Forsaken Priests

[Jim Cooper]

Hail low born swine!

Bow down and kiss my filthy boots, for you are in MY presense and I will
have your respect or else your heart on a platter!!!

I am Dmitri the Destroyer, son of Ivan Karenski, grandson of Sergei the
Cold!!! Chosen of Lord Belinik! Dmitr - who has drunk the blood of
thousands of lily-livered cowards, and who has killed his own father for
refusing to submit to punishment from his own son, Painmaster of
Belinik! ARRRGGGHHH!!!! GRRRRR!!!! Come get some, dogs of Brechtur!

:D

Greetings fellow BR fans! I have another question for you all:

What happens to a priest when they have lost favour with their
god(dess)? Paladins and rangers revert to the warrior class
forevermore, but what about priests? Same (they become fighters)?

I ask because one of my players is not acting at all like the way a
priest of Belinik should be acting (FMPOV, of course). So, in the next
session I am going to introduce "Dmitri the Destroyer" (the local priest
of Belinik in the province next door to the one my PCs just smashed), a
character I created for the specific purpose of teaching my players how
Vos should behave! (This is going to be so fun!!! :D Mwuhahahaaa!)
Moreover, I plan on making Dmitri the step-brother of said PC priest of
Belinik, a bullying older brother which should add a nice, personal
dimension to both characters.

Basically, my man Dmitri here is going to storm in and start running the
show, commanding their fear and respect (but I know he will receive
nothing but hatred from my players). The PCs, I hope, will realize that
they have to fight "fire with fire" (or, in this case, answer blood for
blood) in order to depose this brutal tyrant! HAH! Hopefully, in the
process, this character will inspire my PCs to get into their
characters, especially my PC priest of Belinik (who, so far, has been
thoroughly cowed and ass-whupped by the rest of the party
Disgracefull!!!)

Of course, this player has a second option - continue with his present
portrayal of a weak-willed priest of Belinik. But then I feel I have no
choice but to 1) kill him! (2) torture him and THEN kill him, or (3)
allow him to escape; but in so doing Belinik will of course have nothing
to do with him ever after. So this is my dilemna ... what will he
become when Belinik curses his worthless Vos hide? (warrior seems
obvious, so too with priests of Eloele reverting to rogue class, etc.)

Thanks for any help BR guys (wait - & Ms. Santer and Carrie, of course,
no offence!)! As always -

Cheers,
Darren (aka Dmitri the Destroyer)

[Olesens]

Jim Cooper wrote:

> Of course, this player has a second option - continue with his present
> portrayal of a weak-willed priest of Belinik. But then I feel I have no
> choice but to 1) kill him! (2) torture him and THEN kill him, or (3)
> allow him to escape; but in so doing Belinik will of course have nothing
> to do with him ever after. So this is my dilemna ... what will he
> become when Belinik curses his worthless Vos hide? (warrior seems
> obvious, so too with priests of Eloele reverting to rogue class, etc.)

Well, as I recall, priests who are unfaithful first lose access to minor
spheres, they if they really piss of their god they lose all spells. I'd
assume the same goes for forsaken priests. They'd keep all their mundane
abilities (Erik's tracking, MS/HiS; Eloele's thieving skills; Haelyn's weapon
attacks, etc.) but wouldn't get any special ones (like the ability to cast
certain spells 1/day) or any spells. They would keep advancing in mundane
abilities (Erik priest ranger abilities, Haelyn priest +1 with weapon of choice
at some higher level). In effect, they'd be priests without magic. When
giving their class IC, I'd assume that they would call themselves by whatever
they were closest to (benelik - fighter, Eloele - thief, Laraeme - bard, etc.)
I'd also assume that they'd get a bad reputation among the Vos (same goes for
Haelyn priests among faithful Anuireans, etc.) which means reaction penalties
from those who recognize them.

