Aduria

[Cec Stacey]

>
> There was one other force present at Diesmar, Azrai's original progeny,
the
> humans from the Adurian empires. What happened to them? It would seem
> only logical that equal amounts of blood were spilled on both sides, so
> wouldn't it stand to reason that there are several blooded scions
tromping
> around Aduria, probably mostly awnsheghlien.
>

I can't remember exactly where I read this, so don't quote me here. Aduria
is a collection of kingdoms, similar to Anuire (of course - Aduria would
have been the Anuirean blueprint) with an emperess ruling over all. In
general, the rulers and realms are evil tyrants, oppresing the people.
Reminds me of Ghoere and Osoerde. Remember that most of the stock
Anuireans, Brechts, Rjurik and Vos came from Aduria, and would have brought
a lot of their culture with them. So, don't expect Aduria to be that much
different from Cerilia. As well, Azrai worship seems to be more accepted
and centralized (state sanctioned?) than in Cerilia.

Just my 1 cp (sorry - taxes, you know)

[Zero]

I just finished reading the Belgariad by David Eddings (can't believe it
took me this long to pick it up). Definitely good source material.

On the Adurian idea:

What I've come up with is a landmass following the cardsheet in the boxed
set pretty closely. The culture is more similar to Anuruire than anything
else, but has it's own flair, and alot more history. There are several
states, most as large as fully three of the great duchies combined, and a
few empires ruled nominally by powerful rulers.

When the 5 tribes left Aduria, they were just that, tribes (or so I
gather). I've allways thought that the Adurians had their own cultures
that were probably as diverse.

Worship of serveral gods very different from the Cerilian pantheon is
enforced and sanctioned, including Azrai (I have yet to decide if the
priests get spells or not).

Since no one has responded:

Does anyone else think it might be possible that Azrai might have survived
Diesmar? In Ruins of Empire there is reference to a church named the Hand
of Azrai, and I could swear that the archpriest was a spell-caster of some
kind.

[JOHN RICKARDS]

> Does anyone else think it might be possible that Azrai might have survived
> Diesmar? In Ruins of Empire there is reference to a church named the Hand
> of Azrai, and I could swear that the archpriest was a spell-caster of some
> kind.

The church in the Gorgon's Crown is run by a mysterious woman, and
the church (or the woman) is called the Hand of Azrai. I think, since
the Gorgon is Azrai's champion - his right hand man if you will -
this could be some Gorgon-worship cult. I don't know whether they
would still get priest powers, or if they did, whether tjose powers
might come form Kriesha or Belenik indirectly. Remember the Gorgon
would have killed both those gods and stolen their bloodline, but he
hasn't figured out a way to bring them to Cerilia yet.


John Rickards

"He who is looking for something has lost something."
"And he who is not looking?"
"He gets run over."



PS. Dan. Hahahahaha.

[Dustin Evermore]

zero wrote:
>On the Adurian idea:
>
>What I've come up with is a landmass following the cardsheet in the
boxed
>set pretty closely. The culture is more similar to Anuruire than
anything
>else, but has it's own flair, and alot more history. There are several
>states, most as large as fully three of the great duchies combined, and
a
>few empires ruled nominally by powerful rulers.
>
>When the 5 tribes left Aduria, they were just that, tribes (or so I
>gather). I've allways thought that the Adurians had their own cultures
>that were probably as diverse.
>
>Worship of serveral gods very different from the Cerilian pantheon is
>enforced and sanctioned, including Azrai (I have yet to decide if the
>priests get spells or not).
>
>Since no one has responded:
>
>Does anyone else think it might be possible that Azrai might have
survived
>Diesmar? In Ruins of Empire there is reference to a church named the
Hand
>of Azrai, and I could swear that the archpriest was a spell-caster of
some
>kind.
>
I like your ideas about Aduria. Care to share?

I believe I read in the Bloode Enemies book that the Apocalypse is said
to be the dying breath of Azrai which has taken on a life of it's own and
drifts about the continent trying to find Azrai's remains. I think you can
imagine what might happen then... But this gives me the idea that
churches to Azrai may yet still be able to draw priestly power from a portion of
Azrai that still lives. Perhaps not the "Breath" of Azrai, but perhaps
there is something of him hidden somewhere that "lives" and gathers power
from it's followers and in return grants them spells. You might consider,
therefore, limiting priests of Azrai to a certain level by reason that
Azrai has been so terribly weakened by Deismaar (interesting name, that--I
believe it literally translates to Death of Gods or Gods' Death). By the
way, the Hand of Azrai is not the only church of Azrai in Cerilia! Check
out Havens of the Great Bay (Kiergaard) and I believe there are some
humanoid shamans to Azrai...

