This brings up another question

[David Sean Brown]

> In your opinion, who do you think commands more respect in Vos society -
> the clan leader (warriors), or a priest(s) of Belinik (regardless of
> whether or not said priests can actually cast spells)?
>
I think you need to decide exactly what you mean...respect for deed and
might, of respect from fear...while both clan leaders and priests of
belenik command respect for both reasons, I think the general populace of
the Vos society respects their Tsaveros more out of respect for their
deeds, while preiests command respect out of fear. Vos are a tough brutal
peoples, and from what I've seen, the priests seem to be the most brutal
of all...and have the backing of the church across the whole region to
back them up..they got their position through the favor of Belenik (and
some classy assasinations no doubt) while the wariors had to do it the
hard way..stepping on the throats of their enemies (and a few friends) to
gain any position they achieve....just a few thoughts anyway..

Sean

[Jim Cooper]

David Sean Brown wrote:
> I think you need to decide exactly what you mean...respect for deed and might, of respect from fear...while both clan leaders and priests of
> belenik command respect for both reasons, I think the general populace of the Vos society respects their Tsaveros more out of respect for their
> deeds, while preiests command respect out of fear.<

Mmmm, very good point. I think, though, that I just want a first
impression, more of a 'on the spot' impression.

Basically, given no prior knowledge of either individual, irregardless
of their individual achievements and merits, who would a commoner side
with - the warrior or the priest, when one is arguing with the other?
Warrior is the obvious favourite class of Vos society, but who would a
Vos person listen to first, if they just one day happened upon a priest
and a warrior arguing on the road, so to speak? Their leader or their
priest?

Basically, in Vos society I think one earns respect for deeds and might
BECAUSE of the fear of the brutally of their leader's actions. This is
why I currently favour the position that Belinik priests would instantly
garner respect, on first impression, whereas other 'mundanes' must earn
it in a Vos persons' eyes first, relatively speaking ... Granted, I
don't see priests of Belinik actually doing a lot of great and mighty
deeds, but their feriocity, brutality, and foam at the mouth more than
makes up for the actual (lack of) deeds in comparison to a warrior who
is (relatively) more capable of actually doing great deeds and such (in
game terms). I don't think that last part came out just right, but ...
well, thats the best I can do this late!

Hope that helps ...

Cheers,
Darren

[Morg]

The ever dubious Canuck known mostly as 'Jim Cooper' , who might actually tell us all who 'Jim' really is one day, wrote:

[sniperooskie!]

> who would a commoner side
> with - the warrior or the priest, when one is arguing with the other?

AKKKK!!! I'd hate to be this unlucky Vos!!!! Man what a fix! Obey the warrior and live to tell another Brecht slaying tale, there by risking the
wrath of Belenik and the church of Vosgaard. Or listen to the priest, receive much praise and favour from the church, only to have your head lopped
of for bruising the ego/honour of the warrior..... man.... what a good time for a goblin invasion.

> Warrior is the obvious favourite class of Vos society, but who would a
> Vos person listen to first, if they just one day happened upon a priest
> and a warrior arguing on the road, so to speak? Their leader or their
> priest?

I think most Vos fancy themselves skilled warriors, and so while they may have a personal 'respect' for the warrior in question, I think most Vos
would feel that they could at least defend themselves (and possibly die honourably at the hands of a greater warrior) from him. While a priest
wields great, powerful and mysterious magics. How to defend yourself from the wrath of a God? You can't, no matter how sharp your war spear is.

You can always stab the warrior dead (if only by luck), but slight the priest, and your soul will be Azrai fodder!

> Basically, in Vos society I think one earns respect for deeds and might
> BECAUSE of the fear of the brutally of their leader's actions. This is
> why I currently favour the position that Belinik priests would instantly
> garner respect, on first impression, whereas other 'mundanes' must earn
> it in a Vos persons' eyes first, relatively speaking ... Granted, I
> don't see priests of Belinik actually doing a lot of great and mighty
> deeds, but their feriocity, brutality, and foam at the mouth more than
> makes up for the actual (lack of) deeds in comparison to a warrior who
> is (relatively) more capable of actually doing great deeds and such (in
> game terms). I don't think that last part came out just right, but ...
> well, thats the best I can do this late!

