How it should have been

[Tim Nutting]

We can only hope on some of this stuff, but I am left with an empty feeling
in my stomach.

The role-playing world is slowly dying because there is no more excitement
(what the hell happened to marketing this stuff!?) In fact my local shops
//still// have original run items (domain books, rulebooks, etc) lying on
the shelf at half price because RPG stuff doesn't move anymore. It's gone
from one shops 30% revenue to less than 7% revenue.

We're being killed by beanie babies, trading cards, and puzzles. What
gives!?

Finally, last I heard, WotC was under a federal injunction of some kind,
under investigation for unfair business practices, hoarding of material (to
drive up prices) and monopolization (trying to hedge out retailers).

History teaches us that no one listens to history (irony... ain't it great?)
Marvel almost killed comics five years ago by doing the exact same thing.
Only the presence of Image and other upstarts saved the comic book industry.
Marvel has never again achieved their old market dominance, to my
understanding.

I wonder if anyone up high (besides Ed, who is fantastic for still reading
this list!) is listening. I'd get lonely being the only one at work to
support a project too.
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[Cobos]

I came over a strange link when I was surfing around today...
take look at this page, just click on the html files.....


http://members.tripod.com/~neonflux/reviews_birthright/

Sindre :((((((
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[Binagran]

Sindre Berg wrote:

> I came over a strange link when I was surfing around today...
> take look at this page, just click on the html files.....
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~neonflux/reviews_birthright/
>
> Sindre :((((((
>

Man, to think what could have been, and what still might be.

Binagran
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[Tommy Ashton II]

Soviet wrote:
>
> what were these supposed to be? future suplements?
>
The higher powers were supposed rerelease an updated Core Rules, in July
or June of last year I believe. They were then going to release the
Book of Regency (the one I looked forward to most) and the Esscence of
Evil series in the following fall and winter quarters. With the buyout
of TSR followed by the higher powers placing the line on an unknown
hiatus, these books were lost to the Shadow World. :) In fact TSR
pulled all evidence of their existance, including photos, from their
website. Sindre finding these is pretty cool, Thanks Sindre! There are
various rumors that the supplements were indeed finished and readied for
print but are just sitting in the TSR offices collecting dust. One of
two reasons I would love to be a cat burgular (Catherine Zeta Jones
being the other. :) )

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[Andrew Morris]

Sindre Berg writes...
> I came over a strange link when I was surfing around today...
> take look at this page, just click on the html files.....
We've decided to kill ourselves....
Andrew & Annika "Death before Dishonor!" Morris


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[Wordbuilder]

I doubt the mentioned products will ever see print.
Alas. There is still hope however. TSR released the
unpublished Savage Coast material online. Perhaps
they'll do the same thing with unpublished Birthright
material. Barring that, well... I have metal cutters
in the garage and a black shirt.

wb



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[Soviet]

what were these supposed to be? future suplements?

Sindre Berg wrote:

> I came over a strange link when I was surfing around today...
> take look at this page, just click on the html files.....
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~neonflux/reviews_birthright/
>
> Sindre :((((((
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
> with the line
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[Herald Williams]

I think your first scenario is more likely. Birthright is a great
campaign setting and if they do a good job with 3rd edition and smooth
some of the rough edges off Birthright, they would have a killer
combination. I'd like to think that's what they're up to.

That said, I have no intention of buying any 3rd edition core books. I
already have 1st and 2nd and play a combo version. However, I have
absolutely no objection to seeing the unreleased BR products converted
to 3rd edition rules (whatever they end up being) and put on the
market. I can easily convert them back.

