Maximum units in a realm

[Shawn Hudson]

At 04:19 PM 5/31/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>p.s. If anyone is interested, the story of how I became regent is pretty
>funny..
>>
>Let's hear the story. :)

Well, it's fairly short. First off, I'm playing a LE F/T who was 7/8 at the
time. My DM, being the pushover he is, gave me a Sword +2, Nine Lives
Stealer(I didn't ask for it, but he gave it). This hadn't been much of a
factor, since I rarely if ever roll a natural 20. My character was the
chamberlain more or less of the Duke Flaertes of Tuornen, who was played by
another PC. Well, the DM drops the hint one day that I'm actually related to
the Endier family (Lyssandra, the one who was missing, is my great-great
grandma I think). And he then explained the Guilder Kalien situation. So,
being the agressive LE player I was, I decided to relieve GK of his regency.
I talked to the nobles, the Maccelns, and got their backing on my project,
and then, in the most grandiose style possible, strolled into GK's throne
room with the nobles at my back and challenged him to a dual for the regency.

Dual starts, and at this point I'm kidding with the DM about me just rolling
a 20 and getting it over with. The DM wins initiative, and hits me for like
6 points or something. Then, I turn around and roll a 20. The rest, as they
say, is history. Endier is now without a doubt the richest province, I'm
married to Diem's daughter, giving me peace with him, and I'm clearing 30-50
GB a turn thanks to a couple of new trade routes, and the fact that my
friend the Duke took Alamie, thanks to a 25 GB loan on my part, and rewarded
me with nearly all of the guild holdings in Alamie! So, my friend the new
ArchDuke is married to Prince Avan's daughter, Avan has somehow gotten the
go ahead from the Chamberlain, and now we're gearing up to crush Ghoere,
Boeruine, and anyone else in our way.

That's the campaign in brief, any comments are welcome.

Shawn Hudson
stludson@lec.okcu.edu

[Zero]

IMHO I think that having a max number of units is a very good idea. While
it may limit the power of one-province nations (such as Endier), I think
that this is at least semi-realistic. Such nations have to find other
means of achieving power (as Guilder Kalien has in the basic books). They
//should not\\ be able to take on the Baron of Ghoere's or the Duke of
Diemed's armies by themselves.

In support of this:
The first run at BR that I had was a trial for the players to make their
nations. I had one extremely paranoid player that had a stranglehold on
his entire country through vassal regent lieutenants. About the 3rd domain
turn (BTW: this campaign has since died) he started raising armies, using
the maximum muster and proclaiming them as "border defense".
About the time he noticed Roesone (his real-world wife's country) and
Diemed (NPC) building up armies, he protested, saying that he was just
defending himself. At this point he had a ratio of 1:5. That's citizens
to soldiers. I don't think there's any nation in the world that could
support that many soldiers... period. Not to mention your neighbors are
going to get //very\\ nervous.



HOUSE RULE

This was to counter the above problem:

A nation can support as many regular army units as it's total number of
province levels (maintain this one loosely, it's a good break level). If a
player stomps this rule, he begins to have soldiers who are busy "defending
the country" running around getting into trouble (spending their pay in
bars, getting drunk, taking full advantage of the various pleasures of the
flesh, etc). Pretty soon deserters start getting bored and go about
committing all sorts of rapacious deeds, right after they figure out where
the patrols aren't.
Remember that these soldiers do not have any other occupations, they are
there to wield weapons and kill the enemy or suppress the locals. They do
not farm, they do not log, they do not contribute in any way to the well
being of the country except where borders are related. Soldiers that
contribute to the country are called Levies, and covered in the rule-book.
For every Domain turn in which the regent has a number of units over the
maximum number established above, the DM rolls a d20 every Domain Turn.
Base target is 4, raised by 2 for every unit over the max. A successful
result means that something bad happen. My favorite is to lose a unit per
die point under the success, and also this many law holdings across the
Realm. The law holdings either are controlled by a new bandit king or
controlled by a bunch of seperate little blooded leeches. Let the player
sort it out from there