I agree with much of what you have said here big D! I do not think the priest would earn instant respect though. The fighter would I think (even
more so since he has the nerve, or stupidity depending on your PoV), as he is something most Vos can relate to on a personal level. The priest would
receive instant obedience I think, but not necessarily respect. The Vos in question could probably care less about the priest as a person, but since
he has the power of a God behind him, this is what drives the average man to obedience.

I have always thought fear was a natural form/condition of respect, but as I think on this, it seems to me that there is a distinct difference
between the two. You can fear the priest for what the God will do to you, but still, you need not respect the priest at all. I think of Judge
Frollo (sp?) in the Notre Dame story (I'm speaking of the animated Disney one here, having just watched it with my kids this morning....) :0
Frollo would be a fine example of a priest who has power & authority like a Belenik priest might, but do you actually respect him?? No. You do fear
him though, and obey him because of this fear. The good Captain though, you respect, because of what he stands for, for what he has accomplished.

Anyway, that's the way I see it.

Morg (the 'can I graduate to senior vice president of the Arinienbae Canuck mad man club yet Darren???')

- --
"I hate it when my brain stem hurts."
The New Draftmine Repository:
http://members.home.net/morgramen/index.html

[Kenneth Gauck]

Without claiming any views on the Vos per se, I think it is always more
interesting (and dramatic) if the views of the people are always divided on
who deserves the greater respect. For that reason I would say some would
immediatly tend toward the priestly, and others the warriors, and that for
one to predominate they're message must conform with the needs and goals of
the community.

The more complex the society, the more loyalties should be divided between
local and realm authority, the holder of the land, the law, the guilds, the
temples, even for some the sources, and possibly other instituitions as
well.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Jim Cooper]

My Faithful War Comrade wrote:
> The ever dubious Canuck known mostly as 'Jim Cooper' , who might actually tell us all who 'Jim' really is one day<

Mwuhahaaaa!!! No one will EVER know! HAHAHA!!! Never! NEVER!!! :D

> I agree with much of what you have said here big D! I do not think the priest would earn instant respect though. The fighter would I think (even more so since he has the nerve, or stupidity depending on your PoV), as he is something most Vos can relate to on a personal level. The priest would receive instant obedience I think, but not necessarily respect. The Vos in question could probably care less about the priest as a person, but since he has the power of a God behind him, this is what drives the average man to obedience.<

This is very true - I stand corrected. Thanks, Keith! :) Good example
too (but, I hated that Disney movie - not at ALL like the book, and
totally like as IF anyone would act the way those characters did!)

> Morg (the 'can I graduate to senior vice president of the Arinienbae Canuck mad man club yet Darren???')<

Weeelllll ... that depends. You see, being as I'm on this side of the
continent, and being that Victoria is *right* on the water here - and
being that WotC HQ is in territory what we Canuck clubbers ought to have
as our rightful claim (those damn Yankees SO tricked us into giving them
dat dere Oregon territory, when everyone knows its belonged to us!) -
we first must establish who has supremacy in this little part of the
world. Now, since WotC hasn't coughed up even ONE measly little iota of
information on whether or not BR will ever see the light of day again,
this gives us the perfect reason to storm their little piddely gaming
fort down there in Rent'n Warshington. Don't ya agreee mon ami?!? So,
first ya have to be willing to cause death, pillage, and mayhem.

'Course, the second part requires that ya be not right in the head -
which is tougher than it looks :D - but then again, being as how you've
already agreed ta be my apprentice, this shows ya have promise! :D

Lastly, ya have to worship Da MAN, Mr. Tim Nutting! :) (He has
honorary membership in our little Canuck fan club - which means he gets
first dibs on all da girls we capture down dere in Warshington ---
, so wez kinda have to be nice ta him).

P.S Lastly - youse also must erect a shrine to Ms. Bebris, being as I
made a promise to worship her too! Verily, making a webpage devoted to
her would even be better, so if you can do that, then you can forget
everything I just said and skip right to being VP guy! ;)

(Don't forget to put my name up on there somewhere!)