Yep, I've been brewing new campaign ideas about a great quest to prevent
the return of Azrai to full power. BWAHAHAHAHAHAAhahahahahaha
:::cough::hack::

Dustin Evermore

[swords]

>Does anyone else think it might be possible that Azrai might have survived
>Diesmar? In Ruins of Empire there is reference to a church named the Hand
>of Azrai, and I could swear that the archpriest was a spell-caster of some
>kind.

It may be possible that some of Azrai's power is left. I for one think that
the Cold Rider in the shadow world is either a weakened fraction of Azrai
essence or one of his avatars that somehow survived. He was after all the
strongest of all of the gods so he may be on his way back. My current
campaign is a mad scramble by the PC's to try and stop him from doing so.

Michael

[Hatzitaskos]

>>Does anyone else think it might be possible that Azrai might have survived
>>Diesmar? In Ruins of Empire there is reference to a church named the Hand
>>of Azrai, and I could swear that the archpriest was a spell-caster of some
>>kind.
>
>It may be possible that some of Azrai's power is left. I for one think that
>the Cold Rider in the shadow world is either a weakened fraction of Azrai
>essence or one of his avatars that somehow survived. He was after all the
>strongest of all of the gods so he may be on his way back. My current
>campaign is a mad scramble by the PC's to try and stop him from doing so.
>
>Michael
>

For one, the Hand of Azrai, as far as i can tell, is just a small church,
mainly maintained by the Gorgon (correct me if i'm wrong). Anyway, this is
not the first time a dead god's portfolio has been assimilated by another.
Remember what happened in Toril after the time of troubles. Cyric gave
Bane's clerics spells even to fight his clerics.

As for the Cold Rider, I do not see how a single avatar could survive. It
is, however, a very interesting idea. I believe Azrai just died, and the
LOst are the last fragments of his power. The Cold Rider is probably just a
small god from another plane.

Kostis "Gandalf-Nimrodel"

[Zero]

Hey, thanks...

I'm still working on it, and I think I'll post to the list when I get it
finished, or email privately...

Zero

[802967876@RUMAC.UPR.CLU.]

I would think that the GOrgon would be able to grant priest spells like
the Serpent. What does everyone else think?

Luis

[802967876@RUMAC.UPR.CLU.]

Azrai is dead. It is the reason the blood derivation exists....
Now there could be a blood power nobody knows of that allows the scion or
abomination to give spell to priests who worship them. That is what I think is
happening with the Serpent and maybe happening with the Gorgon..

Luis

[Hatzitaskos]

i posted sth, check it out. detailed work. u just might get bored.
;)

Kostis "Joran Aglondier" Hatzitaskos

[Hatzitaskos]

Can the serpent grant priest spells? I am not usre of that or if they are some kind of other
ability. The serpent has the reputation of a god, but i think it is just a reputation.
And i think the idea that the Gorgon might be able to grant spells is out of the question.
Why would he? Blooded characters are NOT even in the least gods. And remember,
regardless of the effect he has had on Anuire, the GOrgon is but a mere child to the Lost,
Azrai's true children and followers.

Kostis "Joran Aglondier" Hatzitaskos

[Hatzitaskos]

>Now there could be a blood power nobody knows of that allows the scion or
>abomination to give spell to priests who worship them. That is what I think is
>happening with the Serpent and maybe happening with the Gorgon..

Now, there COULD be such a power. BUt After all, the Gorgon has no delusions of
divinity, and he is not worshiped. The Hand of Azrai does not perform its rituals for the
GOrogn, but rather the Gorgon participates in its rituals which honour Azrai.
Churches can exist without active gods, or another god may be giving them the spells
they need. Look at the cases of Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms respectivelly.

Kostis "Joran Aglondier" Hatzitaskos

[Robert Ripley]

Hatzitaskos wrote:

> >Now there could be a blood power nobody knows of that allows the
> scion or
> >abomination to give spell to priests who worship them. That is what
> I think is
> >happening with the Serpent and maybe happening with the Gorgon..
>
> Now, there COULD be such a power. BUt After all, the Gorgon has no
> delusions of
> divinity,

why don't you ask him, I don't think the Gorgon would turn it down...

> and he is not worshiped. The Hand of Azrai does not perform its
> rituals for the
> GOrogn, but rather the Gorgon participates in its rituals which honour
> Azrai.

Gorgon honours no one. He is the master of the Crown and would very much
likemore.

> Churches can exist without active gods, or another god may be giving
> them the spells
> they need. Look at the cases of Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms
> respectivelly.
>
well this ain't Dark Sun or FR, but I do have to agree. How bout that
church of Vosgaardthat is not only un-owned but worships a culture...
wierd.
- --

Bob R.

