Death

[Undertaker]

At 09:22 PM 1/9/97 +0200, Jaanus Lillenberg(jaanusl@postimees.ee)wrote:
>

>Thats how I have ruled it. To die is to die..
>Remember Gorgon slayed Michael Roele... If the raising a person
>were easy to get to any baron then that would have been a *nothing*
>for an emperor to get a resurrection.
>
>There are also at least 3 or perhaps 4 persons able to cast wish
>in the world of Cerilia. That what I read out from the books.
>(1: High Queen of elves of Lluabraight; 2. Chancellor or Royal College
>in Anuire; 3. Magian 4.Aglondiers line of wizards if they get high level
>enough).
>
>Althought Magian wasnt presented in Cerilia at that time yet, High
>Queen didnt rule yet and Aglondiers line perhaps was in the grow still,
>the College could have the spell ready for use.
>
>They also could have been paid with whatever I think... for to get
>emperor back to the life.
>

This discussion came up during my live game last night, and all of my
Players(who have read all the BR novels)said the same thing. They all
thought that it was not possible to be raised, or ressurected, on Cerilia.
Each pointed out the same fact that Jaanus did, if you can be brought back,
why hasen't someone returned Micheal yet. I must say this surprised me.
Until our posts over the past several days, I had not given the subject any
thought. Of course death in my campaigns has always been hard to reverse,
and I just assumed that it would be the same here. Now I'm starting to lean
toward making death a permanent condition. Now this may be a little harsh,
but even my Players think that part of BR is history, and tragedy. They feel
that in order to help mantain this when someone dies they should die
forever. My wife pointed out that at least Blooded characters should be
permanetly removed if they die. Once dead their soul, and BL, would transend
beyond the realms of the average dead. She envisioned a type of Valhalla,
where Blooded individuals joined in an eternity of sitting by their god's
right hand, awaiting the chance to do his bidding. A bit glamourous I must
admit, but it gives one thought. Should prehaps death be permanent on Cerilia?

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Ian Hoskins]

On 10-Jan-97, Undertaker wrote:

- ->This discussion came up during my live game last night, and all of my
- ->Players(who have read all the BR novels)said the same thing. They all
- ->thought that it was not possible to be raised, or ressurected, on Cerilia.
- ->Each pointed out the same fact that Jaanus did, if you can be brought back,
- ->why hasen't someone returned Micheal yet. I must say this surprised me.
- ->Until our posts over the past several days, I had not given the subject any
- ->thought. Of course death in my campaigns has always been hard to reverse,
- ->and I just assumed that it would be the same here. Now I'm starting to lean
- ->toward making death a permanent condition. Now this may be a little harsh,
- ->but even my Players think that part of BR is history, and tragedy. They feel
- ->that in order to help mantain this when someone dies they should die
- ->forever. My wife pointed out that at least Blooded characters should be
- ->permanetly removed if they die. Once dead their soul, and BL, would transend
- ->beyond the realms of the average dead. She envisioned a type of Valhalla,
- ->where Blooded individuals joined in an eternity of sitting by their god's
- ->right hand, awaiting the chance to do his bidding. A bit glamourous I must
- ->admit, but it gives one thought. Should prehaps death be permanent on
Cerilia?

Well I for one am running my campaign without resurrection/raise dead for
blooded character for two reasons.

1) It gives non blooded character something the blooded character have. I have
had two blooded PCs die, but no non blooded yet. My players agree with this
ruling too.

2) I think that a blooded characters tie to the land is so great that when
he/she dies they become part of the land itself and their bloodline has been
passed to their heir so they can't return from death via a ressurect etc.

Oh one other reason, no player in my campaign can cast raise dead yet, and
they have put all of the local high level priest off side so they will get no
help from them.
- --
Darkstar

hoss@satech.net.au
http://www.satech.net.au/~hoss/index.html

`Now weary traveller rest your head
because just like me you're totally dead.'