Herald Williams


Olesens wrote:
>

>
> Yeah, maybe their secret plan is to convert the BR rules to AD&D 3rd Edition and
> release them at nearly the same time. Since BRers are generally older, they
> will be the crowd less likely to convert to 3rd edition unless: (see below)
>
> Want to use those nifty new 3rd Edition rules in a campaign setting? Buy
> Birthright.
>
> OR
>
> Want to be able to play the newest Birthright stuff around? Buy AD&D 3rd
> Edition.
>
> Sounds brilliant. Anyone with words why this wouldn't be a good move for TSR?
> If not, then maybe we should let 'em know (in case they didn't think of it).
> Birthright defenitly has potencial (I've heard tons of "I hated AD&D until
> Birthright" stories) and maybe you'd get more non-AD&Ders to join AD&D because
> they like the sound of Birthright and would be more willing to give the new
> rules a chance. Anyone with more knowlage on the subject care to speak up?
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
> with the line 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
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[JNeighb934@aol.co]

Doesn't that just suck?!? There they are, all printed up with a cover and
everything, just ready to go and they won't let us have them. Hell, I don't
understand why we can't special order them. But I wonder if they are
considering re-releasing Birthright when AD&D 3rd edition comes out. After
all, that would be the best time to release a new edition rules book, so
maybe WotC put the new stuff on hold because they new they'd be doing a 3rd
edition and it would be better financially to release the new materials at
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[Olesens]

JNeighb934@aol.com wrote:

> Doesn't that just suck?!? There they are, all printed up with a cover and
> everything, just ready to go and they won't let us have them. Hell, I don't
> understand why we can't special order them. But I wonder if they are
> considering re-releasing Birthright when AD&D 3rd edition comes out. After
> all, that would be the best time to release a new edition rules book, so
> maybe WotC put the new stuff on hold because they new they'd be doing a 3rd
> edition and it would be better financially to release the new materials at
> that time.

Yeah, maybe their secret plan is to convert the BR rules to AD&D 3rd Edition and
release them at nearly the same time. Since BRers are generally older, they
will be the crowd less likely to convert to 3rd edition unless: (see below)

Want to use those nifty new 3rd Edition rules in a campaign setting? Buy
Birthright.

OR

Want to be able to play the newest Birthright stuff around? Buy AD&D 3rd
Edition.

Sounds brilliant. Anyone with words why this wouldn't be a good move for TSR?
If not, then maybe we should let 'em know (in case they didn't think of it).
Birthright defenitly has potencial (I've heard tons of "I hated AD&D until
Birthright" stories) and maybe you'd get more non-AD&Ders to join AD&D because
they like the sound of Birthright and would be more willing to give the new
rules a chance. Anyone with more knowlage on the subject care to speak up?
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[Soviet]

Isn't there anyway Tsr will release those books in any format(Electronic could
be a good idea) or at the very least publish them in Dragon magazine (just like
they did with greyhawk supplements when Greyhawk was thought to be
dead)....those module series look good....

Binagran wrote:

> Sindre Berg wrote:
>
> > I came over a strange link when I was surfing around today...
> > take look at this page, just click on the html files.....
> >
> > http://members.tripod.com/~neonflux/reviews_birthright/
> >
> > Sindre :((((((
> >
>
> Man, to think what could have been, and what still might be.
>
> Binagran
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
> with the line
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[Olesens]

Herald Williams wrote:

> I think your first scenario is more likely.

They are both the same thing. The first is from a non-BRer's PoV and the second is
from a BRer's PoV.

>
>
> Olesens wrote:
>
> > Want to use those nifty new 3rd Edition rules in a campaign setting? Buy
> > Birthright.
> >
> > OR
> >
> > Want to be able to play the newest Birthright stuff around? Buy AD&D 3rd
> > Edition.
> >
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[Ed Stark]

At 08:59 AM 6/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Soviet wrote:
>>
>> what were these supposed to be? future suplements?
>>
>The higher powers were supposed rerelease an updated Core Rules, in July
>or June of last year I believe. They were then going to release the
>Book of Regency (the one I looked forward to most) and the Esscence of
>Evil series in the following fall and winter quarters. With the buyout
>of TSR followed by the higher powers placing the line on an unknown
>hiatus, these books were lost to the Shadow World. :) In fact TSR
>pulled all evidence of their existance, including photos, from their
>website. Sindre finding these is pretty cool, Thanks Sindre! There are
>various rumors that the supplements were indeed finished and readied for
>print but are just sitting in the TSR offices collecting dust. One of
>two reasons I would love to be a cat burgular (Catherine Zeta Jones
>being the other. :) )

Before anyone turns to larceny ;-), let me set the record straight ...