- -Andrew

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Jim Cooper wrote:



> Of course, this player has a second option - continue with his present
> portrayal of a weak-willed priest of Belinik. But then I feel I have no
> choice but to 1) kill him! (2) torture him and THEN kill him, or (3)
> allow him to escape; but in so doing Belinik will of course have nothing
> to do with him ever after. So this is my dilemna ... what will he
> become when Belinik curses his worthless Vos hide? (warrior seems
> obvious, so too with priests of Eloele reverting to rogue class, etc.)

Most of the time the deity in question gives the character a fair
warning by indeed removing the spell abilities or some of the granted
powers. For example, a paladin PC of Avani had made so many promises
that he could not fullfill them all. The first warning was a minor cold,
the second was the removal of spells and earning half experience.
Belinik would be a little harsher in his warnings, like removing the
spells from the priest in the middle of combat on a time he most needs
it. The priest can then regain his spell abilities after an atonement by
starting to behave properly and by full filling some quest. He will be
carefully monitored during the quest. If it is a quest to steal an item
from someone, Belinik will not like it if his priest negotiates for it.
Unless it is from a position of strength after having scared out the
wits of the current owner.

If the priest still does not behave properly, the priest will indeed
turn into a warrior of half the level of the priest (I am not that sure
on this half-bit though). Taking a look at several of the speciality
priests, I think you are right in your assessment that priests of Eloele
probabbly will become rogues of half his current level. Other then that,
they will even loose mundane abilities, like moving silently, tracking,
etc. You might want to give immidiatly these priests proficiencies like
camouflage, ambush and tracking and force them to spend the proficiency
slots on these when they get the slots.

If this happens, I would say that the newly formed warrior would be
banished from Vos society. Shunned by all, with the only way of
regaining his honor by dying bravely on the battlefield. He might even
be made a slave. I think that the Vos would concider death (even by
torture) to much honor for such a person.

Pieter Sleijpen

[the Falcon]

> What happens to a priest when they have lost favour with their
> god(dess)? Paladins and rangers revert to the warrior class
> forevermore, but what about priests? Same (they become fighters)?

They get temporarily stripped of all powers (spells and granted powers in
particular) but can be reinstated. REPENT!! - that's what I'm talkin
about... :)

Whatever the case, priests definitely do _not_ convert to another class.

Anyways, a good divine curse also goes a long way. Maybe Belinik can
curse that unruly priest to appear as everyone's worst enemy - that should
give him some work experience...

- the Falcon

[the Falcon]

> Most of the time the deity in question gives the character a fair
> warning by indeed removing the spell abilities or some of the granted
> powers. For example, a paladin PC of Avani had made so many promises
> that he could not fullfill them all. The first warning was a minor cold,
> the second was the removal of spells and earning half experience.
> Belinik would be a little harsher in his warnings, like removing the
> spells from the priest in the middle of combat on a time he most needs
> it. The priest can then regain his spell abilities after an atonement by
> starting to behave properly and by full filling some quest. He will be
> carefully monitored during the quest. If it is a quest to steal an item
> from someone, Belinik will not like it if his priest negotiates for it.

One thing I just _have_ to add here: Evil gods are not only a little
harsher on their own worshippers, they are also a little harsher on anyone
who might oppose them...

Just as an aside...

> If the priest still does not behave properly, the priest will indeed
> turn into a warrior of half the level of the priest (I am not that sure
> on this half-bit though). Taking a look at several of the speciality
> priests, I think you are right in your assessment that priests of Eloele
> probabbly will become rogues of half his current level. Other then that,
> they will even loose mundane abilities, like moving silently, tracking,
> etc. You might want to give immidiatly these priests proficiencies like
> camouflage, ambush and tracking and force them to spend the proficiency
> slots on these when they get the slots.

No way! The priest chose to be a priest and his choice is for life. Does
being a priest not mean utter and total devotion to your god? Do you
honestly believe that after not livin up to the promises you made to
Belinik, he'll just let you get away with bein a simple warrior? No sir!
Thrice no! He will punish you and he will keep on punishin until you
humbly return to his fold in a way he deems suitable. For all will bow to
Belinik! Such is the way of the Lord of Strife and as such it will
happen. Woe upon his enemies and woe upon those who betray him...

