What Was Azrai's Home Plane?

[Thomas_Percy]

Where Azrai has live? What was his home plane of existence?
Pandemonium? Baator? Abyss? Carceri? Hades? Gehenna? Other?

What was Azrai's alignment? Chaotic? Neutral? Lawful?

What you need to kill a god? A weapon, a spell?
What monster (or class) is ultimate gods' assassin?

My next adventure will take place durning the battle at Deismaar and in a few months before.

[RaspK_FOG]

Birthright was one of those crystal spheres that was mostly removed from the pathways of the Multiverse; in particular, nothing could normally exit Aebrynnis/the Shadow World, not even the deific powers that live on it. Thus, Azrai dwelled on the Shadow World, while the rest on Aebrynis.

Azrai is a bit of an issue; some things suggest that he might have been CE, but NE is also a possibility. We are almost sure that he wasn't LE.

Azrai was so powerful that the rest of the gods blew themselves up in order to kill him.

[Thomas_Percy]

Birthright was one of those crystal spheres that was mostly removed from the pathways of the Multiverse; in particular, nothing could normally exit Aebrynnis/the Shadow World, not even the deific powers that live on it. Thus, Azrai dwelled on the Shadow World, while the rest on Aebrynis.
What is Aebrynnis? (me stupid)
How could Azrai live into Shadow World, if the Shadow World was created after Deismaar? (Am I wrong?)
Other gods (accordnig to Book of Priestcraft are living in outer planes).


Azrai was so powerful that the rest of the gods blew themselves up in order to kill him.
Sorry, my question was unslerar, but I asked about something reversed.
Azrai is the one who plots to kill Corellon Larethian* and Moradin durning battle at Deismaar. And I asked how can he do this?

* I inserted this god in my BIRTHRIGHT because there was a lot of players' complaining ("why my ranger has no spells?" etc.), I can't use a lot of good Corellon-related staff from eg. WotC, and I have seen any advantage of his absence.

[Fizz]

What is Aebrynnis? (me stupid)

Aebrynnis is the name of the planet on which Cerilia exists.


How could Azrai live into Shadow World, if the Shadow World was created after Deismaar? (Am I wrong?)
Other gods (accordnig to Book of Priestcraft are living in outer planes).

The Shadow World has always been, it was created at the same time as Cerilia. Get the free download Blood Spawn for a very detailed explanation of Cerilia's and the Shadow World's connection. You can find that at WotC's Old Editions download page.


Sorry, my question was unslerar, but I asked about something reversed.
Azrai is the one who plots to kill Corellon Larethian* and Moradin durning battle at Deismaar. And I asked how can he do this?

* I inserted this god in my BIRTHRIGHT because there was a lot of players' complaining ("why my ranger has no spells?" etc.), I can't use a lot of good Corellon-related staff from eg. WotC, and I have seen any advantage of his absence.

Well, rangers still have spells. You don't need Corellon to have ranger spells. Most people use the power-of-nature concept to explain why rangers have spells. The BRCS i believe has a section explaining the source of their magic. Regardless, no official Birthright material denies spells to rangers.

-Fizz

[Cmalik]

Besides, the elves in birthright do not have a god. It is a major reason the humans were able to drive them back; the elves lack of divine magic. Putting in an elf god takes away alot from the setting

[epicsoul]

Birthright was one of those crystal spheres that was mostly removed from the pathways of the Multiverse; in particular, nothing could normally exit Aebrynnis/the Shadow World, not even the deific powers that live on it. Thus, Azrai dwelled on the Shadow World, while the rest on Aebrynis.

Azrai is a bit of an issue; some things suggest that he might have been CE, but NE is also a possibility. We are almost sure that he wasn't LE.

Azrai was so powerful that the rest of the gods blew themselves up in order to kill him.

I would have to say that Azrai was NE - he wanted to rule everything, and was at least somewhat orderly, rather than simply destroying everything, which would have been a bit more chaotic.

And he wasn't organized enough for LE, as his forces and methods, while definitely well thought out, were not quite enough to be classified as Lawful.

[irdeggman]

I would have to say that Azrai was NE - he wanted to rule everything, and was at least somewhat orderly, rather than simply destroying everything, which would have been a bit more chaotic.

And he wasn't organized enough for LE, as his forces and methods, while definitely well thought out, were not quite enough to be classified as Lawful.

The Book of Regency talks about the pull of Azra and how it is towards chaos and evil. Due to this I would say Azrai was Chatoic Evil.


Characters with the blood of Azrai in their veins seem destined to become awnsheghlien. The blood tugs at them, tempting them to evil and chaotic acts.

And Bloodspawn when talking about Azrai's connection to the Shadow World has the following:



But one god delighted in the ever-changing world and refused to bind his will and his being to the land. That god became Lord of Shadow, the god of Chaos and Change. He became Azrai.

