Cerilian gods

[Jim Cooper]

JulesMrshn@aol.com wrote:
> No way!<

Yes way!

> Moradin is a cheif God of an entire dwarf pantheon. He is a
> battle/creator god, like Haelyn, but is also a Forge God like the Greeks Hephestus. And Kartathok is a Greater God who is also head of an entire pantheon, Belinik is an intermediate pudknocker god.<

True enough, but not IMC.

> These 2 are old gods, ones that did not have their essence divided, therefore are very powerfull, barely rivaled by the patron gods, Erik, Haelyn, and Avani.<

Just like you are using dragons to grant priest spells, I too have
changed BR to suit my gaming group. Whereas you are using more and
varied deity entities, I am using less. But only because I want to
focus the game to make to an even more humanocentric pantheon. IMC,
humans are the dominant force, and I'm trying to reflect that.

Cheers,
Darren

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

In a message dated 2/21/99 2:18:49 PM Central Standard Time,
Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca writes:

[Jim Cooper]

JulesMrshn@aol.com wrote:
> Understood, but Goblins are all over the world not just in Cerilia (maybe dwarves are too at least they are IMC). Giving their world wide worship to Belinik would make him much more Powerful.<

This is true, but I feel that more humans practice worshipping (Haelyn)
compared to goblins who do not actively practice (the worship of
Belinik, IMC), and therefore even though there are more goblins Belinik
doesn't receive more 'faith' than Haelyn does (for instance). So,
Belinik still retains 'Lesser' Status IMC.

In other words, Belinik might have larger 'province levels' (province
values) of 'lambs', but Haelyn owns more 'faithful' holding-pens
(temples) from his 'lambs'. Same goes for dwarves. Humans outnumber
them a lot to 1.

Cheers,
Darren

[DKEvermore@aol.co]

In a message dated 2/21/99 8:58:07 PM Central Standard Time,
JulesMrshn@aol.com writes:

> Understood, but Goblins are all over the world not just in Cerilia (maybe
> dwarves are too at least they are IMC). Giving their world wide worship to
> Belinik would make him much more Powerful.
>
Why do you say that? If that were true, shouldn't there also be dwarves and
elves all over the world?

- -DKE

[JulesMrshn@aol.co]

In a message dated 2/22/99 1:18:08 PM Central Standard Time,
DKEvermore@aol.com writes:

[Green Knight]

Is there room for more gods in Cerilia? If yes, what kind of gods would you like to see the most?

[Green Knight]

A series of demipowers could easily be inserted in the already existing pantheon without to much disruption.

[Bryon]

Again, I would have to agree with you. There is a place for more gods. Be they Demi-Powers or Gods from other lands.

I keep thinking about the Serpent and wonder if in other lands scoins may have risen to godhood in a demi-power state.

Would be interesting to see more about this.

[Green Knight]

There are rumors that there are clerics who worship the Sphinx and the cats of that domain.

The Kraken is worshiped as a god by the fishy-thingies that live in the Brecht Bay.

[Lawgiver]

People worship rocks and statues and call them gods...
People exhalt themselves as gods and make all sorts of false claims...

More important than the question of should their be more gods is, "What is the definition of a "god" in this cosmic foolishness?" If a god simply comes into existence when beings 'believe' in it is it truly a god? At what point does it come into existence? Who created Cerilia? If gods draw strength from the number of their followers are/were they powerless without followers or before the existence of man?

...

[Andy]

id have to say no just because I think having a few gods is what makes Birthright special. I think that some of the demipowers suggested in the books could be explored more, but i like it like Rome. Too many gods would start to turn BR into Forgotten Realms.

[Lord Eldred]

Yes, Lawgiver what is the dividing line between cult and religion?

I think that because it is an imaginary world there can be as many imaginary gods as the DM sees fit. Be them rocks, elven gods or what have you!

[Bryon]

I am still interesting in the question about should there be more Gods in BR.

To start off I must say that I like Forgotten Realms, but do not want to see Birthright becoming that.