A.J. Rimmer Bsc Ssc

[Jaanus Lillenberg]

Hello stuff :)

>
> >Thats how I have ruled it. To die is to die..
> >Remember Gorgon slayed Michael Roele... If the raising a person
> >were easy to get to any baron then that would have been a *nothing*
> >for an emperor to get a resurrection.
> >
> >There are also at least 3 or perhaps 4 persons able to cast wish
> >in the world of Cerilia. That what I read out from the books.
> >(1: High Queen of elves of Lluabraight; 2. Chancellor or Royal College
> >in Anuire; 3. Magian 4.Aglondiers line of wizards if they get high level
> >enough).
> >
> >Althought Magian wasnt presented in Cerilia at that time yet, High
> >Queen didnt rule yet and Aglondiers line perhaps was in the grow still,
> >the College could have the spell ready for use.
> >
> >They also could have been paid with whatever I think... for to get
> >emperor back to the life.
> >
>
> This discussion came up during my live game last night, and all of my
> Players(who have read all the BR novels)said the same thing. They all
> thought that it was not possible to be raised, or ressurected, on Cerilia.
> Each pointed out the same fact that Jaanus did, if you can be brought back,
> why hasen't someone returned Micheal yet. I must say this surprised me.
> Until our posts over the past several days, I had not given the subject any
> thought. Of course death in my campaigns has always been hard to reverse,
> and I just assumed that it would be the same here. Now I'm starting to lean
> toward making death a permanent condition. Now this may be a little harsh,
> but even my Players think that part of BR is history, and tragedy. They feel
> that in order to help mantain this when someone dies they should die
> forever. My wife pointed out that at least Blooded characters should be
> permanetly removed if they die. Once dead their soul, and BL, would transend
> beyond the realms of the average dead. She envisioned a type of Valhalla,
> where Blooded individuals joined in an eternity of sitting by their god's
> right hand, awaiting the chance to do his bidding. A bit glamourous I must
> admit, but it gives one thought. Should prehaps death be permanent on Cerilia?
>
WOWOW WOW WOW !! You make me comig on marvelous ideas..

I will consider it seriously.. Yes a blooded person, if dead,
will never return (only in spectral form) but that happens IF
the character died a violent unfair death. It wouldnt go with
if the person died in the battle.. that one I consider the
fameful death for a scion.
But if it were tricked/trapped/poisoned/assasinated etc..

In that case the scion dies.. for every living thing they REALLY look dead
and they are for any mortal.
BUT!!!!!
now here comes the idea. They (themselves) will just feel something
like a heavy blow (must think about details) and just open their
eyes again..

.. in the World of the Light (or whatwever I will call it)
that is the Cerilian Valhalla. And the players have the ability
to play further (I will consider it if all my players die (all are
blooded)).
That would be real fun :)

The world of the light would be the bright counterpart of cerilia
JUST as the shadow world is for the dark.

And there the heroes live just as if in the ordinary world. But
they live there like normal heroes (no bloodlines).
And if they die.. they will be carried to The Beds where they use to
sleep in. And next morning they wake up reted and healthy. :))

What do you say ??

Greetings from
Jaanus Lillenberg

- ---
jaanusl@postimees.ee

[Undertaker]

At 06:07 PM 1/10/97 +0200, Jaanus Lillenberg(jaanusl@postimees.ee)wrote:
>
>> This discussion came up during my live game last night, and all of my
>> Players(who have read all the BR novels)said the same thing. They all
>> thought that it was not possible to be raised, or ressurected, on Cerilia.
>> Each pointed out the same fact that Jaanus did, if you can be brought back,
>> why hasen't someone returned Micheal yet. I must say this surprised me.
>> Until our posts over the past several days, I had not given the subject any
>> thought. Of course death in my campaigns has always been hard to reverse,
>> and I just assumed that it would be the same here. Now I'm starting to lean
>> toward making death a permanent condition. Now this may be a little harsh,
>> but even my Players think that part of BR is history, and tragedy. They feel
>> that in order to help mantain this when someone dies they should die
>> forever. My wife pointed out that at least Blooded characters should be
>> permanetly removed if they die. Once dead their soul, and BL, would transend
>> beyond the realms of the average dead. She envisioned a type of Valhalla,
>> where Blooded individuals joined in an eternity of sitting by their god's
>> right hand, awaiting the chance to do his bidding. A bit glamourous I must
>> admit, but it gives one thought. Should prehaps death be permanent on
Cerilia?
>>
>
>WOWOW WOW WOW !! You make me comig on marvelous ideas..
>