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************************************************** *****************************

[Undertaker]

At 01:06 AM 5/16/97 +0200, Hatzitaskos(gandalf@ath.forthnet.gr)wrote:
>

>
>Churches can exist without active gods, or another god may be giving them
the >spells they need. Look at the cases of Dark Sun and Forgotten Realms
>respectivelly.
>

And don't forget the two major religions of Mystara are Philosophies, and
have nothing to do with Gods. It is possible that a person's faith may grant
them the ability to tap in to the universe and use its power, without any
divine assisstance. And I believe thats whats happening with the followers
of the Serpent.

Undertaker, richt@metrolink.net

"War is a matter of vital importance to the State;
the province of life or death;
the road to survival or ruin.
It is mandatory that it be thoroughly studied."
-Sun Tzu,(The Art of War)-

[Gandalf the White]

> I've been thinking. Has anybody here tried a campaign where the
>PC's are
>trying to bring back Azrai???
> You see some of the guys in my groop whant to make an Elf group
>that has
>that as it's primary goal! Yep! They want to bring back the bad guy! So I
>woundered if anybody has tried this, if so then how did it go??
>
>Any other comments are always welcome!

Actually..... no.
But in my campaign, my wizard wants to bring back a dead god too. He's
after Basaia. Well, my DM believes the bloodstone legend is not just a
legend, and it makes quite some sense too. Basaia though is the only god on
which it is plausible that this might happen. All the other's bloodstones
are scattered like hell.
If Azrai came back, or how he would... well, no idea yet, sorry. I'll hink
of sth and tell u.

[Grendel Todd]

On the Hand of Azrai (& related cults):

Three possible explinations -

1) The "Hand" could be refering to one of the Gods who replaced Azrai
(both were his champions in life), and as such the clergy may be
supported by said god to continue serving the cause of Darkness.

2) The "Hand" could be an Artifact (like the "Hand of Venica"). The
High Priestess of this Church (as I remember it) is unblooded, yet
still controls the temples. Perhaps this Artifact channels the faith
of the worshipers, acting as a 'regency battery' to allow her to
control the temples.

3) Perhaps the "Hand of Azrai" is a sham. The High Priestess simply
a priestess of one of the Vos Gods, while the actual holdings are held
by the Gorgon to raise money & keep other faiths out. The Priestess
acts as a lieutenant for the Gorgon and oversees the holdings for him.


"...when a prince has the goodwill of the people he must not worry
about conspiracies; but when the people are hostile and regard him
with hatered he must go in fear of everything & everyone..."

- Machiavelli, THE PRINCE


- ------------

Grendel Todd

[Gandalf]

>Who are the Lost, and where are they mentioned? I don't remember seeing
>them...
>Richard

The Lost are Azrai's true champions. I am not sure where they are
mentioned, but i do know they exist and they are official. You see, we are
running a campaign right now where we have to find them and stop some
devilish plot to take over Cerilia. So my DM is a bit reluctant to let me
in in info about them. But i will tell you as soon as i learn more. I think
the Raven is one of the Lost. My DM once told me he had found 2 that were
straightly called Lost, and another which was implied.

-

[Gandalf the White]

> I read in abominations of Cerilia( I think! ) about the Gorgon.
>In that story he claimes that HE choose not to become a GOD ( He was
>Azrai's 3
>champion, or so he says ! ) because he wanted basicly to rule all of Cerilia.
>If this is true, who knows, then others may also have choosen to remain. But
>these may still be able to give there followers cleric spells.
>
>It's just a tought.
>
>EAJ

Actually, the Gorgon could NOT become a god, because of his great hatred of
mankind. Wouldn't make sense to create a god that would destroy his
followers, eh? Anyway,he had all the qualifications and he WAS Azrai's
champion, though not yet one of the Lost. He was close enough to the blast
to become a god, but he just couldn't become one.

-

[Gandalf]

>Yes, maybe the Gorgon honour no Man, and is a worshiper of Azrai. But I
>don't now why he remember me that typical guy that serve his lord blindly
>but when only they two are yet living and his lord says to him: "Well, we
>have no more enemyes", he answers: "I have another one...".
>Nadastor, Wizard of the Black Robes

Yes, perhaps. But it never got to that. The gorgon wanted the throne and
the destruction of humankind. If Azrai gave him that, i still think he
would be content to rule as a tyrant over Cerilia. But even if he didn't,
the whole thing didn't go that far. Azrai just died, and the Gorgon still
wants him back, to help him strike at his enemies.
I rather see the Gorgon as this most-powerful guy that though he sees far,
he just doesn't see far enough.
As Gandalf said about Sauron, "a wise fool..."

