Even MORE about bloodlines!

[Tommy Ashton]

At 05:55 PM 3/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Cheers Boy wrote:
>
>> I have always held the belief that the divine essense of the Gods was,
>> and still is, greater than anything mundane or mortal in the BR world.
>> This is why I feel that bloodlines should, in part, dictate the
>> personality of the scion who possesses it. A person should have to
>> *fight* the natural inclinations of their bloodline. Maybe, perhaps,
>> what I mean to say is that bloodlines are really just a small ounce of
>> the total PERSONALITY of the dead god to whom it belonged to. The truth
>> is, IMO bloodlines should *control* the character, and not the other way
>> around.
>
I don't know if I like this (though I really liked your first post). I am
not a planescaper so if I am wrong on anything please correct me. If a
power is destroyed as in the past, and a new power take over his portfolio
he doesn't get their personality with it, just the power. It might work a
little better for the bloke if he has a parallel alignment as the power had
(I just said this here as it seems that the more evil Azrai bloodline
holders have access to much greater power for the first part), but
otherwise you just get the power.

T

[Jim Cooper]

Marky Boy wrote:
> Nice atmospheric additions to the game, Darren. I like them.<

Thanks! :)

> This gives me a reason to role-play the "devil-on-the-shoulder" voice of temptation that I use when bloodtheft occurs on an awnshegh or other scion of Azrai.<

Exactly. And more importantly, the feeling that bloodtheft, no matter
who you are, is no walk in the park. My players (I felt) were getting a
little too nonchalant with their bloodhunger. I feel that this now
gives meaning to the abhorrence to the act of stealing the divine
essense of a scion. Even evil nasty dudes should think twice about
committing bloodtheft (especially if they are evil PC characters, like
mine), since its just not all sweet bloodpower; they have to *suffer*
(as evil beings should) for their power. Moreover, I felt that similiar
reactions should occur during even a 'simple' investiture/designation
ceremony. More and more I am leaning to the idea that divine essense
should be a visible and tangible reality in the BR world. The current
rules didn't address this aspect of BR to my satisfaction - so I did
something about it! :) Also, see below.

> Any idea how long the effects should last? This could be either a 50:50 chance, or perhaps weighted by the relative strengths of the two bloodlines. Additional bonuses or penalties can be assessed based on the behavior of the character. This might help explain why bloodtheft of awnsheghlein often leads to the slayer becoming awnshegh him/herself. If they get a big enough dose of Azrai's blood it becomes harder and harder to fight down.<

Exactly. *Especially* for the absorbtion of Azrai's blood! Honestly?
Well, I had envisioned it being just a few hours at best - mostly
because I took the assumption that bloodtheft really only garners about
1-10% of the dying scion's actual total amount of bloodpower, the rest
is absorbed by Aebrynis. (Thats in part how I explain "The Land's
Choice" rule to my satisfaction). And thus, by extension, at most only
a tenth of the foreign bloodpower is temporarily* (see below) 'diluting'
the native blood of the recipient, so it shouldn't 'overrule' the native
essense for very long.

But I really left that part up to you DMs out there. Since most
bloodtheft only nets the recipient 1 or 2 pts at most, make it last as
long as you like. Indeed, I don't see why it shouldn't last for a very
long time.

And this leads me to my next offering re: bloodlines:

I have always held the belief that the divine essense of the Gods was,
and still is, greater than anything mundane or mortal in the BR world.
This is why I feel that bloodlines should, in part, dictate the
personality of the scion who possesses it. A person should have to
*fight* the natural inclinations of their bloodline. Maybe, perhaps,
what I mean to say is that bloodlines are really just a small ounce of
the total PERSONALITY of the dead god to whom it belonged to. The truth
is, IMO bloodlines should *control* the character, and not the other way
around.

You possess the bloodline of Anduiras? Very few beings ought to be evil
if they have His essense coursing through their veins. Indeed, these
scions should feel the *need* to smite evil, should feel the *desire* to
stand up and lead their loved ones, and *inherently* possess an
extraordinary sense of right and wrong.

Possess the personality of Masela? Watch out! This person - right from
day one - will be a Holy Terror, a veritable powder-keg of emotions. As
a baby, they will constantly be crying and cranky, right through ranging
to incredibly happy and making all those cute baby faces and laughter
(in fact the baby's emotions probably change from one minute to the
next!). Then comes the "terrible twos". Not to mention the stress
parents will experience when they reach puberty ... Parents of a child
of Masela deserve kingdoms and metals if they survive the childhood! :)
This is why Cuiraecen is the way he is, and is why he is the God of
Storms - half of his essense comes from His Mother's spirit!!! Yikes!
Unfortunately, players will be players, and everyone plays this game
differently, so its really up to the players to roleplay this aspect in
the game.

In so saying, though, I don't mean to imply that any one particular
godly essense is stronger than another (with the possible exception of
Azrai's blood. Note, however, I feel that even here Azrai's blood
should not be considered *stronger* per se, but that its simply more
invasive in a scion's personality. Human beings being what they are, I
think its simply a matter that Azrai's blood gives them the illusion
that they have taken "the quick and easy path" to power. In reality,
all these illusions serve to do is bring out the scion's 'natural' form
and tendancies as quickly as possible). Thus, one bloodline will not
overpower another if they happen to come into contact. Two scions with
the Divine Aura ability for instance, but from two different
derivations, will not cancel each other out, nor even suppress the other
- - but will function according to the strength within the scion. On this
I think the rules are clear.

But herein lies the problem. Are these divine essenses interchangeable,
or (whats the word? ...) 'intermixable'?!? What really happens when a
bloodtheft occurs, or when a scion passes on their bloodline to another?
I have always assumed (because I think the assumption is there in the
books) that bloodlines are simply just a universal energy source that
simply comes from a divine source. Do the rest of you get this
impression?