Glad to be of inspiration. After reading another post on this subject I've
been thinking about this issue even harder, and came to a few conclusions,
for my campaign. In this other post(I'm sorry it got trashed by mistake)the
point was made that in his campaign only unblooded characters could return
from the dead. I agree with this, but want to take it a step further.
Non-blooded individuals can only be Reincarnated, with a few changes. First,
it will take 1d4 days for everyday the character is dead, until the new
incarnation appears. The DM should note how long it takes for the new form
to appear, including any time spent just dead. The longer it takes, the
further the new character should be from the old. For example a Reincarnated
Human, would probably not return as a Human, unless it only took 1 day to
return. After that his race, class, ablities, alignment, and even
personality should begin to wander in new paths. Adjudicating Reincarnation
spells has never been easy, but in BR its even more imortant to monitor its
use. Because again if it were in anyway convenient, great figures of
history(at least the unBlooded ones)would ensure that when their time came
such a spell would be used on them. Of course if you restrict the spell to
only Priests, that will make it more difficult to use. A god must be willing
to grant the Reincarnation on the person, this can get tricky depending how
the character lived their lives. Also keeping Reincarnation as a divine gift
allows the DM to add any particular quirks to a character that is brought
back. Who knows what the plans the gods may be working on?

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Matthew M. Colville]

Ok. . .

The questions has arisen; how is it, if preists can cast
Ressurection, no-one in Cerilia has ressurected Michele Roele?

I have a *possible* answer.

I bought, a while ago, the Rod Of Seven Parts Tome adventure. My
PCs will be going through it sometime after they go through Night Below. I
encorporated the Rod in this way.

In the excellent fantasy series The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
by Stephen R. Donaldson, there was a powerful artifact called The Staff Of
Law (read: The Rod Of Seven Parts.) Someone misused it and ressurected an
ancient, powerful Good-Guy. As a *result* of that, the Law Of Death was
broken. I.e. the law, or rule, or fact of life, or whatever, that
prevented people from coming back from the dead had been broken and
afterwards Undead could be created and all manner of fell beasts were let
loose.

Ok, so I basically merge these two mythos. In my world there was
once a time (thousands of years ago, way before Mount Deismarr) when there
were no Undead, no Ressurection or Raise Dead, and no Shadow World. . .then
the Staff of Law (I preferr this name to the Rod Of Seven parts. I also
call bits of the Rod Fragments, not Segements,) was shattered and, amoung
other things, the Law of Death was broken.

A GM who wanted to have both Ressurections and Raise Dead and yet
also not have Micheal Roele walking around could either introduce the
concept of the Staff as an artifact that existed 500 years ago and was
broken then, or push back the date of Micheal Roele's death to period
suitably distant for such an artifact. Then, simply say that since Roele
died before the Law Of Death was broken, he cannot be brought back,
although everyone *since* then can.

Also it would give your 10th level PCs something to do (i.e. you
could buy the Rod Of Seven Parts boxed set adventure.)

[Robert Harper]

At 04:35 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote:

> The questions has arisen; how is it, if preists can cast
>Ressurection, no-one in Cerilia has ressurected Michele Roele?
>
> I have a *possible* answer. >snip<
> In the excellent fantasy series The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
>by Stephen R. Donaldson, there was a powerful artifact called The Staff Of
>Law (read: The Rod Of Seven Parts.) Someone misused it and ressurected an
>ancient, powerful Good-Guy. As a *result* of that, the Law Of Death was
>broken. I.e. the law, or rule, or fact of life, or whatever, that
>prevented people from coming back from the dead had been broken and
>afterwards Undead could be created and all manner of fell beasts were let
>loose.
>
Neat! Or as the Wizard Anne would say "Groovy!"