-

[Gandalf]

>uh... -News Flash- Azrai's dead... just thought you might want to
>know.. I don't think Gorgy would worship something immaterial like the
>dead and gone Azrai.

Yeah, well. read my postings. First off, gorgy ain't as smart as everybody
thinks he is: he's a short-sighted fool. And fools like him are known to
worship dead things. Has happened repeatedly in other AD&D worlds. Why not
here?
Also, Basaia's still worshipped in Djapar (the original Basarji homeland).
Why not Azrai?
Also, dead gods may be backed up by living ones... even if they are not
worshiped directly and just give spells to some idiot that thinks their
god's alive, gods still get power.
Cyric did that with Bane's Clerics. Why shouldn't one of the evil gods do
so with the Hand of Azrai? And how do you explain the fact that the Gorgon
is the head of the church of Azrai? Is it just his favorite hobby? To
pretend to worship gods he thinks are dead. Let's face it. The gorgon's old
and mad with delusions of grandeur he will never have. And he still
believes Azrai is somewhere there and might come back to aid him.

-

[Robert Ripley]

Gandalf wrote:

> >uh... -News Flash- Azrai's dead... just thought you might want to
> >know.. I don't think Gorgy would worship something immaterial like
> the
> >dead and gone Azrai.
>
> Yeah, well. read my postings. First off, gorgy ain't as smart as
> everybody
> thinks he is: he's a short-sighted fool. And fools like him are known
> to
> worship dead things. Has happened repeatedly in other AD&D worlds. Why
> not
> here?
> Also, Basaia's still worshipped in Djapar (the original Basarji
> homeland).
> Why not Azrai?
> Also, dead gods may be backed up by living ones... even if they are
> not
> worshiped directly and just give spells to some idiot that thinks
> their
> god's alive, gods still get power.
> Cyric did that with Bane's Clerics. Why shouldn't one of the evil gods
> do
> so with the Hand of Azrai? And how do you explain the fact that the
> Gorgon
> is the head of the church of Azrai? Is it just his favorite hobby? To
> pretend to worship gods he thinks are dead. Let's face it. The
> gorgon's old
> and mad with delusions of grandeur he will never have. And he still
> believes Azrai is somewhere there and might come back to aid him.

Yeah you know all those idiots with Intelligence 19 (supragenius) they
don't know
what is alive or dead.

Gorgy is not the head of any churches either... Hand of Azrai is led by

some woman who's name is "Hand of Azrai."

It seems to me you need to get access to some Gorgon information.

- --

Bob R.

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[Gandalf]

> Gorgy is not the head of any churches either... Hand of Azrai is led by
>
>some woman who's name is "Hand of Azrai."
>
> It seems to me you need to get access to some Gorgon information.
>
>--
>
> Bob R.

Intelligence is no sign of wisdom.... countless felons, in all kinds of
fantasy, much more devious than the Gorgon have been defeated because they
were too smart for their own good. And not wise one bit. Also, please note
that intelligence does not work exactly right when coupled by insanity.
And yes, i DO know who runs the church. But if you had the slightest idea
about how churches in that era are run, you'd know that there's a huge
difference between the the head of the church and the leader of the church.
One runs it, one supervises and protects. Look at what happened in
Byzantium. Thw emperor was allways a believer and the head of the church.
All church holdings and estate were owned and manipulated by the archbishop.

-

[verruchter@menagerie.ne]

>Says whatever DM that wants to.

IM> So you're not claiming it's a Birthright Rule.

IM> Really, an unneccasary comment, since 'whatever DM that wants to,'
>could state that all elves has three heads and all humans were gods.

Not really uneccesary. The rules are basically guidelines. So yes, if
a DM wanted to state that all elves had three heads and all humans were
gods, they could. But I think they would have problems finding players.
Whereas if the GM in question wanted to go with a rule to allow
for the resurrection for a God long dead, people would probably just
think it was a good plotline.

* 1st 2.00 #9097 * "Say something warm and mushy." "Oatmeal!"

[Gandalf]

>>>>

On the Hand of Azrai (& related cults):

Three possible explinations -

1) The "Hand" could be refering to one of the Gods who replaced Azrai
(both were his champions in life), and as such the clergy may be
supported by said god to continue serving the cause of Darkness.

2) The "Hand" could be an Artifact (like the "Hand of Venica"). The
High Priestess of this Church (as I remember it) is unblooded, yet
still controls the temples. Perhaps this Artifact channels the faith
of the worshipers, acting as a 'regency battery' to allow her to
control the temples.

3) Perhaps the "Hand of Azrai" is a sham. The High Priestess simply a
priestess of one of the Vos Gods, while the actual holdings are held by
the Gorgon to raise money & keep other faiths out. The Priestess acts
as a lieutenant for the Gorgon and oversees the holdings for him.


