn realm spells, and cast them if he is a lieutenant to a source holder?

IMC, that would be no on both accounts. However, if you as a DM want to
let your players run wild with Realms Spells, then that's up to you. I
wouldn't advise it though.

- the Falcon

[Solmyr]

>IMC, that would be no on both accounts. However, if you as a DM want to
>let your players run wild with Realms Spells, then that's up to you. I
>wouldn't advise it though.
>
Okay, but then the regent of, for example, Ariya (a paladin) gets the shaft since he can't cast realm spells himself and couldn't use his louies to cast them either...

******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star
aka Azure Star Dragon
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html

[Trizt]

Solmyr of the Azure Star wrote:
> I have a question: can a priest who is not a regent but rather a lieutenant to a temple regent
> cast realm spells through his employer's temples? In other words, if a temple holder has a
> priest lieutenant, can that lieutenant use his action to cast realm spells?
Nope, s/he has to be regent of his own church to be able to cast the
realmspell.

> In a similar manner, what about a true wizard that holds no sources of his own? Can he learn
> realm spells, and cast them if he is a lieutenant to a source holder?
The wizard wouldn't be albe to use his masters source, not without
proper prodecure for borrowing source from his master (explained in
BoM). Both the Lieutenant wizard and priest can learn the spells from
their masters.

//Trizt

[Kenneth Gauck]

>Okay, but then the regent of, for example, Ariya (a paladin) gets the shaft
since he >can't cast realm spells himself and couldn't use his louies to
cast them either...

But he could make a Lieutenant into a Vassal.

KG

[Jim Cooper]

Solmyr of the Azure Star wrote:
> I have a question: can a priest who is not a regent but rather a lieutenant to a temple regent cast realm spells through his employer's temples? In other words, if a temple holder has a priest lieutenant, can that lieutenant use his action to cast realm spells?<

This question came up in my campaign as well, and we decided that no,
they couldn't. A priest, like wizards, must be tied to the holding in
order to cast the spell. However, we did, like the BoM, create a spell
under the ALL sphere that allows Pr regents to 'borrow' their holdings
out to other priests on a need-to-need basis.

> In a similar manner, what about a true wizard that holds no sources of his own? Can he learn realm spells, and cast them if he is a lieutenant to a source holder?

See the BoM - there is a spell that allows this to occur.

Cheers,
Darren

[Jim Cooper]

Solmyr of the Azure Star wrote:
> Okay, but then the regent of, for example, Ariya (a paladin) gets the shaft since he can't cast realm spells himself and couldn't use his louies to cast them either...<

Thats right! So sad, no? But that's what is cool about BR - power
gaming is ruthlessly oppressed! Thank you BR guys!

Cheers,
Darren

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

Actually, Priestly Magic is different form regular magic. Coppertive Magic
(ToM) can be used to cast realm spells. If the Palladin can cast a 1st level
spell, he can link with preists and cast the spells. This way realm spells
can be cast, but are limited by the Paladin's Casting ability. The priests
need to be blooded. I also make him use 2 priests per spell level and have a
success roll. It starts at 20, and can be modifed by 1 for each extra priest
pair and by RP.
I use this rule, and find it adds to the campaign when they get higher in
levels. Also remember blooded preists should not exist in plenty and those
linking I require to be lts at least.

Rangers can't do this because they are too self reliant to use linking magic.

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Jim Cooper wrote:
>
> Solmyr of the Azure Star wrote:
> > I have a question: can a priest who is not a regent but rather a
> > lieutenant to a temple regent cast realm spells through his
> > employer's temples? In other words, if a temple holder has a priest
> > lieutenant, can that lieutenant use his action to cast realm
> > spells?
>
> This question came up in my campaign as well, and we decided that no,
> they couldn't. A priest, like wizards, must be tied to the holding in
> order to cast the spell. However, we did, like the BoM, create a
> spell under the ALL sphere that allows Pr regents to 'borrow' their
> holdings out to other priests on a need-to-need basis.

Personly I would allow lieutenants to cast priestly realm spells. This
explains why non-priests become temple regents (most of the time
paladins, but in the Dacondragh area there is a fighter regent of the
Shield of Halaia), else the temple would be insane to make them the
boss. Afterall, realm spells are one of the main sources of power the
temple holds over the other domain types. Since it is a domain action
the lieutenant will be able to cast only 1 realm spell each turn and no
other realm or domain actions is allowed. Off coarse the lieutenant also
must be blooded.

> > In a similar manner, what about a true wizard that holds no sources
> > of his own? Can he learn realm spells, and cast them if he is a
> > lieutenant to a source holder?
>
> See the BoM - there is a spell that allows this to occur.

It is not a spell, but a free action from the wizard regent, called 'Ley
line link' that costs 1 RP. Officialy the wizard who borrows the ley
line must have a magical source, but in my opinion that is not needed.
Afterall in the same paragraph it is written that this action can be
used to teach an apprentice about realm magic. I doubt an apprentice
allready has got magical sources.

