The Old Gods of Aebrynis

[Jim Cooper]

Bob Cauthron wrote:
> In my view, the elder gods are indeed more primal, as I see them as being more "elemental" in nature, akin to "uncaring" forces rather than reflections of mortals such as humans. The elder gods are truly inscrutable and mysterious because of their nature, and not becauss of anything else. Of course, gods are this way to begin with, but the elder ones are more so. As the younger gods attune themselves to their divine nature, they become more like this, but they will not convert completely. Their outlooks will be molded by their past, which includes their mortal origins.<

Well, I must say that this view expressed by a couple of people has
taken me by surprise - I never had considered the Old Gods in this way.
I always figured that they actually walked among the ancient civilations
of Aduria, like the Greek gods in a way, and thus were very distinct
personalities, not omnipresent forces of nature.

Am I completely out to lunch? Does everyone see the Old Gods the way
Mr. Cauthron does?

Interesting ...

Cheers,
Me

[Bob Cauthron]

>Bob Cauthron wrote:
>> In my view, the elder gods are indeed more primal, as I see them as
being more "elemental" in nature, akin to "uncaring" forces rather than
reflections of mortals such as humans. The elder gods are truly inscrutable
and mysterious because of their nature, and not becauss of anything else. Of
course, gods are this way to begin with, but the elder ones are more so. As
the younger gods attune themselves to their divine nature, they become more
like this, but they will not convert completely. Their outlooks will be
molded by their past, which includes their mortal origins. Jim Cooper wrote in response:
>Well, I must say that this view expressed by a couple of people has
>taken me by surprise - I never had considered the Old Gods in this way.
>I always figured that they actually walked among the ancient civilations
>of Aduria, like the Greek gods in a way, and thus were very distinct
>personalities, not omnipresent forces of nature.
>
>Am I completely out to lunch? Does everyone see the Old Gods the way
>Mr. Cauthron does?
>
>Interesting ...
>
>Cheers,
>Me


No, you are not out to lunch. Not at all. I just view them differently
than you. I happen to see your point about the greek gods, and as a matter
of fact, that was the impression I had when reading your material. I am
biased against the greek gods, though, and that influences how I see them.
Your view is probably more accurate, and hence pertinent.

Just plain Bob

[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, Jim Cooper wrote:

> Well, I must say that this view expressed by a couple of people has
> taken me by surprise - I never had considered the Old Gods in this way.
> I always figured that they actually walked among the ancient civilations
> of Aduria, like the Greek gods in a way, and thus were very distinct
> personalities, not omnipresent forces of nature.
>
> Am I completely out to lunch? Does everyone see the Old Gods the way
> Mr. Cauthron does?

No, no, you're not alone. Bob's views of the Old Gods also struck me as a
new, but not unpleasing, viewpoint. I kind of like what it says about
the advance of the civilizations of Cerilia in response to the changing of
their gods. Perhaps, like the Vorlons and Shadows of Babylon 5, in order
to progress, society does have to go through stages of destruction and
regrowth. Thus, the reason that Azrai COULD gain in power in the first
place was that the human cultures had grown stagnant. So in that sense, it
is possible that Azrai was the only real "successful" god because he COULD
change, perhaps partly because he was the god of knowledge, and knowledge
is always changing. The other gods were much more representative of
universal norms, which (being supposedly universal) are immune to change.
As a result, the cultures whose fundmental priorities they embodied were
likely to be concervative and immune to changes, while Azrai's was much
more fluid and open to change. No wonder the Adurians developed a powerful
empire first. It is only when the gods were killed that their cultures
could develop some sense of relativism and change based on a more fully
"personalized" godhead.

Random thoughts.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu

[JNeighb934@aol.co]

In a message dated 03/24/99 14:57:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
vander+@pitt.edu writes:

>

Where is the source regarding Azrai once being the god of knowledge? I
remember reading that somewhere, I think, but just can't remember where. Can
you help me out?

