Birthright Open world mmo

[Arjan]

Ever since the birthright gorgons alliance game i have been thinking about how cool if there were some updated (new) game for birthright.. even more an MMO where we all can enjoy our favorite setting.
imo the birthright setting is perfect for an mmo.. its history, the awnshegs, the domains.. well everything :)

lately i have been combining a lot of these ideas on "how would you implement this in an mmo" and i think i got the circle round!

what i love about the bioware games is the story telling. especially in SWTOR you have the feeling the wholes game is build around you personally and you are the most important person in the game.
- if i were to translate to "what would i do in a BR-mmo" is to have the 6 human origin stories that drag the player from aduria during the flight of the shadow to anuire, and ending with the big bang massive battle of mount deismaar.
By then the player should understand what is BR and who are the main characters and how they became who they are.
(you can skip the whole story if you like and go directly to Anuire, but you will stay unblooded ;)

when the story ends (or go directly) the mmo starts.
the usual questing and crafting, dungeon and raids to reach max level.

but what would be really birthright that other games dont have.. domains and holdings.

for that you have guilds. where guilds can construct things real time in the game, make cities grow like in the real world.
where characters professions help providing the necesary skills and materials to do so.
where guild can build up influence in an area (doing quests, donating stuff to nps whatever we come up with.. bribing system for npc or so) to actually create a holding.. or even destroy a holding(level)

build your own legacy.. create your own family with PC's and the more you play them the more you level up your family legacy opening more player perks (perhaps even attach the bloodline strenth to the legacy level)

further more, open world exploring and discovering (ancient) secrets of the world (other races, mysteries of the leylines) open world events, perhaps by accident end up in the shadowworld :)


so with these ideas i have been doing some research on how and with what game engine this would be posible to achieve.
things i have kept in mind is the cost ofcourse. (simply dont have a couple of mil to go to a game developer and ask them to do it...and what is the fun if you dont do it yourself? :)
So with the cost and accessibility there is really only 2 platforms to choose between which are the Unreal engine and Unity.
Both are cool engines and "quite easy" to work with, but i have chosen Unity to build in a prototype. (reason is i felt that unreal was leaning more towards a first person type of game)

so what do you guys think? any of you have any experience with these? willing to help out?

i am all ears

[AndrewTall]

I have no experience with it, but obviously wish you the best with it.

[Arjan]

I have no experience with it, but obviously wish you the best with it.
thnx andy, you might not have xp in computer programming, but you do in character building, lore, quests and fluf , which might even be more important than the programming itself :)

[Arius Vistoon]

hi,
you speak about 2 choices : unreal engine and unity.
For me, there are another choice (very good for MMO beacause it's already inside, nothing to do !!) it's Lumberyard (https://aws.amazon.com/fr/lumberyard/)

i already try it (not long time) for a similar project but in Virtual reality (with oculus rift headset) and it seems easy to take in hand.

yes i can help a little (my problem it's not enough time !!!)

[Arjan]

hi,
you speak about 2 choices : unreal engine and unity.
For me, there are another choice (very good for MMO beacause it's already inside, nothing to do !!) it's Lumberyard (https://aws.amazon.com/fr/lumberyard/)

i already try it (not long time) for a similar project but in Virtual reality (with oculus rift headset) and it seems easy to take in hand.

yes i can help a little (my problem it's not enough time !!!)

ah yes, lumeryard, its actually the cry engine bought by amazon. did read about it. ill take a more dept lookinto this.
can you share a bit more about your experience with lumberyard?

i chose between the two because of their wide acceptability and widely available courses, tutorial and assets where lumberjack is fairly new and takes some time to get people over from the other two

[Arius Vistoon]

ah yes, lumeryard, its actually the cry engine bought by amazon. did read about it. ill take a more dept lookinto this.
can you share a bit more about your experience with lumberyard?

i chose between the two because of their wide acceptability and widely available courses, tutorial and assets where lumberjack is fairly new and takes some time to get people over from the other two

my "experience" (very short) is :
i create an island (with a forest, a big river and a small town with 4 buildings and a light street). i put my headset for virtual reality and it's done !
i can create and test in VR in the same time.
I take all free asset from the website and there are a "game ready" too (i don't try).

what i know/feels :
there are less people know it (very less !!) ; the community is small
there are lot of tutorial and a few "ready to use" (unity and unreal, more unity in fact are of course lot of tuturial but lot of it's very old)
it's new code (yes the origin it's cry engine but amazone change more than half of the old code with new technology in mind (virtual reality)
the software it's free except if you use multiplayer of amazone (but you can create your own server if you want)
you can easy use cloud and all aws features
you can use twitch
the interface is nice

[Arjan]

So i have been doing some Udemy courses on Unity, and a few times i though i might have chosen the wrong engine over the Unreal engine.

