Basic questions re Chapt 1 and 2

[The Gautch]

Hey All. I am new to the forum (only found Birthright.net last month), but I have been into Birthright for years, playing a home-spun version of it with 3.5.

Since I want to help out the campaign world I dig so much, I have volunteered to generate some of the NPCs. HOWEVER, I have some VERY basic questions. I have searched the FAQ, read the draft Chapter 1, and done a search on the forum, and in some cases there's no clear answer to the question, and in others, conflicting answers (and way to many of them).

SO, I post this out of confusion, and hoping get a better sense of WHY and HOW some things work.

1. The Noble Class - What's it's purpose? Original birthright didn't have it. Is it to provide class skills to rulers? It seems that a lot of its class abilities nerf EVERY other PHB class. Fighters can no longer rule nations effectively, compared to the Nobles... There were no nobles in the original system, so just I don't get this at all. If I am going to be converting NPCs from the original system, I need to understand the Noble class I imagine. AND, if a powerful NPC regent was a 15th level fighter in 2e, is he now a 5th level fighter / 10th level Noble? 10th level fighter / 5th level Noble? What's the comparison?

2. The Noble Class - Why first level? Why is it necessary to START as a noble? couldn't one be bestowed a noble title after winning their land through martial (or magical or religious or commercial) means? This seems to limit Players to character concepts who were born noble, as it totally outshines other classes in rulership, no player will take ANYTHING but a noble for first level character if they EVER aspire to being regents. Historic characters like Daen Roesone certainly weren't born into Nobility, but they certainly ruled well... How do I work this into the NPCs I am supposed to convert? What about favoured class penalties for non-humans? Did anybody think of this?

3. The Human ability mods - Where did they go? A lot of the flavour seems to have been sucked out of the humans... Is it because they're only +1s and -1s that they were dropped? The bonuses to saving throws don't make sense for Vos and Khinasi - Strength and Intelligence don't affect saves. For the NPCs I am to generate, should I reduce the wis of all Anuireans by 1 and add 1 to all their dex to compensate for the 3.5 draft's missing ability mods? Likewise, should I add 1 to each Khinasi NPC's Con and subtract one from their Int? etc etc...

4. Where can I find a working copy of Chapter 2? How are blood points and bloodline strength calculated? Is it a template, 7th ability, class, or what? I have read posts advocating all these things, but I can find no definative answer.

Thanks for everybody's patience. I don't mean to second guess or criticize anybody's work up to this point considering I am certainly a Johnny-Come-Lately, but if I can have strong rationalizations for WHY these decisions were made, I would be able to contribute to the Atlas a little easier.

L8er
The Gautch

[Raesene Andu]

1. The Noble Class - What's it's purpose? Original birthright didn't have it. Is it to provide class skills to rulers? It seems that a lot of its class abilities nerf EVERY other PHB class. Fighters can no longer rule nations effectively, compared to the Nobles... There were no nobles in the original system, so just I don't get this at all. If I am going to be converting NPCs from the original system, I need to understand the Noble class I imagine. AND, if a powerful NPC regent was a 15th level fighter in 2e, is he now a 5th level fighter / 10th level Noble? 10th level fighter / 5th level Noble? What's the comparison?

It's purpose? Quite simply to provide a ruler class. Nobles are good classes for PC or NPC who's families have existed for centuries ruling a realm or province. They have grown up knowing they were born to lead, and their skills and attitudes show this.

And yes, they do get advantages over fighters, although consider that a fighter is still good at what he is meant to be good at, and that is leading soldiers into battle, adventuring, and kicking butt.

This link http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2808 leads to a thread where discussion about the various regents of Anuire has been taking place. The various levels have been discussed quite a bit on that thread and it would probably be best to read through that to see what everyone has been thinking re: the noble levels of each regent.


2. The Noble Class - Why first level? Why is it necessary to START as a noble? couldn't one be bestowed a noble title after winning their land through martial (or magical or religious or commercial) means? This seems to limit Players to character concepts who were born noble, as it totally outshines other classes in rulership, no player will take ANYTHING but a noble for first level character if they EVER aspire to being regents. Historic characters like Daen Roesone certainly weren't born into Nobility, but they certainly ruled well... How do I work this into the NPCs I am supposed to convert? What about favoured class penalties for non-humans? Did anybody think of this?

