Racial modifiers

[KAI BESTE]

>
> Here's another question from the inquiring minds:
>
> In cerilia, can the racial modifiers for humans increase a
> score beyond 18? For example, can a Brecht have a Dexterity of 19?
> Just a thought.
>
> Kurt Wiegel

IMHO, they should be able to increase a score to 19. I've ruled that
way in two cases. Every other racial modifier increases or decreases
the maximum, so why not for humans, too?

just my 2GB

Kai

[Sellenus]

What rules do you prefer for racial modifiers? 3rd ed or 2nd ed Birthright, or some combination?

Dwarf +2 con, -2 cha (3rd ed) +2 con, -2 dex (2nd ed BR)
Elf +2 dex, -2 con (3rd ed) +1 dex,+1 int,-1 con, -1 str (BR)

Minor differences, easy enough to work with...but

Half-Elf, no 3rd ed modifiers. And what about regional modifiers for Humans?

Just curious, we still use the 2nd ed Birthright modifiers.

[Strahd]

... for elves I use +2 Cha, -2 Str in addition to the 2nd ed. mechanics.
As for dwarves, the stony Cerilian dwarves could have +4 con, -4 dex. If you look the 2nd ed. Racial aility requirements, the dwarves can't have more than 14 dexterity.
You could use -3 dex,-1 cha (taking in mind the max 17 cha)but min-maxers would make your life difficult.

[Lawgiver]

To tip our hand a bit (don't kill me guys :)) the 3e rules under development thus far have, but are subject to change:

Elves
+2 Dexterity, +1 Charisma, -2 Constitution, -1 Strength

Dwarves:
+2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity

Half-Elves:
+1 Dexterity, -1 Constitution (it is a minor version of elves to reflect the mixed blood)

[Sellenus]

Why the +1 Cha over the +1 Int in 2nd ed BR?

Are there still regional modifiers for Humans?

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Sellenus
Why the +1 Cha over the +1 Int in 2nd ed BR?

Is there an echo in here???
I personally feel an elf's charisma is more influencial than their intelligence. Their race is known for their love of dance, poetry, song, sotry elling, etc. which are all Charisma based skills. I would veiw their "higher" intelligence as due more to their age than their innate abilities. I personally would adjust the Aging Effects table in the PHB to reflect the increase of knowledge over time, but that's just me. ;) (not all of the other developers agree either)


Orginally posted by Sellenus
Are there still regional modifiers for Humans?

This is still up in the air. Rather than adjust ability scores we are looking more toward adjusting skills and feats to reflect cultural differences. I personally prefer to leave human abilities scores as initially rolled (I beleive Doom agree's).

[Riegan Swordwraith]

If I may toss in my two coppers........

I beleive humans should have cultural feats and skills rather than ability score adjustments.I think it adds something more to them.

Just my opinion

[Sellenus]

that is probably a better idea for Humans, similar to the regional feats in FR

[Crazy Wolf]

You guys did not think that the odd numbers were bad from a power gamer view? Hey, it is your baby to do what you want with but that is a serious move from everything published so far from WotC and OGL.

I also am a fan of using the regional feats. The different human races in Wheel of Time are very different and that is how they were solved. I know this is an old thread but this is the first time I saw it. ;)

[Green Knight]

Elves: -2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha
Dwarves: +2 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, -2 Cha
Halflings: -4 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Wis
Half-elves: +2 Cha

HUMANS
The humans +/- 1 is part of their special abilities, much like the bonus feat and skill point.
Anuireans -1 Dex, +1 Wis
Brecht +1 Dex, -1 Wis
Khinasi -1 Con, +1 Int
Masetian -1 Str, +1 Cha
Rjurik +1 Con, -1 Cha
Vos +1 Str, -1 Int

Well, seems I'm a little more extreme than most.

[Crazy Wolf]

I don't think of it as extreme. It must work in your game so you must balance those sweet stat adjustments with roleplaying penelties or something.

CW

[GreenKnight]

Seems I'm not the only Green Knight running around... :(

Anyway, I think it'd be a dumb move to start doing +1 stat modifiers. The reason is that stats give bonuses for every 2 points. So someone with say a 12 gets no advantage from a stat increase, while someone with a 13 gets no penalty from a stat reduction. And of course, power gamers can stick an odd number in the stats which get modified, essentially getting themselves a +2 bonus, with no penalties.

With the way D20 is structured, it'd be a flat out dumb idea to have stat modifiers of +1 or -1.

As for humans, I don't think stat modifieres are necessary. Humans in 3E are fine as is. It was necessary in 2E to represent the cultural differences. But now that humans get bonus feats and extra skill points it's no longer necessary. Just do something similar to what Forgotten Realms did (and it'd be easier than Forgotten Realms, since Birthright is much more easily divisible into regions than Forgotten Realms). Have an advantage for humans who come from a specific region and who took a preferred class from that region.

For instance, a Brecht would get an advantage if he were to play a Rogue. But if he were to play a Barbarian then he'd miss out on said advantage. In Forgotten Realms the advantage is extra equipment, so Birthright can do something like that or something different.

