I feel it`s my duty

[brandes]

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Hey subscribers:
The ceaseless attacks on Forgotten Realms are really unnecessary. The =
fact that you still play a campaign world that the creators gave up on =
states well enough that you prefer this world.
It's my duty to defend FR, the most popular campaign world, well, ever, =
against libel. The main complaint: it has too much magic. Gee, let me =
think, that's the DM's decision completely. If magic gets out of hand =
in ANY campaign, there's only one person to blame. As a corollary to =
that statement, I had a worse problem with magic in my Birthright =
campaign than I do in my current FR campaign. The problem raced from =
the fact that the major NPC's boast some outrageous magic for a world =
that pretends to be low-magic. In my FR campaign, there is no real =
danger of my PC's deciding to go hunt down an NPC, even an evil one, =
just to take his sword +5 (or whatever). This happened in BR. Aramis, =
a 5th level thief, made quick work of Guilder Kalien because he wanted =
the sword +1. He broke into Kal-Saitharak (sp?) and, at 7th level, took =
Bloodsilver and Prince Fhilaraene (sp?) from the Gorgon's throne room, =
despite massive security. What I'm saying is that the BR designers just =
sort of threw everything out there. Most NPC's of ANY note have serious =
magic.
The other aspect of any arguments claiming BR to be low-magic is that =
wizards can't do much as regents (true) and aren't as dominant as FR =
wizards. As to the second part, bullfeathers. Take a peek at sources =
like the Blood Enemies sourcebook. Now tell me that wizards aren't as =
dominant. Hmmm . . . Magian? Gorgon? White Witch? Banshegh? Rhoube? =
Chimera? Shall I continue?
I don't doubt that someone will respond to this post with "Hey, shut up =
about FR, this is a BR mailing list." I will qualify my post by saying =
that I just want everyone else to stop trashing FR in their posts. =
That's really the only reason I am writing this.
Balthasar
brandes@gateway.net=20

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Hey subscribers:
The ceaseless attacks on Forgotten =
Realms are=20
really unnecessary.  The fact that you still play a campaign world =
that the=20
creators gave up on states well enough that you prefer this =
world.
It's my duty to defend FR, the most =
popular=20
campaign world, well, ever, against libel.  The main =
complaint:  it=20
has too much magic.  Gee, let me think, that's the DM's decision=20
completely.  If magic gets out of hand in ANY campaign, there's =
only one=20
person to blame.  As a corollary to that statement, I had a worse =
problem=20
with magic in my Birthright campaign than I do in my current FR =
campaign. =20
The problem raced from the fact that the major NPC's boast some =
outrageous magic=20
for a world that pretends to be low-magic.  In my FR campaign, =
there is no=20
real danger of my PC's deciding to go hunt down an NPC, even an evil =
one, just=20
to take his sword +5 (or whatever).  This happened in BR.  =
Aramis, a=20
5th level thief, made quick work of Guilder Kalien because he wanted the =
sword=20
+1.  He broke into Kal-Saitharak (sp?) and, at 7th level, took =
Bloodsilver=20
and Prince Fhilaraene (sp?) from the Gorgon's throne room, despite =
massive=20
security.  What I'm saying is that the BR designers just sort of =
threw=20
everything out there.  Most NPC's of ANY note have serious=20
magic.
The other aspect of any arguments =
claiming BR to=20
be low-magic is that wizards can't do much as regents (true) and aren't =
as=20
dominant as FR wizards.  As to the second part, bullfeathers.  =
Take a=20
peek at sources like the Blood Enemies sourcebook.  Now tell me =
that=20
wizards aren't as dominant.  Hmmm . . . Magian?  Gorgon?  =
White=20
Witch?  Banshegh?  Rhoube?  Chimera?  Shall I=20
continue?
I don't doubt that someone will respond to this post =
with=20
"Hey, shut up about FR, this is a BR mailing list."  I =
will=20
qualify my post by saying that I just want everyone else to stop =
trashing FR in=20
their posts.  That's really the only reason I am writing =
this.
Balthasar
brandes@gateway.net=20


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[Solmyr]

Tämä on moniosainen MIME-muotoinen viesti.

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I don't doubt that someone will respond to this post with "Hey, shut =
up about FR, this is a BR mailing list." I will qualify my post by =
saying that I just want everyone else to stop trashing FR in their =
posts. That's really the only reason I am writing this.
=20
Here! Here! If you cannot defend your favorite world except by =
bashing another world, you aren't making any good impressions.
=20
******************
Aleksei Andrievski
aka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Star
aka Azure Star Dragon
solmyr@kolumbus.fi
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html


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I don't doubt that someone will respond to this =
post with=20
"Hey, shut up about FR, this is a BR mailing list."  =
I will=20
qualify my post by saying that I just want everyone else to stop =
trashing FR=20
in their posts.  That's really the only reason I am writing=20
this.
 
Here! Here! If you cannot defend =
your=20
favorite world except by bashing another world, you aren't making =
any good=20
impressions.
 
******************Aleksei=20
Andrievskiaka Solmyr, Archmage of the Azure Staraka Azure =
Star=20
Dragonsolmyr@kolumbus.fiht=
tp://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/index.html

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[Ben]

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I think your own bad experiences with BR are the result of the same =
DM mistakes you point out here. You let a 7th level thief break into =
stony's throne room and get away with it? Shame on you...
I'm not a big fan of FR myself--only because I don't like the feel =
of the setting.
That's my choice, and, no, I don't go around telling people that like it =
that they're stupid. But I DO go around telling people that BR is a =
better setting.

