Gorgon on the battlefield

[Alaric]

GeeMan wrote:
>
> Alaric wrote:
>

>
> I've been fiddling around with converting standard AD&D stats into their warcard
> equivalents. From what I can tell the Gorgon as a warcard by himself would look like
> this:
>
> Move: 1 (he is very slow, his biggest weakness)
> Defence: 10 (assuming he could be hit at all due to his resistence)
> Melee: 4
> Missile: 2 (gaze attack)
> Morale: Unstoppable
> Hits: 3
One thing to remember about the Gorgon, for all that he is said to be
slow, I don't believe it. For example, his dexterity is still 15, which
implies he's only slow when he wants to be (and that he was one fast SoB
in his prime)

> Melee: This one is a bit tough. I think you have to figure out how much "average"
> damage the unit would do, which means you have to come up with a way of averaging
> their THAC0 with the damage that they do by weapon type. THAC0 expressed as a
> percentage * average damage divided by 50.
>
> The Gorgon, for instance, is going to hit 95% of the time (a 1 is always a miss) and
> do an average of 5.5+8+2=16 (rounded up damage) per hit. He generally gets 5/2
> attack, so in a battle round (five normal melee rounds) he will hit almost 12 times
> for around 192 hp of damage.

OK, when I look at the Gorgon I assume that he's going to have taken the
time to learn all the tricks of the trade. As I've said before, these
longlived enemies (dragons, awnshegh, and just plain ol' powerful elves)
are going to have had many years to learn how to bend the rules. Why
wouldn't the Gorgon be considered a Grandmaster with his Two-handed
sword (which, incidentally, he uses one handed, despite his size). That
gives him an extra attack every round, bringing his attacks to 7/2. And
his damage is going to average 6.5+3+5+8= 23 per hit. The damage is even
more astronomical, unfortunately. Also, you need to account for the fact
that when surrounded he will be able to use an all-around attack, and
heroic melee rules as well (I'm not totally sure on them, as I don't use
'em, but fighting when outnumbered 100-400:1 seems pretty fair to him).


I hesitate to use the Gorgon as a military force, however. I give him
full credit for magical abilities. After all, if the players can
roll-play, then so can their enemies. Now I totally understand people
who wish to limit the abilities of the gorgon on a roleplaying basis,
seeing that his personality and termperament wouldn't allow it. I just
take a different tact. In my view, the G-man will generally be at the
point in the battle where the leaders are, and fighting to get them
through the heart. As it has been shown, the Gorgon is a good enough
fighter that every attack can be a called shot to the heart and he'll
still hit each and every time, barring a 1 (which shouldn't be anything
other than a miss for him). So it's more of a 1-1 thing with him anyway.
Thx,
AlaricTo unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
with the line

[geeman]

Alaric wrote:

> One thing to remember about the Gorgon, for all that he is said to be
> slow, I don't believe it. For example, his dexterity is still 15, which
> implies he's only slow when he wants to be (and that he was one fast SoB
> in his prime)

True. It's an interesting dichotomy; dextrous yet (supposedly) slow....

The rationalization for his ground speed is pretty straightforward--he's made of rock.


> OK, when I look at the Gorgon I assume that he's going to have taken the
> time to learn all the tricks of the trade. As I've said before, these
> longlived enemies (dragons, awnshegh, and just plain ol' powerful elves)
> are going to have had many years to learn how to bend the rules. Why
> wouldn't the Gorgon be considered a Grandmaster with his Two-handed
> sword (which, incidentally, he uses one handed, despite his size). That
> gives him an extra attack every round, bringing his attacks to 7/2. And
> his damage is going to average 6.5+3+5+8= 23 per hit. The damage is even
> more astronomical, unfortunately. Also, you need to account for the fact
> that when surrounded he will be able to use an all-around attack, and
> heroic melee rules as well (I'm not totally sure on them, as I don't use
> 'em, but fighting when outnumbered 100-400:1 seems pretty fair to him).

Also good points. I was being conservative in my estimates, probably far too
conservative. It is, after all, the ultimate foe in the campaign setting... a little
extravagence is probably warrented.