Mercenaries can be hired out, of course, but any time where the number of
Mercenary units in a Realm (as per Rulebook description) exceeds the number
of regular units, there is a chance of a blooded great captain coming along
to usurp the realm (hey, mercs fight for money, and if they can take it
and the country.... ) Use the same situation as above, except that
when the roll succeeds at this point, the regent suddenly has a whole bunch
of enemy soldiers inside his borders (if they were posted inside castles,
then there is a possibility of losing the astle too). War is declared by
the Great Captain and sorted out from there. I also recommend that the
Great Captain immediately has a level 1 law holding in his base of power.

Well, nuff of that, anyone feel free to expand on it or shoot it down, use
it if you lake, don't if you don't.

Still Planning the downfall of all of Anuire
Zero

[Pan]

- ----------
> From: zero
> To: birthright@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] - Maximum units in a realm
> Date: Wednesday, June 04, 1997 9:11 PM
>
> IMHO I think that having a max number of units is a very good idea.

With more troops than the level of the province, the demand on food is
going to increase. This will increase the cost and soon the lower class,
who is already suffering, will begin to starve because they will not be
able to buy any food. So I agree, if a regent has enough gold to keep more
units than level of a province in a province for more that 2 or 3 action
rounds, then he should face consequences. Of course, if the units are only
in the province temporarily, like moving troops, then he should incur no
penalties. Just MHO.
Bob V.

[dsbrown@is2.dal.c]

> IMHO I think that having a max number of units is a very good idea. While
> it may limit the power of one-province nations (such as Endier), I think
> that this is at least semi-realistic. Such nations have to find other
> means of achieving power (as Guilder Kalien has in the basic books). They
> //should not\\ be able to take on the Baron of Ghoere's or the Duke of
> Diemed's armies by themselves.

Why not? If you can afford to hire an army that large, (as I said in
an earlier post) there really isn't any reason you couldn't import
food to feed them. As well, as a guild regent (for example) you don't
have to keep your armies in your lands. Fortified holdings are a
great place to store excess troops, and I guarantee you, the regent
of the province isn't gonna want to feed your troops, so you anre
gonna have to do it. So far, nost of the discussion has been based
around the premise that a regent is keeping his growing army in
his/he own province, but this doesn't have to be the case.

Just stirring the pot a little to see what floats to the top...

Sean

[Cec Stacey]

>
> Well, it's fairly short. First off, I'm playing a LE F/T who was 7/8 at
the
> time. My DM, being the pushover he is, gave me a Sword +2, Nine Lives
> Stealer(I didn't ask for it, but he gave it). This hadn't been much of a
> factor, since I rarely if ever roll a natural 20. My character was the
> chamberlain more or less of the Duke Flaertes of Tuornen, who was played
by
> another PC. Well, the DM drops the hint one day that I'm actually related
to
> the Endier family (Lyssandra, the one who was missing, is my great-great
> grandma I think). And he then explained the Guilder Kalien situation. So,
> being the agressive LE player I was, I decided to relieve GK of his
regency.
> I talked to the nobles, the Maccelns, and got their backing on my
project,
> and then, in the most grandiose style possible, strolled into GK's throne
> room with the nobles at my back and challenged him to a dual for the
regency.
>
> Dual starts, and at this point I'm kidding with the DM about me just
rolling
> a 20 and getting it over with. The DM wins initiative, and hits me for
like
> 6 points or something. Then, I turn around and roll a 20. The rest, as
they
> say, is history. Endier is now without a doubt the richest province, I'm
> married to Diem's daughter, giving me peace with him, and I'm clearing
30-50
> GB a turn thanks to a couple of new trade routes, and the fact that my
> friend the Duke took Alamie, thanks to a 25 GB loan on my part, and
rewarded
> me with nearly all of the guild holdings in Alamie! So, my friend the new
> ArchDuke is married to Prince Avan's daughter, Avan has somehow gotten
the
> go ahead from the Chamberlain, and now we're gearing up to crush Ghoere,
> Boeruine, and anyone else in our way.
>
> That's the campaign in brief, any comments are welcome.
>
> Shawn Hudson


Just out of curiosity, how big is your treasury? Could you afford 40 GB
for a pair of horses on a whim?