Feats which are also region specific will help contribute to the distinctiveness of the human cultures on Cerilia. Mounted Combat, for instance, probably isn't available in Vos lands unless it's with a Varsk, while it's available without hindrance in Anuire.

Expertise would be available to people from Brecht lands, while Spirited Charge would be disallowed in Khinasi lands as their culture doesn't use cavalry in that fashion.

You can also have a rule that states that the bonus human feat HAS to come from the regional list of feats.

So IMO, stat modifiers are wholly unnecessary to represent the different cultures in Cerilia. Standard 3E humans will work out just fine. The distinctiveness of the various cultures can be achieved through other ways without modifying humans, themselves.

And +1/-1 stat modifiers would be a dumb move. Stick to even stat modifiers, and don't use odd stat modifiers.

BTW: No human culture should be prevented from pursuing whatever class they like, like in 2E where only Anuireans and Khinasi could be Paladins. What's the point of making that restriction if it'll be broken in the same boxed set where you introduced an NPC like Teodor Profiev, a Vos Paladin who breaks those same rules? That's something from 2E that needs to be left behind, Any human from any of the 5 cultures should be allowed to play any class. However, as I said above, you can ENCOURAGE players to pick classed favored by their culture, giving Brechts an advantage if they play Rogues, Vos if they play Barbarians, etc. If a Vos player wants to be a Paladin, then fine, but in that case he'll miss out on a bonus which his Vos Barbarian compatriot would receive for playing a class more in tune with his culture.

[Birthright-L]

Hi

The +1/-1 would be an advantage (just like the feat and the extra skill
point) humans have, allowing them to maximize their bonuses a little.

It is no dumber to differentiate humans in this way, than to use say
regional feats (some of the FR ones are pretty weird). IMO, +1/-1 stat
bonuses are just fine, but you can of course get along without them.

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GreenKnight wrote:
Seems I'm not the only Green Knight running around... :(

Anyway, I think it'd be a dumb move to start doing +1 stat modifiers.
The reason is that stats give bonuses for every 2 points. So someone
with say a 12 gets no advantage from a stat increase, while someone with
a 13 gets no penalty from a stat reduction. And of course, power gamers
can stick an odd number in the stats which get modified, essentially
getting themselves a +2 bonus, with no penalties.

With the way D20 is structured, it'd be a flat out dumb idea to have
stat modifiers of +1 or -1.

As for humans, I don't think stat modifieres are necessary. Humans in
3E are fine as is. It was necessary in 2E to represent the cultural
differences. But now that humans get bonus feats and extra skill points
it's no longer necessary. Just do something similar to what Forgotten
Realms did (and it'd be easier than Forgotten Realms, since Birthright
is much more easily divisible into regions than Forgotten Realms). Have
an advantage for humans who come from a specific region and who took a
preferred class from that region.

For instance, a Brecht would get an advantage if he were to play a
Rogue. But if he were to play a Barbarian then he'd miss out on said
advantage. In Forgotten Realms the advantage is extra equipment, so
Birthright can do something like that or something different.

Feats which are also region specific will help contribute to the
distinctiveness of the human cultures on Cerilia. Mounted Combat, for
instance, probably isn't available in Vos lands unless it's with a
Varsk, while it's available without hindrance in Anuire.

Expertise would be available to people from Brecht lands, while Spirited
Charge would be disallowed in Khinasi lands as their culture doesn't
use cavalry in that fashion.

You can also have a rule that states that the bonus human feat HAS to
come from the regional list of feats.

So IMO, stat modifiers are wholly unnecessary to represent the different
cultures in Cerilia. Standard 3E humans will work out just fine. The
distinctiveness of the various cultures can be achieved through other
ways without modifying humans, themselves.

And +1/-1 stat modifiers would be a dumb move. Stick to even stat
modifiers, and don't use odd stat modifiers.

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[GreenKnight]

Hmm? So why'd my post get deleted?

[GreenKnight]

This is odd. My post and the ones below it don't appear on the thread, but they do appear below the reply box.

Anyway, whatever your opinion of the specific Forgotten Realms feats, that doesn't make the concept itself a bad idea (And personally, I don't see anything bad about them).


The +1/-1 would be an advantage (just like the feat and the extra skill
point) humans have, allowing them to maximize their bonuses a little.

It is no dumber to differentiate humans in this way, than to use say
regional feats (some of the FR ones are pretty weird). IMO, +1/-1 stat
bonuses are just fine, but you can of course get along without them.

The difference is that you're needlessly unbalancing a PC race. Regional feats helps shape the cultures flavor without modifying the race itself, whether it be human, elf, dwarf, etc.

IMO, +1/-1 is a bad idea. In that case, then, you may as well just give humans a +2 stat bonus and no penalties, since that's effectively what you'd be doing, anyway. May as well save the min/maxers some time, and not put them through being looked down upon by other players when they arrange their stats so as to give them a bonus but not a penalty.

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Orginally posted by Crazy Wolf

You guys did not think that the odd numbers were bad from a power gamer view?


Everything is bad, from a power gamer view. A power gamer delights in taking everything and screwing it up for everyone else.

[Mark_Aurel]

The developers moved away from the odd modifiers a long time ago. Regional feats are definitely in.