But I don't like this idea. It doesn't do the BR idea justice. I
cannot, even for one instant, make myself believe that if the blood of
Anduiras was absorbed by an awnsheghlien that the two would co-exist
peaceably. Or vice versa. I can almost see the bloodlines as being
sentient, in a way (almost). What if, by accident, a noble scion of
Anduiras accidently committed bloodtheft on a latent awnsheghlien?
Would the noble scion just suck it up and say: "Oh well, just more power
for me!" NAY - I cannot believe this! This is in part why I posted
reactions of the scions to the blood.

But I'm not saying that bloodlines would repel each other either. No,
our poor scions have *no choice* if they happen to absorb a differing
essense. But they *do* have to live with the consequences. And because
of this, I propose that differing bloodlines are NOT interchangable, or
'intermixable' if you prefer. Instead, differing bloodlines will
co-exist within the unfortunate victim, and the scion must live with the
constant personality conflicts that rage within them until the parent
blood essense completely dominates and destroys the 'invading'
personality. Then, if you like, the result is that the parent essense
becomes stronger for the struggle (and thus explains the increase of 1
or 2 points in the bloodstrength of the scion). Or, perhaps, the weaker
bloodline is eventually 'forced back out' to be absorbed by Aebrynis and
the parent strength becomes more forceful (stronger). Hey brainstorm:
or maybe even the 1 or 2 point bloodline is forced out and 'jumps' into
another scion/commoner if nearby and in tune with the essense?!?)

Now before all you diehard fellow BR fans (like me! :D) get all hot and
bothered about adding even more detail to the BR system, I simply mean
this to be a roleplaying tool. I'm not suggesting to keep track of
differing strengths of the various bloodlines within a scion. What I am
suggesting is that players and DMs are now afforded the opportunity to
roleplay their characters with more depth of personality. Moreover, it
gives a roleplaying opportunity to perhaps allow a good aligned future
awnsheghlien a way out of their predicament. Perhaps, eventually, a
scion *could* find a way to suppress a blood derivation in themselves?
That is certainly a worthy adventure in and of itself! Perhaps, as Mark
suggested, 'allergic' reactions to differing bloodlines can extend into
weeks, months, years, or even generations!

Now, perhaps, the reason the Gorgon has not absorbed the Roele bloodline
is not because he can't find it or release it (but he makes everyone
else believe he can't take it), but that its the one thing the Gorgon is
afraid of: that in so doing, he will become 'corrupted' by the blood of
Anduiras (you have to admit - thats A LOT of goodness for even the
Gorgon to suck up).

Gives new meaning to the reason for keeping familial bloodlines 'pure'
in the aristocractic scion noble families. Avan marry into a Diem line?
Not very likely, if there is any chance that there are other Anduiras
suitors available.

Gives new meaning to the saying that 'evil feeds upon itself' - because
the awnsheghlien cannot stand absorbing and diluting their bloodlines
with all those other 'weak ones' (but in reality, it hurts too much to
attempt very often. Unfortunately, they can't help it - their own
bloodlines DEMAND that they 'eat' the blood essense of the other gods.
Awnsheghlien are forever doomed to continue to prey on unsuspecting
scions, and gives a reason for why all those wandering horrors are
insane).

Now, only the strength of will in a scion or awnsheghlien allows them to
maintain their 'parent' (or even their own, mortal) personality with any
semblence of control. Perhaps now players will think twice about
stickin' every scion through the heart with glee.

What do you all think?

Cheers,
Me

[Olesens]

Cheers Boy wrote:

> I have always held the belief that the divine essense of the Gods was,
> and still is, greater than anything mundane or mortal in the BR world.
> This is why I feel that bloodlines should, in part, dictate the
> personality of the scion who possesses it. A person should have to
> *fight* the natural inclinations of their bloodline. Maybe, perhaps,
> what I mean to say is that bloodlines are really just a small ounce of
> the total PERSONALITY of the dead god to whom it belonged to. The truth
> is, IMO bloodlines should *control* the character, and not the other way
> around.

Well as a player I wouldn't want my bloodline dicating what I do, but since most scions will have thier bloodline from birth, thier personality will mold to thier bloodline. So a grown scion who has had that derivination all his life has his personal feelings and bloodline urging as one. But those who change derivinations or become blooded in mid-life have a harder time adjusting.

[Jim Cooper]

Tommy Ashton wrote:
It might work a little better for the bloke if he has a parallel
alignment as the power had (I just said this here as it seems that the
more evil Azrai bloodline holders have access to much greater power for
the first part), but otherwise you just get the power.

I've never read anything Planescape either, and perhaps my "personality"
idea was a little misleading? But what I was aiming at was that the
power that makes up bloodlines is more than just raw divine power - it
was the very essense of the gods, the whole, the stuff that made up the
being that was (----).

Thus when Haelyn, for instance, absorbed a goodly portion *of* Anduiras,
he was not only taking his god essense, but all (or most of) his
thoughts, and memories, and personality traits with it. Thus, the Old
Gods didn't just cease to exist - they gave up *themselves* to those
that best represented them, in the hopes that these mortals could carry
on their quest to obliterate the evil that was Azrai and that is his
legacy. This the Cerilians call 'bloodpower' (at least thats what I'm
trying to get at). Scions carry a little bit of the soul, if you will,
of the Old Gods inside them.

Moreover, even this little bit is overwhelming to a 'mere' mortal
personality, in a manner of speaking; its hard for a scion to suppress
this divine influence. A corollary example would be to say that a
regent could easily decided to stop garnering RPs for one turn.
Obviously, this is absurd, and so should the same consideration be given
to the personality of the bloodline possessed. That is what I am
arguing about. Indeed, since this is what defines a scion, few scions I
doubt would WANT to suppress their divine personalities - its as natural
to them as their own (really, the two should be synonymous). Most
scions possessing Anduiras' blood wouldn't even DREAM of *not* leading a
group, or not be chivalrous - it would be like asking them to chop off
their limbs with a spoon. So, too, with the blood of Azrai - they
*can't help* to scheme and connive, to thirst for power. And if there
are two blood essenses within a being, there will be conflict in certain
cases IMO.

