Elves and their place in the World

[Green Knight]

There are many different interpretations of elves out there. I'd like to hear some of them.

Here is my version:
1. Elves are Fey, not Humanoid.
2. As fey, they have a special connection to nature/mebhaighl and are able to use true magic.
2a. They still have to be blooded to use battle/realm magic.
2b. Their fey nature makes them especially well suited to druidic magic, although they are not limited to it.
3. As fey, they are unable to worship gods/the gods are unable to be worshiped by them.
3a. They didn't worship Azrai, but were seduced by his words.
4. When they die, they just return to the elements.
4a. No afterlife. No ressurection or raise dead either.

[Lord Eldred]

Please forgive my ignorance but define "fey"

[Green Knight]

3E puts all creatures into categories. Humans, orcs, goblins, dwarves etc. are humanoids. Elves are fey (not really, just IMO). The various categories have some basic abilities.

What are fey? Creatures closely connected to nature and who have magical powers.

[Bryon]

I the Shadow World sourcebook, doesn't it talk something about elves and what they are in the Shadowworld?

I'll have to download it again...

[Riegan Swordwraith]

I would have to say they are not fey......fey are immortal,and really only exist on the Prime through portals and conduits to the Realm of Faeirie.If you were to truly make them fey,you would have to raise their ECL as a race.

Now if you get into mythology,there are actually only two types of fey,Seelie and Unseelie.But that is basically a factor of alignment,Unseelie tend to be evil.Overall the Fey are only one race.But in all mythology,Seelies tend to pattern themselves after humanity,albeit always in a warped sense.Fey have no feelings,no emotions.And they usually don't live on this plane.

I don't see elves to be like true Fey.

[Abbess Allessandra]

There are Norse gods of the fey. They are twins Frey and Freya. I am sure you have heard of them.

[Riegan Swordwraith]

Myself,I was going for the Celtic fey.

But wasn't Frey and Freya the Norse gods of fertlity for men and women respectiviley?????But the Norse did have elves,the alfar(there is one of those Norse double umlaut thingies somewhere in that I beleive).

[Green Knight]

The Sidhelien ARE immortal.

3E definition: A fey is a creature with supernatural abilities and connection to nature or to some other force or place. Fey are usually human-shaped. Unless noted otherwise, fey have low-loght vision.

Realm of the Faerie??? Sounds very "Manual of the Planes" to me. Neither does portals have a prominent place in Cerilia.

[Riegan Swordwraith]

But Fey also tend to have some pretty heavy resistances,and few drawbacks,one of which is cold-iron,and considering most people have no idea what cold-iron is,let alone how to use it,it really isn't a drawback.

Just because elves are "immortal" with low light vision is not enough to make them fey.Elves have too many emotions to be such.

Going by your definition,Rjurik can be said to be fey,for they have a deep connection to nature as well.

A lot of what I am going by is actual "real-world" mythology,which D&D isn't.However that doesn't mean that it sounds right to me...

[Green Knight]

:P

OK, I'm into DnD here. You are into "real-world" mythology. We're not even speaking the same language.

What I'm trying to do is make a distinction about between the sidhelien and the more mundane humanoids. To me, the 3E description "fey", works quite nice. The sidhelien are no less fey, than say, 3E dryads. I'm not at all suggesting that the sidhelien are very much like your celtic fey.

Your "argument" about the Rjurik was pretty lame ;)

[Riegan Swordwraith]

Yeah I know.....Been kinda sick lately *cough*

However something I thought of is that there must be a connection to TirNaNog in the Elven Forrests due to the way time works,it is the same way in the Land of Eternal Youth.

[Rcook12a]

I can understand your argument to make elves part of the Fey. I wouldn't use it in my campaign but it can make sense based on how the races of your world came to be there.
I like Tolkien's description and use of Elves better than anyone else's. I never liked the 5 foot weak Elf in D&D. If I remember correctly the elves in Middle Earth are immortal and were created by the same GOD (Illuvatar?) that created all the other Gods (Valor-Greator Gods). The Dwarves were created by one of the Valor and I believe Illuvatar also created the later arriving humans but for some reason I forget he made them mortal and weeker (no magic) than the Elves. Anyway the idea that the Elves were created by the same GOD that created the other Gods sits well with me as the reason that they do not worship any dietes. The Elves of Middle Earth may respect some of the Gods and may revere Illuvatar but they don't worship them the way that "lesser" races do.
The Elves of my world are like all of the other races that were created to be part of the Prime Material Plane except that for some unknown reason that has to do with how they originated they are immortal. If your a fantasy evolutionist I don't know what to tell you.
I use the standard stats from the Player's Handbook (except for height) just for game balance. The NPC Elves of my campaign are however quite powerful but few in number and for the most part uninterested in the affairs of lesser races.
I never liked the land of Faery and I don't like the Faery Shadow World that I think Ms Bebis authoried. I prefer a more pure evil modified Ravenloft.
Regards