1. The BR Revised Edition is/was not finished at the time of its removal
from the schedule. It was stopped before editing, essentially, and most of
the new material was pretty rough. It included a non-warcard mass combat
system (still very light on rules, heavy on "getting the war out of the way
so you can do other things) and some material that was intended to expand
on the adventuring in Cerilia sections and de-emphasize the "you have to
play a king" aspects of the game.

2. The Book of Regency was finished in design and, I'm pretty sure, in
editing. I'm still hoping to get it posted to the website at some point,
but no such luck so far.

3. Hogunmark was finished and printed, but made available as a special
promotion for the RPGA. Since an RPGA membership cost $20 and you'd get
Hogunmark, several issues of Polyhedron (6?), and other freebies, it was a
no-brainer. Join RPGA, get all that stuff for $20. I believe the RPGA may
have a few left, but you'd have to talk to them.

4. Bloodspawn and The Shadow Moon (the two Shadow World projects in
development when they were pulled) were in various stages of unfinished.
Bloodspawn, IMO, looked pretty good, but needed some development time.
Shadow Moon needed some heavy playtesting, IMO, but was about what I'd say
two-thirds of the way done through the design process. Very rough, and
completely unedited.

5. Rich Baker's novel Falcon and the Wolf was finished but never released.
Again, this is something I'd like to get made available on the web, but
that's even trickier than Book of Regency, since it involves an author's
ownership (novels are handled differently than game books when they are
cancelled, since we don't have people working on staff time writing novels).

That's the status. Not much to report, but hopefully misinformation is
downgraded.
Ed (or "Ted," or "T'Ed," or whatever) Stark
Creative Director, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons
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[Joe & Jodi Walder]

> 1. The BR Revised Edition is/was not finished at the time of its removal
> from the schedule. It was stopped before editing, essentially, and most of
> the new material was pretty rough. It included a non-warcard mass combat
> system (still very light on rules, heavy on "getting the war out of the way
> so you can do other things) and some material that was intended to expand
> on the adventuring in Cerilia sections and de-emphasize the "you have to
> play a king" aspects of the game.

Darn, that would have been great if the new mass combat rules had been
fleshed-out a little more before being put to bed. Also the idea of promoting
adventuring in Cerilia without having to be a regent would definitely bring in
players that couldn't be bothered handling a realm, temple, guild, or source.
I've received some gripping from players who "think" that the Birthright series
focuses on the regent player character and has very little to do with the
non-blooded folk -- I had to correct this problem myself by producing balance
between the two sides.

> 2. The Book of Regency was finished in design and, I'm pretty sure, in
> editing. I'm still hoping to get it posted to the website at some point,
> but no such luck so far.

Can we start a collection to bribe some of the higher-ups at WOC to release
this? Seriously, I think Ed is well aware that, next to the Shadow World stuff,
this is one of THE books we need. Anything that dives deeper into regency would
definitely add character to the bare-bones information that we have now.
Keeping pushing to get it posted at WOC's website Ed!

> 3. Hogunmark was finished and printed, but made available as a special
> promotion for the RPGA. Since an RPGA membership cost $20 and you'd get
> Hogunmark, several issues of Polyhedron (6?), and other freebies, it was a
> no-brainer. Join RPGA, get all that stuff for $20. I believe the RPGA may
> have a few left, but you'd have to talk to them.

I've already gripped about this before, so I'll do it again (no offense to any
RPGA members). I didn't like this decision and I still don't like it today that
the Hogunmark accessory was released to the RPGA only. That's alienating those
of us who aren't members but buy Birthright products. I guess I'll have to
contact the RPGA on this, but I don't like it.

> 4. Bloodspawn and The Shadow Moon (the two Shadow World projects in
> development when they were pulled) were in various stages of unfinished.
> Bloodspawn, IMO, looked pretty good, but needed some development time.
> Shadow Moon needed some heavy playtesting, IMO, but was about what I'd say
> two-thirds of the way done through the design process. Very rough, and
> completely unedited.