Indeed, I imagined Anduiras and the other gods exemplified the traits
and passions each one now respresents, so that this 'purity' is what
defined the Gods apart from their divinity. This 'purity of
personality' was passed on to their champions and loyal believers and
THIS is what makes a bloodline (the strength of which depends on just
how much of the 'bit of soul' you possess of a god(ess)). Thus, for
example, if Haelyn had absorbed ALL of Anduiras' bloodpower, we would
have just had a copy of Anduiras (since I assume Haelyn was just the
mortal mirror image of Anduiras, no?) with a new name.

Yes? No? Flames? Adulations of praise and worship?

:D

Cheers,
Me

[Jim Cooper]

Olesens wrote:
> Well as a player I wouldn't want my bloodline dicating what I do,<

That's part of the problem! :) But the game can't do too much about
that. :( I guess we're all just power-gaming munchkins at heart! :D
(I know, I suffer from this affliction too). :)

but since most scions will have thier bloodline from birth, thier
personality will mold to thier bloodline. So a grown scion who has had
that derivination all his life has his personal feelings and bloodline
urging as one. But those who change derivinations or become blooded in
mid-life have a harder time adjusting.

Exactly, to both points. Indeed, from birth they ought to by one and
the same.

But, as a BR player, would you be willing to role-play out this
personality-dependant bloodline system properly? (I guess that was the
unspoken question I was implying in my post) Or is everyone in favour
of keeping things the way they are?

Just 'testing the waters' so to speak before I introduce this concept to
my players ...

Cheers,
Me

[Bob Cauthron]

I actually like what you are introducing here. This is more akin to
roleplaying with depth and feeling, three-dimensional rather than two. I
admit I have never thought about what you posted. Now that you have brought
it forth, it makes me think about birthright in another light.
For me, the proposal, in theory, is sound. How it plays, though, is an
unknown. This would seem to require a fair amount of skill and effort from
both the gm and the player(s). Because it could get out of hand. Still,
initially, this would look to be worth the effort. Would you have any
objections to me using this? I would like to give it a try.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Cooper
To: birthright@mpgn.com
Date: Monday, March 22, 1999 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Even MORE about bloodlines!


>Olesens wrote:
>> Well as a player I wouldn't want my bloodline dicating what I do,<
>
>That's part of the problem! :) But the game can't do too much about
>that. :( I guess we're all just power-gaming munchkins at heart! :D
>(I know, I suffer from this affliction too). :)
>
> but since most scions will have thier bloodline from birth, thier
>personality will mold to thier bloodline. So a grown scion who has had
>that derivination all his life has his personal feelings and bloodline
>urging as one. But those who change derivinations or become blooded in
>mid-life have a harder time adjusting.
>
>Exactly, to both points. Indeed, from birth they ought to by one and
>the same.
>
>But, as a BR player, would you be willing to role-play out this
>personality-dependant bloodline system properly? (I guess that was the
>unspoken question I was implying in my post) Or is everyone in favour
>of keeping things the way they are?
>
>Just 'testing the waters' so to speak before I introduce this concept to
>my players ...
>
>Cheers,
>Me
>
>************************************************** *************************
>>'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

OK, now I think you've gone and overplayed your case. I don't really see
the bloodlines as personalities as much as just simply natural tendencies
(or I suppose supernatural tendencies). Sort of like the way you could be
born with a chemical imbalance which makes you prone to alcoholism. It
doesn't necessarily make you an alcoholic, but it does make it so
alcoholism is an easy pattern for you to fall into, and requires an extra
measure of care and prevention to avoid.

On Mon, 22 Mar 1999, Jim Cooper wrote:

> I have always held the belief that the divine essense of the Gods was,
> and still is, greater than anything mundane or mortal in the BR world.
> This is why I feel that bloodlines should, in part, dictate the
> personality of the scion who possesses it. A person should have to
> *fight* the natural inclinations of their bloodline. Maybe, perhaps,
> what I mean to say is that bloodlines are really just a small ounce of
> the total PERSONALITY of the dead god to whom it belonged to. The truth
> is, IMO bloodlines should *control* the character, and not the other way
> around.

I hate using words like "dictate" and "control" when we're talking about
PC's. But I like the concept of the DM playing on the natural tendencies
of the bloodline a PC possesses. For example, if a scion of Anduiras is a
part of a party which is considering a dishonorable way out of a
predicament, the DM should feel perfectly free to tell him "Your blood
boils at the thought of dishonorably killing your goblin prisoner!" Thus,
the DM plays the roles of the PC's bloodline tendencies, but the PC's can
decide when they are going to follow them or not. Naturally, this will
work best with players who are more dedicated to pole-playing than
powergaming, but I think we're blessed with more than our fair share of
that in BR lovers.

> You possess the bloodline of Anduiras? Very few beings ought to be evil
> if they have His essense coursing through their veins. Indeed, these
> scions should feel the *need* to smite evil, should feel the *desire* to
> stand up and lead their loved ones, and *inherently* possess an
> extraordinary sense of right and wrong.