:D

(Okay, okay, its 3 in the morning! Give me a break!) :D

Cheers,
Darren

[Kenneth Gauck]

Fourty-Four Fourty or Fight!

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net


- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Cooper
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 5:11 AM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - This brings up another question ...

>those damn Yankees SO tricked us into giving them
>dat dere Oregon territory, when everyone knows its belonged to us!) -

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Jim Cooper wrote:

> Mmmm, very good point. I think, though, that I just want a first
> impression, more of a 'on the spot' impression.
>
> Basically, given no prior knowledge of either individual, irregardless
> of their individual achievements and merits, who would a commoner side
> with - the warrior or the priest, when one is arguing with the other?
> Warrior is the obvious favourite class of Vos society, but who would a
> Vos person listen to first, if they just one day happened upon a priest
> and a warrior arguing on the road, so to speak? Their leader or their
> priest?

Actually, the way I see it, the Priests of Belenik are in a somewhat
interesting bind. The rules of Belenik's priesthood are such that, if you
DO get into an argument with the local Tsarevo, and he gets mad and chops
off your head for crossing him, then that's his right. If you were weak
enough to get your head lopped off in a fight with a stinkin Tsarevo, then
you don't DESERVE to be Belenik's Priest. If a commoner came up a hill to
a Tsarevo arguing with a Priest he would side with whoever was left
breathing once the argument was over. The commoner would not intervene, in
fact I think both parties would be very angry with the commoner if he DID
intervene, and thus preventing their god-granted right to prove their
inherent superiority on the body of their detractor.

I think the Tsarevos are the cultural leaders of the Vos, and the priests
of Belenik, if they believe it necessary to oppose their Tsarevo, must
either work together to provide enough overwhelming force that they cow
the Tsarevo into submission (probably pretty rare to get enough priests of
Belenik to agree to anything of the sort--only very important reasons
would be a sufficient motivation) or to work around the Tsarevo,
influencing his fighters against him, provoking duels among his
supporters, and generally leading a ground-swell of grass-roots support
against the Tsarevo. I think this second option is the one generally used,
and interestingly makes the Priests of Belenik into one of the most feared
opponents in Cerilia, for it makes them not only strong and brutal and
fearless, but also incredibly cunning.

Or at least that's my view of the Vos.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

Oh, and another thought along these lines,

I think it's perfectly acceptable for a Tsarevo to challenge a priest to a
duel, and perfectly acceptable for a priest to challenge a Tsarevo to a
duel. However, there's some strategy involved as well. Perhaps I should
say "provoke" a duel rather than challenge. If a priest can prepair
himself, cast protection spells and such about him, and THEN go into the
presence of the Tsarevo and provoke a challenge, then he can fight the
Tsarevo with the advantage of magick on his side. If the Tsarevo provokes
a challenge from the priest, then he can fight right away before the
priest has time to cast his magick. However, if the priest outright
challenges the Tsarevo, then as the challenged the Tsarevo can pick the
time of the fight, and thus can buy himself time to get his own priest to
cast protection spells on him to help even the stakes.

Mark

[the Falcon]

> Basically, given no prior knowledge of either individual, irregardless
> of their individual achievements and merits, who would a commoner side
> with - the warrior or the priest, when one is arguing with the other?
> Warrior is the obvious favourite class of Vos society, but who would a
> Vos person listen to first, if they just one day happened upon a priest
> and a warrior arguing on the road, so to speak? Their leader or their
> priest?

Somehow, a warrior "they just one day happened upon" and "their leader"
just don't sound quite the same... If they'd just happened upon some
warrior, it seems to me they would side with the priest. Otherwise, my
best bet would be on their leader. After all, he is their _leader_...

Just a few words...

- the Falcon

[Jim Cooper]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> Fourty-Four Fourty or Fight!<

Heh. Tell me about it! :)

The sad part is - we gave up without a fight! DAMN!!! Gah! After
Frontenac gave youse Amerikans such a whuppin', you'd think we at least
woulda had a brawl or two across the '44!