[Cec Stacey]

>
> IMHO I think that having a max number of units is a very good idea.
While
> it may limit the power of one-province nations (such as Endier), I think
> that this is at least semi-realistic. Such nations have to find other
> means of achieving power (as Guilder Kalien has in the basic books).
They
> //should not\\ be able to take on the Baron of Ghoere's or the Duke of
> Diemed's armies by themselves.

This is true...


. At this point he had a ratio of 1:5. That's citizens
> to soldiers. I don't think there's any nation in the world that could
> support that many soldiers... period. Not to mention your neighbors are
> going to get //very\\ nervous.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Sweeden, don't all males of a certain age
have to join the militia? And who's nervous of Sweeden's militaristic
expansionist policies?


. They do not farm, they do not log, they do not contribute in any way to
the well
> being of the country except where borders are related.

Personally, I'm a soldier, and I resent being told that I don't contribute
to the well being of my country.

You've got the right idea that there needs to be limits, but maybe the
limits should be on types of units, not number of units. For example, to
equip everyone in your country with a halberd, pike or crossbow wouldn't be
that expenisive compared to mustering a heck of a lot of units. Force them
all to train every Tuesday night (or whatever), and you have an effective
militia. In this case, you have a 100% (or close - granted not everyone
will participate) ratio of "civilian to military" mix. But, in the same
scenario, it doesn't make sense to equip everyone with a warhorse,
platemail and longsword. I relate these two examples to raising infantry
and raising knights. Personally I'd put a limit on knights, but not
necessarily infantry. (and certainly not levies, which are untrained
footmen armed with pitchforks, shovels, rakes, and anything else they can
find.)

[Zero]

> > means of achieving power (as Guilder Kalien has in the basic books).
They
> > //should not\\ be able to take on the Baron of Ghoere's or the Duke of
> > Diemed's armies by themselves.
>
> Why not? If you can afford to hire an army that large, (as I said in
> an earlier post) there really isn't any reason you couldn't import
> food to feed them. As well, as a guild regent (for example) you don't
> have to keep your armies in your lands. Fortified holdings are a

Nice point, and absolutely right. Guilders, Priests, Wizards (and even
other Warriors) can station troops wherever they have holdings. Those
troops are still the regent's, but (forgive my pickiness) they are in the
regent's domain, not his realm. The realm, in Kalien's case, would be
Endier (the provice), while the domain would be all the guild holdings
outside the country.

"Storing" armies outside your realm may also be nice, but keep in mind that
the regent of that realm must agree to the proposition, otherwise its an
act of war (or close enough for the paranoid xenophobes in charge of most
BR countries). Secondly, should any troops stored outside the realm be
used in an attack, the place where they were "stored" would also be
implicated in the attack to some degree, especially if the troops directly
attacked the victim from country X.

Just some thoughts.

Tim

[Zero]

> Correct me if I'm wrong, but in Sweeden, don't all males of a certain age
> have to join the militia? And who's nervous of Sweeden's militaristic
> expansionist policies?

Too true. I was thinking more along the lines of Iraq and such. Suppose
the soviets had an active military on that order of magnitude (and were
showing aggressive tendencies)... Aside from this that the regents of BR
are (IMHO) xenophobic on an order of magnitude scale far greater than most
nations in are world.


> Personally, I'm a soldier, and I resent being told that I don't
contribute
> to the well being of my country.

Cec, I'm sorry. These statements were not geared toward modern military or
in any way intended to offend the people that defend our country.

Modern militaries (especially the US) are a far cry from the armies of
Innocent III, Richard the Lionheart (after the crusades, I can't really see
such a tryant having humanitarian missions, can you? After the blatant
slaughter of over 3,000 unarmed muslims who surrendered to him... ) I
based my statements on my perception of Aebyrnis and the social structure
of Anuire. **In that arena** I stand by my earlier statements. Those
soldiers are there *only* to defend borders and wage wars (kind of a bit
like Saddam's bunch).