[Pieter A de Jong]

Jim Cooper wrote:
>
> Bob Cauthron wrote:
> > In my view, the elder gods are indeed more primal, as I see them as being more "elemental" in nature, akin to "uncaring" forces rather than reflections of mortals such as humans. The elder gods are truly inscrutable and mysterious because of their nature, and not becauss of anything else. Of course, gods are this way to begin with, but the elder ones are more so. As the younger gods attune themselves to their divine nature, they become more like this, but they will not convert completely. Their outlooks will be molded by their past, which includes their mortal origins.<
>
> Well, I must say that this view expressed by a couple of people has
> taken me by surprise - I never had considered the Old Gods in this way.
> I always figured that they actually walked among the ancient civilations
> of Aduria, like the Greek gods in a way, and thus were very distinct
> personalities, not omnipresent forces of nature.
>
> Am I completely out to lunch? Does everyone see the Old Gods the way
> Mr. Cauthron does?
>
No, I see the elder gods being very involved in humanity as well,
championing there own tribe. They served the whole as leaders, heroes,
proctectors and living examples of how to be Andu/Vos/Rjurik/Etc.
- --

Pieter A de Jong
Graduate Mechanical Engineering Student
University of Saskatchewan, Saskatoon, Canada

[Jim Cooper]

Pieter A de Jong wrote:
> No, I see the elder gods being very involved in humanity as well,
> championing there own tribe. They served the whole as leaders, heroes, proctectors and living examples of how to be Andu/Vos/Rjurik/Etc.<

Exactly IMO - in fact, that's how I explain regents pre-Deismaar: The
Old Gods WERE the regents of these tribes! Their ultra-powerful avatars
ruled various parts of Aduria like mortal scions do now (very much like
the later Empire of Anuire).

I visualized the Old Gods as being these huge titan like beings, 25 feet
tall, the perfect examples of their respective 'children' (ie Anduiras a
big, golden-haired buffed stud; Brenna a raven-haired seductress;
Masela, an cinnamon haired vixen; Vorynn = Arnold as Conan (but a very
*intelligent-looking* Arnold! :)~); Reynir a big, *fair-haired* buffed
stud; Azrai = James Earl Jones in Conan movie; and Basaia as (Holy
Amazon Queens, Batlisters!) Grace Jones. :D ~).

For mythological references & inspirations, I use the following
archetypes:

Anduiras = Zeus (mostly) but also Odin/Ares mix (like, duh!)
Masela = Frigga (mostly), but also Athena/Hera/Nike/ mix
Brenna = Hel (mostly for looks) and Aphrodite/Circe/Freya mix
Reynir = Ahto (mostly), but also Dionysus/Demeter/Poseidon mix
Azrai = Ra & Quetzalcoatl (mostly) but also Hades/Hecate mix
Vorynn = Math & Oghma (mostly), but also Apollo/Kronos/Artemis mix
Basaia = Ishtar/My vision of the mythical Amazon Queen mix

Thus, while the old gods in my campaign were composed a lot on
Norse/Finnish temperament, they were also very much based on Greek
mythology as well. I tended to include both sexual identities into
their personalities as well, which made their personality seem to me
more 'humanish' on the whole (note that Basaia didn't, for a special
reason: I feel that she would be the ultimate feminist, and oppossed
Anduiras for the most part precisely because of his testosterone high
personalities ... this has carried over into the long standing
Haelyn/Avani rivalry!) :D

Cheers,
Me

[Olesens]

> Thus, while the old gods in my campaign were composed a lot on
> Norse/Finnish temperament, they were also very much based on Greek
> mythology as well.

What fantasy gods aren't? At least in part. Well I just wanted to give my view on the old gods. I did think of them as more elemental
(traveling in clouds like in Greatheart). I think when they did peronally interact it was through a not-always-noticible avatar. I just can't
see them running around in a form that eveyone recognizes and doing stuff. I think they were about as active then as in 551 MR. My bet is that
the greatest activity period was shortly after Diesmaar (about the original Roele's reign).

[darkstar]

JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:

> Where is the source regarding Azrai once being the god of knowledge? I
> remember reading that somewhere, I think, but just can't remember where. Can
> you help me out?
>
It was in the book of priestcraft, pg 121

- --
Ian Hoskins

e-Mail: hoss@box.net.au
Homepage: http://www.box.net.au/~hoss

ICQ: 2938300 AIM: IHoskins

[Bob Cauthron]

>> Thus, while the old gods in my campaign were composed a lot on
>> Norse/Finnish temperament, they were also very much based on Greek
>> mythology as well.
>
>What fantasy gods aren't? At least in part. Well I just wanted to give my
view on the old gods. I did think of them as more elemental
>(traveling in clouds like in Greatheart). I think when they did peronally
interact it was through a not-always-noticible avatar. I just can't
>see them running around in a form that eveyone recognizes and doing stuff.
I think they were about as active then as in 551 MR. My bet is that
>the greatest activity period was shortly after Diesmaar (about the
>original Roele's reign).