:D

Foaming at the mouth,
Dmitri the Destroyer (Biting the shaft of my battle-axe!!!!! Grrrrr)

[Jim Cooper]

Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> Fourty-Four Fourty or Fight!<

Course, then again, t'would neither be a fair nor honorable fight for us
northern barbarians to beat up on a bunch of girlie-men 'cross the '44.

:D



Asking for it,
Dmitri (Bring it ON!) the Destroyer

[Jim Cooper]

Again, Mark, you prove yourself a much better debater than I!

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
> Actually, the way I see it, the Priests of Belenik are in a somewhat
> interesting bind.<

Actually, truthfully, I see BOTH sides in an intereseting bind, and
that's my dilemna!

> The rules of Belenik's priesthood are such that, if you
> DO get into an argument with the local Tsarevo, and he gets mad and chops off your head for crossing him, then that's his right. If you were weak enough to get your head lopped off in a fight with a stinkin Tsarevo, then you don't DESERVE to be Belenik's Priest.<

This view, of course, is 100% Vos, Grade A goodness! On the other hand,
wouldn't the Tsarevos be signing his own death warrant for daring to
stand up to a priest of Belinik? Of course, this is only right in Vos
society (might makes right), but on the same token its a very, very
stupid thing for the tsarevos to do! That's the bind - the tsarevos
can't back down, else his honor is forfeit, nor can he really risk
slamming the priest because then I would argue the WHOLE priesthood of
Belinik will hound him to his deathbed; IMPOV, the priests of Belinik
would never stand to let a non-priest disgrace their cult like that - in
their eyes, everyone else comes a distant second, no matter how tough
they are - you obey them (and never make them lose face), or thats it -
no soup for you! :D

On the other hand, I think it would be stupid for a priest of Belinik to
actually go toe to toe with a tsarevos, as this does two things: 1) if
the priest loses, he will have a very short life span - his Brothers in
Arms will be the first in line! & (2) it would prove to the locals that
priests of Belinik aren't all as tough as they are cracked up to be if a
mere 'warrior' can best a disciple of Belinik, Lord of Strife. Note
however, that a priest of Belinik MUST provoke stand-offs like this as
Belinik demands it! "[they] must never back down from a fight (and,
IMO, must never appear to be weak)." The point is, the priest of
Belinik ought to have spirtual authority over a clan, so much so that
the clan warriors will instantly (more like unconsciously or conditioned
from birth) back the leading priest of Belinik whenever things get
heated between the two sides. If they didn't, the priests would be able
to do the Vos equivalent of excommunication for the foolish Vos warrior
who didn't defend his God in the body of the priest (meaning a slow
torture and a horrible death). :D

You see, my problem is that my PC priest of Belinik DID go toe to toe
with my PC tsarevos - twice. And lost - twice ... in the first session
playing these characters ... Heh. Which is cool, since these
ARE Vos we're talking about here, but not so good in that I can't see
any reason for this unfortunate PC to remain alive - his only hope is if
he can claim some kind of spiritual obedience from the warriors of the
tribe (he has already lost any semblence of sympathy from the other PC
players). I would prefer to give my poor PC a second chance, even if no
one else in his society will - and I figure that Dmitri would be the
perfect way for him to gain back some measure of 'dignity' by
challenging this tyrant in brutal Vos fashion!

> I think the Tsarevos are the cultural leaders of the Vos, and the priests of Belenik, if they believe it necessary to oppose their Tsarevo, must either work together to provide enough overwhelming force that they cow the Tsarevo into submission (probably pretty rare to get enough priests of Belenik to agree to anything of the sort--only very important reasons would be a sufficient motivation) or to work around the Tsarevo, influencing his fighters against him, provoking duels among his supporters, and generally leading a ground-swell of grass-roots support against the Tsarevo. I think this second option is the one generally used, and interestingly makes the Priests of Belenik into one of the most feared opponents in Cerilia, for it makes them not only strong and brutal and fearless, but also incredibly cunning.<

I guess I see the priests as the cultural leaders of Vos society, but
only because it would be them performing the ritual murders before every
battle and whipping the warriors up into a frenzy, and I bet its the
priests of Belinik who are the first in line at the front of the battle
(if some silly Vos warrior got in the way, I can see them cutting the
silly warrior down first!). By extension, I figure this would filter
down into the everyday life of Vos culture as well. But I also
appreciate the above arguement that they must also work around the
tsarevos and either have to band together as a priesthood or cultivate
the loyalty of the troops.