It is more about attitude than anything else. A noble has been born to lead. Their entire life they have grown up knowing that one day they were destined to rule something, and have been taught accordingly. The fact that you can only start play as a noble doesn't mean that you can't gain a noble title later in life, however having a noble title and being a noble are two very different things. Daen Roesone for example, I see as having been a fighter, so the nobles in other lands would always look down on him because he wasn't born to rule. He would not have grown up learning the skills that nobles do, but he was still able to conquer the lands that make up Roesone because he was a damn good fighter and men followed him because of that. In the current age, his family has settled down, so while I think Marlae would be a fighter, her brother shows all the signs of being a noble. Daen's lieutenants, who make up the rest of Roesone's nobility are also now well established noble families, and most of their members would be nobles, but they didn't start out that way.

As for player's choosing mainly nobles as the first class, I don't see the need myself, it really depend what sort of game you are playing. If you are playing just a domain game, then sure a noble is a good idea, but if you intend to adventure, then play a different class you'll be better off in the end. You can always hire skilled NPC nobles as your lieutenants and members of your court to look after runing your realm.


3. The Human ability mods - Where did they go? A lot of the flavour seems to have been sucked out of the humans... Is it because they're only +1s and -1s that they were dropped? The bonuses to saving throws don't make sense for Vos and Khinasi - Strength and Intelligence don't affect saves. For the NPCs I am to generate, should I reduce the wis of all Anuireans by 1 and add 1 to all their dex to compensate for the 3.5 draft's missing ability mods? Likewise, should I add 1 to each Khinasi NPC's Con and subtract one from their Int? etc etc...

These were dropped very early on in the creation of the BRCS. The easiest explaination is that to include them in a 3E ruleset they would have had to have been increased to +2/-2 to fit. I don't think anyone on the development team thought that there was that much difference between the various tribes of humanity to include an ability mod. I don't think many people miss them.

To answer your question, no don't use the ability mods, they are not in the 3.5 BRCS rules and won't be returning.


4. Where can I find a working copy of Chapter 2? How are blood points and bloodline strength calculated? Is it a template, 7th ability, class, or what? I have read posts advocating all these things, but I can find no definative answer.

I believe this link leads to the last version of that chapter, someone please correct me if I'm wrong. http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2346
In the 3.5E version of the BRCS, you take level of a scion class to gain bloodline abilities (1 level for major bloodlines, 2 for great bloodlines).
There can be taken at any time, but general a regent will take a level of scion early. See the link I posted above leading to the dicussion about regent levels, that will show you which regents have taken levels of scion class and which haven't.

[irdeggman]

Hey All. I am new to the forum (only found Birthright.net last month), but I have been into Birthright for years, playing a home-spun version of it with 3.5.

Welcome to the place to be.


1. The Noble Class - What's it's purpose? Original birthright didn't have it. Is it to provide class skills to rulers? It seems that a lot of its class abilities nerf EVERY other PHB class. Fighters can no longer rule nations effectively, compared to the Nobles... There were no nobles in the original system, so just I don't get this at all. If I am going to be converting NPCs from the original system, I need to understand the Noble class I imagine. AND, if a powerful NPC regent was a 15th level fighter in 2e, is he now a 5th level fighter / 10th level Noble? 10th level fighter / 5th level Noble? What's the comparison?

This topic has been around since pretty much the BRCS-playtest was posted

The basic premise of the noble is a souped up aristocrat (NPC class from the DMG) and the noble class introduced in many 3rd party products as well as d20 Star Wars. Once the aristocrat was introduced it made an awful lot of sense to pattern a character that was born to rule after that concept. In 2nd ed there were a very limited number of classes and concepts as compared to 3.5 so it is important not to think in strict 2nd ed terms.