[Lord Eldred]

Rcook12a-That is the best explanation of why elves wouldn't pray to gods. However what are you getting this information from? According to the Players Handbook on page 90, elves were created by Corellon Larethian who is their god and not the god who created all other gods. Now if you read this somewhere for Birthright specifically I can buy it better.

Green Knight-If you are using the 3E rules to define elves as fey, you can not then argue that fey can not worship gods since the 3E rules indicate elves do worship gods. Also it doesn't make sense that because they are not humanoid they can not worship a god. Why could they not worship their creator?

[Mithrandir]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Rcook12a-That is the best explanation of why elves wouldn't pray to gods. However what are you getting this information from? According to the Players Handbook on page 90, elves were created by Corellon Larethian who is their god and not the god who created all other gods. Now if you read this somewhere for Birthright specifically I can buy it better.



Lord Eldred, Rcook12a is getting his information froma J.R.R. Tolkien novel, The Silmarillion. I agree with you however that this is good explanation and you could probably come up with some being that acted as the elves creator, possibly Corellon or possibly not. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

[Lord Eldred]

I am really torn, if there is a very good explanation as to why the elves do not worship gods I could go for it. If elves really existed I would argue that there is one creator and thus elves would/should worship him/her. I think I am leaning toward the elves that have found religion either worship their creator or Erik. Some evil elves worship Belinik! I just don't see any reason why elves are above worshiping gods!

[blitzmacher]

The elves are not above worshipping gods, because some of them do. Remember that elves are immortal and lived a long time without needing the gods assistance. Then came the humans who with the help of their gods destroyed and scattered the elves. In this time Azrai came to the elves and made an alliance with them to destroy the humans. When the elves learned of Azrais true nature most of them left him.
After all is said the elves have a very bad taste in their mouths regarding the gods. Now, since the elves are immortal they will take a very long time to come around to worshipping any god, indeed some already have but with long lives come long memories and that is why the majority of elves do not worship gods.

[Mithrandir]

Just a thought, but perhaps the elves due worship gods in their own way. Erik grants power to his druids, perhaps elven druids draw power from sort of god or power in a simillar manner. Also, consider the fact that elves are immortal and quite powerfull in their own right, perhaps they just consider themselves closer to the gods and the forces of their creation. I think that since the elves of Cerilia are just humans with pointy ears as they are in more traditional DnD, but strange and powerful creatures, they must have a completly different world view. I also think that we have to remember that the elves were in Cerilia before any of the gods. The conclusion that I have drawn from this is that perhaps the elves were not created by the gods, but were, as suggested by Tolkein (and RCook12a) created by the power that created the gods themselves. Or perhaps they sprang from the force of life and creation itself. My point is that I feel the elves aren't aethisits who don't worship the gods, but that their religon is profoundly different from the human ones. Perhaps it's that they worship the spirit of life itself instead, or maybe they don't feel the gods are all that much greater then them, I don't know and I'm sure it needs to be explained in too great a detail for game purposes ( the elves like their secrets after all). What I can say is that since their attitudes and societies are so different from human ones, they probably don't lend themselves very well to conventional worship with priests and temples and prayer, but they probably still have gods or powers they respect or venerate in their own way, mysterious as it may be.

[Lord Eldred]

OK so if the elves were created from the entity that created the gods why wouldn't the elves worship it?

Big bang theory for Cerilia? Now that is funny :)

If they are not atheist then there is a chance for them to organize their religion and thus serve as clerics.

[Bryon]

In Forgotten Realms there is a Entity that created the gods and is more powerful than them. I think his name was Ao? I know he is talked about. He does not answer prayers and is way beyond the cares of common men. In fact I think there is a passage in the God Wars books (? Title) that Ao even answers to someone else more powerful than himself.

So the Elves could worship/revear a more powerful force/diety, but they do not see it as a god, just as a creator. I will also say that since this god does not answer any prayers or the like there is a large possibility that elves have started to worship certian gods in the quest for answers and power.