[epicsoul]

The Book of Regency talks about the pull of Azra and how it is towards chaos and evil. Due to this I would say Azrai was Chatoic Evil.



And Bloodspawn when talking about Azrai's connection to the Shadow World has the following:






... I stand corrected, Sir. :)

[kgauck]

Curious. My copy of the Book of Regency says the following:


Azrai was known to all as the Rainbow Prince and spread happiness and joy in his footsteps. He gave ponies to little girls and sailboats to little boys. He lived in a sugarplum castle with a chocolate moat. He gave the gift of song to mankind and was the patron of bards and mirth. He was despised by the Dark Lord of Mayhem, Andurias, and his minions of evil. Contemptuous of the special love the people of Cerilia had for Azrai, they ambushed him at Mt Diesmaar, where his sugarplum castle sat, and killed him. Ever since, the followers of the Pantheon Corupt made it their central purpose to distort the truth of Azrai the Gentle, and erect a tower of falsehoods about his name. No longer is a smile known as the expression of Azrai, for different ideas are today associated with his name.

Perhaps you have the post-Diesmaar edition?

[RaspK_FOG]

Funny, but jokes can be a bad thing on a board; ;).

Anyway, as I was saying, Azrai is shown to be CE, and irdeggman was kind enough to provide the text I didn't have the time to look for to give me some backing. I think the rest of the answers and issues have also been addressed; is that right?

[ploesch]

I didn't read everything, so maybe this has already been stated.

To the best of my Knowledge...

At one time the Aebyrinis (sp?) and the shadow world (Forget the original name) were one and the same. It was an emorphous world with no shape or permanence. (Think the Plane of Chaos from Michael Moorcocks books). Then the first beings were born of this Chaos, they were the original gods. They decided to exert their will on the place, and could stabilize it, but only so long as they concentrated on it. Eventually, the Gods created a stable realm by forcing the Chaos out and erecting a barrier betwen the two worlds (I forget what the barrier is called also). This created a Physical and spirit world. Fey creatures called the spirit world home, while the more physical creatures grew on Aebyrinis (sp?). Some creatures could travel between the two because of their nature.

When the cataclysm acured, or shortly thereafter, the spirit world became the shadow world, and the veil between the two seems to be weakening.

EDIT:
There is so much potential for fun in the shadow world. There are many theories, and because the shadow world is very similar in many ways to the plane of shadow, and because the Gods do make their homes there, exerting their will, you could even say that it is the plane of shadow from the standard cosmology's. Therefore the BRCS could be the dream of a dead god, or the first Material Plane, or any number of options, including being able to reach the other setting by using the shadowworld to travel there.

[irdeggman]

Curious. My copy of the Book of Regency says the following:



Perhaps you have the post-Diesmaar edition?

And he was also called "Papa Smurf":D

[irdeggman]

I didn't read everything, so maybe this has already been stated.

To the best of my Knowledge...

At one time the Aebyrinis (sp?) and the shadow world (Forget the original name) were one and the same. It was an emorphous world with no shape or permanence. (Think the Plane of Chaos from Michael Moorcocks books). Then the first beings were born of this Chaos, they were the original gods. They decided to exert their will on the place, and could satbilize it, but only so long as they concentrated on it. Eventually, the Gods created a stable realm by forcing the Chaos out and erecting a barrier betwen the two worlds (I forget what the barrier is called also). This created a Physical and spirit world. Fey creatures called the spirit world home, while the more physical creatures gre on Aebyrinis (sp?). Some creatures could travel between the two because of their nature.

When the cataclysm accured, or shortly thereafter, the spirit world became the shadow world, and the veil between the two seems to be weakening.

Check the text from Blood Spawn (that free download fro the WotC site). It has the text describing "When Two Worlds Were One". Basically the separation of Aebrynis and the Shadow World (no other name for the place that I've found) occurred before Desimaar - only after that the Shadow World became corrupted.

[ploesch]

Check the text from Blood Spawn (that free download fro the WotC site). It has the text describing "When Two Worlds Were One". Basically the separation of Aebrynis and the Shadow World (no other name for the place that I've found) occurred before Desimaar - only after that the Shadow World became corrupted.

I've read it, it's just been awhile.

[Thomas_Percy]

Atlas of Cerilia (page 9) says the Shadow World was discovered after Deismaar.
So, I don't understand?
It existed until this time un-discovered?
Azrai, Anduiras, Healyn have missed it, but some heroes of next generation found it?

[Thomas_Percy]

The Book of Regency (...) say Azrai was Chatoic Evil.
Do you think The Abyss is good home-plane for him?

[Fizz]

Atlas of Cerilia (page 9) says the Shadow World was discovered after Deismaar.
So, I don't understand?
It existed until this time un-discovered?
Azrai, Anduiras, Healyn have missed it, but some heroes of next generation found it?