See, Mr. Cooper? I was right. Your view is much more pertinent than
mine. Just so that I may clarify, my view on the so-called original BR
deities is obviously different than most everyone's. This is for several
reasons, and all of them are a matter of preference, not the view that I am
correct.
IMC, the elder gods are not the gods that predate the current ones.
They are the primordial, incomprehensible beings who existed for who knows
how long. They are beyond gods, and worshippers are not necessary for them
to maintain power in any way. After eons passed, then came the "first" set
of BR deities. By this time the true elder gods had more or less moved on,
for whatever reasons. So there was no conflict there.
These gods were originally remote, and then became more akin to mortals
as they developed a relationship of sorts with the various types of mortals
(many races, not just humans - although IMC, the humans are the most
successful race in terms of survival and power currently in history). When
this happened, some of the gods changed more than others, and some of these
became VERY self-interested. And so on. I see the relationship between the
younger gods and "their" mortals as an interactive one, with both sides
being affected, in varying degrees.
Hopefully this makes some sort of sense, and is somewhat viable.

[Gary V. Foss]

Bob Cauthron wrote:

> IMC, the elder gods are not the gods that predate the current ones.
> They are the primordial, incomprehensible beings who existed for who knows
> how long. They are beyond gods, and worshippers are not necessary for them
> to maintain power in any way. After eons passed, then came the "first" set
> of BR deities. By this time the true elder gods had more or less moved on,
> for whatever reasons. So there was no conflict there.

I did something very similar to that in my non-BR, FRish campaign. The Elder
gods (called the Elderon) were beings that embodied concepts like matter,
energy, good, evil, entropy, chaos and law. It was their interaction that
created the universe in the mythology of that world, and led to the creation of
beings like greater gods, titans, etc. not to mention the worlds, planes and
such.

My question, however, is how does your view of these elder gods interact in a BR
campaign? In BR, the gods are much more proximate than in another campaign
world, but even in the "high magic" setting of the campaign for which I used the
Elderon, they remained remote, conceptual beings who never interacted at all
with the PCs. Does these beings have any influence at all in your BR campaign?

Gary

[Bob Cauthron]

>Bob Cauthron wrote:
>
>> IMC, the elder gods are not the gods that predate the current ones.
>> They are the primordial, incomprehensible beings who existed for who
knows
>> how long. They are beyond gods, and worshippers are not necessary for
them
>> to maintain power in any way. After eons passed, then came the "first"
set
>> of BR deities. By this time the true elder gods had more or less moved
on,
>> for whatever reasons. So there was no conflict there.
>
>I did something very similar to that in my non-BR, FRish campaign. The
Elder
>gods (called the Elderon) were beings that embodied concepts like matter,
>energy, good, evil, entropy, chaos and law. It was their interaction that
>created the universe in the mythology of that world, and led to the
creation of
>beings like greater gods, titans, etc. not to mention the worlds, planes
and
>such.
>
>My question, however, is how does your view of these elder gods interact in
a BR
>campaign? In BR, the gods are much more proximate than in another campaign
>world, but even in the "high magic" setting of the campaign for which I
used the
>Elderon, they remained remote, conceptual beings who never interacted at
all
>with the PCs. Does these beings have any influence at all in your BR
campaign?
>
>Gary


I agree with what you, and most others are saying. In the BR campaign
set, the gods have always been active in the affairs of the mortals. In
different ways and varying degrees.
The campaign that I have going has been modified with regards to that
setup. I do not like "god-active" worlds, especially those that encourage
pcs' to become participants of that. Therefore, I created an archaic
beings - elder gods - younger gods system in which the gods are
participating in world affairs, but with the memory of what happened in the
past. While there are troubled periods with this, the current gods try to
make this work.
This is out-of-br world here, but I use the hero-god method that was
vaguely described in the long-ago issues of the Dragon magazine. I think
this is near-perfect for the BR world, with alterations and modifications.
This is how the current gods described in BR are placed IMC. Note that gods
are gods in my eyes, and that to mortals, definitive differences are almost
impossible to discern. Which explains why there is so much information about
deities, religions, and cults, from all sorts of viewpoints.
Most of the archaic beings have moved on from Cerilia. Some have a
distant, remote interest. There are three that have an active interest,
mainly due to their followers. All three beings have mortals who worship
them and "act in their name." Two have organized religions that are
generally accepted by the populace, and one has to remain hidden due to its
disreputable nature. The one thing they all have in common is developing
presences in the Shadow World, which the younger gods prefer to be left
alone. So there is the potential for serious conflict there.