I do believe that some elves may have stayed loyal to Azari and continue the battle against humans and the other gods. Some elves may have found that Erik helps them in thier quest for peace in the forest, and maybe Laerme shows others that even humans have a bueaty about themselves that all can see and share.

[Mithrandir]

The elves simply have druids instead of clerics, perhaps because they organize their thoughts on theology differently. If the elves worship some sort of powerfull creator entity, they do it without an organized religon or clerics. This isn't because they can't, it's simply because they don't choose to. Following the above example, let's suppose this entity granted to the elves great inate power on their creation, and so they feel no need to call on him to grant them more. I think this makes sense because this being created the gods in a simillar manner, and they presumably don't have to pray for their powers. Also, only those who have the blood of the gods or the elves can use true magic, suggesting this power is rooted in the same source. Look to at elven druids, who gain their druidic spells without praying to Erik. Surely this power must come from some source, and if this all powerfull creator is a being deeply connected with the forces of life and creation, don't druid spells make more sense? So in conclusion, an elve can worship gods or even becom a cleric, but they tend not to. Most elves just continue venerate the being that created them, through the druids rather then through an organized religon, and maintain a connection to this being not through prayer, but through a mystical connection with the forces of life itself.

[Lord Eldred]

Your explanation sounds like an organized form of religion. Their entire existence pays respect to their creator and their creator gives them powers. Their creator favors druids by not making them pray for spells, yet they elven druids still pay homage to the land and in doing so "pray" to thier creator.

In the end I think Mithrandir, we are not disagreeing. I think it is rare for an elf to worship a human god. I also think that the religion of the elves would be different than a religion of humans.

All I am saying is that I didn't get why Birthright rules said elves have no gods.

[Mithrandir]

And all I'm saying is maybe they do!:)

[Lord Eldred]

Thanks for agreeing!!!!

[Chaos Lord Arioch]

When it comes to the Sidhe I am inclined to think they came from a different "plane of existance". That they opened a "portal" to Cerilia were curious and migrated to Cerilia for the mebhaighl. They maintained bonds between their plane and Cerilia by constructing "Fairie forts" (I suspect they are similar to ley lines) throught Cerilia. The Sidhe ruled their Cerilian lands for a couple thousand years in peace.
When the humans came and warred with the Sidhe the Sidhe were initally volatile to the invasion and once they started to loose they simply withdrew to their own plane and felt no great loss. Some Sidhe of course were still hostile and wanted to remain of Cerilia. Then came Azari, Desimar, etc.
Because the Sidhe come from a different plane their creation beliefs are different and have no power on Cerilia.
The Sidhe's home plane also has dryads, Sprites, Pixies, satyrs and will-o-wisps and other magical forest creatures who also make journies to Cerilia. This explains stories of humans coming upon a dryad parties, joining in and disappearing because they've been wisked away to the Sidhe plane.
My version of the Sidhe would have emotions. What makes them scary is their chaotic nature. if they find a wounded forester they may kill him, help him or let "nature" deal with him (that is leave him and let him rot).
the houses of the Sidhe are in their home plane and expains why their cities do not interfere with Medhaighl.
Actually I should put this in some sort of personal sorcebook format. Trying to expain my views would take a long time.
But my point:
Sidhe are different from humans, in thought and religion and these differences should be expained better so that when one runs a Sidhe domain they don't run it as a human.

[Lord Eldred]

I have never argued that the Elves should have the same sort of religion as humans but that they have religion. Even if they come from another plane of existence they would still have a creator that they could worship unless you are arguing that they developed through the big bang theory ;)

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

I have never argued that the Elves should have the same sort of religion as humans but that they have religion. Even if they come from another plane of existence they would still have a creator that they could worship unless you are arguing that they developed through the big bang theory ;)

You mean like an orgy?

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Personally, I don't think Elves should exist at all. Just look at them, with there pointy ears and stupid language. I just don't see it.

Now orgies, their existence is justified.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Their entire existence pays respect to their creator and their creator gives them powers. Their creator favors druids by not making them pray for spells, yet they elven druids still pay homage to the land and in doing so "pray" to thier creator.


Who is the creator of elves?

[Chaos Lord Arioch]

Perhaps they simply have a view of creation, that they were created out of the elements by the elements and as such worship no specific god.
No priests, no druids. Just sorcerors and herbalists. I would imagine that they would use their magic to enhance the healing properties of certain herbs (this is how they would heal the injured as opposed to casting cure light wounds spells).

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Chaos Lord Arioch

Perhaps they simply have a view of creation, that they were created out of the elements by the elements and as such worship no specific god.