The cataclycism at Deismaar tore down much of the boundary that separates the two worlds. It was not possible (or at least much more difficult) to travel from one to another before Deismaar. After Deismaar, it became much easier (not necessarily easy, but easiER).

-Fizz

[irdeggman]

The cataclycism at Deismaar tore down much of the boundary that separates the two worlds. It was not possible (or at least much more difficult) to travel from one to another before Deismaar. After Deismaar, it became much easier (not necessarily easy, but easiER).

-Fizz

Plus after Deismaar is when the halfling exodus started - when the Shadow World started to become corrupted.

[ploesch]

Atlas of Cerilia (page 9) says the Shadow World was discovered after Deismaar.
So, I don't understand?
It existed until this time un-discovered?
Azrai, Anduiras, Healyn have missed it, but some heroes of next generation found it?

Like I said, from other texts I've read the gods erected a barrier between the two worlds, and only certain cretures could travel between the two. After the cataclysm, the barrier was weakened.

[irdeggman]

Atlas of Cerilia (page 9) says the Shadow World was discovered after Deismaar.
So, I don't understand?
It existed until this time un-discovered?
Azrai, Anduiras, Healyn have missed it, but some heroes of next generation found it?

If that is the first contridiction in the 2nd ed material you've found - well you haven't read enough.:)

Blood Spawn was written after the Atlas and thus has more complete information, IMO.

If you go by the BR Rulebook and Atlas the impression is the the Rjurik don't ahve cites and yet in the the Rjuril Highlands expansion. . . .

[irdeggman]

Like I said, from other texts I've read the gods erected a barrier between the two worlds, and only certain cretures could travel between the two. After the cataclysm, the barrier was weakened.

What are these texts? I'd like to know if I've missed something.

[Thomas_Percy]

The cataclycism at Deismaar tore down much of the boundary that separates the two worlds. It was not possible (or at least much more difficult) to travel from one to another before Deismaar. After Deismaar, it became much easier (not necessarily easy, but easiER).-Fizz
Now, I understand. Thanks.
So it was possible for Azrai to made the Shadow World his home plane (maybe even he created it), because it was unknown, and unreachable for anyone else place, used by him for quick (plane shift) travel for his armies.

If that is the first contridiction in the 2nd ed material you've found - well you haven't read enough.:)
Blood Spawn was written after the Atlas and thus has more complete information, IMO..
Exactly, I don't read Brt books (with the exception of Brt 3,5) "published" after TSR collapse, because I don't trust them (lack of coordinator, publisher at the edge of bankrupcy broadly known from poor quality). Honestly, every Brt book (besides above mentioned Brt 3,5) has mistakes and inconsistencies, so I lightheartely alter any original material in my campaign.

Thanks for help, I appreciate it very much.

[RaspK_FOG]

OK, allow me to reiterate for your convenience:

There was once a time when the crystal sphere (read: universe) of "Birthright" amongst the world of the multiverse was made out of the raw stuff of everlasting chaos and constant change (that's the cosmological view, anyway).

At some point, the "planet" formed, and then the Seeming of what was to be the Shadow World and the material world that was to be Aebrynis were one and the same, combined in one, not quite malleable, not quite ever changing; it was at that point that the gods, originating from the world itself, quite a part of it, appeared on the land.

But the world was still changing, and with that their power and domain over the world. So, the 6 non-evil deities contributed to the stabilisation of the world, and, thus, their power. At that point, Aebrynis was formed, and the other side of the world became the Shadow World; Azrai, the Face of Evil, was fascinated as much as drawn to this raw force of chaos and started drawing his power from it. It is then that he recided within the Shadow World, and probably the reason he became more powerful than the other 6 deities - he was the only one who drew power from that source.

[Fizz]

If that is the first contridiction in the 2nd ed material you've found - well you haven't read enough.:)

Now i'm confused- what contradiction are you talking about?

-Fizz

[irdeggman]

Now i'm confused- what contradiction are you talking about?

-Fizz

Shadow World not being "discovered" until after Deismaar.

It existing long before that (per Blood Spawn).

Halflings have been present on Aebryinnis (sp) since before that and they could travel between the two.

Elves and the the Faeries are from the same source (the Sie).

The Lost were taken from Aebrynnis and placed in the Shadow World (well that is the implication in the story of how Azrai recruited them - again in Blood Spawn).

etc.

Now the "fact" that travel and the "crossover" was more common after Deismaar is a different issue and really not in any apparent contridiction.

[Fizz]

Shadow World not being "discovered" until after Deismaar.

It existing long before that (per Blood Spawn).

Halflings have been present on Aebryinnis (sp) since before that and they could travel between the two.

Elves and the the Faeries are from the same source (the Sie).

The Lost were taken from Aebrynnis and placed in the Shadow World (well that is the implication in the story of how Azrai recruited them - again in Blood Spawn).

etc.

