[BIRTHRIGHT]Goblinoid Life

[Michael Goldsworthy]

Hello again.
Goblins. mention the name to a human on my Birthright world, possibly
others, is to summon up the vision of a veritible horde of skinny, short,
red-skinned humanoids, who wander the land seeking only the blood of thier
enemies and the cries of those they enslave.
Eh. In other words, not nice people, or good neighbors.
But still, I agree with the general thread here that the above statement
concerning Goblins is a gross generalization of the race, and of course
coloured by the perceptions of a non-goblin (in this case, Human).
In my mind, shure the goblin race(s) had a long history, and a civilization
of some repute pre the Human invasion of Cerilia from the south, followed by
the darker things that hunted the humans.
However, I don't think it was very "advanced" compared to, say, the
Oriental/Japanese civilization, or even one of the Dark Ages.
I envison a race of semi-nomadic people who had stuck to thier traditions,
thier ways, for centuries, maybe millenia, much like the Native American
Indian, or even the natives of the Australian outback.
Or, to be more specific, a combination between the above and the Aztecs; a
nomadic people who dedicated thier lives to thier gods and to battle,
believing the best things in life included a fat wife, many children, many
slaves, and to die (if the gods decreed so) in war (serving thier god),
rather in thier beds. I also get the feeling the Goblins were a very
pack-oriented people. More on this later.
The Goblin peoples were thus very warlike, even back then; we get an idea of
this from the allusion to that apparently the Elves had fought with them
before the humans came from Alaria, and had "almost defeated them". So - a
warlike people, probably just as nasty to each other as to the Elves (look
to our own race, and that dos'nt seem unlikely at all). Also we know they
reproduce VERY rapidly, faster by far than humans, who are probably the
second fastest-growing race, in terms of reproduction.
As a matter of fact, they had sprung back from what seemed to me to be a
near-genocidal war with the Elves to recover something of thier populace, if
not thier civilization, during the human expansion (as they clashed with the
Elves).
We know they by and large were crushed by a human/elf coalition sometime
after this, and even during the war with Azrai as thier patron did not
recover as much of thier past glory.
The reasoning here is ovious concerning thier decision to join Azrai - the
being offers them power, a chance to reap vengance on thier people's foes, a
chance to return to the old ways...
So. I see a people corrupted by the evil that was Azrai, and becoming a
shadow of the people they were before; remnants of thier civilization would
still be there, tradition is had to get rid of - but compartively easy to
corrupt. Never again will they know thier glories and ways of old, no
matter the power they gain; the ways thier ancestors knew are now corrupted,
more in line with thier master Azrai's desires than thier own (or the Clod
Rider, take your pick of name, still in essence the same thing). Thier
ancestors must be turning in thier graves... Um, and knowing thier priests,
they are, as they claw thier way to the surface to serve thier decendants as
zombies or skeletons. Or worse.
So; enough of thier civilization exists for the goblin peoples to at least
act with some form of self-goverment, however chaotic it is. Who rules?
The strongest, of course, meaning both by treachery and by stregenth of
faith and arm and magic. Dosen't matter wich one, so long as you are not
weak; those who are weak die. And if lucky, still serve the Master,
Azrai/The Cold Rider as undead.
Now - about that "pack mentality" I mentioned. We know that the goblins
that are reasonably organized ride wolves (or worgs) into battle, much as a
kind of calvary (which in my mind is an just evil(ahem) anti - calvary
measure; can you imagine the effect of your horse calavary of a 200-unit
mass of howling wolves?! Eeh - I'm not talking about the humans, either...)
Anyway, it seems to me that something like that would exist amonst Goblins,
at least those that lived with these wolves/worgs. So there'd be a *very*
strict pecking order, that im most circumstances be challenged anytime by
someone further down the totem pole. That's not to say that that would be
something common, but it certainly lends to my "the strong rule" theory.
Better, the goblin people are happier this way; Freedom of choice? They
would'nt know what to do witout the security of the
tribe/family/kingdom/pack around them, providing someone above them giving
orders, and someone below to give them to. To have the security knowing
they are not alone. Ever. So what if they die? The
tribe/family/kingdom/pack will survive. And in all likelyhood, thier
version of heaven is probably where all the "good warriors" go (maybe a
place like the plains of Asgard, where dead warrors fight each other through
the day, then fully healed, to enjoy the night in revelry with beer and
debauchery?)
So, for the most part, a bunch of Goblins would be happy to serve a powerful
ruler, for example, the Gorgon or the Spider - they are strong, and so long
as the pickings are good, why try to challenge them?
And even if the picking suck, are *you* gonna challenge the Gorgon? I
thought not...

