Point-based character generation

[Angelbialaska]

I'm sitting and generating a Birthright character once again (Yeah, it has been done quite often) and it just appears to me that 32 points for the point buy system is nowhere near the points that such a character should be generated on.

Just to compare with the published characters and notice that bloodline cost hasn't been included:
Aeric Boeruine: 52 points
Caliedhe Dosiere: 50 points
Darian Avan: 56 points
Shaemes: 43 points
Theodor Profiev: 52 points
Kalien: 49 points
The Wizard: 33 points
Graechar: 29 points (But he's ancient, so there's probably at least 9 points that has gone in penalties)
Vasily: 42 points
Kalilah: 51 points
Grimm Graybeard: 57 points

And that's just those mentioned in Ruins of Empire.

I believe that the character generation in a Birthright campaign should be closer to being 40 or 50 points. Birthright characters aren't sissies, they are true heroes.

[Arius Vistoon]

you forget one point for 4 level, no ?

i find for
Aeric boeruine 45
wizard 27 ( but she has an "unkow heritage" )
.....
but it'snt a character "of creation" and perharps they are power ( blood capacity for exemple ) that modified these...

[Raesene Andu]

Another reason why I don't use point-based character generation.

[Birthright-L]

Some experiments in my own campaign with various

characters of different ability scores lead me and one

of my friends to implement an option for players

during character generation: An extra 25 points for

ECL +1 or an extra 50 points for ECL +2 works

suprisingly well.



These experiments were done using 3rd edition rules;

I`m not very familiar with 3.5.







=====

While I wrought out these fitful Danaan rhymes,

My heart would brim with dreams about the times

When we bent down above the fading coals

And talked of the dark folk who live in souls

Of passionate men, like bats in the dead trees;

And of the wayward twilight companies

Who sigh with mingled sorrow and content,

Because their blossoming dreams have never bent

Under the fruit of evil and of good:

And of the embattled flaming multitude

Who rise, wing above wing, flame above flame,

And, like a storm, cry the Ineffable Name,

And with the clashing of their sword-blades make

A rapturous music, till the morning break

And the white hush end all but the loud beat

Of their long wings, the flash of their white feet.







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[irdeggman]

All right the discussion seems to be on the BRCS-playtest version and not the the sanctioned Chap 2 version. There is no ECL adjustment (a 3.0 term) or LA for the "sanctioned" version.

Use the "sanctioned" version and the numbers for a 1st level character will be a whole lot closer. For character with levels in scion class they get an increase to their bloodline score depending on the number of levels taken. There is no ability score increase for 4th level in this case since there is no correlation for bloodline score to an ability after character generation.

Higher levels characters, such as those referenced, are quite likely to have gained bloodline score increases through wise leadership and/or from bloodtheft along the way. Pretty much nothing has been written to account for all of those years those characters did things so it is entirely up to the DM to fill in, hence mechanically it still falls into the ranges set up by the 3.5 mechanics.

Regardless, not every character in 2nd will translate into an equivalent 3.0 character - just can't happen. Some suspension of the system will be inevitable to capture the iconic characters from 2nd ed, but the idea is to come as close as possible to include them mechanically.

The other method is to use any method desired to create a character but include the bloodline score as one of the ability scores at creation. This is the tradeoff for being a scion and correlates to the 10% exp bonus that non-blooded gained in 2nd ed. A player decides whether or not to emphasize his character's role as a scon or as a standard character, but every choice has a consequence.

[Arius Vistoon]

Originally posted by irdeggman@Dec 21 2004, 04:37 PM
For character with levels in scion class they get an increase to their bloodline score depending on the number of levels taken. There is no ability score increase for 4th level in this case since there is no correlation for bloodline score to an ability after character generation.


That fell under the sens but it is true that would be specified.
for me, I more thought about the capacity "Heightened Ability" which is given +2 to an ability score.



Regardless, not every character in 2nd will translate into an equivalent 3.0 character - just can't happen. Some suspension of the system will be inevitable to capture the iconic characters from 2nd ed, but the idea is to come as close as possible to include them mechanically.

i agree with this. ;)

[irdeggman]

That fell under the sens but it is true that would be specified.
for me, I more thought about the capacity "Heightened Ability" which is given +2 to an ability score.

From the sanctioned Chap 2:


Starting characters that are scions have an ability score that is not possessed by non-blooded characters. This ability score determines the bloodline power of a character in much the same way that their strength ability score determines the character’s physical strength. This seventh ability score must be generated during character creation following the rules for ability score determination presented in Chapter One: Characters.