Now the "fact" that travel and the "crossover" was more common after Deismaar is a different issue and really not in any apparent contridiction.


OK, i guess i didn't see this as a contradiction, i thought it was a matter of whether it was common knowledge or not.

The Shadow World was not `discovered', that is, not commonly known to exist nor even written in any arcane or history texts, until after Deismaar.

In other words, i never thought that it's `discovery' precluded it's existence beforehand.

Keep in mind that the Atlas is written `by' Calidhe Dosiere. It's an in-game explanation.

-Fizz

[Green Knight]

Exactly, I don't read Brt books (with the exception of Brt 3,5) "published" after TSR collapse, because I don't trust them (lack of coordinator, publisher at the edge of bankrupcy broadly known from poor quality). Honestly, every Brt book (besides above mentioned Brt 3,5) has mistakes and inconsistencies, so I lightheartely alter any original material in my campaign.

Interesting position. I must say, however, that if find such work as the Book of Regency far more trustworthy than a lot of the tings published BEFORE the collapse. Even the BR box and the Roesone Secrets have contradictions...and some of the Secrets books are just plain crap (not that they are not approved or whatnot, they are just plainly poorly designed, written and edited).

As for Blood Spawn in particular, it is certainly a bit odd in places. But is holds too much good stuff for BR to be ignored completely (such as interesting bits and pieces of cosmology).

[Green Knight]

I'd say that Azrai is clearly EVIL. I think there is no doubt about that.

As for Law-Chaos, there are strong indications that he was big on chaos, corruption and deceit. However, he also seemed quite keen on recruiting followers and making empires to worship him. Maybe overall a bit more Chaos than Law.

Overall I'd say his EVIL is so great that the Law-Chaos part is of less interest; so if I need one alignment I'd say NE.

[Green Knight]

I like putting Azrai in Hades. It sounds about right - bleak and hopeless - perfect for an evil god that wants to rule the world.

Carceri is also a good place for the Lost to have been imprissoned. Now some of them have wormed their way back to Cerilia by way of the Shadow World.

[irdeggman]

Keep in mind that the Atlas is written `by' Calidhe Dosiere. It's an in-game explanation.

-Fizz

And that I think is the best explanation for any apparent contradictions. The Atlas is merely "stories" told by an individual from a strongly human- Anuirean viewpoint.

[Green Knight]

Or poor editing. Sometimes its best to merely accept that the books were written by a lot of different peopel, and though they tried very had, there were some slips that really can't be explained away.

[irdeggman]

As for Blood Spawn in particular, it is certainly a bit odd in places. But is holds too much good stuff for BR to be ignored completely (such as interesting bits and pieces of cosmology).

That pretty much parrallels my opinion of hte book.

For the longest time I rejected it becaue it was too "weird".

Then I started looking at it with newer eyes (mostly due to the BRCS project) and started seeing things anew. There is an awful lot of really good points in there that if dismissed really detracts from the overall setting, IMO.

[Thomas_Percy]

:) You give me a spur to read this book. I will print and read it soon. :)

[Thomas_Percy]

The game session at the battle of Deismaar was OK, thanks for help.
If someone is interested in Shadow World additional ideas, there's a link to EnWorld topic:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=176130

[The Swordgaunt]

OK, allow me to reiterate for your convenience:

There was once a time when the crystal sphere (read: universe) of "Birthright" amongst the world of the multiverse was made out of the raw stuff of everlasting chaos and constant change (that's the cosmological view, anyway).


Just a clarification: Chrystal Sphere is an archaict term (from the AD&D-days) reffering to a solar system. In the Spelljammer(TM) Campaign Setting, all of the canon worlds had their own 'sphere (Realm Space, Grey Space, etc.), all on the Prime Material Plane. These were separated by the highly combustible Phlogiston, and by navigating its flow, spelljamming vessels could travel between the 'speres. Birthright (Aebrynis) and Dark Sun (Athas) were not considered accessible by spelljammers.

In my campaigns, I have used the death of the gods at Deismaar to explain why Aebrynis (Regent's Space) is closed. The massive outburst of energy caused by the voilent death of so many deities caused the Chrystal Sphere to seal shut. Sages have been debating why this only occured here, and not in any of the other 'spheres that have experienced similar cataclysmic events.

---

To offer my two copper bits to the Azrai alignment debate, I'd say he was Neutral Evil. IMO, this does not rule out his nack for Chaos. I see NE as the most calculating and devious of the alignments.

CE will revel in destruction and chaos, valuing strenght as the most important virtue.

LE will use order and system to further its goals, valuing obedience as the most important virtue.

NE will play on all strings to reach its goal, using chaos to weaken its enemies, and order to strenghten its grip on its minnions. The most important virtue is whatever fits the agenda.

This is how I see it, anyway.