Mages vs Wizards Redux

[JD Lail]

Last year I was involved in a discussion on this list concerning
what happens when an unblooded magician suddenly acquires a
blood line.

Some few of you were of the opinion that the Magician would not
not automatically become a Wizard. Would those of you who
participated in the thread address these 2 questions please ?

1) Does the character have a choice between the 2 classes
at the time when he acquires a new blood line ?
2) If the Magician can not gain true magic through blooding
how does he do so short of a wish or deity intervention ?

Thanks
Don Lail
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[Pieter Sleijpen]

J. D. Lail wrote:
>
> Last year I was involved in a discussion on this list concerning
> what happens when an unblooded magician suddenly acquires a
> blood line.
>
> Some few of you were of the opinion that the Magician would not
> not automatically become a Wizard. Would those of you who
> participated in the thread address these 2 questions please ?
>
> 1) Does the character have a choice between the 2 classes
> at the time when he acquires a new blood line ?
> 2) If the Magician can not gain true magic through blooding
> how does he do so short of a wish or deity intervention ?

I have not participated in that discussion, but I do know that blooded
persons can opt to become a magician instead of a true wizard. That
means that the two things are totally different classes. So the awnsers
would be "no" and "not" in my eyes. This because you can not dual class
between classes within the same group. If you really want to, you might
let him relearn magic in some sort of dual classing.

Pieter SleijpenTo unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
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[JNeighb934@aol.co]

In a message dated 06/11/99 3:12:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
jlail@foothills.net writes:

> 1) Does the character have a choice between the 2 classes
> at the time when he acquires a new blood line ?

Rogr Aglondier of Ilien is an example of a magician who became a wizard after
gaining a bloodline. I would allow a character in this situation to become a
mage, meaning he loses the specialization benefits, or to continue as an
illusionist or diviner but not specializing in both schools like a magician,
and also subject to opposition schools from then on; but of course the trade
off is they can now cast true magic from other schools.To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
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[Brian Stoner]

"J. D. Lail" wrote:

> 1) Does the character have a choice between the 2 classes
> at the time when he acquires a new blood line ?

Yes. Since blooded characters are allowed to choose whether to be a Magician
or Wizard when initially created, the same should hold if a non-blooded
character recieves a bloodline later on. The PC should lose the special
abilities, etc. that come with being a magician and become a regular wizard if
they choose to do so. As role played, the PC should not instantly know they
can cast true magic, but learn it as their relationship with magic has
changed. Then, they should realize the choice they have, but also the
consequences of the choice. Choosing to follow the path of a true wizard means
less time studying illusion and divination magic because of all the new magic
to explore. I would only allow the choice to be made once. After the
character has made this life-long decision, they must stick with it...barring
any unusual incidents in the future. (heh, as if unusual incidents were truly
unusual in fantasy).

Dearnen
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[Memnoch]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Brian Stoner
To: birthright@lists.imagiconline.com
Date: Friday, June 11, 1999 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Mages vs Wizards Redux


>
>
>"J. D. Lail" wrote:
>
>> 1) Does the character have a choice between the 2 classes
>> at the time when he acquires a new blood line ?
>
If you are using the dual-classing rules "as is", no. The magician in
question that gains the bloodline would merely gain the bloodline and become
a blooded magician. The difference between Magicians and Wizards is a
matter of training, and one cannot dual-class within the same class group.
Although, you may want to allow the magician the option of dropping his
magician class entirely and starting over as a wizard, at first level.

Memnoch
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[geeman]

Memnoch wrote:

> >"J. D. Lail" wrote:
> >
> >> 1) Does the character have a choice between the 2 classes
> >> at the time when he acquires a new blood line ?
> >
> If you are using the dual-classing rules "as is", no. The magician in
> question that gains the bloodline would merely gain the bloodline and become
> a blooded magician. The difference between Magicians and Wizards is a
> matter of training, and one cannot dual-class within the same class group.
> Although, you may want to allow the magician the option of dropping his
> magician class entirely and starting over as a wizard, at first level.

Technically, you're right. Though, I personally don't think the differences
between the magician class and the "true" wizard class is really significant
enough to make them a whole other character class. Magicians as a class really
exist because they can't be mages, which is unlike any other characer class. It
seems unfair to me to keep a character a magician if he somehow gains a
bloodline and wants to use true magic, especially with the example of Rogr
Aglondier out there. RA might have not been a real magician when he gained his
bloodline, or he might have changed his class in violation of the rules. We
really don't know.

I'd suggest, however, that there might be a compromise. What if you let a
character change his class from magician to mage when he gains a bloodline
provided that he:

1. Loses all weapon proficiencies that are allowed to magicians and not mages.
(I'd let him pick new ones, but I'm a softy.)
2. Loses his spell bonuses for divination/illusion schools.
3. Drops 1 level in experience the same way he does when changing alignment.

This would seem to be a nice solution to both the possibility of a character
gaining a bloodline AND explain how Aglondier has the write up that he does....

Gary
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[Memnoch]

- -----Original Message-----
From: GeeMan
To: birthright@lists.imagiconline.com
Date: Friday, June 11, 1999 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Mages vs Wizards Redux


>Technically, you're right. Though, I personally don't think the
differences
>between the magician class and the "true" wizard class is really
significant
>enough to make them a whole other character class. Magicians as a class
really
>exist because they can't be mages, which is unlike any other characer
class. It
>seems unfair to me to keep a character a magician if he somehow gains a
>bloodline and wants to use true magic, especially with the example of Rogr
>Aglondier out there. RA might have not been a real magician when he gained
his
>bloodline, or he might have changed his class in violation of the rules.
We
>really don't know.
>
>I'd suggest, however, that there might be a compromise. What if you let a
>character change his class from magician to mage when he gains a bloodline
>provided that he:
>
>1. Loses all weapon proficiencies that are allowed to magicians and not
mages.
>(I'd let him pick new ones, but I'm a softy.)
>2. Loses his spell bonuses for divination/illusion schools.
>3. Drops 1 level in experience the same way he does when changing
alignment.
>
>This would seem to be a nice solution to both the possibility of a
character
>gaining a bloodline AND explain how Aglondier has the write up that he
does....


Well, the way that I explain the phenomenon of Rogr, is at the time he
gained a bloodline, he was merely an apprentice, and not a mage (as of yet).
Then, he finished his training, and became a mage (shades of Luke Skywalker
here). As for the compromise, that is up to the individual DM. If an
starting unblooded character wants to be a mage, he should pick up a class,
like thief, that will allow him to dual-class at a later time. But then
again, that's just me.

Memnoch

>Gary
>
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[the Falcon]

> Technically, you're right. Though, I personally don't think the differences
> between the magician class and the "true" wizard class is really significant
> enough to make them a whole other character class. Magicians as a class really
> exist because they can't be mages, which is unlike any other characer class. It
> seems unfair to me to keep a character a magician if he somehow gains a
> bloodline and wants to use true magic, especially with the example of Rogr
> Aglondier out there. RA might have not been a real magician when he gained his
> bloodline, or he might have changed his class in violation of the rules. We
> really don't know.

About Rogr ("Moore") Aglondier: he's only level 3 in the RoE booklet, and
he seems to have been ruling for quite some years already in there (the
phrasing used in the RoE suggests to me it happened quite some time ago),
so maybe he was only still an apprentice when he got the old man's
bloodline.

Not that that gets us anywhere or anything...

- the Falcon
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