The Shadow World's parallellism

[Lawgiver]

Its said that beings that exist in Cerilia's 'real world' have an equivalent version in the Shadow World. If the shadow world equivalent to a Cerilian peson were killed would Cerilian version die? Does the Shadow World version perish when the Cerilian version dies?

[blitzmacher]

I wouldn't think so, or somewhere in one of the books it would talk about a lot of unexplained deaths.

[Raesene Andu]

Or you could use Rich Baker's version of the SW (as set out in The Shadow Stone) as a dark, empty realm not filled with anyone in particular.

[Vroman]

According to Bloodspawn a seelie comes into being for each elf that is born. My general theory is that the Shadow World is a parasite that draws its base reality from the BR world. If the Seeming is not guided by a skilled force like the Queen of the Seelie Court or the Cold Rider, then it taps into the real world for inspiration. The Seeming maps the dreams of mortals or simply tries to copy the real world when it lacks any other direction. Thoughts?

[Perhelion]

I like that concept of the Shadow World copying, craving for Cerilia... It could lead to interesting developments. Is the place semi-conscious? What does it hunger after? Reality?
Then the idea of intelligent beings born of the SW but possessing true intelligence being able to order it as they like (as in Bloodspawn) sounds nice. Would they have to fight the shadow world itself and impose their vision of it against its chaos and hunger? (I'm probably repeating what was already in the book but I haven't read it for a while)
What is the role of the Cold Rider?
How do the Seelie Courts interact with/react to Cerilia?

[Vroman]

The Seelie Court and its counterpart the Unseelie Court interact with Cerelia very rarely if it all as they are deeply tied to the shadow world. Of course a DM could expand their roles. It is possible for heroes of Cerelia to go there but they would not be allowed to remember their journey. (as outlined in Bloodspawn(BS))

Again, I draw upon the BS supplement for inspiration. The BS suggests that Azrai was a God of Chaos and Change before becoming what he is known as today. The Shadow World was his home and its mutable abilities reflected his power over the plane and his godly portfolio. It is possible he is responsible for the creation of the earliest races of Aebrynis.

How the old god became Azrai is an untold story but as the change occurred so did the Shadow World. It became a darker place. Then came Diesmaar and the end of the old gods. When Azrai was destroyed along with the rest of them, much of his essence went to his champions Kriesha and Belinik. The power released also opened rifts to the shadow world as well. I believe Azrai dumped a portion of his power there too. The reason is because he had a champion there as well, that being would become the Cold Rider. During the momentus events of Diesmaar, another war was taking place on the Shadow World. The Queen of the Seelie court realized the corruption of Azrai and battled his shadow minions with her faerie folk for the survival of her people.

When the gods died, the shadow world like Aebrynis was changed forever. What remained of Azrai's essence after his his power was absorbed by his three champions is what drives the shadow world. It is the foundation for the Seeming. It is why it mimics and sucks away at Aebrynis because of Azrai's desire to rule that world is reflected in the Shadow World.

Thoughts and comments?

[Perhelion]

Im not sure I like the idea that Azrai came from the SW... I think i prefer him to be a Cerilian god that 'invaded' the SW and tapped its power, perverting it in the process.
Other idea... what if it was Cerilia that actually seeped into the SW, forcing its reality on it and its denizens, maddening them in the process? In that case the Seelie courts would have much the same attitiude vs. Cerilians as the elves vs. humans.

[Eisel Miloh]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver

Its said that beings that exist in Cerilia's 'real world' have an equivalent version in the Shadow World. If the shadow world equivalent to a Cerilian peson were killed would Cerilian version die? Does the Shadow World version perish when the Cerilian version dies?

Not based on anything but fantasy, I've always liked to think of that aspect of the Shadow World as being like the King/Straub Territories. There are counterparts in the Shadow World to most of us, though sometimes in Cerilia there is one who is special and without counterpart (or counterfeit as the case may be). If perhaps your counterpart is vanquished, you might suffer a broken toe. Or vica versa, of course. It's a thought I've always wanted to play with in a campaign.
Just my two spells worth.