Lots of possible uses - even in a standard campaign, "Every time the veil of
shadows is parted and soul called back from across the river of death other
souls, hungry for life, may come with it. Only utmost urgency and need will
drive a Priest of the Light to call back a soul and unleash these other
spirits on the world. And if they are unleased, the soul called back is
connected to them because of their passage together across the river of
death. It shall feel the anguish of their victims and be tortured by the
knowledge of their crimes until it has tracked down and destroyed each spirit."

__________________________________________________ _________________
| |
| We ask ourselves if there is a God, how can this happen? |
| Better to ask, if there is a God, must it be sane? |
| |
| Lucien LaCroix |
|_________________________________________________ __________________|

[Undertaker]

At 09:23 PM 1/10/97 -0500, Robert Harper(rob.harper@sympatico.ca)wrote:
>
>At 04:35 PM 1/10/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>> I have a *possible* answer. >snip<
>> In the excellent fantasy series The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant
>>by Stephen R. Donaldson, there was a powerful artifact called The Staff Of
>>Law (read: The Rod Of Seven Parts.) Someone misused it and ressurected an
>>ancient, powerful Good-Guy. As a *result* of that, the Law Of Death was
>>broken. I.e. the law, or rule, or fact of life, or whatever, that
>>prevented people from coming back from the dead had been broken and
>>afterwards Undead could be created and all manner of fell beasts were let
>>loose.
>>
>
>Lots of possible uses - even in a standard campaign, "Every time the veil of
>shadows is parted and soul called back from across the river of death other
>souls, hungry for life, may come with it. Only utmost urgency and need will
>drive a Priest of the Light to call back a soul and unleash these other
>spirits on the world. And if they are unleased, the soul called back is
>connected to them because of their passage together across the river of
>death. It shall feel the anguish of their victims and be tortured by the
>knowledge of their crimes until it has tracked down and destroyed each spirit."
>

This sounds real good. I plan on making Reincarnation hard for my Players to
use, but this might be the little extra something that helps drive home the
fact, that prehaps the dead are left buried. Here again I think the Van
Richten line from RL might be of use. This time it would have to be VR's gd
to Ghosts. This way each spirit would be unique. Anyhow I like the idea of
making the PCs fear bringing someone back, and as Robert said, they will
have a hard time convincing a good Priest to undertake the spell. For fear
of causing more harm then good.

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Matthew M. Colville]

The *obvious* reason, which someone may have brought up and I may have
missed it, that Micheal Roele hasn't been ressurected is this:

He failed his ressurection survival roll. Big deal. No need to debate
the subject of Ressurection/Raise dead on Cerilia. Famous dead people
remain dead because they failed their Ressurection Survival Roll.

[Undertaker]

At 10:36 AM 1/11/97 +0000, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
>
>The *obvious* reason, which someone may have brought up and I may have
>missed it, that Micheal Roele hasn't been ressurected is this:
>
> He failed his ressurection survival roll. Big deal. No need to debate
>the subject of Ressurection/Raise dead on Cerilia. Famous dead people
>remain dead because they failed their Ressurection Survival Roll.
>