=
Ben
-----Original Message-----
From: brandes
To: birthright@MPGN.COM
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 5:06 PM
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - I feel it's my duty
=20
=20
Hey subscribers:
The ceaseless attacks on Forgotten Realms are really unnecessary. =
The fact that you still play a campaign world that the creators gave up =
on states well enough that you prefer this world.
It's my duty to defend FR, the most popular campaign world, well, =
ever, against libel. The main complaint: it has too much magic. Gee, =
let me think, that's the DM's decision completely. If magic gets out of =
hand in ANY campaign, there's only one person to blame. As a corollary =
to that statement, I had a worse problem with magic in my Birthright =
campaign than I do in my current FR campaign. The problem raced from =
the fact that the major NPC's boast some outrageous magic for a world =
that pretends to be low-magic. In my FR campaign, there is no real =
danger of my PC's deciding to go hunt down an NPC, even an evil one, =
just to take his sword +5 (or whatever). This happened in BR. Aramis, =
a 5th level thief, made quick work of Guilder Kalien because he wanted =
the sword +1. He broke into Kal-Saitharak (sp?) and, at 7th level, took =
Bloodsilver and Prince Fhilaraene (sp?) from the Gorgon's throne room, =
despite massive security. What I'm saying is that the BR designers just =
sort of threw everything out there. Most NPC's of ANY note have serious =
magic.
The other aspect of any arguments claiming BR to be low-magic is =
that wizards can't do much as regents (true) and aren't as dominant as =
FR wizards. As to the second part, bullfeathers. Take a peek at =
sources like the Blood Enemies sourcebook. Now tell me that wizards =
aren't as dominant. Hmmm . . . Magian? Gorgon? White Witch? =
Banshegh? Rhoube? Chimera? Shall I continue?
I don't doubt that someone will respond to this post with "Hey, shut =
up about FR, this is a BR mailing list." I will qualify my post by =
saying that I just want everyone else to stop trashing FR in their =
posts. That's really the only reason I am writing this.
Balthasar
brandes@gateway.net=20

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    I=20
think your own bad experiences with BR are the result of the same DM =
mistakes=20
you point out here. You let a 7th level thief break into stony's throne =
room and=20
get away with it? Shame on you...
    I'm not a big fan of =
FR=20
myself--only because I don't like the feel of the =
setting.
That's =
my choice,=20
and, no, I don't go around telling people that like it that they're =
stupid. But=20
I DO go around telling people that BR is a better setting.
 
          &nbs=
p;           &nbsp=
;            =
            &=
nbsp;           &n=
bsp;           &nb=
sp;       =20
Ben

-----Original =
Message-----From:=20
brandes <brandes@gateway.net>To:=
=20
birthright@MPGN.COM =
<birthright@MPGN.COM>Dat=
e:=20
Thursday, February 18, 1999 5:06 PMSubject: =
[BIRTHRIGHT] - I=20
feel it's my duty
Hey subscribers:
The ceaseless attacks on =
Forgotten Realms=20
are really unnecessary.  The fact that you still play a =
campaign world=20
that the creators gave up on states well enough that you prefer this =

world.
It's my duty to defend FR, the =
most popular=20
campaign world, well, ever, against libel.  The main =
complaint: =20
it has too much magic.  Gee, let me think, that's the DM's =
decision=20
completely.  If magic gets out of hand in ANY campaign, there's =
only=20
one person to blame.  As a corollary to that statement, I had a =
worse=20
problem with magic in my Birthright campaign than I do in my current =
FR=20
campaign.  The problem raced from the fact that the major NPC's =
boast=20
some outrageous magic for a world that pretends to be =
low-magic.  In my=20
FR campaign, there is no real danger of my PC's deciding to go hunt =
down an=20
NPC, even an evil one, just to take his sword +5 (or =
whatever).  This=20
happened in BR.  Aramis, a 5th level thief, made quick work of =
Guilder=20
Kalien because he wanted the sword +1.  He broke into =
Kal-Saitharak=20
(sp?) and, at 7th level, took Bloodsilver and Prince Fhilaraene =
(sp?) from=20
the Gorgon's throne room, despite massive security.  What I'm =
saying is=20
that the BR designers just sort of threw everything out there.  =
Most=20
NPC's of ANY note have serious magic.
The other aspect of any =
arguments claiming=20
BR to be low-magic is that wizards can't do much as regents (true) =
and=20
aren't as dominant as FR wizards.  As to the second part,=20
bullfeathers.  Take a peek at sources like the Blood Enemies=20
sourcebook.  Now tell me that wizards aren't as dominant.  =
Hmmm .=20
. . Magian?  Gorgon?  White Witch?  Banshegh? =20
Rhoube?  Chimera?  Shall I continue?
I don't doubt that someone will respond to this =
post with=20
"Hey, shut up about FR, this is a BR mailing list."  =
I will=20
qualify my post by saying that I just want everyone else to stop =
trashing FR=20
in their posts.  That's really the only reason I am writing=20
this.
Balthasar
brandes@gateway.net=20


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[Jeff Dunnett]

I agree with what your saying. I myself have played in campaigns in
FR with more than one DM and let me tell you who the DM is makes a
world of difference. It's up to everyone to decide what worlds they
like and don't like. Most people on this list probably agree that
they like more then one world. They probably each like the world's
they do for a specific reason.

Jeff




- ---Ben wrote:
>
> I think your own bad experiences with BR are the result of the
same DM mistakes you point out here. You let a 7th level thief break
into stony's throne room and get away with it? Shame on you...
> I'm not a big fan of FR myself--only because I don't like the
feel of the setting.
> That's my choice, and, no, I don't go around telling people that
like it that they're stupid. But I DO go around telling people that BR
is a better setting.
>
>
Ben
> -----Original Message-----
> From: brandes
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 5:06 PM
> Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] - I feel it's my duty
>
>
> Hey subscribers:
> The ceaseless attacks on Forgotten Realms are really
unnecessary. The fact that you still play a campaign world that the
creators gave up on states well enough that you prefer this world.
> It's my duty to defend FR, the most popular campaign world,
well, ever, against libel. The main complaint: it has too much
magic. Gee, let me think, that's the DM's decision completely. If
magic gets out of hand in ANY campaign, there's only one person to
blame. As a corollary to that statement, I had a worse problem with
magic in my Birthright campaign than I do in my current FR campaign.
The problem raced from the fact that the major NPC's boast some
outrageous magic for a world that pretends to be low-magic. In my FR
campaign, there is no real danger of my PC's deciding to go hunt down
an NPC, even an evil one, just to take his sword +5 (or whatever).
This happened in BR. Aramis, a 5th level thief, made quick work of
Guilder Kalien because he wanted the sword +1. He broke into
Kal-Saitharak (sp?) and, at 7th level, took Bloodsilver and Prince
Fhilaraene (sp?) from the Gorgon's throne room, despite massive
security. What I'm saying is that the BR designers just sort of threw
everything out there. Most NPC's of ANY note have serious magic.
> The other aspect of any arguments claiming BR to be low-magic is
that wizards can't do much as regents (true) and aren't as dominant as
FR wizards. As to the second part, bullfeathers. Take a peek at
sources like the Blood Enemies sourcebook. Now tell me that wizards
aren't as dominant. Hmmm . . . Magian? Gorgon? White Witch?
Banshegh? Rhoube? Chimera? Shall I continue?
> I don't doubt that someone will respond to this post with "Hey,
shut up about FR, this is a BR mailing list." I will qualify my post
by saying that I just want everyone else to stop trashing FR in their
posts. That's really the only reason I am writing this.
> Balthasar
> brandes@gateway.net
>