[Arlen Blaede]

I have always seen the blood of Azrai as perverting everything that it comes in contact with. For my two cents I have always felt that it was Azrai's power that perverted the shadow world into something that was darker then before.

Somewhere I read that the shadow was made of substance without form. There anything is possible and nothing is permanent or stable. I have the understanding that it is infinitely mutable. Explains why shadow magic is so versatile.

If you have ever read the "Nine Princes of Amber" series then you know what I am saying when I mention the comparison of the Shadow World to the Courts of Chaos. The imagery fits for me as do quite a few of the motivations.

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver

Its said that beings that exist in Cerilia's 'real world' have an equivalent version in the Shadow World. If the shadow world equivalent to a Cerilian peson were killed would Cerilian version die? Does the Shadow World version perish when the Cerilian version dies?

I believe that the Shadow World version would like to kill the Cerilian person and thus gains more power in the Shadow World. Thus it is actually beneficial to kill the Shadow World version before it kills you.

[marcum uth mather]

i think onlyurealy inportent people ( like scions) would have a shadow world counterpart. i have never read blood spawn( i am working on downloading as i am computer eliterate) but with scions and there divine blood i play they have a impact on the malible shadow.

[A_dark]

The perversion of the SW had started before the battle on Deismaar. That is because thehalflings had already left the SW when Deismaar took place. So it had already been corrupted. Perhaps the idea that Azrai went there to take its power makes some sense.

I do not like the idea that Azrai was from the SW or even that he was a god of change and chaos. If nothing else, I always assumed that he would be LE rather than CE. Aside from that, I remember reading that Azrai was the god of knowledge and knowledge corrupts, so he was corrupted. Perhaps it was in Bloodspawn, perhaps in some other book, I cannot really remember.

The SW is definitely seepin in Cerilia and not the other way around (though of course, the DM can do what he wants). I mainly say this, based on the description of the Tuar Annwn in Vosgaard, where the elves, have totally opened up themselves to SW, dropped all wards and protections and they are one.

I liked the idea that the SW wants reality and that it is "sentient". It would make sense for the Birthright world, since Aebrynnis is also sentient. It has ancient sources and ley lines that the land itself controls and it has the mebhaighl flowing and do not forget the Land's Choice investiture option. It clearly says that the land is alive, so it would be nice if the SW was alive as well.

I do not think that there are mirrors in people between SW and Aebrynnis. As far as I am concerned the mirror effect applies only to locations and not actual people. But that is only my personal opinion.

I liked the Dream ideas and the info on those that control the Seeming, though I would think that most creatures in SW have some limited control over it and that the Cold Rider or the Queen have a greater control. Perhaps this control is amplified by blood? Who knows :)

my two cents

[Lord Eldred]

I like a lot of what A Dark says except for that there are not mirrors of people. I play it as there is a Shade equal for each person and that Shade is threat to the characters ability to reach their god in the afterworld and a threat to return through resurrection (see posts on subject in the Book of Days).

[Ariadne]

I also don't have "bloodspawn" but in my imagination of the shadow-world there is only the countryside equal to Cerilia. In my opinion there live only undead (such as spectres, skeletons or Liches) and some sort of shadow creatures. I don't think there are counterparts of living creatures there who can battle each other.

[Lord Eldred]

Ariadne, you say you don't believe there is counterparts, why?

It is the shadow world. It could be both a shadow of the land as well as people.

[soudhadies]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Ariadne, you say you don't believe there is counterparts, why?

It is the shadow world. It could be both a shadow of the land as well as people.

Let us assume for a minute that there are shadow counterparts: How did they come to be?

As far as I recall at the point of origin the shadow world and the living world were physically alike but populated by different peoples: The halflings in the one, and cerilian and human races in the other. At what point in time would a race of shadow counterparts spring into being?