Now, any readers out there offended by that one, I am just a poor stupid
American who can only fluently speak one language and I am a product of the
public schools, so flame me if ya like. :)

> You've got the right idea that there needs to be limits, but maybe the
> limits should be on types of units, not number of units. For example, to
> equip everyone in your country with a halberd, pike or crossbow wouldn't
be
> that expenisive compared to mustering a heck of a lot of units. Force
them
> all to train every Tuesday night (or whatever), and you have an effective
> militia. In this case, you have a 100% (or close - granted not everyone

who plants and harvets on Tuesday night (or whatever)?

> will participate) ratio of "civilian to military" mix. But, in the same
> scenario, it doesn't make sense to equip everyone with a warhorse,
> platemail and longsword. I relate these two examples to raising infantry
> and raising knights. Personally I'd put a limit on knights, but not
> necessarily infantry. (and certainly not levies, which are untrained
> footmen armed with pitchforks, shovels, rakes, and anything else they can
> find.)

Great points. I still won't let players get around these units being
levies, however. As per the rules, a number of levy units can be raised
equal to the province level before that level decreses (It may just be a 1
level to 1 unit ration, the Muster Armies action in the rulebook is kinda
vague, but I'd read something else and can't remember where). Now, as per
the action description this militia is composed of soldiers "who have other
jobs". Training could increase the effectiveness of the levies, perhaps
upgrading them to irregulars... check out some of the Rjurik nations.

Quick point: Halbreds are not easy to use effectively (there were some
pretty intese schools of fighting styles in Europe, wicked too). Pikes are
more so, and crossbows? Outfitting your entire populace with arms suddenly
gives poorly armed brigands and thieves access to military grade hardware
(check out how effective crossbows are in Birthright, you've suddenly given
the highwayman the ability to kill your finest knights)

[Zero]

> I don't mean to hamper everyone's thought's on this topic, but a realm
can
> house as much as the regent can afford..I was in the Marine Corps for 4
years
> and lived on a desert base. The amount of military that lived on the
base
> overshadowed all other popluations within over 100 miles. That's about
two
> BR provinces. Yet we had food and housing. Imagine that....military
units
> actually out numbering the civilians. Wel it goes to show you that if
you
> can pay for them you can have them. The cost on the domains budget alone
> will control the amount of troops a realm will have.
>
>
> kariu

You also had a nation benefitting from the industrial revolution and with
the buying power of the US supplying you and shipping. We have (as another
person pointed out) one of the smallest proportional amies in the world.
Again, now dows not equate to then, and no-one in Cerilia seems to have
invented the tractor... not to mention most wheat harvesting would be done
by hand, not machine (and certainly not magic) -- again, your campaign,
your choice...

[Kariu@aol.co]

Ok new idea...

I still hold with my orginal post regarding no maximum limit of units in a
province, but I now offer this idea to maybe help compensate.

In the american colonial days the british passed a law known as the
quartering act which basically meant that the colonists had to house and feed
the local soliders. It can be reasonably assumed that a province that has
more units than it's level, (maybe many more?).. Might experience some of the
same situations. The colonists grew resentful and hated the quartering act.
Why? Well solider's came in demanded food and drink(ale-bear-mead), and
then made life for the colonists a living disaster. It's bring down the
public's image of the soliders and then the public morale. Even before this
act had been passed the prescence of these solider's made the colonists feel
like they were being made prisoners in their own community.

In Brition the idea of a modern police didn't develop until the early 1800's
with the Bay Street Runners. Why? The public had a distrust of the
government and at the time felt the added security didn't equate to the
sacrifice. Now translate into birthright. Maybe the loyality level of a
province should be affected by large numbers of units.? It does have
revelance in the history of the USA and also in England.

Anyone have comments or critizems?


Kariu