But after learning that Hearthstone and Albion Online are made in Unity and the truth is that C# suits me better then C++ I have been actually happy with my choice.

But i have a question for you guys since there are quite some MMO(RPG) variants out there

There is the top down variant with a click to attack kind of system like Diablo, Path of Excile, Albion Online. And most of them are quite cartoony/sketchy in style

Then you have of course the warcraft, swtor, skyrim online etc where you move the character around yourself with keys/game-pad. this gives the user more the idea he is in control of the character instead of clickbashing.
The latter come around in various styles, the cartoony-realistic where the anatomy of the character is "human style", other come in cartoony fantasy style like warcraft and there is the close to realistic style like Skyrim online which gives awesome real looking views and landscapes and cities etc.

what type and style would you like to see for birthright?

[Arius Vistoon]

for some years, i don't playing with non-vr game, i don't like anymore flat game so i'm not the good player to answer. Now, i need move by myself in the game like i'm really in the game, not with some keyboard or gamepad. I need negociate, do diplomaty and some interaction by myself in game and so on (likethe game wolf within)

But, before, i like game like withcher 3 (ok, this one it's not MMO) and Guild wars style and the very old Neverwinternight (the number 1 not the 2...) for the free style of Dungeons master XP and alignement in the game.

For me, you can choose "low" graphic for beginning and change step by step the graphic like the game Subnautica.

[Rowan]

Would love to see something like this...but if you were thinking characters walking about in a built-out world, maybe something less ambitious, first?

Sounds like the project would be immensely art intensive and time intensive to build everything out for the world, much less the story, scenarios, equipment, detail, AI, etc.

What about starting with a map-based Turn Based Strategy game that focuses on that which makes Birthright unique -- the domain level play? Like Gorgon's Alliance without the adventuring or battlefield?

Total War and similar have created a massive barrier to entry in creating competitive battlefield combat. And the 1st or 3rd person RPG is a flooded market. Domain level play, truly strategy/diplomacy MMO based (not tactical, and not based on ages and unrealistic tech trees and such like Civ and Empire) is much more rare, and core to the Birthright concept.

I've wondered about building that for some time. I think you'd just need some good maps, and then build interactivity on the maps for getting into all the domain-level assets, tied of course to the database and rules engines, turn submissions sheets/action interfaces, and then resolution. And AI for NPCs.

That seems much more attainable to me than RPG and battlefield. Those could be future projects if the first is successful.

Heck, just having that map interface as the core of PBEMs would breathe new life into this community!

And seriously, really improving on Gorgon's Alliance (without the adventures or battlefields) and with the Editor and many options for tweaking rules, levels of complexity, etc., would be awesome.

I mean, you'd need something for military action resolution, but that may have to start with wargame-like blocks on a field, turn-based layout and action description. I'm sure lots of us would love to see Total War: Birthright (with perhaps easier to manage yet more realistic/simulationist wargaming), but that seems a lot to shoot for.

[Arjan]

Would love to see something like this...but if you were thinking characters walking about in a built-out world, maybe something less ambitious, first?

i think all type of games are ambitious and require a lot of dedication especially when its an indie game/fan based creation.
but that doesnt mean things can be done step wise.



Sounds like the project would be immensely art intensive and time intensive to build everything out for the world, much less the story, scenarios, equipment, detail, AI, etc.

sure, but that depends. my idea is to NOT (over) develop areas/domains/cities too much but leave for the players itself.
ie the timeline just after the battle of mount deismaar. just a few cities/major hubs exists and the rest are settlements.
they would have to explore the world gather/buy/trade the resources to build the actual cities/domains


What about starting with a map-based Turn Based Strategy game that focuses on that which makes Birthright unique -- the domain level play? Like Gorgon's Alliance without the adventuring or battlefield?