That's the way I look it at it, anyways... :)

- the Falcon

[Jim Cooper]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
> If the priest still does not behave properly, the priest will indeed
> turn into a warrior of half the level of the priest (I am not that sure on this half-bit though).<

Thanks! We now have 1 arguement for: stays priest class without spells,
and yours for: they revert to their base class (well, 2 with my vote).

Anyone else care to make their case? :)

Cheers,
Darren

[Kenneth Gauck]

>Anyone else care to make their case? :)

I don't think that forsaken priests would get the special advantages of the
new class, fighters and weapons specialization, excellent THAC0 progression,
HD, and so on; thieves the skills, and so forth.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Jim Cooper]

the Falcon wrote:
> Anyways, a good divine curse also goes a long way. Maybe Belinik can
> curse that unruly priest to appear as everyone's worst enemy - that should give him some work experience...<

ROTFL!

Heh. That's more like it! Thanks Comrade! I will keep this in mind
...

heheheheeheheee

Cheers,
Darren

[Jim Cooper]

the Falcon wrote:
> No way! The priest chose to be a priest and his choice is for life. Does being a priest not mean utter and total devotion to your god? Do you honestly believe that after not livin up to the promises you made to
> Belinik, he'll just let you get away with bein a simple warrior? No sir! Thrice no! He will punish you and he will keep on punishin until you humbly return to his fold in a way he deems suitable. For all will bow to Belinik! Such is the way of the Lord of Strife and as such it will happen. Woe upon his enemies and woe upon those who betray him...
>
> That's the way I look it at it, anyways... :)<

Damn - this is good. I'm being to be swayed now ... Hmmm ... Good
point cowboy! But would Belinik really give someone a second chance?!?

Cheers,
Darren

[Jim Cooper]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> I don't think that forsaken priests would get the special advantages of the new class, fighters and weapons specialization, excellent THAC0 progression, HD, and so on; thieves the skills, and so forth.<

But otherwise they advance just as a regular warrior or rogue would? Or
are you saying that they remain priests, but without the spells?

Cheers,
Darren

[Kenneth Gauck]

They stay priests because what is the point of being an 8 HD warrior with no
Con bonus, no weapon specialization, giving up a good save progression....
An awful lot of work when a cleric with access to the sphere of zilch works
so much better.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Cooper
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Forsaken Priests


>Kenneth Gauck wrote:
>> I don't think that forsaken priests would get the special advantages of
the new class, fighters and weapons specialization, excellent THAC0
progression, HD, and so on; thieves the skills, and so forth.<
>
>But otherwise they advance just as a regular warrior or rogue would? Or
>are you saying that they remain priests, but without the spells?
>
>Cheers,
>Darren

[the Falcon]

> Thanks! We now have 1 arguement for: stays priest class without spells,
> and yours for: they revert to their base class (well, 2 with my vote).
>
> Anyone else care to make their case? :)

I vote for stays-priest-but-stripped-of-all-spells-and-granted-powers...
definitely...

[the Falcon]

> Damn - this is good. I'm being to be swayed now ... Hmmm ... Good
> point cowboy! But would Belinik really give someone a second chance?!?

If it helps any, look at this like this: Belinik may have given this
priest a second priest, but he also gave him a good flogging. Also,
Belinik has not forgotten the slight and never will. Should the priest
digress again, his punishment will be that much more severe.

No Salvation
No Forgiveness

But he has to give his worshippers some leeway, lest they all deflect to a
more suitable faith. Of course, Belinik is more likely to keep a close
tag on his priests than on his lay worshippers.

- the Falcon

[Trizt]

Jim Cooper wrote:

> Thanks! We now have 1 arguement for: stays priest class without spells,
> and yours for: they revert to their base class (well, 2 with my vote).
>
> Anyone else care to make their case? :)

No where in may book says anything that a preist changes class (you
don't get extra hitpoints, gett better to fight and so on only for you
loose your faith). The priest will be a godless priest which means that
all special powers and spells are lost untill the priest finds another
god who are willing to grant spells.