Probably why Anuireans inherently trust scions of Anduiras, and might
never reunite under an emperor of a different bloodline. Although once
again, I don't know if I would spin it so forcefully. I think it IS
possible for a scion of Anduiras to be evil (just as its possible for
scions of Azrai to be lawful good paladins). Mostly in one of two ways:
either they do a lot of self-deception, justifying their actions and
believing that they are right, and typically end up somewhat mentally
unstable (do I remember a "Tower of Lindarn the Mad" from the OCP?), Or
the end up reveling in their ability to choose the evil even when they
have an extra-strong conscience poking at them. For this last group, in
particular, it would be important to maintain _appearances_ of being
honorable and just, and so characters like these might make some of the
best NPC villians for PC's in Anuire. (Or else they'll end up as
over-the-top stereotypes like the Sherrif of Nottingham in "Robin Hood:
Prince of Thieves.")

> Possess the personality of Masela? Watch out! This person - right from
> day one - will be a Holy Terror, a veritable powder-keg of emotions. As
> a baby, they will constantly be crying and cranky, right through ranging
> to incredibly happy and making all those cute baby faces and laughter
> (in fact the baby's emotions probably change from one minute to the
> next!). Then comes the "terrible twos". Not to mention the stress
> parents will experience when they reach puberty ... Parents of a child
> of Masela deserve kingdoms and metals if they survive the childhood! :)
> This is why Cuiraecen is the way he is, and is why he is the God of
> Storms - half of his essense comes from His Mother's spirit!!! Yikes!
> Unfortunately, players will be players, and everyone plays this game
> differently, so its really up to the players to roleplay this aspect in
> the game.

Speaking of "over-the-top"... Actually, what struck me here was how
differently we view the personality of Masela. But upon further thought
perhaps we're not all that much different. I definitely see Masela's
personality as "Stormy" but perhaps I was thinking more
"manic-depressive." That is having both a vibrant, passionate side and a
dark dreamy, calm, far-off side. I suppose I tend to emphasize the second
part of that (no doubt due to my own personality). But I suspect that you
could describe that as a passionate expression of ALL emotions, both the
"up" or "active" emotions like happiness, anger, love/lust/passion,
jealousy, as well as the "down" or "passive" emotions like sorrow,
melancholia, heartbreak, serenity, devotion. But all can be felt and
experienced passionately.

> But herein lies the problem. Are these divine essenses interchangeable,
> or (whats the word? ...) 'intermixable'?!? What really happens when a
> bloodtheft occurs, or when a scion passes on their bloodline to another?
> I have always assumed (because I think the assumption is there in the
> books) that bloodlines are simply just a universal energy source that
> simply comes from a divine source. Do the rest of you get this
> impression?

Pretty much. I think that this concept that the different bloodlines have
different "flavors" or "polarities" or "tendencies", or personalities if
you will, is pretty much stuff that we've read into it.

> But I don't like this idea. It doesn't do the BR idea justice. I
> cannot, even for one instant, make myself believe that if the blood of
> Anduiras was absorbed by an awnsheghlien that the two would co-exist
> peaceably. Or vice versa. I can almost see the bloodlines as being
> sentient, in a way (almost). What if, by accident, a noble scion of
> Anduiras accidently committed bloodtheft on a latent awnsheghlien?
> Would the noble scion just suck it up and say: "Oh well, just more power
> for me!" NAY - I cannot believe this! This is in part why I posted
> reactions of the scions to the blood.

I guess I just don't see the "tendencies" or "personalities" of the
bloodlines as native to the godstuff as much as imposed upon it by the
personality of the possessor. The old gods possessed their blood for a
long time and had pretty strong personalities, and their tendencies are
often taken on by their scions who possess their blood from birth. But
when faced with entering a new and opposed personality (particularly if
backed up with opposed-personality bloodpower) the stronger power will
eventually come to dominate and impose its "polarity" upon the weaker
power. I'm speaking in terms of relative amounts of two bloodlines here,
as if they were some sort of rarefied fluid, but I suppose that's how I
think of them.

> But I'm not saying that bloodlines would repel each other either. No,
> our poor scions have *no choice* if they happen to absorb a differing
> essense. But they *do* have to live with the consequences. And because
> of this, I propose that differing bloodlines are NOT interchangable, or
> 'intermixable' if you prefer. Instead, differing bloodlines will
> co-exist within the unfortunate victim, and the scion must live with the
> constant personality conflicts that rage within them until the parent
> blood essense completely dominates and destroys the 'invading'
> personality. Then, if you like, the result is that the parent essense
> becomes stronger for the struggle (and thus explains the increase of 1
> or 2 points in the bloodstrength of the scion). Or, perhaps, the weaker
> bloodline is eventually 'forced back out' to be absorbed by Aebrynis and
> the parent strength becomes more forceful (stronger). Hey brainstorm:
> or maybe even the 1 or 2 point bloodline is forced out and 'jumps' into
> another scion/commoner if nearby and in tune with the essense?!?)

Well, your concept would certainly explain certain strangeties in the
rules, like the awnshegh The Sphynx having the blood power of control over
cats/lions (I forget which) which is obviously a blood power not of Azrai
but of Brenna (or Anduiras). But I suppose that it comes down to the fact
that I DON'T see the bloodpower as the eternally immutable souls of the
old gods, but rather as some portions of their "godly bodies"/"godly
existence."

> Now, perhaps, the reason the Gorgon has not absorbed the Roele bloodline
> is not because he can't find it or release it (but he makes everyone
> else believe he can't take it), but that its the one thing the Gorgon is
> afraid of: that in so doing, he will become 'corrupted' by the blood of
> Anduiras (you have to admit - thats A LOT of goodness for even the
> Gorgon to suck up).

Interesting idea. Old Mikey may have been wiser than we gave him credit
for, in other words? He knew that if the Gorgon killed him, Old Raesene
could pad his bloodline with a few extra blood-points that could be easily
assimilated. Instead Michael forced him to make a decision: absorb all
that power at once, and run the risk of obtaining an Anduiras bloodline
which has at least an equal chance of holding its own against the Azrai
blood, perhaps even overcoming it, and in the meantime giving Raesene a
killer white-hot prick of a conscience. And of the other hand leaving all
that perfectly good bloodpower there for some fool with the right
derivation and enough intellegence to knock the right two spells together
(whatever they are) and reclaim the bloodline and start the whole empire
thing all over again.

