Live and let die...

[Arjan]

Hi all,
recently I attempted to renew contact with wotc (as we used to have due to our contract with them).

I felt kind motivated to do so with the upcoming D&D Next, feeling it might give the setting a nice boost again.

But they have declined the offer to restore any form of contact between them and us.

I took my conclusions and my motivation to keep this site and setting alive went down the drain.

I hereby quit as webmaster of birthright.net

Its been a nice 12 year ride, met some wonderful people.
thank you all! and take care of yourself!

Arjan

note: I am not shutting down the site.. the site is not mine, its always been the community who owns it.
I am merely stepping down as its maintainer.

[TheChamberlain]

This is indeed bad news. Your efforts, time and passion have been truly appreciated by myself and I can assure you from all of us here in the community.

You have created here an invaluable asset for me as a long serving GM of the Birthright world. One that is a haven for us who love this wonderful world.

For my part I wish to thank you for your hard work and passion over the years, and wish you the very best in the future.

The Chamberlain

[Fiordhraoi]

Best wishes in the future. Thank you for maintaining this as long as you have. I hope that the resources and archives will remain available. If the cost of hosting in time or money ever gets to be too much, please send out a message again. Although I wouldn't be able to do updates, I know that I and others would happily keep the site up in its present form, at the least.

[Muaadeeb]

Thank you for your efforts. I lost faith in WoTC after 3.5.

I have been an active supporter of D&D for 28 years and have learned to love the gamers but only give patronage to the companies and products that I enjoy and have faith in.

I hope your passion will rekindle with time. Please continue to make this site available to us... if you ever plan on shutting it down please give ample time for the community to be able to propose an alternate or buy the domain from you...

[Arius Vistoon]

in "happy new year", there are the word "happy" but it's a bad new (for us).

however, I undestand. i also contact Wotc at the beginning of the d&d next (the same topic but not only for birthright ; for planescape campaign too) and the answer was the same as you.

Because, your are the pillar and the light of this website, i/we hope you can change your mind. So let's us known if we can do something to help you to stay here.

I wish to say you thanks for alll your job do here (visible and invisible for all of us) and for your personality.

Arius Vistoon

[hazard]

Thank you for everything Arjan. All the best. This is dark hour for Birthright community.

[SirRobin]

Thank you for everything you've done. I may not be active but Birthright will always have a special place in my mind. As does the community that has done so much to keep Birthright growing and evolving.

[THE JACKAL]

Good luck to you Arjan!

It is sad that WOTC apparently has no desire to give longtime D&D supporters the least bit of respect. This is truly outrageous!

Is there a petition somewhere that we can sign? Is there any action being taken to let these fools know that they have alienated a significant number of their supporters?

I was going to give D&D Next a shot, (stopped buying their stuff when 3E came out) but now I don’t think I will bother!

[Arjan]

Cheers all!

trust me i really have tried.. i got an endless email conversation with their lawyer and several brand managers trying to make my point and trying to let them see the value and even benefits for sustaining contact in combi with D&D next..

but they simply turned me down.. multiple times.

This really hurts my heart and feelings especially after what we have accomplished as a community after 12 years that i have to make a decision like this.. its like saying your last goodbye to your 12 year old kid....

i am afraid petitions would not help.. as it has never helped in the past.

[Fearless_Leader]

A dark hour, indeed.

As others have said, I would like to thank Arjan for his dedication to the site for over a decade, during which time we've passed through multiple D&D editions, the BRCS, a wiki, and much more. This is certainly far more dedication and patience than I could ever hope to muster, and its helped keep the community and the hobby alive.

The state of WOTC and its relationship with the fans is pretty bad these days; as bad as I've seen it since the late days of TSR. I read some interesting stuff when D&D Next was first announced about structural changes in the RPG market and the way Hasbro handles its various divisions, and I think a lot of the problem stems from those facts. But this is not the time to discuss that.

I don't hang out here enough to stay abreast of who all is on the admin team, but if y'all need assistance, I would be more than happy to help, although my skills at maintaining a website this complex are pretty much non-existent.

Anyway, thanks again to Arjan!

[Dyark]

It is really a sad day.

Thanks for all the effort and hard work you did. Let us know if you think to take down birthright.net we will find a way to keep it alive.

For WOTC it is history repeating itself, it feels the same way as when TSR went down, about a year or 2 before they went bankrupt they got a lot of product on the market and they decide not to respect what the community wanted. I understand that they need to make money, but dnd is such a loyal and specific community.

I am mad at a none responsive company, we are in the 21st century, people like to be heard and respected.

[Jaleela]

Thanks for all of your efforts, Arjan.

[Caliene]

Do not go quiet into that good night! But then you have raged against the dying of the light and WotC has tried to snuff it out. I have not been an active participant on this site, having lost my Birthright group long ago, but I love it and deeply appreciate all the work you've done for it.