Hrumph. I meant this post to give my thoughts on Goblins in general and
ended up giving more the view i have of them for my world. Oh, well... At
least I hope ypou find this entertaining!

Michael Goldsworthy

-

[Pieter Sleijpen]

Mmmmm,

Atzec idea is not bad, not bad at all....To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@lists.imagiconline.com
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[Mark A Vandermeulen]

On Mon, 16 Aug 1999, Michael Goldsworthy wrote:

> In my mind, shure the goblin race(s) had a long history, and a civilization
> of some repute pre the Human invasion of Cerilia from the south, followed by
> the darker things that hunted the humans.
> However, I don't think it was very "advanced" compared to, say, the
> Oriental/Japanese civilization, or even one of the Dark Ages.
> I envison a race of semi-nomadic people who had stuck to thier traditions,
> thier ways, for centuries, maybe millenia, much like the Native American
> Indian, or even the natives of the Australian outback.
> Or, to be more specific, a combination between the above and the Aztecs; a
> nomadic people who dedicated thier lives to thier gods and to battle,
> believing the best things in life included a fat wife, many children, many
> slaves, and to die (if the gods decreed so) in war (serving thier god),
> rather in thier beds. I also get the feeling the Goblins were a very
> pack-oriented people. More on this later.

OK, I'm going to point out where my feelings on this differ from yours,
but I'm not trying to argue that mine are right and yours wrong, just that
their different, and I'm trying to get the differences sorted out in my
head. First, I never really saw the goblins as semi-nomadic, but more sort
of 'pick-a-cave-and-defend-it' sorts (unless the odds were too highly
against them). Of course, a semi-nomadic lifestyle makes sense for a
hunting culture; unless the land was unusually rich, you would eventually
hunt out the local area, and have to move on to find new game. However,
such a lifestyle has certain inherent dangers (and Cerilia has numberous
creatures who can easily turn the tables on hunters and hunt back) and as
such I can't really see the goblins getting into conflict with the elves.
For one, the lifestyle is closely tied to the ecology, which I think elves
would appreciate, and also such cultures (human ones, anyway) tend to have
death rates real close to their birth rates, so I can't see the
populations sizes growing so big that they'd conflict much with elves out
of sheer numbers (which is the typical approach). So, personally, I think
the goblin culture must have developed advances which allowed its death
rate to drop significantly in comparison to its birth rate, and to me that
indicates a combination of agriculture and magic. I believe that the
goblins became stable in good agricultural lands, and developed
witch-shamans in association with spirits from the Shadow World (before it
was corrupted by Azrai). This allowed the goblins to increase in numbers
dramatically, but they were by nature hunters rather than gatherers, and
so culturally they still valued fighting skills. They mostly fought with
each other at first, but soon the rising power of the witch-shamans caused
power to be concentrated around a few of the old tribal "clans." From such
was born the Goblin Kingdoms. Each king was essentially a Tribal
Cheiftain, but the backing of the witch-shamans gave them power over, and
eventually authority over, the other tribes or clans.

However, we do know one thing about agriculture in Cerilia: it destroys
Elven Forests. The Elves live in landscapes that appear to be naturally
magical--the time anomalies mentioned, the palpable "presence" in the
forests felt by interlopers, the shifting landscapes that confuse invaders
all speaks to a land that has upped its magical potential to the next
level. Perhaps elves even "feed" off the natural energies of that land (a
fascinating idea) and need the ambience of that land to heal wounds or
reproduce (all ideas previously tendered on this list). Thus, Goblin
Agriculture probably had the same effect on the Land that human
agriculture does. Set up this way, the two cultures are doomed to
conflict. The power of the Goblin Kings is based on how much land he has
in agriculture (and thus how many warriors he can support), while that
very agriculture kills the "wild" elements of the Land that the elves need
to live.