> Gives new meaning to the saying that 'evil feeds upon itself' - because
> the awnsheghlien cannot stand absorbing and diluting their bloodlines
> with all those other 'weak ones' (but in reality, it hurts too much to
> attempt very often. Unfortunately, they can't help it - their own
> bloodlines DEMAND that they 'eat' the blood essense of the other gods.
> Awnsheghlien are forever doomed to continue to prey on unsuspecting
> scions, and gives a reason for why all those wandering horrors are
> insane).

Not bad, although I still think that you are going farther than your
premise really requires.

> Now, only the strength of will in a scion or awnsheghlien allows them to
> maintain their 'parent' (or even their own, mortal) personality with any
> semblence of control. Perhaps now players will think twice about
> stickin' every scion through the heart with glee.

Well, anything that adds consequence to the actions of the PC is exactly
what I'm looking for. Seems to me that the fundamental problem with
western culture is a general lack of thought for the consequences of
actions--and in some cases and almost willful ignorance of those
consequences. Whether its slavery in the Roman empire or the Antebellum
south or economic slavery of developing countries today, we seem perfectly
willing to accept that our actions have consequences as long as those
consequences are felt by someone else, and even more willing to delude
ourselves into thinking that there ARE no consequences, and that the fate
of slaves is somehow their own fault. So my moral agenda in my games is
that all actions have consequences.

OK sermon done. I'm not really all that moralistic or preachy in my games.
Like any bard, the idea is to convey the message while everyone is having
fun. The real idea is to have fun, but I don't appologize for any moral,
either. That's part of MY fun.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Jim Cooper]

Bob Cauthron wrote:
> Still, initially, this would look to be worth the effort. Would you have any objections to me using this? I would like to give it a try.<

By all means, do so big guy! :D This is why I am sharing my ideas with
you guys!

Cheers,
Darren

[Jim Cooper]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
> OK, now I think you've gone and overplayed your case. I don't really see the bloodlines as personalities as much as just simply natural tendencies (or I suppose supernatural tendencies). Sort of like the way you could be born with a chemical imbalance which makes you prone to alcoholism. It doesn't necessarily make you an alcoholic, but it does make it so alcoholism is an easy pattern for you to fall into, and requires an extra measure of care and prevention to avoid.<

Fair enough. Point. Anyone care to state a case against this view?
Okay, I will lead the way: to follow my analogy, I shouldn't have argued
that there was a physical imbalance in a scion's personality; I should
have said that, (to use your analogy), because Anduiras drank alcohol
all the time, scions of Anduiras perhaps literally shake uncontrollably
with desire whenever they even see or smell alcohol, and are *driven* to
take a sip or gulp. Just a supernatural longing, not a physical
reality. I didn't mean to say that it was impossible for a scion to
resist, just that it should be REALLY hard for them not to. But I agree
with you that there are exceptions to every rule too. Indeed, that
would be a mark of a good roleplaying opportunity!

Note that these tendencies would really only be few and very specific.
Anduiras would only pass on the traits of chivalry, goodness,
leadership, and a strong sense of justice for example. That's really
about it. Everything else that made up the personality of the scion is
wholly their own mortal make-up. Thus, the scion could still be greedy,
but would always feel bad about it as his 'conscience' keeps giving him
contrary urges against such action. And, naturally, if a scion had such
a make-up since birth, I think many times it would be quite safe to
assume that the blooded child would come to exemplify this traits (as
Olesen, I believe it was, already stated).

> Thus, the DM plays the roles of the PC's bloodline tendencies, but the PC's can decide when they are going to follow them or not. Naturally, this will work best with players who are more dedicated to pole-playing than powergaming, but I think we're blessed with more than our fair share of that in BR lovers.<

Of course. You gotta love those pole-playing players!!! DMs dream of
having even just one of those in their gaming groups! Woo-hoo!

;)

> Probably why Anuireans inherently trust scions of Anduiras, and might
> never reunite under an emperor of a different bloodline. Although once
> again, I don't know if I would spin it so forcefully.<

Well, please don't take my posts so literally everyone! I was merely
being forcefull in my writing to express my point and to extend the
logical, ideal situation to my arguement (which is: how far is too far
in using this analogy?) I am quite in agreement with Mark's arguements
that followed - players, of course, are perfectly free to play their PCs
the way they want them too.

>But I suspect that you could describe that as a passionate expression of ALL emotions, both the "up" or "active" emotions like happiness, anger, love/lust/passion, jealousy, as well as the "down" or "passive" emotions like sorrow, melancholia, heartbreak, serenity, evotion. But all can be felt and experienced passionately.<

Oh yes, I definintely think this way too. Actually, I see her as
representing the extremes of every and all emotions - she is primarily,
to me, the Goddess of Emotion. I just gave one example of her behaviour
in my posts for the sake of brevity.

> Interesting idea. Old Mikey may have been wiser than we gave him credit for, in other words?<

Right.

> Not bad, although I still think that you are going farther than your
> premise really requires.<

Absolutely, but that was the point of my post - how far should we go in
this direction? Anyone care to argue for my case in going farther than
my premise required? 'O Mighty Tim - any words of wisdom?