I have a vision of the shadowworld similar to Eldred's, except that instead of individual shades standing in the way between a person and the afterlife, the entire shadow world does, as a plane that must be travelled across to make it to the other side. Those who do not make it become trapped there and become the denizens of the shadowworld. I see this strategic placement between the world of the living and the world of the dead as the reason that the corrupter was attracted to the shadowworld in the first place.

[Lord Eldred]

I having worked all the details out yet. however some things have pointed me to thinking that the connection is more than just the same land. Most imprtantly, there are the same structures. This hinted at on page 88 of the rulebook when it says "A musty, aged crypt may hold nothing but moldering bones in Cerilia, but if one were to enter the same crypt in the Shadow World-or even on a night when the Shadow WOrld was near-wights, spectres, or worse might be encountered." If the same crypts exist, wouldn't the same people who built the crypts exist? I don't know.

If you want to believe that it wasn't always this way, I would say that when the Cold Rider came and drove out the Halflings, he did so by bringing the shadows with him/her.

[soudhadies]

The structures certainly could arise from this sort of parallelism, but they could just as easily be created by the souls that don't make it across the plane (as I mentioned in my interpretation) in a feeble attempt to recreate their living world. These structures could arise as much spiritually as physically (think hell in the movie What Dreams May Come) and serve as a prison for the spritually weak.

[Lord Eldred]

Would the souls create every structure that existed or only the ones that they were involved with? I like your interpretation, however to make it work I would have to change the way I view resurrection (see postings in Book of Days). I will have to consider the way you do it.

[soudhadies]

The souls would recreate the structures they were involved with. However, this would be done in a dreamlike manner. What I mean by this is that in dreams what is most immediate and present is most real, while what is on the periphery is less detailed and substantial(misty and dreamlike if you will). Thus the objects at the center of a shade's world would be detailed and very real while what is less important would be nearly insubstantial. While an individual spirit might thus create a house and a street leading to a place of work, an entire city would be created by the collective "dreaming" of its undead inhabitants.

I tend to avoid dealing with resurrection as much as possible in my campaigns, as the political and power ramifications are too convoluted for my taste and detract from my feeling of the Birthright atmospere. Thus it and wish spells are off my spell lists for Birthright.

However, if I were to reconcile the concept to my cosmological view of the place of the shadow world, I might do it thus:

There are several requirements for resurrection to take place successfully. First of all, the character's spirit must still exist. Secondly, the character must be willing to be raised. Finally, the spirit must make the return trip across the planes to its body.

Thus if the spirit was destroyed in the shadow world, found its way back into Cerilia and was destroyed, or was destroyed somewhere in the outer planes, then nothing will be able to raise the character.

The spirit experiences the resurrection spell as a distant calling of its name. If it follows the sound of the voice it will inevitably retrace its steps to the mortal world. If the sould is impeded from moving(trapped by some lich lord of something similar) then they must be rescued before the can go on (a la Orpheus and Eurydice). Furthermore, the spirit must again face the dangers of traversing the shadow world.

If the spirit was trapped in the shadow world the the situation is more complicated. The spirit may not even be aware of its death. Under such circumstances those seeking to raise the character must go to the Shadow World, seek him out and convince him to return to the real world.

Of course this is all a rough outline, but I think it may work and would be a traumatic enough experience to keep players from undertaking death lightly.

[Ariadne]

@ Lord Eldred:

You wrote allready: "A musty, aged crypt may hold nothing but moldering bones in Cerilia, but if one were to enter the same crypt in the Shadow World-or even on a night when the Shadow WOrld was near-wights, spectres, or worse might be encountered."

In my oppinion in the shadow-world are only undead creatures, but I think the only shadow of Cerilia is the Countryside. May be the shadow of a scion IS an undead, but in my oppinion he isn't slayn if the undead is!


@ Bearcat:

How long does a spirit travel to the outer planes in your interpretation (If he is resurrected immidiatly, his spirit can't be so far away)?
Why do you cancel whish and resurrection spells (I don't think there are so many Wizards/ Priests, who can cast them)?