Once the initial ability score is determined this number is then doubled to determine the character’s bloodline score


Also Heightened Ability from the same source:



A scion with this attribute gains a +2 increase in the applicable ability score. The abilities associated with each derivation are as follows: Anduiras - Charisma or Strength (choose which one or roll for it when this ability is gained); Basaïa - Intelligence; Brenna - Dexterity; Reynir - Constitution; Vorynn - Wisdom; Azrai - Charisma or Intelligence (choose which one or roll for it when this ability is gained).

It lists specifically what it applies to, i.e., the base 6 ability scores and which bloodlines gain which ones.

Basically after initial character generation there is no bloodline ability score. It is called a bloodline score (to avoid any confusion with any of the base 6 abilities).

[Arius Vistoon]

:blink: :blink: :blink:

we say the same thing, we agree
I said just that in his calculation of ability ( not blood score) it did not hold counts some parameter as 4 level up or capacity/power such as Heightened Ability

[The Jew]

Originally posted by Raesene Andu@Dec 20 2004, 08:49 PM
Another reason why I don't use point-based character generation.
given my ability roles for my character in your campaign, I am glad to :D

[The incredible, edible Phil]

The characters referred to are really the cream of the crop as it were. Although it is fair to assume that heirs receive the best training and schooling their realm can provide for the most part. 32 is considered for campaigns that are deemed High Fantasy (Forgotten Realms, Eberron). While Birthright does not have the same feel, it is a game about Realm making and realm building so I would definetly consider it a High Fantasy but of a different vein and would say that any point-buy system for BR should be at 32 and not 28.

While rolling dice does add a certain realism, as a DM we must sometimes weigh realism vs fun. If we wanted realism we'd be playing Rolemaster. While it might be fun for 1 or a select few players to have very high stats, it would reduce the enjoyment of the players that roll below the curve.

D&D is a very social game and part of that is for everyone to have fun.

[Green Knight]

Hi,

I use 35 points for PC and other "heroic" characters (as opposed to normal elites who get their 25). Bloodline generation is separate from this, but characters CAN choose to nerf their abilitites to up their bloodline a bit.

That gives a nice standard spread of:

16 (+10 pts), 15 (+8 pts), 14 (+6 pts), 13 (+5 pts), 12 (+4 pts), 10 (+2 pts) = 35 pts total.

None of these stats are too broken - even with a 16 you neeed to be 8th level to get an 18 in a stat, and you can't get a 20 until lvl 16, so not many are going to experience that. Still, with 35 points a player CAN max one stat with 18 (+16 pts), but not two or maybe have two with 17 (+26 pts). Even with the later option he still has some points left. I think this is OK for exceptional people (like PCs).

If you want truly legendary characters try this spread:

17, 16, 15, 14, 12, 12 = 45 pts total

Characters no longer have any bad abilities, and have quite a few pretty good ones. He could even start with four 16 (+4 pts) and still have 5 pts left. At this level things start breaking down a bit IMO. Only suitable for a special type of campaign.

And for the ultimate Epic hero:

18, 17, 16, 15, 12, 12 = 55 pts total

Well, what can I say? You could start with two 18 if you wanted, and still have loads of points left! This level really isn't very useful - if you think its OK, then why not play and all 18 character instead :-D

Ability gains from levels are of course not figured into this, as this is 1st level figures.

I looked into the Conan d20 setting the other day, and found a new kind of rule. It seems that since Conan has perhaps less magic items that even a hard-case BR campaign, they had introduced a new rule for ability gains from level. In ADDITION to the normal gains, you got +11 to ALL abilities at lvls 6, 10, 14, and 18. Sounds pretty mean to men, but then again the characters won't even have Bull's Strength or any Headbands of Intellect +4...

Bjørn

...but I do think that rolling dice is the only REAL way of rolling up PCs, only some players are too scared (or too lawful, Michael)... ;-)

[Green Knight]

Hi,

I'd really warn against a point-for-point conversion between 2E and 3E for NPCs. It seems to me that designers tend to overdo NPC stats, just to get some bonuses for the NPC's key stats.

Remember that you needed a 15 (or usually 16) to get even a puny bonus in 2E...

B

[Angelbialaska]

I'm a fan of point based character generation. It gives a balance between the characters and it's all fair, there's none that outshine the others badly.

I can give an example from a D&D campaign I was in a couple or three years ago. The players rolled their characters. A couple of players got bad rolls, but not bad enough for rerolls, a couple got the okay rolls, where you have a few 14s and a 15. But one on the party did have someone watch over him. He ended out with an average of 17.3 (18, 18, 17, 17, 17, 16), with the lowest stat being a 16. The party was hard to play in. The ubercharacter outshined the other characters in almost all situations and it's not like you really want to tell a player to reroll the character because he has too good stats. I mean, then what's the whole point in rolling stats?