Cheers,
Me

[JNeighb934@aol.co]

In a message dated 03/23/99 1:17:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca writes:

>

But wasn't Anduiras actually more of a god of war and rulership without all
the chivalry and justice attached? After all, what the Andu did to the elves
was hardly a cause dripping in justice. It was war waged to serve the needs
of a warlike people who wanted to rule their own destiny, be damned anyone who
got in their way and I'm sure Anduiras was just fine with that as long as
their enemies were met square on in battle. The traits you mention seem more
indicitive of Haelyn, a more sophisticated version of Anduiras as civilization
advanced and the tribal warlord-kings of the Andu and their warriors started
to become the ruling nobility of the Empire. The new gods serve the needs of
a much more civilized people. The old gods are probally all much less
sophisticated, and therefore the influence of their essences in the blood of
the scions should be much more basic and neutral in alignment. Scions of
Anduiras are drawn to battle and glory and ruling other lesser men, whether
out of a chivalric notion to protect and serve one's people and land or out of
an egomaniacal drive for power and bloodlust. In other words, a scion of
Anduiras is just as likey to be a tyrant as a chivalrous knight, depending on
the individual's personality and alignment. Perhaps it is the prevalence of
the worship of Haelyn among the Anuirean nobility in particular that keeps the
majority of the scions of Anduiras in line with good.
In a similar vein, scions of Brenna covet wealth, Reynir- love of the forest
and/or hunting, Masela- drawn to the sea,etc. But any of these influences are
very basic in nature and have little bearing on good or evil. Otherwise,
scions of the same derivation would all have basically the same personality,
which is clearly not the case. Does my thinking make sense?

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

In a message dated 3/23/99 3:16:56 AM Central Standard Time,
Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca writes:

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999 JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:

> But wasn't Anduiras actually more of a god of war and rulership without all
> the chivalry and justice attached? After all, what the Andu did to the elves
> was hardly a cause dripping in justice. It was war waged to serve the needs
> of a warlike people who wanted to rule their own destiny, be damned anyone who
> got in their way and I'm sure Anduiras was just fine with that as long as
> their enemies were met square on in battle. The traits you mention seem more
> indicitive of Haelyn, a more sophisticated version of Anduiras as civilization
> advanced and the tribal warlord-kings of the Andu and their warriors started
> to become the ruling nobility of the Empire. The new gods serve the needs of
> a much more civilized people. The old gods are probally all much less
> sophisticated, and therefore the influence of their essences in the blood of
> the scions should be much more basic and neutral in alignment. Scions of
> Anduiras are drawn to battle and glory and ruling other lesser men, whether
> out of a chivalric notion to protect and serve one's people and land or out of
> an egomaniacal drive for power and bloodlust. In other words, a scion of
> Anduiras is just as likey to be a tyrant as a chivalrous knight, depending on
> the individual's personality and alignment. Perhaps it is the prevalence of
> the worship of Haelyn among the Anuirean nobility in particular that keeps the
> majority of the scions of Anduiras in line with good.

Well. Justice is a major portion of Anduiras's portfolio, but I agree with
the point you're making. I actually don't see Anduiras really so much a
god of goodness as a god of Honor and I think that the anuireans have a
somewhat different view of what it means to be honorable under Haelyn
than they did under Anduiras. Perhaps that was what let them grow as a
civilization from a tribal culture to an Imperial culture. Heck, perhaps
if your culture's organizing conceptions are personified in the form of a
god, you HAVE to kill them off every once in a while to keep from
becomming culturally stagnant.

Anyway, and back to the point, I see Anduiras definitely as a god of
Honor, of "right conduct" but we all know that honor (like most things)
can be taken too far, and can be perverted to megalomaniacal ends.

> In a similar vein, scions of Brenna covet wealth, Reynir- love of the forest
> and/or hunting, Masela- drawn to the sea,etc. But any of these influences are
> very basic in nature and have little bearing on good or evil. Otherwise,
> scions of the same derivation would all have basically the same personality,
> which is clearly not the case. Does my thinking make sense?

Perfect sense. I generally play NPC's with bloodlines as you've described
them. With certain central tendencies but with distinct personalities,
variations around that theme. Now I may start role-playing the
"tendencies" of my PC's bloodlines, to give them a "poke" in an
interesting direction every now and then. I don't go nearly to the extent
that Darren was advocating, but it's clear he's playing rhetoric games
with us (the slippery bugger ;)~ ).

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[Kenneth Gauck]

>> Well as a player I wouldn't want my bloodline dicating what I do,<
>
>That's part of the problem! :)

I have seen players walk out of a campaign over this type of thing. Some
players believe that the creation of their character is 100% their part of
the game, and even attempts to impart cultural information ("Amnibarprex
would know that entering the Sielwode is very dangerous") are viewed as an
intrusion. I would recomend that something as determining as this should be
a negotiation between the players, not something imparted from on high.

Kenneth Gauck
c558382@earthlink.net

[Gabriel]

> > This came up once in my campaign and I told the unlucky PC he needed to steal it back, now sadly much reduced!<
>
> It was me as the DM, I would do the same thing. Thats because I, too,
> am a:
>
> > a cruel bastard.<

Same with the one instance of that occuring in my game


>
> Like you said! ;D
>
> > Incidently, it was another PC that did it. It didn't do much for party unity. ;)<
>
> Cool - I'm not alone in psychotic PC parties ...
>

Certainly not alone. I had one player turn evil, and then manage to convince another player to go over to the Dark Side with him. It all worked out
badly for the good guys in the long run, and it ended up with an NPC (previously a PC) and one of my PCs getting sticked with a Tighmaevril weapon. No
good. Party unity has never really recovered.

G'luck,
Alaric

[Jim Cooper]

JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:
> In a similar vein, scions of Brenna covet wealth, Reynir- love of the forest and/or hunting, Masela- drawn to the sea,etc. But any of these influences are very basic in nature and have little bearing on good or evil. Otherwise, scions of the same derivation would all have basically the same personality, which is clearly not the case. Does my thinking make sense?<

Interesting. Yes, it does make sense. So you are saying that the Old
Gods represented a more 'savage'/elemental nature, whereas the New Gods
represent a higher level of deityhood. I could live with this. Kinda
like they represented elemental forces like pagan gods, and the new gods
represent more than that because they had physical form and
personalities at one time ...