Thank you, and all the best

[AndrewTall]

I'm not hugely surprised that WOTC aren't interested, everything for BR has been done by the fans for a long time.

You've done a huge amount for the site for a long time and have my sincere thanks, I'd hope that you stay involved but understand your feelings.

[Sorontar]

Thanks Arjan for all your efforts at making the Birthright setting even more viable than TSR/WotC ever made it. It is a pity that their approach to fans and 'official' fansites has changed. Thank you for allowing to us to continually work on bringing together the work from source publications and fan developments in a way that is manageble and flexible, like all good RPG games should be.

Thanks to everyone who has helped through the years in working with WotC. Hopefully Birthright as such will still continue to be developed by us even if we no longer have the sanction we used to have.

Sorontar

[Edonel Bladesong]

Thanks again Arjan. The effort you have put on this through the years has been tremendous and I remember all the efforts you and the others had to put especially every time the site, wiki, forum providers, web tools, etc. were updated.

This setting has always been my favorite D&D setting since it first came out in the 90's and this is indeed sad news both on the loss of our "blessing" from WotC and of your departure.

I wish you all the best and thanks again.

[Lifesbane]

Thank you very much Arjan for all that you have done over the years.

If the admin team need anything to keep the site running please let us know.

[Delnee]

You've put a lot of effort into maintaining this site over the years, and its tragic to see that undermined.

I have certainly appreciated your dedication in keeping Birthright alive, for all fans of the setting, even though I may not have written so as often as I should have.

I do hope you manage to rekindle your enthusiasm, and can keep this site going in a viable form.

[Thelandrin]

I'm sorry to hear that, Arjan. Birthright has been a lost setting for a long while, but it is a shame to have that repeatedly confirmed. You've been great all this time!

[Magian]

Hey Arjan,

I am sorry that you are going through a much undeserved tribulation. You have provided for our community and deserve your passion to be recognized. I'm certain that we here the community appreciate you. After all, we are yours. It is your dedication that has kept us together at this meeting place. Thank you sir.

My hope is that when the burn of this disappointing fiasco that has caused you such grief subsides, you will once again have fun with this world of dreams and create and conquer and defend against the encroachment of your foes.

In the words of my current passion the character Drago Malik in the Eastern Marches game DMed by Juan the Ninja Master DM:

"If they leave it behind, take it! Make it yours and do with it what you will! If they come back looking for it, then cut the throats of their soldiers, bloodtheft their lords, and have your way with their women! When they run and hide behind their walls of stone know that you and your people are free to walk the land and call it home like the wolves of the north. No lord or god controls our destiny it is ours to choose!"

[Arentak]

Thanks for your efforts over the years! This site wouldn't be possible without you!

[cesare76]

Thank you very much Arjan for all that you have done.

[Lee]

Thanks for the hard work, Arjan! I hope your enthusiasm returns.

[TheChamberlain]

What will be the future of this fantastic site and wiki?

[stew31r]

Thank you Arjan. I played Birthright years ago, and only came back to it recently. This webpage and the community that supports it are amazing, and a large part of that came from your efforts.

[Swashbuckler]

Arjan, thank you for all of your efforts with this site and with the Birthright setting. I hope that time will heal whatever wounds you have been dealt by the indifference of WotC, and that we will continue to 'see' both you and your influence on this site in the days to come.

I am curious, however, in that you hinted at some 'contract'ual obligations in your first post. Is this site under any kind of contract to or with WotC, or any other company?

[arpig2]

I would like to add my thanks to those of the others, the Birthright community, and indeed the wider D&D community as a whole will be the poorer for this development.

I wish you the best of luck in all your future endeavours.

Sincerly
Bob.

[AndrewTall]

Arjan, thank you for all of your efforts with this site and with the Birthright setting. I hope that time will heal whatever wounds you have been dealt by the indifference of WotC, and that we will continue to 'see' both you and your influence on this site in the days to come.

I am curious, however, in that you hinted at some 'contract'ual obligations in your first post. Is this site under any kind of contract to or with WotC, or any other company?

BR.net was the official site for 2e Birthright and Arjan signed a contract with WOTC on our behalf permitting us certain use of their copyright, joint copyright ownership of anything that we created, etc. We had various requirements such as updating to new editions which is what led to the BRCS and of course banning all copyright breaches such as posting up pdf's of entire books, links to e-copies, etc.

[marcum uth mather]

Thanks Arjan. You have kept my favorite game alive. It reminds me of how to stay young and keep my imagination alive. At Gen-Con this year I bought a unopened Birthright box set. I will hopefully be playing with people again soon using pathfinder as a base. Thanks again for all your work as the glue that helped to keep this ball of string together. I hope to see you on here again as a player and poster. If there is money needed to help keep this piece of history around please let us know. You leaving has inspired me to come around more often now. If nothing else then to keep a incredible world alive.