"...when a prince has the goodwill of the people he must not worry
about conspiracies; but when the people are hostile and regard him with
hatered he must go in fear of everything & everyone..."

- Machiavelli, THE PRINCE


- ------------

Grendel Todd


I think:

Either Azrai is secretly back and he fuels the temple (which i am 99%
sure is not the case), either some other god allows the priests to gain
spells from him. Whether the "Hand" knows of this or not, ie knows she
serves another or she has been fooled, i have no idea.

And what i think is happenig is your third suggestion. A good fuels the
spells, while the Gorgon amasses the Regency, gold and influence. I
also have my suspicions tho that he is also caught in the trap and
thinks Azrai is really back. Remember, just being samrt (19 int) doesnt
mean you know everything or you are correct in all. The gorgon is also
known to be kinda mad u know.

-

[Robert Ripley]

> Grendel Todd
>
> I think:
> Either Azrai is secretly back and he fuels the temple (which i am 99%
> sure is not the case)

you should be 100% on this.

> , either some other god allows the priests to
> gain spells from him.

It says in the Abominations book she is also a high level priestess
of Kriesha and Belinik

> Whether the "Hand" knows of this or not, ie
> knows she serves another or she has been fooled, i have no idea.
> And what i think is happenig is your third suggestion. A good fuels
> the spells, while the Gorgon amasses the Regency, gold and influence.

nope definately not... it would say so in the Abominations handbook if
thiswas so.

> I also have my suspicions tho that he is also caught in the trap and
> thinks Azrai is really back. Remember, just being samrt (19 int)
> doesnt mean you know everything or you are correct in all. The gorgon
> is also known to be kinda mad u know.

No Way. I know you put your little explanation in there for me, but that
ain't
true. The guy watched Azrai blow up practically right in front of him.
And watched
as the Kreisha and Belinik went up to become gods. There's no way he has
been duped
into believing that Azrai is alive. Poor Raesene was a bit too far
away to become a god
and so voila here he is today trying to amass enough power
to be the next best thing, ruler of Anuire.

Once again you need to get more info on the Gorgon. Try the abominations
book
it is has a lot of info on the Gorgon and all his Lieutenants. (HOA is
NOT one of them)

- --

Bob R.

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************************************************** *****************************

[David Sean Brown]

> >
> > I think:
> > Either Azrai is secretly back and he fuels the temple (which i am 99%
> > sure is not the case)
>
> you should be 100% on this.

Really? Why is that? In your own campaign, you can do anything you want.
If you say that Azrai is back in some form or other, then he is. If you
check some other source material, you can learn that it is not possibloe
to complelety destroy a god's essence. THe best that you can do is reduce
them to a formless lump floating the astral plane, able to regain some of
their divinity by having only ONE worshipper. Divinity is not a finite
thing, so by releasing his divine energy to the people of Cerfilia,
doesn't mean he has to reclaim all of it to return. Actually, one of the
ideas I've been toying with in my campaig is that the release of all the
divine energy in the form of bloodline (remember, in most cases you can
only acquire 2 bloodline pts per kill...what happebns to the rest), has
allowed the form that was once Azrai to regain some small portion of his
power...as more energy is released as awnsheighein and scions of Azrai
have bloodtheft preformed on them, the more powerful he becomes...I
suppose this isn't entirely improbable.
> >
> , either some other god allows the priests to > > gain spells from him.
>
> It says in the Abominations book she is also a high level priestess
> of Kriesha and Belinik

Once you switch Gods, you lose the abilities granted to you by previos
dieties (them gods are pretty fickle and vain...they aren't big into
sharing worshippers) One of these two MAY be powering her spells, but
unlikly, especially if she is claiming to be the priest of Azrai.
>
> >Whether the "Hand" knows of this or not,ie
> > knows she serves another or she has been fooled, i have no idea.
> > And what i think is happenig is your third suggestion. A good fuels
> > the spells, while the Gorgon amasses the Regency, gold and influence.
>
> nope definately not... it would say so in the Abominations handbook if
> thiswas so.

Uh...why? The sourcebooks don't tell you absoultely everything you
know..they do actually leave some things for you to develop on your
own...part of the "design your own campaign" thing
>
> > I also have my suspicions tho that he is also caught in the trap and
> > thinks Azrai is really back. Remember, just being samrt (19 int)
> > doesnt mean you know everything or you are correct in all. The gorgon
> > is also known to be kinda mad u know.
>
> No Way. I know you put your little explanation in there for me, but that
> ain't
> true. The guy watched Azrai blow up practically right in front of him.
> And watched
> as the Kreisha and Belinik went up to become gods. There's no way he has
> been duped
> into believing that Azrai is alive. Poor Raesene was a bit too far
> away to become a god
> and so voila here he is today trying to amass enough power
> to be the next best thing, ruler of Anuire.
>
> Once again you need to get more info on the Gorgon. Try the abominations
> book
> it is has a lot of info on the Gorgon and all his Lieutenants. (HOA is
> NOT one of them)

Like I said before...all the info is not in the Book...the stuff that is
there is very good, but only as complete as you want it to be.