Â*Â*Â* I
think your own bad experiences with BR are the result of the same DM
mistakes
you point out here. You let a 7th level thief break into stony's
throne room and
get away with it? Shame on you...
Â*Â*Â* I'm not a big fan of FR
myself--only because I don't like the feel of the
setting.
That's my
choice,
and, no, I don't go around telling people that like it that they're
stupid. But
I DO go around telling people that BR is a better setting.
Â*
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*

Ben

-----Original
Message-----From:
brandes To:
birthright@MPGN.COM
Date:
Thursday, February 18, 1999 5:06 PMSubject:
[BIRTHRIGHT] - I
feel it's my duty
Hey subscribers:
The ceaseless attacks on Forgotten
Realms
are really unnecessary.Â* The fact that you still play a campaign
world
that the creators gave up on states well enough that you prefer
this
world.
It's my duty to defend FR, the
most popular
campaign world, well, ever, against libel.Â* The main complaint:Â*
it has too much magic.Â* Gee, let me think, that's the DM's decision
completely.Â* If magic gets out of hand in ANY campaign, there's
only
one person to blame.Â* As a corollary to that statement, I had a
worse
problem with magic in my Birthright campaign than I do in my
current FR
campaign.Â* The problem raced from the fact that the major NPC's
boast
some outrageous magic for a world that pretends to be low-magic.Â*
In my
FR campaign, there is no real danger of my PC's deciding to go
hunt down an
NPC, even an evil one, just to take his sword +5 (or whatever).Â*
This
happened in BR.Â* Aramis, a 5th level thief, made quick work of
Guilder
Kalien because he wanted the sword +1.Â* He broke into Kal-Saitharak
(sp?) and, at 7th level, took Bloodsilver and Prince Fhilaraene
(sp?) from
the Gorgon's throne room, despite massive security.Â* What I'm
saying is
that the BR designers just sort of threw everything out there.Â*
Most
NPC's of ANY note have serious magic.
The other aspect of any arguments
claiming
BR to be low-magic is that wizards can't do much as regents (true)
and
aren't as dominant as FR wizards.Â* As to the second part,
bullfeathers.Â* Take a peek at sources like the Blood Enemies
sourcebook.Â* Now tell me that wizards aren't as dominant.Â* Hmmm .
. . Magian?Â* Gorgon?Â* White Witch?Â* Banshegh?Â*
Rhoube?Â* Chimera?Â* Shall I continue?
I don't doubt that someone will respond to this
post with
"Hey, shut up about FR, this is a BR mailing list."Â* I will
qualify my post by saying that I just want everyone else to stop
trashing FR
in their posts.Â* That's really the only reason I am writing
this.
Balthasar
brandes@gateway.net



__________________________________________________ _______
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

[Tim Nutting]

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The ceaseless attacks on Forgotten Realms are really unnecessary. =
The fact that you still play a campaign world that the creators gave up =
on states well enough that you prefer this world.
Yep. 100%. FR is fun, and has it's place, but to a mature and more =
worldly role-player, Cerilia has it all. Playing FR is like reading the =
Darksword Chronicles, or something. Everybody's got magic, even the =
farmers...
It's my duty to defend FR, the most popular campaign world, well, =
ever, against libel.

Choose "slander" instead. Libel is infringement on creative rights.
The main complaint: it has too much magic. Gee, let me think, =
that's the DM's decision completely.

And kill Elminster while your at it, too. :) In defense, tho, it's not =
all the DMs fault. Ever try playing with other FR DMs? Want to hear a =
DM whine? Change the world he DMs when you run it...

In Cerilia there are SOME very powerful mages. In Faerun, the are LOTS =
of VERY POWERFUL mages. No on in BR approaches 30th level... That the =
magic is concentrated in those who hold power is not outrageous or =
rediculous, but aren't you the least bit depressed when your players say =
"oh, another sword +2".

To me Baron Gavin Tael's Iron Guard is perhapst he most fearsome group =
of soldiers in all Anuire. They are tough, militant, aggressive, and =
brutal, and they get plate & mail for free. They don't hold a candle to =
a standard Purple Dragons, who average 3rd to 6th level with a 7th level =
captain and a wizard of 4th + traveling along for kicks. Further, each =
wizard is armed with two wands (don't those cost CON points to make? =
What's it cost to get folks to voluntarily sacrifice so much life =
energy?) Compare this to the awsome might of 10 men on of 1st to 2nd =
level led by a 4th level captain, and their "magic" is a load of =
crossbows. Yes, I can change FR all I want, but... I don't want to. I =
take out the Purple Dragons, I have to take out the very infrastructure =
of Azoun and Cormyr... I don't have time for that.
If magic gets out of hand in ANY campaign, there's only one person =
to blame. As a corollary to that statement, I had a worse problem with =
magic in my Birthright campaign than I do in my current FR campaign.

"Gee, let me think, that's the DM's decision completely."
The problem raced from the fact that the major NPC's boast some =
outrageous magic for a world that pretends to be low-magic. In my FR =
campaign, there is no real danger of my PC's deciding to go hunt down an =
NPC, even an evil one, just to take his sword +5 (or whatever). This =
happened in BR.

Why? And how does one's foe being Evil excuse a deed? Last I looked =
LG, CG, and LN did not use the ends to justify the means.
Aramis, a 5th level thief, made quick work of Guilder Kalien because =
he wanted the sword +1. He broke into Kal-Saitharak (sp?)=20
and, at 7th level, took Bloodsilver and Prince Fhilaraene (sp?) from =
the Gorgon's throne room, despite massive security.