The Noble class was designed to be a natural leader. A fighter is a leader of troops and military type of issues – that is the difference. The noble class’ abilities are focused on ruling, specifically on domain rulership vice specific holding types. A fighter is still good at running law holdings, but not as effective at running a realm as is a noble. The trade offs are the noble is no where near as effective at an adventuring level as is a fighter, but is much more effective at running a realm. Basically if someone is running a mostly domain level game a noble is an almost essential class to have, while running a mostly adventure level game it is one of the least useful not totally inept but most everything it can do another class can do better).



2. The Noble Class - Why first level? Why is it necessary to START as a noble? couldn't one be bestowed a noble title after winning their land through martial (or magical or religious or commercial) means? This seems to limit Players to character concepts who were born noble, as it totally outshines other classes in rulership, no player will take ANYTHING but a noble for first level character if they EVER aspire to being regents. Historic characters like Daen Roesone certainly weren't born into Nobility, but they certainly ruled well... How do I work this into the NPCs I am supposed to convert? What about favoured class penalties for non-humans? Did anybody think of this?

This, again was based on the aristocrat NPC class. Well, that is a published example of this type of restriction. Basically the noble was born to privilege that is he inherited the resources necessary to have the best teachers that enabled him to gain the benefits the class has. For example Daene Roesone is not a noble, but Marlae could be. It all depends on how it is handled. IMO she wouldn’t be since the whole concept of the Roesones is that of self sufficiency and earning everything themselves.


3. The Human ability mods - Where did they go? A lot of the flavour seems to have been sucked out of the humans... Is it because they're only +1s and -1s that they were dropped? The bonuses to saving throws don't make sense for Vos and Khinasi - Strength and Intelligence don't affect saves. For the NPCs I am to generate, should I reduce the wis of all Anuireans by 1 and add 1 to all their dex to compensate for the 3.5 draft's missing ability mods? Likewise, should I add 1 to each Khinasi NPC's Con and subtract one from their Int? etc etc...

Thie 2nd ed ability modifiers has definitely been a long running topic of discussion. Basically in 3.5 you cannot have a +1/-1 to ability modifiers. They are all supposed to be even increments to avoid min/maxing. So if the 2nd ed modifiers were used a dwarf would end up with a +4/-4 to maintain the relationship between the races – way out of whack. What was done was to attempt to maintain the “feel” of the 2nd ed races while using mechanics compatible with 3.5. The saving throws for instance while not directly tied to Str and Int reflect the philosophy and underlying traits of the races in question, as was discussed on the boards throughout the various threads talking about the races portion of Chap 1. For instance Vos live in a harsh climate and are real prone to survival – Fort save bonus. Khinasi and Anuireans have a very strong sense of self and hence the bonus to Wil saves. Do not try to do a straight up conversion of 2nd ed as things are way different in 3.5 so it just can’t work well. That was one of the things realized very early on.

You can adjust the ability scores from 2nd ed NPCs in whatever way makes sense – they will pretty much prove to be a mote point in the overall scheme of things, feats and skills are much more useful in capturing the “feel” of the 2nd ed setting. Remember that in 3.5 characters gain a +1 to an ability score every 4 levels, something not available in 2nd ed.

IMO more flavor has been added then was in 2nd ed. I mean the 2nd ed mechanic was solely an ability mod while 3.5 allows for so much more, background skills, regional feats, etc.


4. Where can I find a working copy of Chapter 2? How are blood points and bloodline strength calculated? Is it a template, 7th ability, class, or what? I have read posts advocating all these things, but I can find no definative answer.

The FAQs have a link to the “sanctioned” version of Chap 2. These questions should be answered there, although I’m sure you will have more after reading it.


Thanks for everybody's patience. I don't mean to second guess or criticize anybody's work up to this point considering I am certainly a Johnny-Come-Lately, but if I can have strong rationalizations for WHY these decisions were made, I would be able to contribute to the Atlas a little easier.

L8er
The Gautch

No offense taken. I suggest reading the FAQs some more, especially the philosophy of the project type of ones. That should give some overall background/conceptual ideas of the project.

[The Gautch]

Thanks for the responses. The Chapter 2 link was quite helpful, I think I have a much better handle on this now.

Much appreciated!

[Raesene Andu]

Hope we can see your ideas soon then :)

If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to post here, there are plenty of people ready to answer them.