[Robert Ripley]

David Sean Brown wrote:

> > >
> > > I think:
> > > Either Azrai is secretly back and he fuels the temple (which i am
> 99%
> > > sure is not the case)
> >
> > you should be 100% on this.
>
> Really? Why is that? In your own campaign, you can do anything you
> want.
> If you say that Azrai is back in some form or other, then he is.

Well I am talking about official Birthright. Nothing printed has Azrai
still alive.You can create talking dogs in your campaign for all I care.

> If you
> check some other source material, you can learn that it is not
> possibloe
> to complelety destroy a god's essence.

Well I'm not talking about Planescape or FR or Greyhawk. I'm
talkingabout Birthright.

> THe best that you can do is reduce
> them to a formless lump floating the astral plane, able to regain some
> of
> their divinity by having only ONE worshipper. Divinity is not a
> finite
> thing, so by releasing his divine energy to the people of Cerfilia,
> doesn't mean he has to reclaim all of it to return. Actually, one of
> the
> ideas I've been toying with in my campaig is that the release of all
> the
> divine energy in the form of bloodline (remember, in most cases you
> can
> only acquire 2 bloodline pts per kill...what happebns to the rest),
> has
> allowed the form that was once Azrai to regain some small portion of
> his
> power...as more energy is released as awnsheighein and scions of Azrai
>
> have bloodtheft preformed on them, the more powerful he becomes...I
> suppose this isn't entirely improbable.
> > >
> > , either some other god allows the priests to > > gain spells from
> him.
> >
> > It says in the Abominations book she is also a high level priestess
> > of Kriesha and Belinik
>
> Once you switch Gods, you lose the abilities granted to you by previos
>
> dieties (them gods are pretty fickle and vain...they aren't big into
> sharing worshippers) One of these two MAY be powering her spells, but
>
> unlikly, especially if she is claiming to be the priest of Azrai.

Well for some reason or another she is a high priestess to 2 gods.
That's whatthe book says.

> >
> > >Whether the "Hand" knows of this or not,ie
> > > knows she serves another or she has been fooled, i have no idea.
> > > And what i think is happenig is your third suggestion. A good
> fuels
> > > the spells, while the Gorgon amasses the Regency, gold and
> influence.
> >
> > nope definately not... it would say so in the Abominations handbook
> if
> > thiswas so.
>
> Uh...why? The sourcebooks don't tell you absoultely everything you
> know..they do actually leave some things for you to develop on your
> own...part of the "design your own campaign" thing

Abominations tells you everything.

> >
> > > I also have my suspicions tho that he is also caught in the trap
> and
> > > thinks Azrai is really back. Remember, just being samrt (19 int)
> > > doesnt mean you know everything or you are correct in all. The
> gorgon
> > > is also known to be kinda mad u know.
> >
> > No Way. I know you put your little explanation in there for me, but
> that
> > ain't
> > true. The guy watched Azrai blow up practically right in front of
> him.
> > And watched
> > as the Kreisha and Belinik went up to become gods. There's no way he
> has
> > been duped
> > into believing that Azrai is alive. Poor Raesene was a bit too
> far
> > away to become a god
> > and so voila here he is today trying to amass enough power
> > to be the next best thing, ruler of Anuire.
> >
> > Once again you need to get more info on the Gorgon. Try the
> abominations
> > book
> > it is has a lot of info on the Gorgon and all his Lieutenants. (HOA
> is
> > NOT one of them)
>
> Like I said before...all the info is not in the Book...the stuff that
> is
> there is very good, but only as complete as you want it to be.

I'm not talking about your own little bizzaro Birthright. Printed
materialshould be all that is considered official.

> ************************************************** *************************
>
> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
> line
>

- --

Bob R.
- -the anti-birthright-

************************************************** *****************************

PBeM- Birthright, Regents of the Southern Marches
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobripley/index.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobripley/page3.html
bobripley@earthlink.net
************************************************** *****************************

[David Sean Brown]

O.K...It would appear there is a bit of discrepency as to what is being
talked about with regards to certain topics in this group. Unless I am
mistaken, anything brought up here is open to opinion, and not wholly a
discussion of "the printed material" which related solely to Birthright.
I don't really appreciate being slammed because my opinion differs from
someone elses ("my own little bizarro Birthrioght world"????? What is
that supposed to mean???) I would like to feel that anyone's opinion is
valid and deserves consideration on any particular topic. I admit, a lot
of what I have to say is not "from the rules", but whay is that necessary?
Everyone is allowed to interpret the rules as they see fit, and everyone
here can benefit from hearing what they have to say. If Joe Blow wants to
incorporate some FR into his campaign, and it seems to work, then great!
I want to hear about it because I might use it.