I'd like to start a collection for this project today! I hope that WOC picks up
where the Birthright team left off and get these things published or posted on
the web. Man we need this stuff! All of the accessories that have been
released barely touch on the Shadow World. If I had a choice between the Book
of Regency or any of the Shadow World stuff, I'd pick the Shadow World stuff.

> 5. Rich Baker's novel Falcon and the Wolf was finished but never released.
> Again, this is something I'd like to get made available on the web, but
> that's even trickier than Book of Regency, since it involves an author's
> ownership (novels are handled differently than game books when they are
> cancelled, since we don't have people working on staff time writing novels).

Some of the novels were great (i.e., The Iron Throne), others were kinda weak
(i.e., War). I would have liked to read this novel, but I guess we're just not
going to see it -- sorry folks, I'm a bit of a pessimist on this subject. Maybe
someday...

Ed, thanks for cleaning up some of the rumors that float around on this mailing
list from time to time. I hope that WOC is still treating you well and we all
wish you success there.

Joe
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[David Sean Brown]

> 2. The Book of Regency was finished in design and, I'm pretty sure, in
> editing. I'm still hoping to get it posted to the website at some point,
> but no such luck so far.

Glad to hear this is at least being sought after by someone with more pull
than us :) If there is anything we as a group can do to assist in making
this a reality, feel free to let us know!

Sean

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[Soviet]

>
>
> 1. The BR Revised Edition is/was not finished at the time of its removal
> from the schedule. It was stopped before editing, essentially, and most of
> the new material was pretty rough. It included a non-warcard mass combat
> system (still very light on rules, heavy on "getting the war out of the way
> so you can do other things) and some material that was intended to expand
> on the adventuring in Cerilia sections and de-emphasize the "you have to
> play a king" aspects of the game.
>

Couldn't you post this in a Dragon as an article?

>
> 2. The Book of Regency was finished in design and, I'm pretty sure, in
> editing. I'm still hoping to get it posted to the website at some point,
> but no such luck so far.
>

This will be extremely good.....

>
> 3. Hogunmark was finished and printed, but made available as a special
> promotion for the RPGA. Since an RPGA membership cost $20 and you'd get
> Hogunmark, several issues of Polyhedron (6?), and other freebies, it was a
> no-brainer. Join RPGA, get all that stuff for $20. I believe the RPGA may
> have a few left, but you'd have to talk to them.
>

I'll check upon that......

>
> 4. Bloodspawn and The Shadow Moon (the two Shadow World projects in
> development when they were pulled) were in various stages of unfinished.
> Bloodspawn, IMO, looked pretty good, but needed some development time.
> Shadow Moon needed some heavy playtesting, IMO, but was about what I'd say
> two-thirds of the way done through the design process. Very rough, and
> completely unedited.
>

too bad....they really looked good

>
> 5. Rich Baker's novel Falcon and the Wolf was finished but never released.
> Again, this is something I'd like to get made available on the web, but
> that's even trickier than Book of Regency, since it involves an author's
> ownership (novels are handled differently than game books when they are
> cancelled, since we don't have people working on staff time writing novels).

> That's the status. Not much to report, but hopefully misinformation is
> downgraded.
> Ed (or "Ted," or "T'Ed," or whatever) Stark
> Creative Director, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons
> Wizards of the Coast
> ************************************************** *************************
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
> with the line 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
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[Andrew Morris]

Ed writes,
> Before anyone turns to larceny ;-), let me set the record straight ...
>
> 2. The Book of Regency was finished in design and, I'm pretty sure, in
> editing. I'm still hoping to get it posted to the website at some point,
> but no such luck so far.
>
> 3. Hogunmark was finished and printed, but made available as a special
> promotion for the RPGA. Since an RPGA membership cost $20 and you'd get
> Hogunmark, several issues of Polyhedron (6?), and other freebies, it was a
> no-brainer. Join RPGA, get all that stuff for $20. I believe the RPGA may
> have a few left, but you'd have to talk to them.
>
Thanks to the man for setting this strait (even if the RPGA thing sucks). It
is good to know someone at WotC is on our side. As Sean B. said, if anything
can be done to help get the BOR on-line (even for sale) just ask. Andrew :-)