So no big bang, but a big glob elements that spontaneously spawns into life???

[Chaos Lord Arioch]

I was refering to Chioran's version of the "big bang" but spontaneous spawning sounds good ;) Of course the Sidhelien wouldn't define it as the big bang theory.
They would probably describe it as "the beginning of the world, the elements combined out of nothingness, created the world and the sidhelien, etc, etc"

[Riegan Swordwraith]

How about the Sidhelein were travellers from the Realm of Faerie.....no muss,no fuss......

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver


Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Their entire existence pays respect to their creator and their creator gives them powers. Their creator favors druids by not making them pray for spells, yet they elven druids still pay homage to the land and in doing so "pray" to thier creator.


Who is the creator of elves?

I know I have posted this somewhere else but it is Corellon Larethian.

In your world it would most likely be God? Genesis I:20-25

"Then God said, "Let the waters abound with life, and above the earth let winged creatures fly below the firmament of the heavens." And so it was. God created the great sea monsters, all kinds of living, swimming creatures with which the waters abound and all kinds of winged birds. God saw that it was good, and God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the waters of the seas; and let the birds multiply on the earth." And there was evening and morning, the fifth day.

God said, "Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living creatures: cattle, crawling creatures and wild animals." And so it was. God made all kinds of wild beasts, every kind of cattle, and every kind of creature crawling on the ground. And God saw it was good."

Who else would have made the elves in your campaign? Didn't god create everything?

[centAUr]

I think that the version of the dwarven cosmology(posted by Kenneth Gauck) about the creation of the elves in Cerilia is quite good.
The elves are children of the Magic and Chaos and quite equal to the first powers. Thus they don't need to worsip, are immortal and immune to sickness etc. etc.
In short words the Cerilian Elves are of the same staff the powers are, as children of Chaos and Magic and are not created by them :).

[Lord Eldred]

Larian Songsine, Priest of Corellon Larethian describes the beginning as this:
"From the primordial turmoil at the center of the universe sprang the gods full-fledged, full-formed. Each claimed jurisdiction over certain effects, all being equally endowed with the power and force of the cosmos. They cooperated for the first (and the last) time to create the worlds. But some gods used their powers more wisely than their brethren.

An early alliance formed among these wiser gods. They knew how to manipulate their power. This gathering of gods, who called themselves the Seldarine (or the Brothers and Sisters of the Wood), imparted their very essence into creating certain aspects of the worlds.

While other gods squabbled over jurisdiction and possession of this virtue and that attribute, the Seldarine modified some of the lands, making their worlds lush and green and beautiful. In addition, they created vessels that would one day hold the spirit of the first sentient life to set foot upon these worlds-the race of beings known as the Elves. They crafted these vessels with thought and care, and gave them extraordinary beauty. The other gods grew black with jealousy, and they thirsted to imitate the Seldarine.

These gods hastily fashioned their own vessels, vying against those created by the Seldarine. But they would not invest the time vital to creating a race, and so their results were flawed-the gods did not care. Their creations were nothing like those shaped by the Seldarine. Most were Monsters, creatures that would one day haunt the dreams of Elves. Of all the crude creations, only the vessel reserved for Man held a glimmer of potential, for they would one day have the ability to change the land as would the Elves.

The gods of new races tried too hastily to reproduce a feat that had taken the wiser gods eons. But neither group's constructs would not come to life until the historic meeting between Corellon Larethian and Gruumsh, leader of the Anti-Seldarine."

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
In your world it would most likely be God? Genesis I:20-25

"Then God said, "Let the waters abound with life, and above the earth let winged creatures fly below the firmament of the heavens." And so it was. God created the great sea monsters, all kinds of living, swimming creatures with which the waters abound and all kinds of winged birds. God saw that it was good, and God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful, multiply, and fill the waters of the seas; and let the birds multiply on the earth." And there was evening and morning, the fifth day.

God said, "Let the earth bring forth all kinds of living creatures: cattle, crawling creatures and wild animals." And so it was. God made all kinds of wild beasts, every kind of cattle, and every kind of creature crawling on the ground. And God saw it was good."

Who else would have made the elves in your campaign? Didn't god create everything?



Actually the demi-human races posed a bit of a problem in the creation account of the Bible. Since they are non-existant they aren't subtly ignored :P

To compensate I use the following:

The history of elves is different based on two points of view. From the elven point of view, they were created by a divine being who saw the beauty of the earth in its creation, and created beings to ensure that it’s beauty was preserved. They were created from the four basic elements of fire, earth, water and air. The elves were created from the substances of the earth to protect the earth.