Your idea of "massive security" and mine must differ. I guess your 7th =
level theif could walk into Elminster's study unscathed too, right? =
IMC, you don't get into Battlewaite without invitaion. If you do, it's =
through the catacombs, and they make Undermountain look like Disneyland. =
I outright murdered my last party of foolish 12th level+ who tried to =
find Halastar's Horde. If you don't want them to have it, kill them.
What I'm saying is that the BR designers just sort of threw =
everything out there.

I take serious issue with that kind of slander. A practiced political =
eye shows that to be entirely untrue. Every realm has an interaction =
with every other realm. If I may ask, just how does the Moonsea relate =
to Shadowdale, except via the Zhentarim?
Most NPC's of ANY note have serious magic.

As it should be. Power attracts power. And yet by the time a party =
reached 9th level under my FR game (using standard goodies and =
adventures) I had characters with more magic than any regent of Cerilia.
The other aspect of any arguments claiming BR to be low-magic is =
that wizards can't do much as regents (true) and aren't as dominant as =
FR wizards. As to the second part, bullfeathers. Take a peek at =
sources like the Blood Enemies sourcebook. Now tell me that wizards =
aren't as dominant. Hmmm . . . Magian? Gorgon? White Witch? =
Banshegh? Rhoube? Chimera? Shall I continue?

Halastair, Khelban, Elminster, Red Wizards, Simbul, Tessaril, =
Vangerdahast... . Okay... Tael, Swordwraith, Raenech, Diem, =
Avan, Tuornen, Boeruine, the Mhor, Dhoesone, Roesone, Aglondier (only =
3rd level!). Balance it out my friend. Compare the number of realms =
ruled by warriors and "action" types to the wizards. There is not a =
single nation where the ruling class is all wizards (ala Thay). =20

A short list of lands not ruled by wizards: Roesone, Aerenwe, Osoerde, =
Ghoere, Diemed, Endier, Avanil, Broesengae, Tuornen, Alamie, Mhoried, =
Elinie, Coeranys, Markazor, Cariele, Talinie, Dhoesone, Stjorkdvik, =
Rjuvik, Svinik, Halskapa, Jankaping, Hogunmark, Kvigmar, Kiergard, =
Baruk-Azhik....

In Eveningstar (Cormyr) Lord Tessaril Neverwinter helps her 7th level =
guardsmen keep the peace by using ESP and insuch and ivading the minds =
of newcomers to discover their intentions.... That waste of a mage =
would never happen in cerilia, there's too few of them as it is, and =
they can't figure out why magic dwindles (cut out the heart - i.e. the =
elvish lands), and the body (magic) dies"

Lastly, BE is a sourcebook about immortal creatures touched by the magic =
of a dying god. In a realm that boasts something of about 50 less gods, =
this is really an event.
I don't doubt that someone will respond to this post with "Hey, shut =
up about FR, this is a BR mailing list."

I'm sorry you think so little of us.
I will qualify my post by saying that I just want everyone else to =
stop trashing FR in their posts. That's really the only reason I'm =
writing this.

Obviously I do not hesitate to say that I prefer Cerilia to Faerun. Any =
world where I am able to create a rivalry between a 1st level priest =
henchman and a 0-level local healer, because the healer is jealous the =
other has been gifted with magic and she not, well, that's a world you =
keep. You see, such an event was plausible, there was no difficulty =
retaining suspension of disbielef, and that by sheer fact that the =
author's pen made that possible.

Due to it's cumbersuome nature and extremely unrealistic political =
structure, FR will continue to get the bum wrap. I'm sorry that the =
poor cousin gets put upon when compared to its superior, but...

Tim Nutting

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The ceaseless attacks on =
Forgotten=20
Realms are really unnecessary.  The fact that you still play a =
campaign=20
world that the creators gave up on states well enough that you =
prefer this=20
world.
Yep.  100%.  FR is =
fun, and has=20
it's place, but to a mature and more worldly role-player, Cerilia has it =

all.  Playing FR is like reading the Darksword Chronicles, or=20
something.  Everybody's got magic, even the =
farmers...

It's my duty to defend FR, =
the most=20
popular campaign world, well, ever, against =
libel.
 
Choose "slander" instead.  Libel is=20
infringement on creative rights.

  The main =
complaint:  it=20
has too much magic.  Gee, let me think, that's the DM's =
decision=20
completely. <snip>
 
And kill Elminster while your =
at it,=20
too.  :)  In defense, tho, it's not all the DMs fault.  =
Ever try=20
playing with other FR DMs?  Want to hear a DM whine?  Change =
the world=20
he DMs when you run it...
 
In Cerilia there are SOME very powerful mages.  =
In=20
Faerun, the are LOTS of VERY POWERFUL mages.  No on in BR =
approaches 30th=20
level...  That the magic is concentrated in those who hold power is =
not=20
outrageous or rediculous, but aren't you the least bit depressed when =
your=20
players say "oh, another sword +2".
 
To me Baron Gavin Tael's Iron Guard is perhapst he =
most=20
fearsome group of soldiers in all Anuire.  They are tough, =
militant,=20
aggressive, and brutal, and they get plate & mail for free.  =
They don't=20
hold a candle to a standard Purple Dragons, who average 3rd to =
6th=20
level with a 7th level captain and a wizard of 4th + traveling along for =

kicks.  Further, each wizard is armed with two wands =
(don't those=20
cost CON points to make?  What's it cost to get folks to =
voluntarily=20
sacrifice so much life energy?)  Compare this to the awsome might =
of 10 men=20
on of 1st to 2nd level led by a 4th level captain, and their =
"magic"=20
is a load of crossbows.  Yes, I can change FR all I want, but... I =
don't=20
want to.  I take out the Purple Dragons, I have to take out the =
very=20
infrastructure of Azoun and Cormyr...  I don't have time for=20
that.

  If magic gets out =
of hand in=20
ANY campaign, there's only one person to blame.  As a corollary =
to that=20
statement, I had a worse problem with magic in my Birthright =
campaign than I=20
do in my current FR campaign.
 
"Gee, let me think, that's the DM's decision=20
completely."