Total War and similar have created a massive barrier to entry in creating competitive battlefield combat. And the 1st or 3rd person RPG is a flooded market. Domain level play, truly strategy/diplomacy MMO based (not tactical, and not based on ages and unrealistic tech trees and such like Civ and Empire) is much more rare, and core to the Birthright concept.

I've wondered about building that for some time. I think you'd just need some good maps, and then build interactivity on the maps for getting into all the domain-level assets, tied of course to the database and rules engines, turn submissions sheets/action interfaces, and then resolution. And AI for NPCs.

sure, many of us have that same idea, i actually think a good strategy game is way more ambitious then an open world/survival game.
but that being said, and rts or turn based game is another type of game that also would be cool.
take a look at albion online that is actually an interesting game



That seems much more attainable to me than RPG and battlefield. Those could be future projects if the first is successful.

Heck, just having that map interface as the core of PBEMs would breathe new life into this community!

And seriously, really improving on Gorgon's Alliance (without the adventures or battlefields) and with the Editor and many options for tweaking rules, levels of complexity, etc., would be awesome.

with all the web techniques out there nowadays with the drag and drop it should be too hard to create that. and miviriam has everything ready in a SQL file (should be posted on the site somewhere too)

[Sorontar]

At the moment I am watching the really bad management of the development of Wild West Online, a game based on an engine with a really bad reputation (partially due to it previously making bad games which many view as scams) and being run by developers with no skill in project management and customer relations (or they are being good scammers). Please don't end up like them.

My advice is to think big but start small. By all means say that it will be a Birthright MMO but don't get hopes up too high too early. Make the only targets that you announce be ones that are simple. For instance, your first objectives might be:
* terrain design and player movement
* player interaction with environment
* sword combat with a default enemy

Then you might want to add character attributes and adapt the interactions/combat around them. Then you might do XP and tasks/challenges. Then you might want to expand the enemies, more environment work, add weapons, add classes, add spells, etc etc. If you have a small team (or just yourself), build it up as you go. Don't try to design everything at once.

If you release "pre-alpha" builds as you go, remember that it is you who is designing the game, not the players. Yes, you need to listen to them, but you are the one who is having the final say.

Best of luck,

Sorontar
player and server admin for Minecraft from Alpha version

[Arjan]

At the moment I am watching the really bad management of the development of Wild West Online, a game based on an engine with a really bad reputation (partially due to it previously making bad games which many view as scams) and being run by developers with no skill in project management and customer relations (or they are being good scammers). Please don't end up like them.

My advice is to think big but start small. By all means say that it will be a Birthright MMO but don't get hopes up too high too early. Make the only targets that you announce be ones that are simple. For instance, your first objectives might be:
* terrain design and player movement
* player interaction with environment
* sword combat with a default enemy

Then you might want to add character attributes and adapt the interactions/combat around them. Then you might do XP and tasks/challenges. Then you might want to expand the enemies, more environment work, add weapons, add classes, add spells, etc etc. If you have a small team (or just yourself), build it up as you go. Don't try to design everything at once.

If you release "pre-alpha" builds as you go, remember that it is you who is designing the game, not the players. Yes, you need to listen to them, but you are the one who is having the final say.

Best of luck,

Sorontar
player and server admin for Minecraft from Alpha version


I am thinking exactly like that. think big start small. I have quite a history in project management to know how easily things can go out of scope and before you know never finish. this happens in small but also in very large (governmental) projects.

As for game design its a good way to start with a GDD (game design document) to firstly describe what you want, and then make what you have described. this will also help you focus to stay in scope.

for those interested, i am doing the following Udemy courses
https://www.udemy.com/unitycourse/learn/v4/overview
https://www.udemy.com/unityrpg/learn/v4/overview

as for youtube these channels i am following:
https://www.youtube.com/user/Brackeys
https://www.youtube.com/user/SykooTV
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK55-_p9XtwbYgzxnljszlw

as for Unity, i am using the latest version 2017 pro

the youtubes above describe exactly the beginning list that sorontar points out.
the only things that is still a black spot for me is the networking part synchronizing things with servers to handle multiple players.
but like sorontor said, step by step :)

the blender thing is actually quite cool as well, there are a shitload of free motion capture files out there which you can use and stick to almost all kind of models.
that should make it a lot easier to create unique characters/monsters without the need of animating them

to be continues. keep your ideas coming

[Sorontar]