Sorry for this little outburst, but I think it is something everyone
should be aware of. If you have any big problems with what I've said,
feel free to e-mail me personally.

Sean Brown
brownds@tupmcms1.med.dal.ca

[Gandalf]

>David Sean Brown wrote:
>
>> > >
>> > > I think:
>> > > Either Azrai is secretly back and he fuels the temple (which i am
>> 99%
>> > > sure is not the case)
>> >
>> > you should be 100% on this.
>>
>> Really? Why is that? In your own campaign, you can do anything you
>> want.
>> If you say that Azrai is back in some form or other, then he is.
>
>Well I am talking about official Birthright. Nothing printed has Azrai
>still alive.You can create talking dogs in your campaign for all I care.
>
>> If you
>> check some other source material, you can learn that it is not
>> possibloe
>> to complelety destroy a god's essence.
>
>Well I'm not talking about Planescape or FR or Greyhawk. I'm
>talkingabout Birthright.
>
>> THe best that you can do is reduce
>> them to a formless lump floating the astral plane, able to regain some
>> of
>> their divinity by having only ONE worshipper. Divinity is not a
>> finite
>> thing, so by releasing his divine energy to the people of Cerfilia,
>> doesn't mean he has to reclaim all of it to return. Actually, one of
>> the
>> ideas I've been toying with in my campaig is that the release of all
>> the
>> divine energy in the form of bloodline (remember, in most cases you
>> can
>> only acquire 2 bloodline pts per kill...what happebns to the rest),
>> has
>> allowed the form that was once Azrai to regain some small portion of
>> his
>> power...as more energy is released as awnsheighein and scions of Azrai
>>
>> have bloodtheft preformed on them, the more powerful he becomes...I
>> suppose this isn't entirely improbable.
>> > >
>> > , either some other god allows the priests to > > gain spells from
>> him.
>> >
>> > It says in the Abominations book she is also a high level priestess
>> > of Kriesha and Belinik
>>
>> Once you switch Gods, you lose the abilities granted to you by previos
>>
>> dieties (them gods are pretty fickle and vain...they aren't big into
>> sharing worshippers) One of these two MAY be powering her spells, but
>>
>> unlikly, especially if she is claiming to be the priest of Azrai.
>
> Well for some reason or another she is a high priestess to 2 gods.
>That's whatthe book says.
>
>> >
>> > >Whether the "Hand" knows of this or not,ie
>> > > knows she serves another or she has been fooled, i have no idea.
>> > > And what i think is happenig is your third suggestion. A good
>> fuels
>> > > the spells, while the Gorgon amasses the Regency, gold and
>> influence.
>> >
>> > nope definately not... it would say so in the Abominations handbook
>> if
>> > thiswas so.
>>
>> Uh...why? The sourcebooks don't tell you absoultely everything you
>> know..they do actually leave some things for you to develop on your
>> own...part of the "design your own campaign" thing
>
>Abominations tells you everything.
>
>> >
>> > > I also have my suspicions tho that he is also caught in the trap
>> and
>> > > thinks Azrai is really back. Remember, just being samrt (19 int)
>> > > doesnt mean you know everything or you are correct in all. The
>> gorgon
>> > > is also known to be kinda mad u know.
>> >
>> > No Way. I know you put your little explanation in there for me, but
>> that
>> > ain't
>> > true. The guy watched Azrai blow up practically right in front of
>> him.
>> > And watched
>> > as the Kreisha and Belinik went up to become gods. There's no way he
>> has
>> > been duped
>> > into believing that Azrai is alive. Poor Raesene was a bit too
>> far
>> > away to become a god
>> > and so voila here he is today trying to amass enough power
>> > to be the next best thing, ruler of Anuire.
>> >
>> > Once again you need to get more info on the Gorgon. Try the
>> abominations
>> > book
>> > it is has a lot of info on the Gorgon and all his Lieutenants. (HOA
>> is
>> > NOT one of them)
>>
>> Like I said before...all the info is not in the Book...the stuff that
>> is
>> there is very good, but only as complete as you want it to be.
>
>I'm not talking about your own little bizzaro Birthright. Printed
>materialshould be all that is considered official.
>
>> ************************************************** *************************
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this list send mail to majordomo@mpgn.com with the
>> line
>> 'unsubscribe birthright' as the body of the message.
>
>
>
>--
>
> Bob R.
>-the anti-birthright-