That is a simple way to put it, but while it sounds nice, its unlikely that
every person whom the attempt has been made on would have failed. Most
importantly it dosen't address the riding concern of PCs returning from the
dead. If you want to allow characters to return from the dead thats fine. I
just feel that an unspoken precedent has been set with both the novels, and
the wording of the rulebook. As far as a debate goes, there is always reason
to debate, when people have differing ideas on the same subject. Besides
when the threat of death is very real, and very permanent, it truley divides
the heroes, from the common man. I'm afraid I can't swallow a hundred, or
more, failed checks. Assuming that almost every Regent would have at least
tried to be brought back if it was possible, and applicable. They all would
have to have failed their checks, and thats a bit much. Besides thats a
little too convenient, and dosen't explain why someone didn't eventually use
a Wish to do the job. Either way, to each his own, by no means do I want to
sound like I'm telling you the way things should be. Each DM needs to make
his own decision concerning this. I just thought it might be a subject any
BR DM would want to think about. The only point I was trying to make was, it
seems if coming back is not an option, BR becomes an even more heroic
setting. Where the faint of heart need not strive for greatness. Giving the
setting a strong Arthurian feel.

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Matthew M. Colville]

>At 10:36 AM 1/11/97 +0000, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
>>
>>The *obvious* reason, which someone may have brought up and I may have
>>missed it, that Micheal Roele hasn't been ressurected is this:
>>
>> He failed his ressurection survival roll. Big deal. No need to debate
>>the subject of Ressurection/Raise dead on Cerilia. Famous dead people
>>remain dead because they failed their Ressurection Survival Roll.
>>
>
>That is a simple way to put it, but while it sounds nice, its unlikely that
>every person whom the attempt has been made on would have failed. Most
>importantly it dosen't address the riding concern of PCs returning from the
>dead. If you want to allow characters to return from the dead thats fine. I
>just feel that an unspoken precedent has been set with both the novels, and
>the wording of the rulebook. As far as a debate goes, there is always reason
>to debate, when people have differing ideas on the same subject. Besides
>when the threat of death is very real, and very permanent, it truley divides
>the heroes, from the common man. I'm afraid I can't swallow a hundred, or
>more, failed checks. Assuming that almost every Regent would have at least
>tried to be brought back if it was possible, and applicable. They all would
>have to have failed their checks, and thats a bit much. Besides thats a
>little too convenient, and dosen't explain why someone didn't eventually use
>a Wish to do the job. Either way, to each his own, by no means do I want to
>sound like I'm telling you the way things should be. Each DM needs to make
>his own decision concerning this. I just thought it might be a subject any
>BR DM would want to think about. The only point I was trying to make was, it
>seems if coming back is not an option, BR becomes an even more heroic
>setting. Where the faint of heart need not strive for greatness. Giving the
>setting a strong Arthurian feel.

My stuff is in my car, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought if
you, the player, fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you're dead forever,
no more attempts possible.
Additionally, I havn't found anywhere in the Birthright rules that
forbids ressurection.
And lastly, any gripe you have with PCs coming back from the dead
is a gripe with AD&D, not Birthright. I, personally, don't like the idea
of a PC I've spent months, or years, developing dying forever for no good
reason other than I didn't roll high enough on a saving throw.
There *is* permanent death; it's when you fail your Ressurection
roll. I've played in several successful AD&D games and in one I was lucky
enough to have a GM and a group of players who got together every thursday
night for 3 years. I worked, and by that I mean WORKED, a character of
mine up from 0 level to 14th, and by that time he had died many, many
times. Yet I still felt pretty damn heroic. Not being able to come back
would have simply meant that I would never have made it past 7th level (the
point at which I first died.) I wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to
see a character develop in personality, power, and history the way I did,
and the experience would have been lessened as a result of it.

[Undertaker]

At 08:54 PM 1/11/97 -0800, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
>
> My stuff is in my car, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought if
>you, the player, fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you're dead forever,
>no more attempts possible.
>

Your right a failed RS roll prevents a character from being brought back to
life, with standard raise dead type spells, but the power of a Wish can
overturn even this if the DM allows. Also with a Wish, time is no factor
when bringing someone back.

>
> Additionally, I havn't found anywhere in the Birthright rules that
>forbids ressurection.
>

Again your right, nowhere does it say this. As I said though, comments made
in the BR Rulebook particularly the parts about BT, just sound like when a
Scion dies he is gone. But I must stress this is just the way it sounds to
me. I understand that not everyone would get the same impression. Much of my
opinion is colored from reading the BR novels, and my Players feelings. They
seem to have gotten the same idea from them as well. That is one of the
reasons I put forth this idea to start with, to see if anyone else had
gotten the same thought.