I don't think spirits can be destroyed (if the person worshiped a deity) because the deity would protect it. The deity wants the spirit to be in his realm, I think, because the fact of increasing his power (or may be to reward or punish the spirit).

[Lord Eldred]

The Shadow World was not always full of undead. The halfling race once populated the countryside until the Cold Rider came.

However you are right my construct would not work with an UNDEAD duplicate of the characters. So I am thinking that it is an evil creation of the Cold Rider. Who creates a Shade duplicate upon the death of a person and instructs the Shade to capture the spirit of the dead person before it reaches the plane of the Gods. If the Shade is successful the spirit becomes a Shade itself and serves the Cold Rider. The duplicate Shade is then disappears.

What do you think?

[soudhadies]

Ariadne said:

How long does a spirit travel to the outer planes in your interpretation (If he is resurrected immidiatly, his spirit can't be so far away)?
Why do you cancel whish and resurrection spells (I don't think there are so many Wizards/ Priests, who can cast them)?


I don't have rule books with casting times at my disposal, but I would say it would probably take that much time, or a day perhaps. Of course I pull out the time functions differently on different planes to say that it could appear to take much longer for the spirit involved. If the spirit is impeded from returning somehow then the caster would be aware of how after the casting was complete (just to make it easier on the characters).

I see Birthright as being a mostly low-magic campaign (with realm magic being a somewhat obvious but rare exception) there fore I have exercised my right as DM and removed wish spells from my campaign because of the ramifications of the potential of altering reality.

As for resurrection, I feel as if I am following precedent, as no resurrections seem to have been granted in the past, especially in such extreme cases as that of Micheal Roele. It seems to me that if the gods weren't feelign like making exceptions then then they certainly won't make any now.



I don't think spirits can be destroyed (if the person worshiped a deity) because the deity would protect it. The deity wants the spirit to be in his realm, I think, because the fact of increasing his power (or may be to reward or punish the spirit).


Very well, you could say that as the spirit creates a physical, but distorted view of the real world around itself, so to does it create a new physical form for itself while in the Shadow World: an equally distorted undead body. Destroying the undead releases the spirit to attempt to reach the after life again.

[soudhadies]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

However you are right my construct would not work with an UNDEAD duplicate of the characters. So I am thinking that it is an evil creation of the Cold Rider. Who creates a Shade duplicate upon the death of a person and instructs the Shade to capture the spirit of the dead person before it reaches the plane of the Gods. If the Shade is successful the spirit becomes a Shade itself and serves the Cold Rider. The duplicate Shade is then disappears.

What do you think?

I like that a lot! It would help me explain how spirits get trapped in my vision of the shadow world in the first place. It also has a diabolical scheming nature that I find appealing.

Are you familiar with the folkloric doppelganger (not the D&D version)? Its a type of evil spirit double that exists, one per person. When your doppleganger finds you it means that the hour of your death is upon you.

[Ariadne]

Arrrgh....if I think of this interpretation I would prefer, characters (of cause good only) would not die!

[Lord Eldred]

Bearcat, I am not familiar with that folklore but it is the concept I am applying in the Shadow World.

Ariadne, if it makes you feel better you could give characters of good alignment an extra advantage given to them by their god for good service. This would provide a greater chance that the character survives the fight and reaches their final destination place.

[Lord Eldred]

Ariadne,

Where do all the undead come from if you don't accept our interpretation? How exactly does it happen?

[blitzmacher]

Perhaps there's another reason there are undead in the SW. In Dungeon Mag. issue 59, there is a BR adventure called "seeking bloodsilver". It takes place at the Gates of Doom, mostly on the shadow world side of it. There is one undead healer named Maeve who had served in the doomed Anuirean army and perished with it, and now behaves exactly opposite as in life. There is also one called Anuvier who controls the SW citadel that lies there. He was the Aniurean general who led his army into the ambush at Mhelliviene. The adventure states that he must "live" forever with that disgrace, with the SW preserving his rotten corpse. This leads me to think that the SW might be a place where the new gods may have been sending those that have failed them.
Just another view.