  The problem raced =
from the fact=20
that the major NPC's boast some outrageous magic for a world that =
pretends=20
to be low-magic.  In my FR campaign, there is no real danger of =
my PC's=20
deciding to go hunt down an NPC, even an evil one, just to take his =
sword +5=20
(or whatever).  This happened in BR.
 
Why?  And how does one's =
foe being=20
Evil excuse a deed?  Last I looked LG, CG, and LN did not use the =
ends to=20
justify the means.

Aramis, a 5th level thief, =
made quick=20
work of Guilder Kalien because he wanted the sword +1.  He =
broke into=20
Kal-Saitharak (sp?)
and, at 7th level, took =
Bloodsilver=20
and Prince Fhilaraene (sp?) from the Gorgon's throne room, despite =
massive=20
security.
 
Your idea of "massive =
security"=20
and mine must differ.  I guess your 7th level theif could walk into =

Elminster's study unscathed too, right?  IMC, you don't get into=20
Battlewaite without invitaion.  If you do, it's through the =
catacombs, and=20
they make Undermountain look like Disneyland.  I outright murdered =
my last=20
party of foolish 12th level+ who tried to find Halastar's Horde.  =
If you=20
don't want them to have it, kill them.

What I'm saying is that =
the BR=20
designers just sort of threw everything out =
there.
 
I take serious issue with that kind of =
slander.  A=20
practiced political eye shows that to be entirely untrue.  Every =
realm has=20
an interaction with every other realm.  If I may ask, just how does =
the=20
Moonsea relate to Shadowdale, except via the Zhentarim?

Most NPC's=20
of ANY note have serious magic.
 
As it should be.  Power =
attracts=20
power.  And yet by the time a party reached 9th level under my FR =
game=20
(using standard goodies and adventures) I had characters with more magic =
than=20
any regent of Cerilia.

The other aspect of any =
arguments=20
claiming BR to be low-magic is that wizards can't do much as regents =
(true)=20
and aren't as dominant as FR wizards.  As to the second part,=20
bullfeathers.  Take a peek at sources like the Blood Enemies=20
sourcebook.  Now tell me that wizards aren't as dominant.  =
Hmmm .=20
. . Magian?  Gorgon?  White Witch?  Banshegh? =20
Rhoube?  Chimera?  Shall I continue?
 
Halastair, Khelban, Elminster, =
Red=20
Wizards, Simbul, Tessaril, Vangerdahast...  <shrug>.  =
Okay...=20
Tael, Swordwraith, Raenech, Diem, Avan, Tuornen, Boeruine, the Mhor, =
Dhoesone,=20
Roesone, Aglondier (only 3rd level!).  Balance it out my =
friend. =20
Compare the number of realms ruled by warriors and "action" =
types to=20
the wizards.  There is not a single nation where the ruling class =
is all=20
wizards (ala Thay). 
 
A short list of lands =
not ruled=20
by wizards:  Roesone, Aerenwe, Osoerde, Ghoere, Diemed, Endier, =
Avanil,=20
Broesengae, Tuornen, Alamie, Mhoried, Elinie, Coeranys, Markazor, =
Cariele,=20
Talinie, Dhoesone, Stjorkdvik, Rjuvik, Svinik, Halskapa, Jankaping, =
Hogunmark,=20
Kvigmar, Kiergard, Baruk-Azhik....
 
In Eveningstar (Cormyr) Lord =
Tessaril=20
Neverwinter helps her 7th level guardsmen keep the peace by using ESP =
and insuch=20
and ivading the minds of newcomers to discover their =
intentions....  That=20
waste of a mage would never happen in cerilia, there's too few of them =
as it is,=20
and they can't figure out why magic dwindles (cut out the heart - i.e. =
the=20
elvish lands), and the body (magic) dies"
 
Lastly, BE is a sourcebook =
about immortal=20
creatures touched by the magic of a dying god.  In a realm that =
boasts=20
something of about 50 less gods, this is really an =
event.

I don't doubt that someone will respond to this =
post with=20
"Hey, shut up about FR, this is a BR mailing=20
list."
 
I'm sorry you think so little of=20
us.

I will qualify my post by saying that I just =
want everyone=20
else to stop trashing FR in their posts.  That's really the =
only reason=20
I'm writing this.
 
Obviously I do not hesitate to say that I prefer =
Cerilia to=20
Faerun.  Any world where I am able to create a rivalry between a =
1st level=20
priest henchman and a 0-level local healer, because the healer is =
jealous the=20
other has been gifted with magic and she not, well, that's a world you=20
keep.  You see, such an event was plausible, there was no =
difficulty=20
retaining suspension of disbielef, and that by sheer fact that the =
author's pen=20
made that possible.
 
Due to it's cumbersuome nature and extremely =
unrealistic=20
political structure, FR will continue to get the bum wrap.  I'm =
sorry that=20
the poor cousin gets put upon when compared to its superior, but...=20
<shrug>
 
Tim Nutting

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[Olesens]

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I REALLY do not like your suggestion of a Thayan-type culture in Djapar
or Aduria. The only true wizards en masse exist within elven lands. An
even then they tend to focus more on druidic type things over
Invokations and stuff like that. IMO, Cerilia has the highest
concentration of human wizards (since Djapar had no one at Diesmaar and
very few Adurians survived). How the hell would you end up with a who
has a whole ruling class based on wizards when only .99 % of the human
population has even the talent (INT & Bloodline) to become true mages.
Now assuming that only 1% of them choose to be wizards, that is .099% of
the population. How do you come up with enough of them for a Thayan-type
culture?

> The Realms are more fully explored by far. Thayan culture,
> focused so greatly around wizardly might, does not fit with
> Anuire/Cormyr, Rjurik/Rashemen-Dales-Savage North, Vos/Great
> Grey Land of Thar, Khinasi/Calimshan, or
> Brechtur/Sembia-Waterdeep-Amn. Perhaps if the BR designers
> had received their justly-deserved funding, Djapar or Aduria
> might have included such a land.
>

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I REALLY do not like your suggestion of a Thayan-type culture in Djapar
or Aduria.  The only true wizards en masse exist within elven lands. 
An even then they tend to focus more on druidic type things over Invokations
and stuff like that.  IMO, Cerilia has the highest concentration of
human wizards (since Djapar had no one at Diesmaar and very few Adurians
survived).  How the hell would you end up with a who has a whole ruling
class based on wizards when only .99 % of the human population has even
the talent (INT & Bloodline) to become true mages.  Now assuming
that only 1% of them choose to be wizards, that is .099% of the population.
How do you come up with enough of them for a Thayan-type culture?