>
> And lastly, any gripe you have with PCs coming back from the dead
>is a gripe with AD&D, not Birthright. I, personally, don't like the idea
>of a PC I've spent months, or years, developing dying forever for no good
>reason other than I didn't roll high enough on a saving throw.
> There *is* permanent death; it's when you fail your Ressurection
>roll. I've played in several successful AD&D games and in one I was lucky
>enough to have a GM and a group of players who got together every thursday
>night for 3 years. I worked, and by that I mean WORKED, a character of
>mine up from 0 level to 14th, and by that time he had died many, many
>times. Yet I still felt pretty damn heroic. Not being able to come back
>would have simply meant that I would never have made it past 7th level (the
>point at which I first died.) I wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to
>see a character develop in personality, power, and history the way I did,
>and the experience would have been lessened as a result of it.
>

Really this is not a gripe, its an opinion. I just think that each campaign
setting needs to have certain elements looked at in the light of the style
of the setting. In my Greyhawk campaign raise dead magic is not that
uncommon, and can be had with enough gold, or elbow grease. But in BR I just
don't think it fits the style, thats all. Really the RS roll is not a great
thing to use as the end-all-be-all of coming back from the dead. Even an
average Con. will have a fairly high chance of making it, and as I said
before, a Wish can overturn even that restriction. That is not really the
point though. I understand that it can really stink to lose a character just
as you feel he is getting somewhere, but I can't help wondering how much
more heroic the survivors(the other Party members) would have felt if they
knew they had escaped a real chance at oblivion, not just a possible set
back. I know each event was probably unique, and I'm not in any position to
comment on your game, so please don't take offense at my previous statement.
It was a generality, just to give some thought. Many games, and settings,
seem to require an abundance of raise dead magics. In fact I do understand
the need, in some level, to allow characters to return from the dead, as a
game mechanic in all AD&D settings. Its just I question how available it
should be in BR, not in AD&D in general. Each setting needs to have this
subject handled appropriatly, and in the end its still up to the DM. All
that matters is everyone has fun while playing, and if a Player will truley
have their experience ruined with the death of a favorite character, then
maybe raise dead magics should be more available in that game. No matter
what its your game, so you can do as you see fit.

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Matthew M. Colville]

>At 10:36 AM 1/11/97 +0000, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
> My stuff is in my car, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought if
>you, the player, fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you're dead forever,
>no more attempts possible.


I'm replying to myself because I looked it up, and I'm right. If
you fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you are dead forever. Not even a
Wish can bring you back. Only 'Divine Intervention,' (i.e. the GM saying
"ok, what the hell?") can bring you back.

So Micheal Roele rolled 00 for his Ress. Surv. Roll and will
forever more be dead. End of story.

[Michael Andrew Cullingha]

> >At 10:36 AM 1/11/97 +0000, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
> > My stuff is in my car, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought if
> >you, the player, fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you're dead forever,
> >no more attempts possible.
>
>
> I'm replying to myself because I looked it up, and I'm right. If
> you fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you are dead forever. Not even a
> Wish can bring you back. Only 'Divine Intervention,' (i.e. the GM saying
> "ok, what the hell?") can bring you back.
>
> So Micheal Roele rolled 00 for his Ress. Surv. Roll and will
> forever more be dead. End of story.

I've come up with some more possible reasons for why Michael
Roele wasn't brought back to life, but they depend on my
treating the BR novels as canon:

1) In the novel "The Iron Throne", Michael Roele's body was
not recovered because the Anuirean army lost the battle (or
at least it looked that way).

2) In my campaigns, if a character doesn't want to be brought
back to life, nothing can bring him back to life. And if I
remember correctly, MR appeared to have almost a death wish
when he went after the Gorgon. I extrapolated that in death
he was reunited with his wife, and therefore would not want to
be raised from the dead.