Ripley-
u seem to be negativ about everything. chill out, ok?
and what i think we're trying to say here is that campaigns are never 100%
by the book, that we are epanding on them a bit when we talk about topics
like Azrai coming back, and that we are not forcing you to accept these
changes. We are merely discussing a possibility. Being obsessed with the
"official" has done noone much good in the past. And it IS true that TSR
just keeps some things hidden cos she hasn't decided herself, quite simply.
Please don't feel like we are trying to force you to believe, or anybody
else here, to accept our ideas as The Truth in YOUR birthright campaign.
MERELY POSSIBILITIES. And please stop answering like you're really asking
for the flaming... because it IS tempting.
You can't just reject another guys ideas because they "are not printed".
Even in real life fantasy and skepticism exist. Why not in BR, which is a
fantasy setting after all?

Think before u answer,

-

[Gandalf]

>O.K...It would appear there is a bit of discrepency as to what is being
>talked about with regards to certain topics in this group. Unless I am
>mistaken, anything brought up here is open to opinion, and not wholly a
>discussion of "the printed material" which related solely to Birthright.
>I don't really appreciate being slammed because my opinion differs from
>someone elses ("my own little bizarro Birthrioght world"????? What is
>that supposed to mean???) I would like to feel that anyone's opinion is
>valid and deserves consideration on any particular topic. I admit, a lot
>of what I have to say is not "from the rules", but whay is that necessary?
>Everyone is allowed to interpret the rules as they see fit, and everyone
>here can benefit from hearing what they have to say. If Joe Blow wants to
>incorporate some FR into his campaign, and it seems to work, then great!
>I want to hear about it because I might use it.
>
>Sorry for this little outburst, but I think it is something everyone
>should be aware of. If you have any big problems with what I've said,
>feel free to e-mail me personally.
>
>Sean Brown
>brownds@tupmcms1.med.dal.ca

Exactly my point. Let's be a little more open-mined here, shall we?

-

[Robert Ripley]

David Sean Brown wrote:

> O.K...It would appear there is a bit of discrepency as to what is
> being
> talked about with regards to certain topics in this group. Unless I
> am
> mistaken, anything brought up here is open to opinion, and not wholly
> a
> discussion of "the printed material" which related solely to
> Birthright.

Well see my problem is that I will make a point like- Azrai is dead -and
thenyou and Gandalf go off saying "not in my game!" If we all prattle
on about our
own little game quirks that change the history of Birthright I don't see
how
you are helping anyone.

I admit, a lot of what I have to say is not "from the rules", but whay
is that
necessary? Everyone is allowed to interpret the rules as they see fit,
and everyone here can benefit from hearing what they have to say.

But it's not the rules it's the basic history of Birthright that y'all
are
messing up and claiming it's true.

- --

Bob R.

************************************************** *****************************

PBeM- Birthright, Regents of the Southern Marches
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobripley/index.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~bobripley/page3.html
bobripley@earthlink.net
************************************************** *****************************

[Matthew M. Colville]

>> >
>> > I think:
>> > Either Azrai is secretly back and he fuels the temple (which i am 99%
>> > sure is not the case)
>>
>> you should be 100% on this.
>
>Really? Why is that? In your own campaign, you can do anything you want.
>If you say that Azrai is back in some form or other, then he is.

Ok, this is starting to bug me. He didn't say "You MUST be 100%
sure!" He said, "you should be." Saying "you can do anything you want
with your campaign," is a tautology. No information is gained. We all
already know that any GM can do whatever he wants with his campaign, even
mutually contradictory things.

There's a difference between what we *can* do and what each person
thinks we *should* do. If I say "That's dumb, you shouldn't do it that
way!" responding with "yeah, but I can do anything I want with my
campaign," is *not the same* as saying "It's not dumb, and here's why. . ."
You havn't refuted the argument, just tried to sidetrack it.

[Espen A. Johnsen]

I've been thinking. Has anybody here tried a campaign where the PC's are
trying to bring back Azrai???
You see some of the guys in my groop whant to make an Elf group that has
that as it's primary goal! Yep! They want to bring back the bad guy! So I
woundered if anybody has tried this, if so then how did it go??

Any other comments are always welcome!

EAJ

[Espen A. Johnsen]

I read in abominations of Cerilia( I think! ) about the Gorgon.
In that story he claimes that HE choose not to become a GOD ( He was Azrai's 3
champion, or so he says ! ) because he wanted basicly to rule all of Cerilia.
If this is true, who knows, then others may also have choosen to remain. But
these may still be able to give there followers cleric spells.

It's just a tought.

EAJ