The
Realms are more fully explored by far.  Thayan culture, focused so
greatly around wizardly might, does not fit with Anuire/Cormyr, Rjurik/Rashemen-Dales-Savage
North, Vos/Great Grey Land of Thar, Khinasi/Calimshan, or Brechtur/Sembia-Waterdeep-Amn. 
Perhaps if the BR designers had received their justly-deserved funding,
Djapar or Aduria might have included such a land.





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[brandes]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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charset="iso-8859-1"
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I REALLY do not like your suggestion of a Thayan-type culture in =
Djapar or Aduria. The only true wizards en masse exist within elven =
lands. An even then they tend to focus more on druidic type things over =
Invokations and stuff like that. IMO, Cerilia has the highest =
concentration of human wizards (since Djapar had no one at Diesmaar and =
very few Adurians survived). How the hell would you end up with a who =
has a whole ruling class based on wizards when only .99 % of the human =
population has even the talent (INT & Bloodline) to become true mages. =
Now assuming that only 1% of them choose to be wizards, that is .099% of =
the population. How do you come up with enough of them for a Thayan-type =
culture?=20
The Realms are more fully explored by far. Thayan culture, =
focused so greatly around wizardly might, does not fit with =
Anuire/Cormyr, Rjurik/Rashemen-Dales-Savage North, Vos/Great Grey Land =
of Thar, Khinasi/Calimshan, or Brechtur/Sembia-Waterdeep-Amn. Perhaps =
if the BR designers had received their justly-deserved funding, Djapar =
or Aduria might have included such a land.
I was under the impression that Djapar and Aduria were vast lands =
unexplored for the past 1500 years and more. Why should the people of =
those lands not have discovered their own way to channel the True =
Source? (Yeah, I'm a Robert Jordan addict. Sorry.) Not so long ago on =
this message board, it was suggested that some less-than-moral people of =
Cerilia might have turned to daemon-craft/witchcraft/Even Darker =
Sorceries to substitute for their lack of the Blood. I happen to really =
like that idea.
Also, wizard-kings (think Tolkien especially) are a staple of =
fantasy. Given the right circumstances, wizards can (most WILL) rise to =
great power and dominance. What if they get a little itsy bit =
ambitious, and crave political might as well as sorcerous? They =
certainly have the means to take control.
If you like, I can give numerous hypotheticals as to how a wizard of =
less-than-ethical bent might seize and hold power. (Hint: Charm, =
Domination, and Mass Charm and delightful spells for the power-mad.)
Brandes

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charset="iso-8859-1"
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I=20
REALLY do not like your suggestion of a Thayan-type culture in =
Djapar or=20
Aduria.  The only true wizards en masse exist within elven =
lands. =20
An even then they tend to focus more on druidic type things over =
Invokations=20
and stuff like that.  IMO, Cerilia has the highest =
concentration of=20
human wizards (since Djapar had no one at Diesmaar and very few =
Adurians=20
survived).  How the hell would you end up with a who has a =
whole ruling=20
class based on wizards when only .99 % of the human population has =
even the=20
talent (INT & Bloodline) to become true mages.  Now =
assuming that=20
only 1% of them choose to be wizards, that is .099% of the =
population. How=20
do you come up with enough of them for a Thayan-type culture?=20

The Realms are more fully explored by far.  =
Thayan=20
culture, focused so greatly around wizardly might, does not =
fit with=20
Anuire/Cormyr, Rjurik/Rashemen-Dales-Savage North, Vos/Great =
Grey=20
Land of Thar, Khinasi/Calimshan, or=20
Brechtur/Sembia-Waterdeep-Amn.  Perhaps if the BR =
designers had=20
received their justly-deserved funding, Djapar or Aduria =
might have=20
included such a land.
I was under the impression that Djapar and =
Aduria were=20
vast lands unexplored for the past 1500 years and more.  Why =
should the=20
people of those lands not have discovered their own way to channel =
the True=20
Source?  (Yeah, I'm a Robert Jordan addict.  Sorry.)  =
Not so=20
long ago on this message board, it was suggested that some =
less-than-moral=20
people of Cerilia might have turned to daemon-craft/witchcraft/Even =
Darker=20
Sorceries to substitute for their lack of the Blood.  I happen =
to=20
really like that idea.
Also, wizard-kings (think Tolkien especially) =
are a staple=20
of fantasy.  Given the right circumstances, wizards can (most =
WILL)=20
rise to great power and dominance.  What if they get a little =
itsy bit=20
ambitious, and crave political might as well as sorcerous?  =
They=20
certainly have the means to take control.
If you like, I can give numerous hypotheticals =
as to how a=20
wizard of less-than-ethical bent might seize and hold power. (Hint: =
Charm,=20
Domination, and Mass Charm and delightful spells for the=20
power-mad.)
Brandes

- ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BE5D22.690A3360--

[Jeff Dunnett]

I think you got the number of god cerialla has less then what FR has.
I think that number is somewhere around 150. LOL