So with these, along with the numerous other reasons presented
on this list, it is completely plausible to me that raising the
dead will work on Aebrynis (sp?) even if MR stayed dead.

I'm still undecided on whether a blooded scion that dies will
be brought back to life with his bloodline intact though, but
I'm leaning towards bringing a blooded character back from
the dead as an unblooded character.

Just some food for thought,
Mike
- --
***********************************
Michael Cullingham
macullin@acs.ucalgary.ca
http://www.ucalgary.ca/~macullin/
***********************************

[Undertaker]

At 12:15 PM 1/12/97 -0800, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
>
> I'm replying to myself because I looked it up, and I'm right. If
>you fail your Ressurection Survival roll, you are dead forever. Not even a
>Wish can bring you back. Only 'Divine Intervention,' (i.e. the GM saying
>"ok, what the hell?") can bring you back.
>
> So Micheal Roele rolled 00 for his Ress. Surv. Roll and will
>forever more be dead. End of story.
>

I think a DM should decide on the limitations of a Wish. Not just take a
rule at face value, but thats me, I'm kind of big on DMs having final say
concerning all rules. Regardless of what is printed in the Rulebooks,
although I must point out the rule on RS rolls do not exclude the use of a
Wish specifically. So I think this was one point they wanted to be decided
on by individual DMs. I've been in campaigns where Wishes are granted by
god-like beings, so in effect a Wish is divine intervention. This, like many
things, is handled differently, by different DMs. There is no cut, and dry,
rule to this no matter how hard you look. I stand by my opinion that each DM
should make their own decision concerning the dead returning, but honestly I
can't think of anything less heroic sounding then a failed RS roll. But if
that is the history, and rule, in your game thats fine. I just want a little
more role playing, and less game mechanic in my game. To each his own.
Bottom line though neither of us works for TSR, so neither one of us can
make the decision for why Micheal was not brought back for everyone.
Although according to you they left a big chunk of info. out of the Iron
Throne. I think the two of us have reached an impass. You have your beliefs,
and I have mine, and neither of us is wrong, but at this point I think we
are beating a dead horse(no pun intended). With luck the powers that be have
seen our discussion, and maybe something official will be said, but I think
we'll have to wait for the Book of Priestcraft to find out.

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Undertaker]

At 03:42 PM 1/12/97 MST, Michael Cullingham(macullin@acs.ucalgary.ca)wrote:
>
>I've come up with some more possible reasons for why Michael
>Roele wasn't brought back to life, but they depend on my
>treating the BR novels as canon:
>

>
>2) In my campaigns, if a character doesn't want to be brought
>back to life, nothing can bring him back to life. And if I
>remember correctly, MR appeared to have almost a death wish
>when he went after the Gorgon. I extrapolated that in death
>he was reunited with his wife, and therefore would not want to
>be raised from the dead.
>

I like your idea. It does seem unlikely anyone would want to return from
paradise. It could also make a good adventure for a party to travel to the
afterlife, and convience Micheal, or someone else to come back.

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Jaanus Lillenberg]

Hello

Undertaker wrote:
>
> At 10:36 AM 1/11/97 +0000, Matthew M. Colville(mcolville@earthlink.net)wrote:
> >
> >The *obvious* reason, which someone may have brought up and I may have
> >missed it, that Micheal Roele hasn't been ressurected is this:
> >
> > He failed his ressurection survival roll. Big deal. No need to debate
> >the subject of Ressurection/Raise dead on Cerilia. Famous dead people
> >remain dead because they failed their Ressurection Survival Roll.
> >
>
> That is a simple way to put it, but while it sounds nice, its unlikely that
> every person whom the attempt has been made on would have failed. Most
> importantly it dosen't address the riding concern of PCs returning from the


Why not, to tell them that Oh, lad, priest said he didn't survive the
resurrection. And , oh yes, some years ago, another scion broght here
to be resurrected didnt survive either.