From the human perspective, elves were created by Azrai/Satan in an alternate form (2 Cor. 11:14 “But I am not surprised! Even Azrai/Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light.”). When Azrai/Satan was cast out of heaven and fell to earth he saw the great wonder of Gods creation and his perfect creation--man. Though he succeeded in tempting man to eat the forbidden fruit he did not succeed in destroying mankind. At some point in time (unknown in written history) Azrai/Satan who could not create “life” (beings with souls) created elves from the elements of fire, earth, water, and air. He constantly subjected these “beings” to subtle propaganda and lies to grow with in them hatred and prejudice against humans that would develop into war. Most humans view elves as “demonic” in nature, ironically elves view humans in much the same way.

There are a few “good” elves that have managed to somehow overcome their heritage of hate. Fhileraene, the Prince of Tuarhievel is one of the few. He has done much to convince many of his subjects, though he has slowly brought the realm to the brink of civil war on the issue. Most are hated by their fellow elves and are viewed as ultimate traitors who should be punished with death.

[Lord Eldred]

Lawgiver which viewpoint is true?

If they were created from a divine being (god) and they believe that, couldn't they worship that divine being and thus be clerics?

If they were created by Azrai but don't believe, couldn't it be possible that they have religion worshiping a divine being that does not exist? It would mean they couldn't be clerics with true powers granted by a divine being.

If they believe that Azrai is the divine being then they could worship Azrai and be clerics with granted powers.


P.S. If elves did exist then that passage of the bible would apply and god created elves.

[Eric McLuen]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Lawgiver which viewpoint is true?

If they were created from a divine being (god) and they believe that, couldn't they worship that divine being and thus be clerics?

If they were created by Azrai but don't believe, couldn't it be possible that they have religion worshiping a divine being that does not exist? It would mean they couldn't be clerics with true powers granted by a divine being.

If they believe that Azrai is the divine being then they could worship Azrai and be clerics with granted powers.



Both cases could be true. Consider the early Christian gnostics. It is true that they believed they were created with the divine spark or soul, in essence a fragment of God (big G). However the creator of the earth (the god of the Old Testament) was actually evil and was the cause of all suffering. Only by cutting through all the corruption of the earthly world could the divine spark be freed to return to God. With this viewpoint the gods of the humans are actually evil in that they are tied to the phisical world (as evident by their domains) and try to keep us trapped here preventing the soul from passing beyond. Therefore an elf would not worship an earthly god for that would only be reinforcing the corruption of the flesh. The true God would be beyond earthly worship and could not be explained, only experienced when true gnosis (knowledge) was achieved.

This may be getting a bit too theological for a generally pagan FRP but I find Lawgiver's arguments from an apparent devout Christian point of view very intriguing.

[Lord Eldred]

Thanks Eric but I was asking Lawgiver :)

[Eric McLuen]

Pardon my kibitzing.

[Lord Eldred]

No problem. I didn't mean to be rude and I do respect your opinion but I would still like to hear Lawgivers take on it.

[Eric McLuen]

No offense taken. I haven't noticed any posts recently so I hope he is ok and has not been scared off. I am also curious regarding his website name 'fan of enoch'. He is a really minor character in Genesis and yet has a major role in Jewish mysticism.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
Lawgiver which viewpoint is true?

If they were created from a divine being (god) and they believe that, couldn't they worship that divine being and thus be clerics?

If they were created by Azrai but don't believe, couldn't it be possible that they have religion worshiping a divine being that does not exist? It would mean they couldn't be clerics with true powers granted by a divine being.

If they believe that Azrai is the divine being then they could worship Azrai and be clerics with granted powers.