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[M Modena]

I would definately give me support to see this stuff get out

Mark

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe & Jodi Walder
To: birthright@lists.imagiconline.com
Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - How it should have been


>> 1. The BR Revised Edition is/was not finished at the time of its removal
>> from the schedule. It was stopped before editing, essentially, and most
of
>> the new material was pretty rough. It included a non-warcard mass combat
>> system (still very light on rules, heavy on "getting the war out of the
way
>> so you can do other things) and some material that was intended to expand
>> on the adventuring in Cerilia sections and de-emphasize the "you have to
>> play a king" aspects of the game.
>
>Darn, that would have been great if the new mass combat rules had been
>fleshed-out a little more before being put to bed. Also the idea of
promoting
>adventuring in Cerilia without having to be a regent would definitely bring
in
>players that couldn't be bothered handling a realm, temple, guild, or
source.
>I've received some gripping from players who "think" that the Birthright
series
>focuses on the regent player character and has very little to do with the
>non-blooded folk -- I had to correct this problem myself by producing
balance
>between the two sides.
>
>> 2. The Book of Regency was finished in design and, I'm pretty sure, in
>> editing. I'm still hoping to get it posted to the website at some point,
>> but no such luck so far.
>
>Can we start a collection to bribe some of the higher-ups at WOC to release
>this? Seriously, I think Ed is well aware that, next to the Shadow World
stuff,
>this is one of THE books we need. Anything that dives deeper into regency
would
>definitely add character to the bare-bones information that we have now.
>Keeping pushing to get it posted at WOC's website Ed!
>
>> 3. Hogunmark was finished and printed, but made available as a special
>> promotion for the RPGA. Since an RPGA membership cost $20 and you'd get
>> Hogunmark, several issues of Polyhedron (6?), and other freebies, it was
a
>> no-brainer. Join RPGA, get all that stuff for $20. I believe the RPGA may
>> have a few left, but you'd have to talk to them.
>
>I've already gripped about this before, so I'll do it again (no offense to
any
>RPGA members). I didn't like this decision and I still don't like it today
that
>the Hogunmark accessory was released to the RPGA only. That's alienating
those
>of us who aren't members but buy Birthright products. I guess I'll have to
>contact the RPGA on this, but I don't like it.
>
>> 4. Bloodspawn and The Shadow Moon (the two Shadow World projects in
>> development when they were pulled) were in various stages of unfinished.
>> Bloodspawn, IMO, looked pretty good, but needed some development time.
>> Shadow Moon needed some heavy playtesting, IMO, but was about what I'd
say
>> two-thirds of the way done through the design process. Very rough, and
>> completely unedited.
>
>I'd like to start a collection for this project today! I hope that WOC
picks up
>where the Birthright team left off and get these things published or posted
on
>the web. Man we need this stuff! All of the accessories that have been
>released barely touch on the Shadow World. If I had a choice between the
Book
>of Regency or any of the Shadow World stuff, I'd pick the Shadow World
stuff.
>
>> 5. Rich Baker's novel Falcon and the Wolf was finished but never
released.
>> Again, this is something I'd like to get made available on the web, but
>> that's even trickier than Book of Regency, since it involves an author's
>> ownership (novels are handled differently than game books when they are
>> cancelled, since we don't have people working on staff time writing
novels).
>
>Some of the novels were great (i.e., The Iron Throne), others were kinda
weak
>(i.e., War). I would have liked to read this novel, but I guess we're just
not
>going to see it -- sorry folks, I'm a bit of a pessimist on this subject.
Maybe
>someday...
>
>Ed, thanks for cleaning up some of the rumors that float around on this
mailing
>list from time to time. I hope that WOC is still treating you well and we
all
>wish you success there.
>
>Joe
>
>************************************************** *************************
>To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
>with the line 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>
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