Let them figure out that something is wrong. You dont have to tell them
that Oh, guys, don't even try. That won't work in this world. That
would be plain, at least it looks plain way to put the things for me.


> more, failed checks. Assuming that almost every Regent would have at least
> tried to be brought back if it was possible, and applicable. They all would
> have to have failed their checks, and thats a bit much. Besides thats a

Yes yes, bit much :))

> little too convenient, and dosen't explain why someone didn't eventually use
> a Wish to do the job. Either way, to each his own, by no means do I want to
> sound like I'm telling you the way things should be. Each DM needs to make
> his own decision concerning this. I just thought it might be a subject any
> BR DM would want to think about. The only point I was trying to make was, it
> seems if coming back is not an option, BR becomes an even more heroic
> setting. Where the faint of heart need not strive for greatness. Giving the
> setting a strong Arthurian feel.


Yes, the birthright in the way IS (for me) the most heroic setting
with STRONG Arthurian heel..


Greetings from
Jaanus Lillenberg
- ---
jaanusl@postimees.ee

[Undertaker]

At 12:13 AM 1/14/97 +0200, Jaanus Lillenberg(jaanusl@postimees.ee)wrote:
>
>As I recall, there was also something said about MRs death and why he
>didn't came back in BoM (Book of Magecraft). Check it out :))
>

Thanks for the remind. I'll have to read through it again, and take a look.
You don't happen to remeber the page? I hate to sound lazy, but if you have
it handy, it would save me some time. Thanks again for bringing this up, it
might answer all my wonderings.

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Undertaker]

At 04:20 PM 1/13/97 MST, Michael Cullingham(macullin@acs.ucalgary.ca)wrote:
>>
>> As I recall, there was also something said about MRs death and why he
>> didn't came back in BoM (Book of Magecraft). Check it out :))
>
>I don't have this book yet, but I thought of another reason.
>Perhaps the Gorgon has somehow managed to trap MR's soul or
>something. It seems to me to be something that the Gorgon
>might get his dark priests to do. At least until the day
>the Gorgon figures out how to ressurect MR with bloodline
>intact so that he may steal it. I may just use this one
>myself.
>

What if MR's Ghost haunts the Gorgon. His spectral form could torment him,
on the eve of their fateful battle. Sorry a little RL slipped in there.
While it may not affect game play much, it could still be a neat sidestory.

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net
RL Homepage: http://www.metrolink.net/~veleda/sepulcher.html

[Jaanus Lillenberg]

Hello

Undertaker wrote:
>
> At 04:20 PM 1/13/97 MST, Michael Cullingham(macullin@acs.ucalgary.ca)wrote:
> >>
> >> As I recall, there was also something said about MRs death and why he
> >> didn't came back in BoM (Book of Magecraft). Check it out :))
> >
> >I don't have this book yet, but I thought of another reason.
> >Perhaps the Gorgon has somehow managed to trap MR's soul or
> >something. It seems to me to be something that the Gorgon
> >might get his dark priests to do. At least until the day
> >the Gorgon figures out how to ressurect MR with bloodline
> >intact so that he may steal it. I may just use this one
> >myself.
> >
>
> What if MR's Ghost haunts the Gorgon. His spectral form could torment him,
> on the eve of their fateful battle. Sorry a little RL slipped in there.
> While it may not affect game play much, it could still be a neat sidestory.
>

Yes, perhaps. About spectral scions.. I have the some players playing in
Roesone. They have some equipment which belonged to Black Baron
the founder of Roesone. Now the spectral form of the old Baron will
appear every time the weapons or armour are touched. So it guards
his ownings, but also the present regent has to explain him, why
he will use his possessions :).

About page.. I don't really remember. But I GUESS it was there.
Anyway reading the BoM over again is a thing worth to do anyway :)

With greetings
Jaanus Lillenberg
- ---
jaanusl@postimees.ee