> I hesitate to use the Gorgon as a military force, however. I give him
> full credit for magical abilities. After all, if the players can
> roll-play, then so can their enemies. Now I totally understand people
> who wish to limit the abilities of the gorgon on a roleplaying basis,
> seeing that his personality and termperament wouldn't allow it. I just
> take a different tact. In my view, the G-man will generally be at the
> point in the battle where the leaders are, and fighting to get them
> through the heart. As it has been shown, the Gorgon is a good enough
> fighter that every attack can be a called shot to the heart and he'll
> still hit each and every time, barring a 1 (which shouldn't be anything
> other than a miss for him). So it's more of a 1-1 thing with him anyway.

You definately have to be careful when using the Gorgon. My campaign hasn't advanced to
the point where players could even consider going up against him, though he remains the
diabolic puppetmaster operating in the shadows. Maybe someday....

Gary
To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
with the line

[geeman]

GeeMan wrote:

> > One thing to remember about the Gorgon, for all that he is said to be
> > slow, I don't believe it. For example, his dexterity is still 15, which
> > implies he's only slow when he wants to be (and that he was one fast SoB
> > in his prime)
>
> True. It's an interesting dichotomy; dextrous yet (supposedly) slow....
>
> The rationalization for his ground speed is pretty straightforward--he's made of rock.

Sorry, I meant to come back and make another comment or two on this point.

Because Gorgy is made of stone, it seems like that would affects his dexterity as well as
his movement rate, eh? Well, for all we know, maybe it has. Raesene could have had an 18
dex before Deismaar. Who knows?

The other thing is that maybe he isn't slow. Maybe he's _careful_. He is, after all,
walking around on hooves. Maybe he has a tendancy to skitter around and slip when he runs?
Wouldn't that be funny! I'm sure the Gorgon doing a pratfall isn't exactly what people have
in mind in the ultimate villain of BR, so you have to slow that boy down....

Gary
To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
with the line

[Herald Williams]

I've always looked at it this way: he doesn't walk or run all that fast
(he's hooved, huge, and let's face it, doesn't really have much need to
run in any case) but his reaction time and agility are still quite
impressive. He can duck, dodge, twist, and turn quite well. After all,
he's had 1500 years of combat training and actual fighting to learn how
to not be where the attack lands. Plus, his hand-eye coordination is
bound to be good as well, since he's probably the equivalent of
specialized with most missile weapons.

Herald

GeeMan wrote:
>
> GeeMan wrote:
>
> > > One thing to remember about the Gorgon, for all that he is said to be
> > > slow, I don't believe it. For example, his dexterity is still 15, which
> > > implies he's only slow when he wants to be (and that he was one fast SoB
> > > in his prime)
> >
> > True. It's an interesting dichotomy; dextrous yet (supposedly) slow....
> >
> > The rationalization for his ground speed is pretty straightforward--he's made of rock.
>
> Sorry, I meant to come back and make another comment or two on this point.
>
> Because Gorgy is made of stone, it seems like that would affects his dexterity as well as
> his movement rate, eh? Well, for all we know, maybe it has. Raesene could have had an 18
> dex before Deismaar. Who knows?
>
> The other thing is that maybe he isn't slow. Maybe he's _careful_. He is, after all,
> walking around on hooves. Maybe he has a tendancy to skitter around and slip when he runs?
> Wouldn't that be funny! I'm sure the Gorgon doing a pratfall isn't exactly what people have
> in mind in the ultimate villain of BR, so you have to slow that boy down....
>
> Gary
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
> with the line 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
with the line

[Craig Dalrymple]

I think that the Gorgon would be a nightmare in any battle situation. I've
never really thought on anyone save for my players facing him at some point
in the future; and even at that it would most likely be the toughest warrior
going one on one against him.

I have actually thought that out and figured on what would be needed to give
the warrior a slim chance of surviving or at least challenging the Gorgon.
This is what I figured. Strength, Enlarge, Bless, Enchant Weapon, Haste,
Stoneskin, Protection from Evil, Chant/Prayer (in effect), Potion of
Heroism, A cleric standing nearby to Heal him during the fight, boots of
jumping, etc... to infinity.