> The Goblin peoples were thus very warlike, even back then; we get an idea of
> this from the allusion to that apparently the Elves had fought with them
> before the humans came from Alaria, and had "almost defeated them". So - a
> warlike people, probably just as nasty to each other as to the Elves (look
> to our own race, and that dos'nt seem unlikely at all). Also we know they
> reproduce VERY rapidly, faster by far than humans, who are probably the
> second fastest-growing race, in terms of reproduction.
> As a matter of fact, they had sprung back from what seemed to me to be a
> near-genocidal war with the Elves to recover something of thier populace, if
> not thier civilization, during the human expansion (as they clashed with the
> Elves).

Certainly the goblins are a warlike culture, but in my view, until you
have the corruption of the witch-shamans, driving them to seek power for
themselves individually, it is in the witch-shaman's best interests to
keep power centralized around a king. After all, witch-shamen cannot
expand like priests do--they serve spirits, who can only grant spells to
one person (the shaman) as opposed to gods, who can grant spells to all
the dedicated servants (clerics) who pray for them. Thus, the Goblins were
probably better organized than the straggling human tribes that started to
creep onto the Cerilian continent, and the elves who met them probably saw
them as a less-violent (and slower-reproducing) form of goblin. As the
lesser of the two evils (humans also did agriculture), but with lots of
land already "corrupted" by goblin agriculture, there was plenty of land
that the elves were perfectly willing to let the humans have--as long as
they helped to push to Goblins off of it.

At the same time, the goblin culture was also advancing. The bushido-like
code-of-honor which ensured loyalty to one's lord even in the face of
death was developed and helped maximize the goblins advantage-in-numbers.
In addition, to help counteract the elven mastery of wizardry, the
witch-shamen started developing an "organized religion," consisting of
"magician-priests" (perhaps rather like Bhuddist monks?) who spent their
time developing and working the long and expensive rituals that would
create goblin magical items and spells. But with an advantage of numbers,
when it came to a battle, it didn't much matter if an elven wizard could
cast 3 fireballs in a day's battle, if the goblins had 3 monasteries who
could spend 4 months instilling a platinium rune-inscribed tile with the
power necessary to cast a single fireball on command.

However, two things led to the collapse of the Goblin Kingdoms. First, the
growing power of the "magician-priest" monasteries led the witch-shamen to
see their own personal power as less and less tied directly to the throne,
and secondly, the discovery by Azrai of the Cerilian continent and its
Shadow World (or the spreading of that corruption from Aduria) caused the
corruption of the spirits the witch-shamen relied upon, which in turn
corrupted the witch-shamen to seek first after their own personal power,
which they did mainly by pitting the individual Clan Warlords against
the King. As a result, the system fragmented, and the goblins were easily
driven off much of their lands by the human-elven alliance.

> We know they by and large were crushed by a human/elf coalition sometime
> after this, and even during the war with Azrai as thier patron did not
> recover as much of thier past glory.
> The reasoning here is ovious concerning thier decision to join Azrai - the
> being offers them power, a chance to reap vengance on thier people's foes, a
> chance to return to the old ways...

Very true. Azrai offers a level of power above those of the old
witch-shamen--that of a god and the god's clerics. The price of which is
the continuing dissolution of their old culture. And those who lusted
after that power grabbed it.

> So. I see a people corrupted by the evil that was Azrai, and becoming a
> shadow of the people they were before; remnants of thier civilization would
> still be there, tradition is had to get rid of - but compartively easy to
> corrupt. Never again will they know thier glories and ways of old, no
> matter the power they gain; the ways thier ancestors knew are now corrupted,
> more in line with thier master Azrai's desires than thier own (or the Clod
> Rider, take your pick of name, still in essence the same thing). Thier

I'm sorry, I know it's just a typo, but the "Clod Rider?" That's GREAT!
LOL!

> ancestors must be turning in thier graves... Um, and knowing thier priests,
> they are, as they claw thier way to the surface to serve thier decendants as
> zombies or skeletons. Or worse.