But there is alot of unexplored area in Birthright. There must be more than just the Gods now talked about.

I believe that there is two or three? blooded regents that are now one the way to becoming gods in the game-The Serpent: Has a church and the priests prays are answered. The ruler in Brechtur, ? name, that has formed a highbreed church in her land that holds back the Swordhawk.

I would go with the idea of only a few major diety, but a bunch of minor ones. I do believe in the idea that faith make or break a god. If enough people believe in a thing as powerful than they make it powerful. Would it ever reach the status of a true god? Probably not, but it will become a lesser power.

There is alot of land and culture unexplored, I would think they have thier own gods. Their is alot of races even in the game now that worship lesser diety-(Goblin Kind and Orog).

So where do we go from here? How do the experts think?;)

[Mark_Aurel]

My answer to this would be complex.

The old gods are the creator gods; so much one can infer from old posts by Rich Baker to the mailing list. By the rules set forth in Deities and Demigods, I suspect that their power would be independent of their worshipers, unlike some other types of pantheons.

Are there other gods that prevail in other lands? There are some gods for other races, so this does not seem unreasonable. However, the full creation history of Cerilia being unrevealed, the status of the various deities and their interrelationship is unrevealed. In 2e, BR was part of the overall Planescape cosmology; in 3e, I think a separate cosmology for BR would be most suitable. Given this, the presence of "universal" gods such as the dwarven Moradin or Yeenoghu of the gnolls seems less acceptable. That can be worked around, though - Moradin could be part of the original pantheon; the minor humanoid gods could be more akin to demon princes, originally in the service of Azrai - there is a lot of potential for adding minor divinites along this line, especially in connection to Azrai, but also to other gods. The upcoming Deities and Demigods measure gods on a rank scale, from 0 to 20 or so; a rank 0 god has basically just a spark of the divine in him; somewhat akin to a solar in power.

I do not believe in adding any major gods, however.

Azrai could potentially be revived; he is the only of the old pantheon without a single direct heir, and the only one that is hinted at being not fully destroyed.

[Lord Eldred]

A lot of times, people of different areas pray to the same gods but call them by different names! I just wanted to share that with everyone!

[Bryon]

OK so we take this furthur. If there is only the certian amount of Major Gods, 8 right?, and they died at Desmiir. Than what would the other lands think.

Here I am in the Dragon Isle and my god all of a sudden stops answering my prayers, than some other diety manifest himself to me and say that he is the new god?????? I think that would throw anyone for a huge loop.

Also, can blooded regents become gods? If we go with the new Deities and Demigods, than they can, but with limited power??? I have not seen the new book.

Lastly, we ask again what makes a god, (Man I want to get the new Deities and Demigods). Does faith make the god or does the god make faith? Can the rock be worshiped by enough people to have it start answering prayers, ie spells?

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Nobody should worship The Rock. He's pretty good, but not worthy of worship. ;)

[Bryon]

Hay its a nice looking rock, pretty colors and such...

One day I wasn't feeling really good, I sat on it to rest and all of a sudden I felt alot better. I started using this as my "special" resting place and continued to feel better. Than as I was sitting there wondering if it would rain so my crops would have water, clouds appeared and it rained for two days.

I told my family and they started coming with me to the rock, we started asking favors as we sat on it and alot of them would come to be.

Now my daughter says we should polish the rock to make it happy, but my son says it must stay as it is for the power to continue. They both have started bringing friend to the rock at continue to debate what should be done.

I know sounds goofy, but is it faith or a god?

(As a side note: as you can tell I believe in only one God. I ask this in referance to the game and for debate)

[blitzmacher]

I don't think that's the rock gargamel was referring to, I think he was talking about that wrastlin' guy.:P

[Ariadne]

Yes, I think, there must be more powers!

There's no special god of healing or of divination (seeing) for example. I think it's good to create some more. The power I most miss is a power of absolute evil and necromancy (Azrai fills this, but he is dead, or not?)