This is a top of my head list and there was more when I first thought this
out. I figured that spells like Enchant Weapon would be needed to
temporarily give the player enough mojo to actually harm the Gorgon. Even
assuming that the warrior's sword is already magical before the further
enchantment. Also the armor would be magical, blah, blah, blah.

I think that for someone to actually threaten the Gorgon as he is written;
it would take the cooperative effort of many of the most powerful wizards
and priests of multiple nations just to get that person tough enough to
survive the first two rounds. Look what he did to Michael Roele in "Iron
Throne", that didn't take long now did it???? Even if you ascribe to a more
traditional main rules idea of what got rockbut and M. Roele together, it
couldn't have been pretty for the "good guys" that day...

Craig
To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
with the line

[Soviet]

You know after reading all your post about the Gorgon in the battlefield... well
it evoked an image:
The Gorgon sitting in his mount a top a hill bringing down death with his eyes,
(much like Balor in Slaine: The Horned God mini-series)...
"But the Formors, too had magical powers...
Their commander's venomous eye..
Destroyed anyone on whom its look fell."
I felt I had to say this, don't know why.. but I had to say it....
now continue with your discussion..

Craig Dalrymple wrote:

> I think that the Gorgon would be a nightmare in any battle situation. I've
> never really thought on anyone save for my players facing him at some point
> in the future; and even at that it would most likely be the toughest warrior
> going one on one against him.
>
> I have actually thought that out and figured on what would be needed to give
> the warrior a slim chance of surviving or at least challenging the Gorgon.
> This is what I figured. Strength, Enlarge, Bless, Enchant Weapon, Haste,
> Stoneskin, Protection from Evil, Chant/Prayer (in effect), Potion of
> Heroism, A cleric standing nearby to Heal him during the fight, boots of
> jumping, etc... to infinity.
>
> This is a top of my head list and there was more when I first thought this
> out. I figured that spells like Enchant Weapon would be needed to
> temporarily give the player enough mojo to actually harm the Gorgon. Even
> assuming that the warrior's sword is already magical before the further
> enchantment. Also the armor would be magical, blah, blah, blah.
>
> I think that for someone to actually threaten the Gorgon as he is written;
> it would take the cooperative effort of many of the most powerful wizards
> and priests of multiple nations just to get that person tough enough to
> survive the first two rounds. Look what he did to Michael Roele in "Iron
> Throne", that didn't take long now did it???? Even if you ascribe to a more
> traditional main rules idea of what got rockbut and M. Roele together, it
> couldn't have been pretty for the "good guys" that day...
>
> Craig
>
> ************************************************** *************************
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
> with the line 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
with the line

[Alaric]

Craig Dalrymple wrote:
>
> I think that the Gorgon would be a nightmare in any battle situation. I've
> never really thought on anyone save for my players facing him at some point
> in the future; and even at that it would most likely be the toughest warrior
> going one on one against him.
>
> I have actually thought that out and figured on what would be needed to give
> the warrior a slim chance of surviving or at least challenging the Gorgon.
> This is what I figured. Strength, Enlarge, Bless, Enchant Weapon, Haste,
> Stoneskin, Protection from Evil, Chant/Prayer (in effect), Potion of
> Heroism, A cleric standing nearby to Heal him during the fight, boots of
> jumping, etc... to infinity.


Unfortunately, I give the Gorgon enough credit that in any real fight
he'd be able to do a lot of that same stuff: Improved Blink, Haste,
Improved Strength, Enlarge, Stoneskin, Contingency: Stoneskin,
Protection from Good, a Potion to Double his HP, Potions of Healing (as
per the Heal spell), and a plethora of things that aren't even available
to the PCs. And even then, who said the Gorgon wouldn't bring in his
allies and lieutenants if there was even the slightest chance the PCs
were going to win (in fact, that's more or less what happened when the
party battled him. The minions took care of the magical support, golems,
and elementals on the party's side. He ended up leaving the battlefield
(actually going elsewhere, but close enough), after having taken the
bloodlines of a powerful paladin of Cuireacen and the High Priest of the
Unified Church of Haelyn (mentioned in some of my earlier posts). All in
all, he won even though he 'retreated'.
Thx,
AlaricTo unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
with the line