Well, you are a pessimisitic one, aren't you? So there is no possibility
of redemption for the goblin people? I personally would prefer it as a
possibility (if only for extraordinary PC's to bring help bring about).
How about this: after the Death of Azrai at Deismaar, the goblin clerics
of Azrai lost their powers, and were turned upon by goblins seeking to
return to the old ways. The old spirits, Kartathok and the others were
still alive and being served in secret by their witch-shamen, and now they
returned. But the Old Gods, though corrupted by Azrai, has also learned
from him, and began to develop a system of worship similar to that of
Azrai's. They brought lesser spirits under their power to serve additional
(but subservient) witch-shamen to mimick the clerics of Azrai, and began
to experiment with ways to gain power from sacrifices and torture and
bloodletting. However, not all of the Old Gods, the spirits from the
otherworld that had served the Goblins, had been corrupted by Azrai. One
at least sought out the aid of the new human gods, and approached Vorynn,
the wisest of the human gods and the one the goblin deity-spirit
most understood, and deemed most likely to listen. And Vorynn took pity on
that deity-spirit, and taught it how to enter Vorynn's Astral Domain,
where it could resist the corruption of the Shadow World. And thus there
is one god, and the goblin followers of that god, that remains the least
corrupted of the goblin spirit-deities. And the goal of that god and her
followers, is to find a place for the goblin peoples in the future, and to
redeem their people so they can take up that possible future. Perhaps the
spirit-deity had a vision when visiting in Vorynn's land, and it showed
her that the future of the goblin people was very much it doubt--they
would go extinct unless they were redeemed from the corruption that
plagued them. And perhaps for the PC's the prophecy may also include the
elves: the fate of the goblins is the fate of the elves. If the goblins go
extinct, then so will the elves, driven off the face of the land by the
rapacious appetites of the human race. If the elves are to be preserved on
the land, then so must the goblins.

Whew. That was fun. Sorry I got carried away there. Where were we?

> So; enough of thier civilization exists for the goblin peoples to at least
> act with some form of self-goverment, however chaotic it is. Who rules?
> The strongest, of course, meaning both by treachery and by stregenth of
> faith and arm and magic. Dosen't matter wich one, so long as you are not
> weak; those who are weak die. And if lucky, still serve the Master,
> Azrai/The Cold Rider as undead.
> Now - about that "pack mentality" I mentioned. We know that the goblins
> that are reasonably organized ride wolves (or worgs) into battle, much as a
> kind of calvary (which in my mind is an just evil(ahem) anti - calvary
> measure; can you imagine the effect of your horse calavary of a 200-unit
> mass of howling wolves?! Eeh - I'm not talking about the humans, either...)
> Anyway, it seems to me that something like that would exist amonst Goblins,
> at least those that lived with these wolves/worgs. So there'd be a *very*
> strict pecking order, that im most circumstances be challenged anytime by
> someone further down the totem pole. That's not to say that that would be
> something common, but it certainly lends to my "the strong rule" theory.
> Better, the goblin people are happier this way; Freedom of choice? They
> would'nt know what to do witout the security of the
> tribe/family/kingdom/pack around them, providing someone above them giving
> orders, and someone below to give them to. To have the security knowing
> they are not alone. Ever. So what if they die? The
> tribe/family/kingdom/pack will survive. And in all likelyhood, thier
> version of heaven is probably where all the "good warriors" go (maybe a
> place like the plains of Asgard, where dead warrors fight each other through
> the day, then fully healed, to enjoy the night in revelry with beer and
> debauchery?)

I very much agree with this stuff. Good point about the wolfriders! I'll
have to keep that in mind! ;) And I agree that the spirits/souls of the
dead goblins go to be with "the ancestors" in the Shadow World, and there
serve as minions for the Goblin Spirit-Deities. Perhaps skilled shamen are
"rewarded" by serving as spirit-sources for living goblin witch-shamen.

> So, for the most part, a bunch of Goblins would be happy to serve a powerful
> ruler, for example, the Gorgon or the Spider - they are strong, and so long
> as the pickings are good, why try to challenge them?
> And even if the picking suck, are *you* gonna challenge the Gorgon? I
> thought not...

No, but I might sneek off and try my luck somewhere else, unless I had a
very strong reason to say (say some sort of Code of Honor which was
important to me). So yes, I think that goblins are very happy to have a
strong leader to serve, but that there are two kinds of goblins: the
"high" goblin, which is loyal to some of the Old Way, including the Code
of Honor, and will remain loyal to a sworn lord even if that lord is weak,
and the "low" goblin, who has embraced the Goblin Dark Ages and everything
it stands for. Most humans (and adventurers) are likely to meet only "low"
goblins unless they travel into the remnants of the old Goblin Kingdoms.

> Hrumph. I meant this post to give my thoughts on Goblins in general and
> ended up giving more the view i have of them for my world. Oh, well... At
> least I hope ypou find this entertaining!

Vastly! Can I have some more, please? I haven't had this much fun in
weeks.

Mark VanderMeulen
vander+@pitt.edu
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