- ---Tim Nutting wrote:
>
> The ceaseless attacks on Forgotten Realms are really
unnecessary. The fact that you still play a campaign world that the
creators gave up on states well enough that you prefer this world.
> Yep. 100%. FR is fun, and has it's place, but to a mature and more
worldly role-player, Cerilia has it all. Playing FR is like reading
the Darksword Chronicles, or something. Everybody's got magic, even
the farmers...
> It's my duty to defend FR, the most popular campaign world,
well, ever, against libel.
>
> Choose "slander" instead. Libel is infringement on creative rights.
> The main complaint: it has too much magic. Gee, let me
think, that's the DM's decision completely.
>
> And kill Elminster while your at it, too. :) In defense, tho, it's
not all the DMs fault. Ever try playing with other FR DMs? Want to
hear a DM whine? Change the world he DMs when you run it...
>
> In Cerilia there are SOME very powerful mages. In Faerun, the are
LOTS of VERY POWERFUL mages. No on in BR approaches 30th level...
That the magic is concentrated in those who hold power is not
outrageous or rediculous, but aren't you the least bit depressed when
your players say "oh, another sword +2".
>
> To me Baron Gavin Tael's Iron Guard is perhapst he most fearsome
group of soldiers in all Anuire. They are tough, militant,
aggressive, and brutal, and they get plate & mail for free. They
don't hold a candle to a standard Purple Dragons, who average 3rd to
6th level with a 7th level captain and a wizard of 4th + traveling
along for kicks. Further, each wizard is armed with two wands (don't
those cost CON points to make? What's it cost to get folks to
voluntarily sacrifice so much life energy?) Compare this to the
awsome might of 10 men on of 1st to 2nd level led by a 4th level
captain, and their "magic" is a load of crossbows. Yes, I can change
FR all I want, but... I don't want to. I take out the Purple Dragons,
I have to take out the very infrastructure of Azoun and Cormyr... I
don't have time for that.
> If magic gets out of hand in ANY campaign, there's only one
person to blame. As a corollary to that statement, I had a worse
problem with magic in my Birthright campaign than I do in my current
FR campaign.
>
> "Gee, let me think, that's the DM's decision completely."
> The problem raced from the fact that the major NPC's boast
some outrageous magic for a world that pretends to be low-magic. In
my FR campaign, there is no real danger of my PC's deciding to go hunt
down an NPC, even an evil one, just to take his sword +5 (or
whatever). This happened in BR.
>
> Why? And how does one's foe being Evil excuse a deed? Last I
looked LG, CG, and LN did not use the ends to justify the means.
> Aramis, a 5th level thief, made quick work of Guilder Kalien
because he wanted the sword +1. He broke into Kal-Saitharak (sp?)
> and, at 7th level, took Bloodsilver and Prince Fhilaraene (sp?)
from the Gorgon's throne room, despite massive security.
>
> Your idea of "massive security" and mine must differ. I guess your
7th level theif could walk into Elminster's study unscathed too,
right? IMC, you don't get into Battlewaite without invitaion. If you
do, it's through the catacombs, and they make Undermountain look like
Disneyland. I outright murdered my last party of foolish 12th level+
who tried to find Halastar's Horde. If you don't want them to have
it, kill them.
> What I'm saying is that the BR designers just sort of threw
everything out there.
>
> I take serious issue with that kind of slander. A practiced
political eye shows that to be entirely untrue. Every realm has an
interaction with every other realm. If I may ask, just how does the
Moonsea relate to Shadowdale, except via the Zhentarim?
> Most NPC's of ANY note have serious magic.
>
> As it should be. Power attracts power. And yet by the time a party
reached 9th level under my FR game (using standard goodies and
adventures) I had characters with more magic than any regent of Cerilia.
> The other aspect of any arguments claiming BR to be low-magic is
that wizards can't do much as regents (true) and aren't as dominant as
FR wizards. As to the second part, bullfeathers. Take a peek at
sources like the Blood Enemies sourcebook. Now tell me that wizards
aren't as dominant. Hmmm . . . Magian? Gorgon? White Witch?
Banshegh? Rhoube? Chimera? Shall I continue?
>
> Halastair, Khelban, Elminster, Red Wizards, Simbul, Tessaril,
Vangerdahast... . Okay... Tael, Swordwraith, Raenech, Diem,
Avan, Tuornen, Boeruine, the Mhor, Dhoesone, Roesone, Aglondier (only
3rd level!). Balance it out my friend. Compare the number of realms
ruled by warriors and "action" types to the wizards. There is not a
single nation where the ruling class is all wizards (ala Thay).
>
> A short list of lands not ruled by wizards: Roesone, Aerenwe,
Osoerde, Ghoere, Diemed, Endier, Avanil, Broesengae, Tuornen, Alamie,
Mhoried, Elinie, Coeranys, Markazor, Cariele, Talinie, Dhoesone,
Stjorkdvik, Rjuvik, Svinik, Halskapa, Jankaping, Hogunmark, Kvigmar,
Kiergard, Baruk-Azhik....
>
> In Eveningstar (Cormyr) Lord Tessaril Neverwinter helps her 7th
level guardsmen keep the peace by using ESP and insuch and ivading the
minds of newcomers to discover their intentions.... That waste of a
mage would never happen in cerilia, there's too few of them as it is,
and they can't figure out why magic dwindles (cut out the heart - i.e.
the elvish lands), and the body (magic) dies"
>
> Lastly, BE is a sourcebook about immortal creatures touched by the
magic of a dying god. In a realm that boasts something of about 50
less gods, this is really an event.
> I don't doubt that someone will respond to this post with "Hey,
shut up about FR, this is a BR mailing list."
>
> I'm sorry you think so little of us.
> I will qualify my post by saying that I just want everyone else
to stop trashing FR in their posts. That's really the only reason I'm
writing this.
>
> Obviously I do not hesitate to say that I prefer Cerilia to Faerun.
Any world where I am able to create a rivalry between a 1st level
priest henchman and a 0-level local healer, because the healer is
jealous the other has been gifted with magic and she not, well, that's
a world you keep. You see, such an event was plausible, there was no
difficulty retaining suspension of disbielef, and that by sheer fact
that the author's pen made that possible.
>
> Due to it's cumbersuome nature and extremely unrealistic political
structure, FR will continue to get the bum wrap. I'm sorry that the
poor cousin gets put upon when compared to its superior, but...
>
> Tim Nutting
>










The ceaseless attacks on
Forgotten
Realms are really unnecessary.Â* The fact that you still play a
campaign
world that the creators gave up on states well enough that you
prefer this
world.
Yep.Â* 100%.Â* FR is fun, and has
it's place, but to a mature and more worldly role-player, Cerilia has
it
all.Â* Playing FR is like reading the Darksword Chronicles, or
something.Â* Everybody's got magic, even the
farmers...

It's my duty to defend FR,
the most
popular campaign world, well, ever, against
libel.
Â*
Choose "slander" instead.Â* Libel is
infringement on creative rights.