But I've always imagined that the Temple of Might and the One True
Church of Vosgaard was rather unified in practice (sadly, and
ironically, unlike the churchers of Haelyn I might add! Woo hoo! I
love BR!). Ergo, so too are the priests of these churchers, and
therefore they are a huge cult-like entity that drives the engine of Vos
society. Whereas I see the tsarevos as a mutlitude of petty tyrants
squabbling amongst themselves (and its chiefly this reason that the Vos
aren't as big a threat as they could be), Vos priests are not. They are
one big, bullying gang of cutthroats! I concluded then, being the the
priesthood (along with Kriesha's adherents) are relatively unified
compared to the warrior clans, they could push the individual tsarevos'
around with ease (within reason).

What does everyone else think? Warrior or priest, who has cultural
authority?

Cheers,
Darren

[Jim Cooper]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
>However, if the priest outright challenges the Tsarevo, then as the challenged the Tsarevo can pick the time of the fight, and thus can buy himself time to get his own priest to cast protection spells on him to help even the stakes.<

GAHHH!!! If I was the DM here, I would punish these two COWARDS!
MAGIC?!?!?!? Kripes! GRRRRR!!! Belinik would slay BOTH of them for
suggesting such a thought.

First, as Belinik, I would never grant that stinking priest even one
measly 1st level spell for *preparing* himself for a battle! This is
anathema to priests of Belinik! Burst blood vessels in the brain -
thats all the preparation one needs!!! :D

Secondly, a warrior who hides behind protective spells is no warrior AT
ALL! He is no better than those stinkin' Brecht or those lily-livered
Anuireans! Even goblins will fight properly!

Heh - actually, I think that's why my PC priest lost big time in the
first duel with the PC tsarevos - I didn't grant him any spells! Hah!
If he can't fight, then he don't deserve to live! Right? :) The
second fight I gave in, and allow spells (since my PC tsarevos I figured
was overstepping his bounds here), but unfortunately for the PC priest,
the tsarevos made all his saving throw rolls ... poor guy ... :)

Cheers,
Darren (who is likin' the Vos more and more every day!)

[Jim Cooper]

the Falcon wrote:
> Somehow, a warrior "they just one day happened upon" and "their leader" just don't sound quite the same... If they'd just happened upon some warrior, it seems to me they would side with the priest. Otherwise, my best bet would be on their leader. After all, he is their _leader_...<

Oopss. good point. I meant to say warrior, in all cases.

Cheers,
Darren

[Samuel Weiss]

>Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> Fourty-Four Fourty or Fight!<

Course, then again, t'would neither be a fair nor honorable fight for us
northern barbarians to beat up on a bunch of girlie-men 'cross the '44.

:D



Asking for it,
Dmitri (Bring it ON!) the Destroyer<

You are just upset because you are going to be stuck with Prince Chuck for
life, while we get rid of Bill in another 2 years.
You know you all wish we had gone north and made you all decent upstanding
states.

Giving it,
Samwise the Imperialist

[the Falcon]

> First, as Belinik, I would never grant that stinking priest even one
> measly 1st level spell for *preparing* himself for a battle! This is
> anathema to priests of Belinik! Burst blood vessels in the brain -
> thats all the preparation one needs!!! :D

Bullshit. Belinik may want his priests to be ruthless, but he doesn't
want them to be fools. True Strife can only be obtained by proper
planning.

> Secondly, a warrior who hides behind protective spells is no warrior AT
> ALL! He is no better than those stinkin' Brecht or those lily-livered
> Anuireans! Even goblins will fight properly!