As Eric said both are true in their own way. In the words of Kenobi, “ a great many things depend on your point of view”. However, to answer the spirit of the question, elves were created by Azrai from the elements of the earth. While elves are immortal in body, they are in fact mortal in spirit. Humans on the other hand are mortal in the flesh, but immortal in spirit. It’s actually quite a fascinating arrangement.
With regards to the quandaries on whether elves could draw power from Azrai or other “gods”, the answer is mixed. For most campaigns, elves or any race for that matter can draw power from any divine source they worship, provided the divine source has power to give. For my campaign, there are basically only two “primary” sources of power God or Azrai (Satan). For various pagan gods and divine beings that other religions worship power does exist, sort of… (don’t you love the definitive answers!). Ultimately, the “false religions” either draw power from their own authority/self belief or demonic sources. The majority of the time worshippers/followers of “false religions” draw power from demonic sources even though they may not realize its source. Demons, the minions of Azrai/Satan, have the power to conceal their true identity and can influence people by presenting themselves as “good” to initially draw followers. These demonic forces can in fact provide elves/humans with supernatural powers. These powers may even be used to "do good" to a limited extent. Since being "good" and doing good works are not the key to get to heaven, it is a subtle and effective trap. They entice people into to doing good and living lives that may fit the moral code of a religion. Overall the believers are “good people”, but they aren’t going to heaven. Thus the side following Azrai has one another small victory. A bit of campaign world history/background may be in order:
Azrai was once one of the chief angels in God’s kingdom and was booted out for attempting to exalt himself above God and take his place on the throne. God kicked Azrai out of heaven and cast him to earth. On earth Azrai still had time to humble himself and return to God. However, Azrai’s pride is to great and God’s judgment and victory has fueled his hatred. Azrai knows that he is no match for God and so rather than “hurt” God directly he has channeled his hatred toward God’s most precious creation—man. Azrai wants nothing more than to kill, destroy, or condemn as many men as he can before God’s final judgment. To aid him in this purpose Azrai created elves and subjected him to his “teaching and guidance” and imbued in them a hatred and prejudice to the point of violence toward humans.


Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
P.S. If elves did exist then that passage of the bible would apply and god created elves.
Indeed if elves did exist God would have most likely created them on the sixth day with man.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
No offense taken. I haven't noticed any posts recently so I hope he is ok and has not been scared off. I am also curious regarding his website name 'fan of enoch'. He is a really minor character in Genesis and yet has a major role in Jewish mysticism.

No luck in scaring me off, and thankfullly I'm in good health. Unfortunately , I have been extremely busy. My wife is 7 months pregnant and on the verge of being placed on bed rest so I have plenty of housework to do at home, secondly we are planning on moving at the end of the month and I have been busy packing and taking care of other details. Additionally, I have been working overtime at work. With the chaos I rarely get any free time till after 10:00 p.m. and lately I've been to exhausted to be of much use... Anyway, back to the matter at hand!

I'm impressed that you even knew who Enoch is. Most people haven't a clue. I am a Christian and do refer to Enoch in the context presented in the Bible, not the Jewish mysticism. Enoch happens to be my favorite character in the Bible, though little is known about him. Let me explain:


Genesis 5:18-24
18 When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch. 19 And after he became the father of Enoch, Jared lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 20 Altogether, Jared lived 962 years, and then he died. 21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

At first it may seem that the passage "he was no more, because God took him away" would imply that Enoch "died". However, through the genealogy presented in this section of Hebrews it lists the age of an individual at the time of their death. An age at death is not given for Enoch, he simply "walks with God". To solve the mystery you must skip from Genesis to Hebrews to know the truth.

Hebrews 11:5-6
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Enoch had such a close relationship with God that God allowed Enoch to be taken from earth to live with Him in heaven. Enoch did not have to experience death. His relationship and fellowship with God is absolutely amazing to me. It blows my mind that a person could be so close to God that God would simply let them into heaven while they are still in t he prime of life (average age was 800-900 at the time and Enoch left with God at 365).

[Lord Eldred]

SO Lawgiver, if I am understanding you right elves can be clerics of Azrai but not God?

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
SO Lawgiver, if I am understanding you right elves can be clerics of Azrai but not God?

Yes.

[Eric McLuen]

Am I right to assume that your elves cannot cast spells imbued by God because they are created by Evil and are therefore evil by nature? Could they not somehow get a change of heart and be converted and saved? Perhaps a saviour of some type?;)

I found the dissertation about the nature of the 'pagan' gods in your world very reminiscent of the explanations given by the early church fathers - are the pagan gods actually demons bent on corruption or are they merely non-existent mirrors of our own corrupt psyche. By your explanation, both are true and elves are damned either way. I am curious though - you mention that even if a person lived a righteous life but worshipped an alternate god, he is still condemned by not following God proper. Was I misreading an earlier post?

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
Am I right to assume that your elves cannot cast spells imbued by God because they are created by Evil and are therefore evil by nature? Could they not somehow get a change of heart and be converted and saved? Perhaps a saviour of some type?;)

Despite the discontent of all the elf lovers they currently have no hope in my campaign. Its not ''their fault'' they were created that way. But another weird item that isn't known to humans (or my players... until now...man what a spoiler!) is that elves cannot procreate at all. Azrai created a finite number of them. When they are slain they cease to exist. They were not created with souls and thus cannot be ''saved''.


Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
I am curious though - you mention that even if a person lived a righteous life but worshipped an alternate god, he is still condemned by not following God proper. Was I misreading an earlier post?
Nope. I hate to break it to you but based on the Word of God there's only one way to heaven.

WARNING: IF YOU HATE CHRISTIANITY AND/OR DO NOT WANT TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR WHAT I'M ABOUT TO SAY DO NOT READ THE REST OF THIS POST. Ok, but you've been warned...

Romans 5:12-21
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22
21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from me there is no savior.

Hosea 13:4
But I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt. You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me.

John 8:24
I [Jesus] told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, ''I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ''

John 10:1-9
1 I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3 The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a strangers voice." 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.
7 Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. ''

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else (Jesus), for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved

1 John 2:22-23
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.


1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.


If your not right with God, but are a simply a ''good person'', that isn't enough. There is but one way into heaven. To accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

John 3:14-18
14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

[Eric McLuen]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver
Nope. I hate to break it to you but based on the Word of God there's only one way to heaven.

If your not right with God, but are a simply a ''good person'', that isn't enough. There is but one way into heaven. To accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.



First off, I am quite impressed if you did all that by memory.

However, I have to strongly disagree with you on the above statements. You have just discounted a lot of third country people who haven't been descended upon by missionaries, small children and the entire cast of the Old Testament. I find it quite arrogant to condemn people to eternal damnation due to their place of birth and other such circumstances beyond his or her control. There are way too many inconsistencies in the Bible itself as well as how it has been interpreted for me to leap to that conclusion. Don't get me wrong, I find the Bible a fascinating book. These inconsistencies and even contradictions add to its meaning rather than take away from it. Discussion about the different accounts of the same events or why certain events made it in certain gospels and what didn't offers a much deeper understanding of the time and the people who live in it. (Don't get me started on what is to be taken literally or metaphorically).

I think it would be fun to debate such things. However this is not the forum for such things. I feel I should apologize for egging you on to this point about something you obviously feel very strongly about. I do look forward to your posts as I find your world setting very interesting and your ability to add a new perspective on things.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
First off, I am quite impressed if you did all that by memory.

I must confess I only knew a little over half of them. I looked the rest up. There are others of course, but I figured I already overkilled the point. :)


Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
I think it would be fun to debate such things. However this is not the forum for such things. I feel I should apologize for egging you on to this point about something you obviously feel very strongly about. I do look forward to your posts as I find your world setting very interesting and your ability to add a new perspective on things.

Since I'm sure that I have already offended some and the core of this issue is not relevant to Birthirght we should in fact take our discussion elsewhere.
I have recently added a new discussion board (hosted by www.Bravenet.com) to my website fan_of_enoch.tripod.com (http://fan_of_enoch.tripod.com). Its not top quality like Arjan's, but it works! The link to the discussion board is on the left center/bottom section of the main page. We can use this section if you are willing or if you have another forum in mind.


Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
There are way too many inconsistencies in the Bible itself as well as how it has been interpreted for me to leap to that conclusion.


If we do continue this discussion I would prefer that you provide specific examples of "inconsistencies" rather than a generalized statement of disregard.

[Lord Eldred]

I am wondering why an elf in your campaign could not just accept Jesus as the Savior and start doing good for the world and thus be saved.

[Eric McLuen]

I recently posted to Lawgivers site for those interested. A pox upon all pop ups.
If my readings of Lawgiver are correct, elves were essentially created by Satan. As such they are created evil and without free will (essentially the reason for evil in the world). Therefore they cannot choose to be saved.
Am I warm?

[blitzmacher]

I think that would depend on whether or not god created satan in lawgivers' campaign. If god created satan, and satan created elves, then isn't god the real creater of elves.

[Chioran]

That argument could definitely be made blitzmacher. Let us not forget that satan wasn't always evil either.

[Eric McLuen]

Orginally posted by blitzmacher

I think that would depend on whether or not god created satan in lawgivers' campaign. If god created satan, and satan created elves, then isn't god the real creater of elves.