I am not familiar with the code side of Unity but try to keep in mind a few things from the start when you design:
* you are designing for multiplayer, but people might like to play single player
* there will be a server and a client, even if they may be (for single player) in the same software, so you need to work out what they tell each other
* if the language is object-oriented, make it flexible object-oriented. Have inheritance structures that make your job easy, e.g Rufus the Ready is an Anuirean which is a Human which is a Humanoid which is a Creature which is an Entity. Trying to add (multiple) classes and blooded attributes may not be so easy so I recommend you think carefully about this as the way you do it in code may not not be the same as you would do it for face-to-face game design.
* allowing for future modding by players is hard, so don't stress about it, but making the attributes of players and places have their own unified data structure will make it easier to turn them on and off in future designs

Sorontar

[Arjan]

cheers, unity uses C# for its script.
With my background of oo programming in various languages this isnt really the challenge. while most is just learning the Unity API.

As we speak i just discovered what looks like a really cool complete network/server solution for games https://www.gamesparks.com/
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/78351

and its completely free for developing, and when published as indie or student you pay 2c a month for every user above 100k.

from what i see its quite easy to implement and use but ill have to dive more into it to be sure. (still have some unanswered questions and how do i's)

think i have almost all the information gathered together to start setting everything. (the very very basic this is)
if i recall right in the second udemy class they talk about setting up basic classes and special abilities.

but soon if write up the basic GDD for the first step

[nickgreyden]

Any code I've learned since FORTRAN 77 has been on an "I need it" basis, but I have had some experience building really crappy (as well as buggy, incomplete, and often very crashy) games on Unity as it is a passing fancy I have every few months. I switched to it over Gamemaker because I hit a wall with Gamemaker. Most of my attempts have actually been the beginnings of a large scale turned-based rts that I one day hoped to turn into something like birthright.... until I saw and bought Mount and Blade: Warband which, frankly, did the job so much better than I thought I ever could.

Like I said, I can try to troubleshoot any code you might run into if you want to move on to something else by bashing my head into it. I'm free to write (a much more pervasive passion of mine) anything storywise you need. And I'm, of course, free to play test to see if it works/try to break it anytime you want.

My biggest limitation is time. It is amazing how little I seem to have :-( But feel free to hit me up anytime.

Edit: All of my creations have also been isometric or 2d. I'm not some hidden or humble programmer/creator gem... trust me.

[Arjan]

Here a little update on the progress.
Last week i got a licence for Atavism ( https://atavismonline.com/ )
Its quite a cool platform and very good support.
Have been playing with it for a couple of days, still a lot of work, but the core mmo server is there. now its only customize.

- Working on the controller right now to have a working moving and combat system the way i like it it. fast paced with the feel it is target less combat (but is soft targeting)

as for the art style is was thinking about this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NozlRTxMsq4

what do you guys think?

[JakobLiar]

I think its a good start at least.

I have a very smidge of experience working on games (by smidge I used to do some descriptive writing for old bulletin board games for their rooms and worked on a few races for a Science-Fiction version of Pathfinder pre-Starfinder or whatever it is called). If there is any room for creative writers, I would very much like to assist if you are willing.

[Arjan]

I think its a good start at least.

I have a very smidge of experience working on games (by smidge I used to do some descriptive writing for old bulletin board games for their rooms and worked on a few races for a Science-Fiction version of Pathfinder pre-Starfinder or whatever it is called). If there is any room for creative writers, I would very much like to assist if you are willing.

absolutely, this certainly isnt a one mans job.
When i got something more visual to show and to work with perhaps is an idea to create a separate forum for it and start forming a team and work on a more concrete plan.

If anyone else has a certain skill and would like to help out, le me know.

[DarkApple]

I hope you get to the end of it, Arjan. That's quite an endeavour.

In the meanwile I will keep an eye out for the odd PBEM :)

[Arjan]

I hope you get to the end of it, Arjan. That's quite an endeavour.

In the meanwile I will keep an eye out for the odd PBEM :)

think big start small :)
even if it turns out to nothing, you'll learn a huge amount of different things which i think is really fun!
The atavism community is very helpful as are the developers. so you dont have to figure things out yourself when you get stuck.
I believe too when i show you guys something, and you can actually login and play it, you will get the urge to explore the world... the rest of the help will come by that motivation.