Â* The main complaint:Â* it
has too much magic.Â* Gee, let me think, that's the DM's decision
completely.
Â*
And kill Elminster while your at
it,
too.Â* :)Â* In defense, tho, it's not all the DMs fault.Â* Ever try
playing with other FR DMs?Â* Want to hear a DM whine?Â* Change the world
he DMs when you run it...
Â*
In Cerilia there are SOME very powerful mages.Â* In
Faerun, the are LOTS of VERY POWERFUL mages.Â* No on in BR approaches
30th
level...Â* That the magic is concentrated in those who hold power is not
outrageous or rediculous, but aren't you the least bit depressed when
your
players say "oh, another sword +2".
Â*
To me Baron Gavin Tael's Iron Guard is perhapst he
most
fearsome group of soldiers in all Anuire.Â* They are tough, militant,
aggressive, and brutal, and they get plate & mail for free.Â* They don't
hold a candle to a standard Purple Dragons, who average 3rd
to 6th
level with a 7th level captain and a wizard of 4th + traveling along
for
kicks.Â* Further, each wizard is armed with two wands (don't
those
cost CON points to make?Â* What's it cost to get folks to voluntarily
sacrifice so much life energy?)Â* Compare this to the awsome might of
10 men
on of 1st to 2nd level led by a 4th level captain, and their "magic"
is a load of crossbows.Â* Yes, I can change FR all I want, but... I
don't
want to.Â* I take out the Purple Dragons, I have to take out the very
infrastructure of Azoun and Cormyr...Â* I don't have time for
that.

Â* If magic gets out of hand
in
ANY campaign, there's only one person to blame.Â* As a corollary to
that
statement, I had a worse problem with magic in my Birthright
campaign than I
do in my current FR campaign.
Â*
"Gee, let me think, that's the DM's decision
completely."

Â* The problem raced from the
fact
that the major NPC's boast some outrageous magic for a world that
pretends
to be low-magic.Â* In my FR campaign, there is no real danger of my
PC's
deciding to go hunt down an NPC, even an evil one, just to take
his sword +5
(or whatever).Â* This happened in BR.
Â*
Why?Â* And how does one's foe
being
Evil excuse a deed?Â* Last I looked LG, CG, and LN did not use the ends
to
justify the means.

Aramis, a 5th level thief,
made quick
work of Guilder Kalien because he wanted the sword +1.Â* He broke
into
Kal-Saitharak (sp?)
and, at 7th level, took
Bloodsilver
and Prince Fhilaraene (sp?) from the Gorgon's throne room, despite
massive
security.
Â*
Your idea of "massive security"
and mine must differ.Â* I guess your 7th level theif could walk into
Elminster's study unscathed too, right?Â* IMC, you don't get into
Battlewaite without invitaion.Â* If you do, it's through the catacombs,
and
they make Undermountain look like Disneyland.Â* I outright murdered my
last
party of foolish 12th level+ who tried to find Halastar's Horde.Â* If
you
don't want them to have it, kill them.

What I'm saying is that the
BR
designers just sort of threw everything out
there.
Â*
I take serious issue with that kind of slander.Â* A
practiced political eye shows that to be entirely untrue.Â* Every realm
has
an interaction with every other realm.Â* If I may ask, just how does the
Moonsea relate to Shadowdale, except via the Zhentarim?

Most NPC's
of ANY note have serious magic.
Â*
As it should be.Â* Power attracts
power.Â* And yet by the time a party reached 9th level under my FR game
(using standard goodies and adventures) I had characters with more
magic than
any regent of Cerilia.

The other aspect of any
arguments
claiming BR to be low-magic is that wizards can't do much as
regents (true)
and aren't as dominant as FR wizards.Â* As to the second part,
bullfeathers.Â* Take a peek at sources like the Blood Enemies
sourcebook.Â* Now tell me that wizards aren't as dominant.Â* Hmmm .
. . Magian?Â* Gorgon?Â* White Witch?Â* Banshegh?Â*
Rhoube?Â* Chimera?Â* Shall I continue?
Â*
Halastair, Khelban, Elminster,
Red
Wizards, Simbul, Tessaril, Vangerdahast...Â* .Â* Okay...
Tael, Swordwraith, Raenech, Diem, Avan, Tuornen, Boeruine, the Mhor,
Dhoesone,
Roesone, Aglondier (only 3rd level!).Â* Balance it out my friend.Â*
Compare the number of realms ruled by warriors and "action" types to
the wizards.Â* There is not a single nation where the ruling class is
all
wizards (ala Thay).Â*
Â*
A short list of lands
not ruled
by wizards:Â* Roesone, Aerenwe, Osoerde, Ghoere, Diemed, Endier, Avanil,
Broesengae, Tuornen, Alamie, Mhoried, Elinie, Coeranys, Markazor,
Cariele,
Talinie, Dhoesone, Stjorkdvik, Rjuvik, Svinik, Halskapa, Jankaping,
Hogunmark,
Kvigmar, Kiergard, Baruk-Azhik....
Â*
In Eveningstar (Cormyr) Lord Tessaril
Neverwinter helps her 7th level guardsmen keep the peace by using ESP
and insuch
and ivading the minds of newcomers to discover their intentions....Â*
That
waste of a mage would never happen in cerilia, there's too few of them
as it is,
and they can't figure out why magic dwindles (cut out the heart - i.e.
the
elvish lands), and the body (magic) dies"
Â*
Lastly, BE is a sourcebook about
immortal
creatures touched by the magic of a dying god.Â* In a realm that boasts
something of about 50 less gods, this is really an
event.

I don't doubt that someone will respond to this
post with
"Hey, shut up about FR, this is a BR mailing
list."
Â*
I'm sorry you think so little of
us.

I will qualify my post by saying that I just
want everyone
else to stop trashing FR in their posts.Â* That's really the only
reason
I'm writing this.
Â*
Obviously I do not hesitate to say that I prefer
Cerilia to
Faerun.Â* Any world where I am able to create a rivalry between a 1st
level
priest henchman and a 0-level local healer, because the healer is
jealous the
other has been gifted with magic and she not, well, that's a world you
keep.Â* You see, such an event was plausible, there was no difficulty
retaining suspension of disbielef, and that by sheer fact that the
author's pen
made that possible.
Â*
Due to it's cumbersuome nature and extremely
unrealistic
political structure, FR will continue to get the bum wrap.Â* I'm sorry
that
the poor cousin gets put upon when compared to its superior, but...

Â*
Tim Nutting


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