Since that time, I'm insisting on things being point based. No player outshines the other in stats, or if they do, then it's because of a conscious choice (such as the character with an 18 and little else).

[Green Knight]

The point is that some players hate points, while other love it (I'm a fan of rolling, since that was the only option back when I started RPGing).

So I give the player's the option to choose. You risk a bit with the dice, but sometimees it pays of. Thoose who roll usually end up with more extreme stats, and maybe they even get a little better stats average. But generally it balances out, and it is RARE to say the least that a character ends up with 16+ in all stats.

But if one of my players did, I'd be happy for him, and give him the opportunity to play this really extraordinary character...

B

[ConjurerDragon]

Green Knight schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=36&t=2896

>

> Green Knight wrote:

>...

>

>I looked into the Conan d20 setting the other day, and found a new kind of rule. It seems that since Conan has perhaps less magic items that even a hard-case BR campaign, they had introduced a new rule for ability gains from level. In ADDITION to the normal gains, you got +11 to ALL abilities at lvls 6, 10, 14, and 18. Sounds pretty mean to men, but then again the characters won`t even have Bull`s Strength or any Headbands of Intellect +4...

>

>

Really +11 to all abilitys? So an 18th level character would have +44 to

all his starting abilites?

Mmmh, Birthright really is a world in which magic is pretty rare also... ;-)



>...but I do think that rolling dice is the only REAL way of rolling up PCs, only some players are too scared (or too lawful, Michael)... ;-)

>

Isn´t that axiomatic nowadys?

But I have to concur with your sentence - the only way of ROLLING up

PC´s is to roll dice...

Rolling Dice is only balanced if you play a lot of different characters

and bad and good or excellent rolls balance each other out.

For the one character you might play for a year or so it can mean that

he is crippled or outshines the other players even at tasks that are not

his specialty - neither is desirable.

bye

Michael

[Osprey]

I echo Green Knight's opinions - I like the element of chance in ability rolls. If I wanted things less chancy, I wouldn't use dice-based RPG systems (certainly not the ever-random d20 system!).

I generally like my PC's to have raw ability scores, it gives them access to more feats and generally better survivability and versatility (something that D&D characters still lack IMO). Especially if you're only running a small party of PC's (less than 4), D&D can be very harsh to them. CR's and EL's seem to be based on on a party of PC specialists (single class characters) - a party of all multiclass characters is almost always weaker as a group. But in small groups, the multiclass versatility is necessary to keep things interesting and diverse.

So in a point-based system...yeah, I'd give more points in general, but I'd also alter it according to how many PC's I expect to be participating through the campaign, and the general level of challenge you plan to throw at them as a DM.

Osprey

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by ConjurerDragon@Jan 7 2005, 04:50 PM
Really +11 to all abilitys? So an 18th level character would have +44 to all his starting abilites? Mmmh, Birthright really is a world in which magic is pretty rare also...
No, the ability increases at lvl 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 are still the same - only for 1 stat. Only those for levels 6, 10, 14, and 18 are for all stats. But it's still pretty much...didn't say I liked it even, just wanted to let you know.

B

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by Osprey@Jan 7 2005, 04:52 PM
Especially if you're only running a small party of PC's (less than 4), D&D can be very harsh to them. CR's and EL's seem to be based on on a party of PC specialists (single class characters) - a party of all multiclass characters is almost always weaker as a group. But in small groups, the multiclass versatility is necessary to keep things interesting and diverse.
This I most definitely agree with. DnD is really for 4-6 players, all of them narrowly focuse specialists, maxed out in their areas of expertise. In small parties with only 2-3 people (or maybe a single one), its harder...

B

[Don E]

Originally posted by Green Knight@Jan 7 2005, 08:16 PM
This I most definitely agree with. DnD is really for 4-6 players, all of them narrowly focuse specialists, maxed out in their areas of expertise. In small parties with only 2-3 people (or maybe a single one), its harder...
If you're a lone ranger in the forest it doesn't help no matter how good you abilities are as long as you roll poorly enough with the dice...

E

[Green Knight]

Originally posted by Don E@Jan 8 2005, 01:19 AM
If you're a lone ranger in the forest it doesn't help no matter how good you abilities are as long as you roll poorly enough with the dice...

E
This is a man speaking of personal, bitter experience. Might I have been the DM, and this ranger on his way from north Shieldhaven in search of employment and adventure?

B