Most protective spells aren't really that visible, so the warrior in
question could just have himself boost up by various spells without any
layman noticing. Why, they would only see his might as confirmation that
he is truly a great warrior! Belinik has never forbidden his worshippers
to be devious.

- the Falcon

[Jim Cooper]

the Falcon wrote:
he is truly a great warrior! Belinik has never
forbidden his worshippers to be devious.<

I reverse my arguements that you rebutted. Your right - after I thought
about it yesterday, I don't think Belinik would be so stingy on the
spell-giving. What better way to prove your might than by pretentious
displays of power! I will make amends to my PC priest of Belinik!

Apologies for arguing with ya too Mr. VanD!

Cheers,
Darren

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Jim Cooper wrote:

> the Falcon wrote:
> he is truly a great warrior! Belinik has never
> forbidden his worshippers to be devious.<
>
> I reverse my arguements that you rebutted. Your right - after I thought
> about it yesterday, I don't think Belinik would be so stingy on the
> spell-giving. What better way to prove your might than by pretentious
> displays of power! I will make amends to my PC priest of Belinik!
>
> Apologies for arguing with ya too Mr. VanD!

Hey you NEVER have to apologize for arguing with me. The world would be
entirely too boring if EVERYONE agreeded with me (although I admit some
days I'm ready to give it a try).

I guess the way I see the priesthood of Belenik is colored somewhat by my
picture of them as priests of the god of STRIFE. In fact, I don't really
think they actually have a priesthood, as such, as much as just a bunch of
priests, who occasionally get well-enough organized by a priest with
enough bloodline and charisma to organize them into a holding. However, I
see no reason why Strife wouldn't be characteristic among their own
brotherhood as well. I see the priests of Belenik hating each other only
slightly less than they hate the local Tsarevo.

I see Belenik priests pretty much as outside the culture--above it, sure;
directing and influencing it, certainly; but no one invites his local
priest of Belenik over for a nice dinner of an evening, either. Of course,
no one would dream of not inviting him if the occasion was public, like a
party or a celebration, but you want him around on a regular basis the way
you want to cuddle up to a giant scorpion. I suspect that the priests of
Belenik spend much of their time between wars tucked in their little Dens
of Testosterone with the young, unmarried men of the village/tribe, and a
few particularly devout older followers, rather than rubbin' elbows with
the unwashed. Either that or at the Tsarevo's court attempting to get the
next war started.

On the other hand, I think the people really like their Tsarevos. Maybe
love is too strong a word, but they respect them and follow them
willingly. The Tsarevo is one of them, walks among them, is the person
they go to if they have a problem. He's the guy who decided whether they
will fight or not, and with whom, and who divvies up the loot afterwards.
He is the one who is really looking out for their best interests. Because
if he isn't then some young upstart will challenge him for his position.

I suppose my biases are because of the first Belenik Priest I ever
created, a NPC to run the Temple of Might in Osoerde. He ended up being
the real source of all the chaos and strife in Osoerde, even though that
wasn't how I intended it to go when I was planning my campaign. He was a
mean, ruthless, cunning old bastard, and my players hated him not because
he was such an excellent warrior (he wasn't--that was why he had to leave
Vosgaard), but because he was so good at getting them to fight amongst
themselves and their allies. He was cunning and deceptive, which you might
not think of as prime requirements for a Priest of Belenik, but man was he
good at causing STRIFE.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Jeff Dunnett]

Give me old big ears anyday over old zipperboy.

Jeff




- ---Samuel Weiss wrote:
>
> >Kenneth Gauck wrote:
> > Fourty-Four Fourty or Fight!<
>
> Course, then again, t'would neither be a fair nor honorable fight
for us
> northern barbarians to beat up on a bunch of girlie-men 'cross the
'44.
>
> :D
>
>
>
> Asking for it,
> Dmitri (Bring it ON!) the Destroyer<
>
> You are just upset because you are going to be stuck with Prince
Chuck for
> life, while we get rid of Bill in another 2 years.
> You know you all wish we had gone north and made you all decent
upstanding
> states.
>
> Giving it,
> Samwise the Imperialist
>
>
>
>
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with
the line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

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