Your Friend Marcum

[Getters]

Arjan your a legion on your own and personally i feel sick by this corporate scum have done your all was be a man around here regardless what other think thank you for the years of dedication and support your be miss

[Rey]

Such a sad day to return to this site and read this thread. Thank you Arjan for all your effort and your enthusiasm. I wish I had at least half of it, and some of the stuff I had meant to write would have been up here for all to enjoy. Alas, my blood is but a tainted one and could never measure up.
I hope one day you will return and WotC will come to some senses.

'Guardians of the halls of heart
When we from my homeland depart
To challenge the gods of emptiness
May the quest begin!'

[Fizz]

I understand your frustration Arjan. You've done great work here, and the community will always be grateful. I am sure WotC's idiocy will not detract from the passion that you have for the setting.

D&D Next probably won't be out until '14. As you know, Rich Baker had said he'd love to go back to Birthright again. Maybe with a voice like his and a strong petition, we could talk some sense into WotC someday.

But in the meanwhile, you will be missed Arjan. Don't be a stranger.


-Fizz

[Thatoneguy]

It is sad when yet another gamer even loses a small piece of their Zest for gaming. I have seen many players stop coming to the table over the years, and it is always a sad event.

[bigmac]

Cheers all!

trust me i really have tried.. i got an endless email conversation with their lawyer and several brand managers trying to make my point and trying to let them see the value and even benefits for sustaining contact in combi with D&D next..

but they simply turned me down.. multiple times.

This really hurts my heart and feelings especially after what we have accomplished as a community after 12 years that i have to make a decision like this.. its like saying your last goodbye to your 12 year old kid....

Hi Arjan,

I just found out about this at the Birthright forum at The Piazza (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9863).

You probably don't remember me. I'm primarily a Spelljammer fan, and spend less time talking to people about Birthright than SJ. You helped me out a while back, when someone came to The Piazza and said they were having trouble logging on here.

I'm really sorry that WotC's actions have hurt your feelings.

These lawyers don't really care about D&D. They are paid to protect WotC's IP - not to help other people look after dormant IP.

And the other people you are talking about believe that they need to concentrate on a single campaign setting. They think they need to only have Forgotten Realms in order to make D&D Next work better than 4th Edition. They are not bad people, but this is the party line that WotC announced and they are going to have to stick with it for the next few years.

I think these people are wrong. I think the Edition Treadmill is a mistake - a terrible mistake. I think that D&D's "wealth" is in its different campaign settings. They give people a choice of different worlds to play in, with each world having its own combination of "cool stuff". Switching from Greyhawk to Birthright or from Birthright to Ravenloft allows a gaming group to explore a new land, with different themes and different challanges. Switching from one system to another system, just makes people learn a lot of mathematics. Playing with two or more settings adds to the challange of roleplaying. It's fun. Playing with two or more sets of rules is more like taking mathematics exams. It's boring. Every time they reboot the rules, more people jump ship and stay with the deprecated ruleset.

And from my point of view, as someone that likes D&D to have multiple campaign settings, the edition treadmill makes it harder for fan communities to keep up with the current rules. And if the community can't keep up, the player base wants to stick with the old rules.

I think you guys have done an amazing job with the BRCS stuff. You have done more than some of the other setting communities. But I think that putting all your hopes and dreams on staying with D&D Next is a mistake. I'm not saying that you should avoid D&D Next (D&D Next + Birthright could be fun). But if you are putting all your hopes and dreams on trying to negotiate a D&D Next Birthright deal, I think you are talking to the wrong people.

There are other people out there, outside of these forums, that respect what you guys do. You should be talking to them instead. More importantly, there are people that do not know Birthright very well. I think you should be talking to them too. And there are even people who never heard of Birthright, but who might think it is a really cool setting.

You have some brilliant freebies over here. There are D&D fans elsewhere that have never seen them. There are people out there that don't realise that they are destined to be new Birthright fans. These are people that your time would be better spent on. These are people that could pass links onto friends elsewhere and spread the word.

Not all of the D&D fans outside of the Birthright.net forums will jump into the community or start up a Birthright campaign, but some will. I spent about two years hunting for Spelljammer fans on Facebook and managed to find a lot of people that didn't realise that anyone else still cared. So I know that, if you go looking for lost Birthright fans (or new Birthright fans) you will find them.

Like I said, I'm sorry that WotC's actions hurt your feelings. But I think that turning your back on the Birthright community is the wrong reaction. A bunch of outsiders that don't get the importance of Birthright are the cause of your pain. Birthright fans have not rejected you. Maybe you don't want to continue to do administration work forever. Maybe you want a holiday. Maybe you need reinforcements in your forum team or something. But I don't see how turning your back on Birthright is the right answer to a bunch of suits not getting how cool the setting is.