Pieter Sleijpen

P.S. Since you could concider bards magicians (except that they can cast
enchantment/charm spells also), would they be able to cast battle
spells? I know that rangers and paladins can not cast battle spells, so
bards probably also can not cast them. But what are your thoughts on
this subject?

[Binagran]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

> P.S. Since you could concider bards magicians (except that they can cast
> enchantment/charm spells also), would they be able to cast battle
> spells? I know that rangers and paladins can not cast battle spells, so
> bards probably also can not cast them. But what are your thoughts on
> this subject?

Why can't rangers or paladins cast battle spells when they're of a high enough
level?

As for bards, I would allow them to cast battle spells. If a magician can cast
a battle spell, then why can't a bard. Their spells are the same (except for
when they sing their ancient elven songs of enchantment/charm, which I suspect
may require the singing proficiency, and perhaps even a musical instrument;
like "spellsinging") and their casting level is the same (unlike a ranger and a
paladins).

Binagran

[the Falcon]

> Okay, but then the regent of, for example, Ariya (a paladin) gets the shaft since he can't cast realm spells himself and couldn't use his louies to cast them either...

So? A paladin gets regency from provinces _and_ law holdings _and_
temples. That would seem quite enough of an advantage. If he wants to
cast realm spell, he should've studied to be a priest. Tough luck.

- the Falcon

[the Falcon]

> (except for
> when they sing their ancient elven songs of enchantment/charm, which I suspect
> may require the singing proficiency, and perhaps even a musical instrument;
> like "spellsinging")

Since bards get singing and musical instrument proficiency for free, that
shouldn't pose too much of a problem. :)

[Solmyr]

>But he could make a Lieutenant into a Vassal.
>
Well, what sort of situation would that be, if the Prince-paladin doesn't control his own temple? And then there are some really oddball regents, like Tihara min Buseri of the Shield of Halaïa (who is a *fighter*, or all things)...

******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star
aka Azure Star Dragon
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html

[Jim Cooper]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
> P.S. Since you could concider bards magicians (except that they can cast enchantment/charm spells also), would they be able to cast battle
> spells? I know that rangers and paladins can not cast battle spells, so bards probably also can not cast them. But what are your thoughts on
> this subject?<

As the DM, I wouldn't allow bards realm spells either, because they are
supposed to remain neutral/apart from the normal affairs of rulership.
More importantly, they are mostly concerned with only a very special
group of people, the handful of regents in Cerilia (or I would perhaps
extent this to the blooded) as so precludes the need for knowledge about
domain-wide affecting spells. For example: A bard is upset with a
regent for whatever reason: they cast lampoon on the regent and make
certain appendiges grow leperous and non-functional over time. :D They
wouldn't bother with making the entire population suffer for whatever
fault(s) their unfortunate regent possessed.

Cheers,
Darren (If I lived in the Middle Ages, I would be a bard!)
(I probably would have a very short career too ...)
:D

[Jim Cooper]

the Falcon wrote:
>
> > Okay, but then the regent of, for example, Ariya (a paladin) gets the shaft since he can't cast realm spells himself and couldn't use his louies to cast them either...
>
> So? A paladin gets regency from provinces _and_ law holdings _and_
> temples. That would seem quite enough of an advantage. If he wants to cast realm spell, he should've studied to be a priest. Tough luck.<

Here, here! One of my favorite strategies is to make the PC regent of
Talinie a paladin and see him squirm ... Mwuhahahaa. :)

Indeed, this is one aspect of BR that I found most satisfying from TSR -
a willingness to show that not everything has to be cut and dry, by the
book to a player's wishes ... I am a firm believer in making players
work like dogs to accomplish their heroism! And having NPC's face the
same pitfalls just seems proper!

Cheers,
Darren

[the Falcon]

> Well, what sort of situation would that be, if the Prince-paladin doesn't control his own temple? And then there are some really oddball regents, like Tihara min Buseri of the Shield of Halaïa (who is a *fighter*, or all things)...

So? There's no rule against fighters or even wizards or thieves or
bards or whatnots controlling temples.

[Jeff Dunnett]

But remeber Paladins only get have regency from law and temple holding
don't they.

Jeff




- ---the Falcon wrote:
>
> > Okay, but then the regent of, for example, Ariya (a paladin) gets
the shaft since he can't cast realm spells himself and couldn't use
his louies to cast them either...
>
> So? A paladin gets regency from provinces _and_ law holdings _and_
> temples. That would seem quite enough of an advantage. If he wants
to
> cast realm spell, he should've studied to be a priest. Tough luck.
>
> - the Falcon
>
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[Kai Beste]

> But remeber Paladins only get have regency from law and temple holding
> don't they.

Full regency from both law and temple holdings.

laters

Kai

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 1/29/99 9:02:38 AM Central Standard Time,
BESTE@jerry.iued.uni-heidelberg.de writes:

> > But remeber Paladins only get have regency from law and temple holding
> > don't they.
>
> Full regency from both law and temple holdings.
>
> laters
>
> Kai
>
and of course province holdings...
- -DKE