Consensus everyone? Personally, I have always felt that the Old Gods
represented the pinnacle of any godhood of all the AD&D games - they
were beyond levels and such and represented the perfect ideals and
culture of the ancient civilations they represented. They could do
anything, were in essense every character class possible at the same
time. Indeed, I think each single god fulfilled all the roles their
mortals needed this deity to fulfill. The New Gods, on the other hand,
are mere 'shadows' of their progenitor's image, and thus are limited to
represent certain 'spheres' in the Cerilian ideology. These sphere
being the most closely that the progenitor favoured and they mirrored
... this is why they were the Old Gods #1 champions

Cheers,
Me

[Jim Cooper]

Mark A Vandermeulen wrote:
> I don't go nearly to the extent that Darren was advocating, but it's clear he's playing rhetoric games with us (the slippery bugger ;)~ ).<

Heh.

WHO ME?!?!??! Nooooo!!! ;D

(Just trying to liven up this sleepy mailing list!!!)

Cheers,
Me (who OBVIOUSLY holds the bloodline of Brenna ...) ;)

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 3/23/99 4:12:56 PM Central Standard Time,
Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca writes:

> WHO ME?!?!??! Nooooo!!! ;D
>
> (Just trying to liven up this sleepy mailing list!!!)
>
> Cheers,
> Me (who OBVIOUSLY holds the bloodline of Brenna ...) ;)
>
A BLOODLINE!!! GET HIM!!! I'll hold 'im down, somebody quick stick 'im! I
never seen one o' them cool displays when a scion of Brenna kicks off!

hey, this just tipped off another relavent question. I know this has come up
on the list before, but some people have come and others left. If a blooded
character is killed via bloodtheft, and somehow resurrected or reincarnated (I
know, this would be extremely rare) what do you do? Give him his bloodline
back or make him a commoner? This came up once in my campaign and I told the
unlucky PC he needed to steal it back, now sadly much reduced! That's because
I'm a cruel bastard. Incidently, it was another PC that did it. It didn't do
much for party unity. ;)

- -Dustin "Bloodthief" Evermore

P.S. try not to stick me, too, in the process.

[Jim Cooper]

DKEvermore@aol.com wrote:
> A BLOODLINE!!! GET HIM!!! I'll hold 'im down, somebody quick stick 'im! I never seen one o' them cool displays when a scion of Brenna kicks off!<

HAH! You'll never get me! Haven't you ever heard the tales that those
descendants of Brenna can never be caught, not even by magic!?!

> This came up once in my campaign and I told the unlucky PC he needed to steal it back, now sadly much reduced!<

It was me as the DM, I would do the same thing. Thats because I, too,
am a:

> a cruel bastard.<

Like you said! ;D

> Incidently, it was another PC that did it. It didn't do much for party unity. ;)<

Cool - I'm not alone in psychotic PC parties ...

Cheers,
Me :)

[JNeighb934@aol.co]

In a message dated 03/23/99 15:16:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
DKEvermore@aol.com writes:

>

I would say the character is no longer a scion because his bloodline has been
stripped from him via the bloodtheft. He no longer possesses a bloodline.

[Daniel McSorley]

From: JNeighb934@aol.com
>If a blooded
>character is killed via bloodtheft, and somehow resurrected or reincarnated
>(I know, this would be extremely rare) what do you back or make him a commoner?
The book of Priestcraft stated that if a scion is ever killed and then
somehow brought back, their bloodline is gone (not even a 0 I think). Even
if they were the ruler of a kingdom in life, they couldn't then rule it
since they had no bloodline. In fact, if they ever did gain a new bloodline
somehow, they still couldn't regain their old kingdom because the land would
reject them.

Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu

[JNeighb934@aol.co]

In a message dated 03/23/99 23:22:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
mcsorley.1@osu.edu writes:

>

Actually, the book states that the scion retains his bloodline "unless he
willingly gave it away by designating it before his death." That also implies
that a resurrected scion is without his bloodline if he was killed via
bloodtheft or divested of his bloodline before death.

[Jeff Dunnett]

I think what your saying makes a lot of sense. I think bloodlines are a
good device for game mechanics and should not have an affect on
personality. Other then the fact that it makes you want to rule.
Excluding Azira because his blood is so evil it curropts. As a player I
would not want my personality to depend on the bloodline I have,
especially since bloodline depends on a roll.

jeff

- --- JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 03/23/99 1:17:03 AM Pacific
> Standard Time,
> Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca writes:
>
> few and very specific.
> Anduiras would only pass on the traits of chivalry,
> goodness,
> leadership, and a strong sense of justice for
> example. >>
>
> But wasn't Anduiras actually more of a god of war and
> rulership without all
> the chivalry and justice attached? After all, what
> the Andu did to the elves
> was hardly a cause dripping in justice. It was war
> waged to serve the needs
> of a warlike people who wanted to rule their own
> destiny, be damned anyone who
> got in their way and I'm sure Anduiras was just fine
> with that as long as
> their enemies were met square on in battle. The
> traits you mention seem more
> indicitive of Haelyn, a more sophisticated version of
> Anduiras as civilization
> advanced and the tribal warlord-kings of the Andu and
> their warriors started
> to become the ruling nobility of the Empire. The new
> gods serve the needs of
> a much more civilized people. The old gods are
> probally all much less
> sophisticated, and therefore the influence of their
> essences in the blood of
> the scions should be much more basic and neutral in
> alignment. Scions of
> Anduiras are drawn to battle and glory and ruling
> other lesser men, whether
> out of a chivalric notion to protect and serve one's
> people and land or out of
> an egomaniacal drive for power and bloodlust. In
> other words, a scion of
> Anduiras is just as likey to be a tyrant as a
> chivalrous knight, depending on
> the individual's personality and alignment. Perhaps
> it is the prevalence of
> the worship of Haelyn among the Anuirean nobility in
> particular that keeps the
> majority of the scions of Anduiras in line with good.
> In a similar vein, scions of Brenna covet wealth,
> Reynir- love of the forest
> and/or hunting, Masela- drawn to the sea,etc. But
> any of these influences are
> very basic in nature and have little bearing on good
> or evil. Otherwise,
> scions of the same derivation would all have
> basically the same personality,
> which is clearly not the case. Does my thinking make
> sense?
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to
> majordomo@mpgn.com with the line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