It boils down to the predestination vs. free will and why do good things happen to good people argument. While it is true that god would be omniscient and omnipotent, being able to do all things doesn't mean being responsible for all things. That is where free will enters the picture. True, knowing that eventual evil would result of your actions might be construed that the act itself is therefore evil, it is the fact that it is not that a lot of western theology is based. From another standpoint, god is neither good nor evil, love nor hate. Equating god as such limits him/her/it for what is good without evil or hate without love? Each needs the other to exist. What is light without the dark? Buddhists have an interesting answer to this dependent co-arising. Example - since light cannot exist without the dark, neither can be the true Reality.

[Chioran]

Eric, did you mean "why do bad things happen to good people"?

With regard to God's position on humanity I have long felt that God usually gives us enough rope to hang our selves with (and then some). It's up to us to hang ourselves or do as God would have us do.

As far as the Buddhist thing goes, is it just me or do Buddhists talk a lot without answering much. It seems that they have identified many things which are not, but few things which are. If neither light nor dark can be the true reality, then what about not light & not dark.

There once was a college professor who taught a class on philosophy and for his final exam one year he did the following. He placed his chair upon his desk and handed out the exam. There was one question on it: "Using everything we have learned throughout this semester make an argument for why this chair does not exist."

The majority of the students worked for 4 hours trying to come up with a valid explanation. While one student was done in a matter of 3 to 5 minutes. When grades were posted a couple weeks later the student who spent mere minutes on the final was the only one who had received an A. Next to the grades was posted his answer, which read: "What chair?"

[Chioran]

Landed Regent?! WooHoo!

I have arrived! :)

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Eric McLuen

I recently posted to Lawgivers site for those interested. A pox upon all pop ups.
If my readings of Lawgiver are correct, elves were essentially created by Satan. As such they are created evil and without free will (essentially the reason for evil in the world). Therefore they cannot choose to be saved.
Am I warm?

Forgive my delayed response on my forum. Things have only recently begun to settle down to managable levels.

As far as the free will of elves. The campagin has yet to truly come into a philosophical debate on the "soul" of elves. However, they are largely instinctive rather than free willed. They have free will, but it is limited if that makes sense. They are very carnally minded. So that even though they have a version free will, their internal desires and "programming" is warped to the point where self gratification and hatred of humanity overrides the rational thinking necessary to exercise their will.

As far as the existence of souls in elves. They do not technically have one. They are beings created by Azrai. Azrai does not have the "gift of life". He brought the elven race into existence, but he cannot given them the soul required to give them eternal life. Ironically however, they are created from similar fabric as man (the dust of the earth..., but also the wind, water, and fire), but they lack the key difference from man, the breath of Life from God. ( Genesis 2:7 ''the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. '')

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Eric McLuen
Buddhists have an interesting answer to this dependent co-arising. Example - since light cannot exist without the dark, neither can be the true Reality.

Why would the requirement of coexistence of two items disbar the reality of existence of one or either?

[Green Knight]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver


Orginally posted by Eric McLuen

I recently posted to Lawgivers site for those interested. A pox upon all pop ups.
If my readings of Lawgiver are correct, elves were essentially created by Satan. As such they are created evil and without free will (essentially the reason for evil in the world). Therefore they cannot choose to be saved.
Am I warm?

Forgive my delayed response on my forum. Things have only recently begun to settle down to managable levels.

As far as the free will of elves. The campagin has yet to truly come into a philosophical debate on the "soul" of elves. However, they are largely instinctive rather than free willed. They have free will, but it is limited if that makes sense. They are very carnally minded. So that even though they have a version free will, their internal desires and "programming" is warped to the point where self gratification and hatred of humanity overrides the rational thinking necessary to exercise their will.

As far as the existence of souls in elves. They do not technically have one. They are beings created by Azrai. Azrai does not have the "gift of life". He brought the elven race into existence, but he cannot given them the soul required to give them eternal life. Ironically however, they are created from similar fabric as man (the dust of the earth..., but also the wind, water, and fire), but they lack the key difference from man, the breath of Life from God. ( Genesis 2:7 ''the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. '')


In your campaign, Azrai created the Sie at the dawn of time, before the split of the Daylight/Shadow world?
Very interesting idea, since the Blood Spawn book implies that he might have been responsible for several races.
I'm just curious: What is you take on humans, orogs, goblins etc.?

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Green Knight
In your campaign, Azrai created the Sie at the dawn of time, before the split of the Daylight/Shadow world?
Very interesting idea, since the Blood Spawn book implies that he might have been responsible for several races.
I'm just curious: What is you take on humans, orogs, goblins etc.?


I've got a highly summarized version on my website. Check the section under
"MY Birthright Campaign" --> "The Races and Monsters"