I do hope you will reconsider. I would like to see fans of the 2nd Edition TSR settings working together to help raise awareness of the fact that there are worlds out there other than Forgotten Realms. And I would like to see websites like Birthright.net teaming up with the other leading D&D setting sites (official or not) to help make sure every fan of every out of print setting can find their fan community.

You say live and let die - I say live and let live. Or to hijack a phrase from the boss of Dragonlance Nexus: Long live Birthright!


i am afraid petitions would not help.. as it has never helped in the past.

Actually, there is an area where a petition might help Birthright. In case you missed the news that went along with the D&D Next announcement, WotC said they were bringing back the out of print downloads in some form. That form has recently been revealed as the D&D Classics website (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=9881) (run by DriveThru RPG).

DriveThru RPG have only put up a fraction of the new improved scans from WotC's collection of WotC and TSR products. (Even that nearly knocked them offline.) At some point very very soon, the Birthright product range will go back on sale...

...but it will be PDF only...

...and if you know anything about DriveThru RPG, you will know that they started doing Print on Demand (PoD) in the last few years.

So there is a company that can do PoD that is not doing PoD. All it takes is one small change and we could have the original Birthright products back in print again! I think it is worth pushing for that. That is something that could help the Birthright fanbase. :D

[Vicente]

Well Arjan, I'm really thankful for the amazing job you have done for so many years for this community. It is really appreciated, and impressive that you have done it for so long.

So a toast to you, best webmaster we could have hoped for this amazing setting :)

[DarkApple]

I do hope this is only an "au revoir" not an "adieu"!

[Mirviriam]

Cheers all!

trust me i really have tried.. i got an endless email conversation with their lawyer and several brand managers trying to make my point and trying to let them see the value and even benefits for sustaining contact in combi with D&D next..

but they simply turned me down.. multiple times.

This really hurts my heart and feelings especially after what we have accomplished as a community after 12 years that i have to make a decision like this.. its like saying your last goodbye to your 12 year old kid....

i am afraid petitions would not help.. as it has never helped in the past.


I've personally met 5 of the people they send out on tours to the cons via my involvement with Convergence in Minneapolis. This doesn't surprise me one bit. They live in their own world, which dictates they are the greatest game designers in the history of mankind & they carry the hopes and dreams of everyone (never mind pokey mon out did them & still makes more money for M.B.).

The part that gets me, was that their people on tour answered every question at all 5 panels with "'Next', Will Fix It" ... regardless of if they were talking the customization of of individuals or the mechanics of encounters, magic item distribution, or the encounters per hour philosophy.

The last point that struck me, was that even though they clearly failed as a company - they still believe their niche of table top games prevents them from acknowledging trending or even that their game falls into the entertainment industry.

At the convention that is ran for all geeks (it is not a gaming convention), we still are scheduling them as a panel, but we were asked why we cut their room comps down to 2. Normally, we don't ask them to share - but with this year being the British Invasion, we'd rather have 9 ex-doctor who cast members than any extra people from that failing enterprise. I will say the guys from Paizo are pretty cool & the White Elephant in the room was that even the D&D people new Paizo was keeping D&D alive the past 15 years. The only decent person I met from the straight D&D people was the local fan boy who carried 3 of the 5 panels.

No surprise that the morons who brought us 4th Edition would come up thinking hundreds of people working for years would just be wasting their time instead of an incredibly valuable test market & research tool. I had held out hope in light of the Paizo thing the past 3 years for D&D ... I think it must rankle something fierce over at DND that they had to rely on Paizo for so long.

Wish you guys all well

[Rudzielec]

Hello.
This is my first post here, and I`d like to thank Arjan and all the fantastic people that made this place what it is now. I knew there was such thing as Birthright, like you know that there is such thing as Australia. You more or less know where it is, you know a few facts about it and thats it. But when you actually manage to get to Australia you see a whole new continent full of wonders. It was like this for me, I only recently stumbled on this site by an accident, and then i just couldnt speak with disbelief. Even now im lacking proper words to describe what wonderfull job you all did here. Let me just say this : Bigmac is right, there are people out there,that are destined to play Birthright. I consider myself one of them, I just finished the handbook you created and try to get a grasp on all the rules but I did fell in love with Birthright. So when I saw that post you wrote Arjan that you step down I just wanted to let you know that im grateful for what you and other people did here. I only hope you wont let some people that dont know what you did and how hard it was, to make you loose your fire. Id like you to know that there is a lot of people, myself included, that are happier because of what you did, and you should be proud of what you achieved. What you did here is so fantastic because you all did this by yourself, not wotc, but a community of enthusiastic people who just like this setting. So once again I wanted to thank you and everyone for creating this place I`ll try to contribute as much as I can as long as you can stand me. :)