It's only paladins who losses their paladinhood and becomes fighters
with no possibility to be a paladin once more (No magic can help here
IMHO).

//Trizt

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Trizt wrote:
>
> Jim Cooper wrote:
>
> > Thanks! We now have 1 arguement for: stays priest class without spells,
> > and yours for: they revert to their base class (well, 2 with my vote).
> >
> > Anyone else care to make their case? :)
>
> No where in may book says anything that a preist changes class (you
> don't get extra hitpoints, gett better to fight and so on only for you
> loose your faith). The priest will be a godless priest which means that
> all special powers and spells are lost untill the priest finds another
> god who are willing to grant spells.
>
> It's only paladins who losses their paladinhood and becomes fighters
> with no possibility to be a paladin once more (No magic can help here
> IMHO).

Actually it does.

But on an other level, if a priest of Belinik turns into a fighter of
two levels lower without a change into hit points or proficiencies that
would hardly change much. He had permission to use all weapons and
armor, even had something along weapon specialisation and so on. I would
not lower the THAC0 immidiatly, but let it change after that as if he
was a warrior (-1 per level). After all, he know can devote all his time
to being a warrior instead of also serving a deity.

When it comes to less warrior like priests, like Ruornil or Eloele, then
I might take the same approach.

Pieter Sleijpen

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
>
> Trizt wrote:
> >
> > Jim Cooper wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks! We now have 1 arguement for: stays priest class without spells,
> > > and yours for: they revert to their base class (well, 2 with my vote).
> > >
> > > Anyone else care to make their case? :)
> >
> > No where in may book says anything that a preist changes class (you
> > don't get extra hitpoints, gett better to fight and so on only for you
> > loose your faith). The priest will be a godless priest which means that
> > all special powers and spells are lost untill the priest finds another
> > god who are willing to grant spells.
> >
> > It's only paladins who losses their paladinhood and becomes fighters
> > with no possibility to be a paladin once more (No magic can help here
> > IMHO).
>
> Actually it does.
>
> But on an other level, if a priest of Belinik turns into a fighter of
> two levels lower without a change into hit points or proficiencies that
> would hardly change much. He had permission to use all weapons and
> armor, even had something along weapon specialisation and so on. I would
> not lower the THAC0 immidiatly, but let it change after that as if he
> was a warrior (-1 per level). After all, he know can devote all his time
> to being a warrior instead of also serving a deity.
>
> When it comes to less warrior like priests, like Ruornil or Eloele, then
> I might take the same approach.

Erm, I mean: an other approach...
(stupid mistake :-( )

[Trizt]

Pieter Sleijpen wrote:

> But on an other level, if a priest of Belinik turns into a fighter of
> two levels lower without a change into hit points or proficiencies that
> would hardly change much. He had permission to use all weapons and
> armor, even had something along weapon specialisation and so on. I would
> not lower the THAC0 immidiatly, but let it change after that as if he
> was a warrior (-1 per level). After all, he know can devote all his time
> to being a warrior instead of also serving a deity.

I could accetp a such rule, but IMHO the priest has taken his place in
the multiverse as a priest and can't that change that if not
dualclassing. If a player can't play a priest, then s/he should do a new
level 1 character or dualclass to something else.

//Trizt

[Jeff Dunnett]

I think that priest once they lose their priesthood should stay
priest. They should also be given the chance to repent and atone for
their awful deeds, much in the same way that a paladin would.

Jeff




- ---Jim Cooper wrote:
>
> Pieter Sleijpen wrote:
> > If the priest still does not behave properly, the priest will indeed
> > turn into a warrior of half the level of the priest (I am not that
sure on this half-bit though).<
>
> Thanks! We now have 1 arguement for: stays priest class without
spells,
> and yours for: they revert to their base class (well, 2 with my vote).
>
> Anyone else care to make their case? :)
>
> Cheers,
> Darren
>
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