__________________________________________________ _______
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 3/24/99 1:22:54 AM Central Standard Time,
mcsorley.1@osu.edu writes:

> The book of Priestcraft stated that if a scion is ever killed and then
> somehow brought back, their bloodline is gone (not even a 0 I think). Even
> if they were the ruler of a kingdom in life, they couldn't then rule it
> since they had no bloodline. In fact, if they ever did gain a new
bloodline
> somehow, they still couldn't regain their old kingdom because the land
would
> reject them.
>
Yep, that's how I've been playing it. Once a PC was killed in a battle in
which a powerful demon was participating (on the same side as the PCs, even!).
In gratitude for saving it's demonic hide (it didn't know the PCs didn't mean
to) it brought back the dead PC--much to the horror of the party. I then
stripped him of his bloodline and kingdom, informing him the land rejected
him. (In this case the player didn't care anyway, he had more important
things to worry about :) But hey, he was alive, wasn't he?

- -DKE

[Bob Cauthron]

Response below.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Cooper
To: birthright@mpgn.com
Date: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Even MORE about bloodlines!


>JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:
>> In a similar vein, scions of Brenna covet wealth, Reynir- love of the
forest and/or hunting, Masela- drawn to the sea,etc. But any of these
influences are very basic in nature and have little bearing on good or evil.
Otherwise, scions of the same derivation would all have basically the same
personality, which is clearly not the case. Does my thinking make sense?<
>
>Interesting. Yes, it does make sense. So you are saying that the Old
>Gods represented a more 'savage'/elemental nature, whereas the New Gods
>represent a higher level of deityhood. I could live with this. Kinda
>like they represented elemental forces like pagan gods, and the new gods
>represent more than that because they had physical form and
>personalities at one time ...
>
>Consensus everyone? Personally, I have always felt that the Old Gods
>represented the pinnacle of any godhood of all the AD&D games - they
>were beyond levels and such and represented the perfect ideals and
>culture of the ancient civilations they represented. They could do
>anything, were in essense every character class possible at the same
>time. Indeed, I think each single god fulfilled all the roles their
>mortals needed this deity to fulfill. The New Gods, on the other hand,
>are mere 'shadows' of their progenitor's image, and thus are limited to
>represent certain 'spheres' in the Cerilian ideology. These sphere
>being the most closely that the progenitor favoured and they mirrored
>... this is why they were the Old Gods #1 champions
>
>Cheers,
>Me

In my view, the elder gods are indeed more primal, as I see them as
being more "elemental" in nature, akin to "uncaring" forces rather than
reflections of mortals such as humans. The elder gods are truly inscrutable
and mysterious because of their nature, and not becauss of anything else. Of
course, gods are this way to begin with, but the elder ones are more so. As
the younger gods attune themselves to their divine nature, they become more
like this, but they will not convert completely. Their outlooks will be
molded by their past, which includes their mortal origins.

[JNeighb934@aol.co]

In a message dated 03/24/99 14:12:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
Wulfheim@worldnet.att.net writes:

>

I was under the impression that the Old Gods were especially close to their
mortal worshippers- too close, in fact; the result being their destruction at
Deismaar. That is why the new gods made a pact, even Belenik and Kriesha, to
never again meet on the prime plane in physical form to avoid another
cataclysm, and instead have taken to indirect action using their churches and
priests to accomplish their goals. But the old gods seem to have had a much
closer relationship with their respective tribe and priests (Vorynn and
Ruornil seemed to have had a kind of personal friendship between them) and my
guess is they sent their avatars to aid them quite frequently. How else could
the elves have been so utterly overwhelmed by man's clerical magic and reduced
to the relatively small forest kingdoms they rule today?
And also I see the old gods as having represented ancient, tribal cultures
whose level of civilization was much less advanced than the cultures of modern
Cerilia. Therefore their portfolios would have been simpler and less
sophisticated, and demands on their followers less, well, demanding. But the
gods were simpler only because their worshippers didn't require complexity of
them, and they still seemed to possess many human characteristics about them.
Perhaps in the dawn of man's beginnings the old gods had been mortals
themselves, ascending to the heavens to guide and protect their tribes like
the new gods would do millenia later.

[Jeff Dunnett]

I think your mistaken, I recently read in the Book of Priestcraft that
the person if they are brought back from the dead they regain their
bloodline, but can't get their kingdom back because the connection has
been sevred but they can get holdings somewhere else. That is if they
can get brought back. I like the fact that only a few priesthoods can
raise.

- --- Daniel McSorley wrote:
> From: JNeighb934@aol.com
> >If a blooded
> >character is killed via bloodtheft, and somehow
> resurrected or reincarnated
> >(I know, this would be extremely rare) what do you
> bloodline
> > back or make him a commoner?
> The book of Priestcraft stated that if a scion is
> ever killed and then
> somehow brought back, their bloodline is gone (not
> even a 0 I think). Even
> if they were the ruler of a kingdom in life, they
> couldn't then rule it
> since they had no bloodline. In fact, if they ever
> did gain a new bloodline
> somehow, they still couldn't regain their old kingdom
> because the land would
> reject them.
>
> Daniel McSorley- mcsorley.1@osu.edu
>
>
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to
> majordomo@mpgn.com with the line
> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>

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