[Sorontar]

Looks nice. Good luck with it.

[geeman]

Well, this looks impressive as all get out. I've been poking around with game engines lately for a project (or two... or six...) of my own, and Unity looks like the way to go to me as well. For straight up storytelling there's probably simpler systems (Renpy) but for a game you need more versatility.

Thanks for the links. I'm going to go through that stuff and try to get up to speed. Maybe I can contribute, though I can't make any predictions right now.

[JakobLiar]

I'm still keeping an eye out for this. Still very interested in helping.

[Arjan]

I'm still keeping an eye out for this. Still very interested in helping.

Sure, any help and input is welcome.
Atavism is about to release a new update which includes Auction house, enchanting/modding, armor sets and a whole bunch more.
So everything is ready to go (engine wise) "just" needs it implementation :)

At the moment while waiting for the new release i am exploring the world creation, ie the landmass, waters, foliage etc. as well as trying out to get a nice looking art-style.

My problem is that i want to do everything TOO perfect from the start, while it is probably better to prototype first with placeholders.

[Sorontar]

My other half is working on a game of their own and had to choose between Unity and Unreal. They found that Unity looked great but Unreal was easier to work with and had cheaper entity libraries, so they have gone for a more cartoon environment. Currently only working on the world. Waiting for our kid to get training and become a better game programmer than me. Might take a couple of years.

Sorontar, who is being serious about this.

[Arjan]

My other half is working on a game of their own and had to choose between Unity and Unreal. They found that Unity looked great but Unreal was easier to work with and had cheaper entity libraries, so they have gone for a more cartoon environment. Currently only working on the world. Waiting for our kid to get training and become a better game programmer than me. Might take a couple of years.

Sorontar, who is being serious about this.

Funny, those are the exact same reasons why i choose Unity.
While unreal has the blueprints you do need to know c++ if you need to program something. (which has a steeper learning curve)

Since i already "know" php, java, python and other similar scripting, C# was a more straight forward choice.

the assets/libraries are quite the same for both engines. most of the developers publish their assets on both stores.

That being said, since i wanted to make a MMO i needed a server side solution to handle everything like dmg control, player positions, guilds, building system etc.. I looked into quite some different solutions.
while unreal has a better network solution then unity i bumped into atavism www.atavismonline.com
That ready out of the box solution really fits my needs and is super scalable to 16 servers per world.
Their goal is to make a game ready framework where you just add your own stuff and it works out of the box.
So with this solution you can think more on creating the world instead of programming all the features first.
So for indy game devs and big dreamers like me its an amazing tool.
IT was bought last years by dragonsan studios and they are developing it like crazy. Its becoming a very mature solutions very fast.

So that leaves us to do only the fun stuff :)

[Sorontar]

Funny, those are the exact same reasons why i choose Unity.
While unreal has the blueprints you do need to know c++ if you need to program something. (which has a steeper learning curve)

Talked to my other half and I found was confused with why they chose Unreal. The major thing was that the programming development interface was easier to work with than that for Unity. Unreal also had more realistic entities than Unity, though at this stage they are not being used. The main objective is to make a horse-based game so they had to be able to get a suitable horse blueprint as well and they found one that works in both Unreal and Unity.

I am comfortable with all sorts of programming languages but haven't had to develop any (serious) games. However, my kid is about to start a two year course on game development on Unity so we are hoping they will learn the best way to approach that aspect.

I am glad you found atavism and that it seems to meet your needs. I have been a fussy computer scientist and tend to write a lot of things myself because libraries don't always meet my needs.

Sorontar

[Arjan]

I am comfortable with all sorts of programming languages but haven't had to develop any (serious) games. However, my kid is about to start a two year course on game development on Unity so we are hoping they will learn the best way to approach that aspect.

I am glad you found atavism and that it seems to meet your needs. I have been a fussy computer scientist and tend to write a lot of things myself because libraries don't always meet my needs.


Atavism is great out of the box, but certainly need some extra programming to fully fulfill the needs or ideas.
Right now for example the guild system is very basic. And for birthright that is one of the core ingredients. So that one definitely needs to get programmed and extended as well as other things like a deity system.

so if you are up for a challenge and want to help out, all help is welcome.

[Haeda]

Im fairly useless when it comes to game creation. However, if you need help with story writing, I'd be happy to help.