[soudhadies]

That seems a little harsh coming from the good deities. Especially for the healer. Although I don't have the adventure I'm sure he went out doing his best to keep the wounded together. While certainly Gods can punish those they desire by refusing to accept them into the afterlife (like the stupid general), unless the gods are particularly vengeful it wouldn't explain the huge numbers of undead that populate the shadow world.

[Ariadne]

@ Lord Eldred:


Ariadne, if it makes you feel better you could give characters of good alignment an extra advantage given to them by their god for good service. This would provide a greater chance that the character survives the fight and reaches their final destination place.

I can agree with this interpretation...

Where he undead come from? Don't know, from some wizards with perveted thoughts, I think...


@ Blitzmacher:

I agree with Bearcat, that this act of punishment is not realy compatible with a good alignment of some gods. Especially Nesirie, but also Cuiraécen with his chaotic nature wouldn't do this to anyone of his followers (never even the evil)! Naturally neutral and evil gods might punish their worshipers like this.

[Lord Eldred]

My theory is not incompatible with Blitzmacher. Those two he mentioned did not beat their shadow. Both characters were unsuccessful in following their faith to the fullest, thus the Gods didn't punish them but didn't give them the bonus that I indicated to Ariadne. The Cold Riders evil was able to keep them as servants in the Shadow World.

[blitzmacher]

That seems a little harsh coming from the good deities

I agree with Bearcat, that this act of punishment is not realy compatible with a good alignment of some gods. Especially Nesirie, but also Cuiraécen with his chaotic nature wouldn't do this to anyone of his followers (never even the evil)! Naturally neutral and evil gods might punish their worshipers like this.

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How does a good god punish?

[Lord Eldred]

Good gods punish in the same way that good parents do!

[Ariadne]

Originally posted by blitzmacher

How does a good god punish?
I agree with Lord Eldred. A god like Cuiraécen would strip a priest from his spells first (from high to low level [a great punishment, if you ask me]). A worshiper could feel his sword glow of electricity (with only a little damage, of cause). This should be warning enough! If the worshiper or priest continues his behavior, he would let a lightning bold strike near by. In my oppinion the worshiper or priest must have done an increadible failure/ blasphemie, if the lightning bolt hits....

[blitzmacher]

I tend to go along with what I think of terms in real life.
To the christian religion God would be considered good. Yet those failures burn in hell. The brave warriors who die in battle go to Valhalla, where do the not brave, or foolish, warriors go?

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In my oppinion the worshiper or priest must have done an increadible failure/ blasphemie, if the lightning bolt hits....
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Then this blasphemis person goes and sits by his god after his god killed him with the lightning bolt?

[Ariadne]

Orginally posted by blitzmacher

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In my oppinion the worshiper or priest must have done an increadible failure/ blasphemie, if the lightning bolt hits....
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Then this blasphemis person goes and sits by his god after his god killed him with the lightning bolt?
I think so, but naturally this person wouldn't be ever in the inner circle until his spirit does something to atone it...

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by blitzmacher

I tend to go along with what I think of terms in real life.
To the christian religion God would be considered good. Yet those failures burn in hell. The brave warriors who die in battle go to Valhalla, where do the not brave, or foolish, warriors go?

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In my oppinion the worshiper or priest must have done an increadible failure/ blasphemie, if the lightning bolt hits....
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Then this blasphemis person goes and sits by his god after his god killed him with the lightning bolt?

A good parent sometimes has to punish a child severely because the child did something greatly wrong. The parent still loves the child and accepts them with open arms when they are ready to admit they did wrong. So yes the person MAY end up sitting next to the god who killed him with the lightning bolt or might be stuck somewhere else until he realizes his sins.

As for the god of earth...he will not sentence to you hell if you ask for forgiveness!

[blitzmacher]

So take these two trapped souls. They weren't killed by their god, but by their foolish actions. Then their punishment maybe confined to the SW until they realize their mistakes, a kind of purgatory for the lost but not forgotten.

[Lord Eldred]

Exactly!!!!!