[Azrai]

The cerilian gods are very close connected to a specific land. this makes it realy difficult
to establish an evil cult of krisha or belinik in foreign lands. so in my opinion there should be
more "normal" evil gods in the campaign.

[Lord Eldred]

Azrai, can you please explain your rationale for wanting more "normal" evil gods? Why? Why just evil? Define normal.

[Markazor King]

Oh my! You can call me conservative in my ways, but i think that more gods in Cerilia would be awfull. The setting is done, and it is very, very good. I think we should debate more about the existing ones rather than create new gods. The role opportunities are plenty with these we have. More debates in the gods that already exists in Cerilia would be great. Please, don't let Cerilia become Faerun, with ity's thousand deities to be worshiped.
Bye

[Azrai]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Azrai, can you please explain your rationale for wanting more "normal" evil gods? Why? Why just evil? Define normal.

one point is that Belinik and Krisha are connected to a specific culture. that makes them exotic
in anuire, they are outsiders per definition. further the two evil gods have not the broad range
of powers which we expect form "evil gods". what about necromancy for example ?
compared to cuiraecen, belinik is a joke. compare the powers of the spells and the might of the their priests.
An addition aspect is the pure number of gods. only two (three) evil gods are not enougth for
a promising campaign. charismatic leaders like cyric or bane are needed, which are present
in every culture.

of course, no real birthright-fan would prefer FR-like conditions in the pantheon.

[A_dark]

you can have a perfectly SPLENDID evil cult of Haelyn worshippers that seek to dominate over everyone else (LE) and spread their order at the point of a sword.

you can also have the splendid, non evil, but certainly villainous Emerald Spiral, stand against anyone, throwing excimmunications like peanuts and generally maintain the Rjurik in a Dark Age.

Kriesha is known in brechtur

Sons of Serpent and the Cuiraecen Church in Aftane can be perfect in Khinasi

The problem is not a lack of gods, since there is plenty of room allowed for the priests to be evil, even if their god is good. You can have the evil cult without having an evil god. That is the reason we have so many different doctrines flying around :)

[Birthright-L]

There is more. It seems that Belnik has a kind of crude appeal among
Ainureans; notice the various "Vos" cults in out-of-the-way places.


brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG> wrote at 02-06-27
11.37:

> A_dark wrote:
> you can have a perfectly SPLENDID evil cult of Haelyn worshippers that seek to
> dominate over everyone else (LE) and spread their order at the point of a
> sword.
>
> you can also have the splendid, non evil, but certainly villainous Emerald
> Spiral, stand against anyone, throwing excimmunications like peanuts and
> generally maintain the Rjurik in a Dark Age.
>
> Kriesha is known in brechtur
>
> Sons of Serpent and the Cuiraecen Church in Aftane can be perfect in Khinasi
>
> The problem is not a lack of gods, since there is plenty of room allowed for
> the priests to be evil, even if their god is good. You can have the evil cult
> without having an evil god. That is the reason we have so many different
> doctrines flying around :)
>
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[marcum uth mather]

I too dont like the fact the two evil gods are kind of out of the way when it comes to the rest of Cerilia. The Vos gods just dont fit the feeling of the rest of the world. They specialize in the ways of the Vos, the doctrines that help them survive. While they are evil and ruthless they just dont have the carisma of like a fr Bane with his Zenterium. Dont get me wrong BR is my favorit setting of all!!! i just whish there was a evil church out there with a better set of conections. With all the temples to Haelyn out there i was kind of likeing Robert Jordens idea of the children of the light. a quasi religius order that walkes around converting to to sword. they view EVERY one else as a enemy or potensional enemy. I think the WIP of Haelyn would be perfect for a plave to base them. have them start aas a affileated order and have them just keep growing out like missinaries. They just move in to save people from the darkness of there souls, next thing you know they have a sourse holding.

[Lord Eldred]

I think if you are comfortable with the concept than you should make it happen (assuming you are the DM). It makes sense to me that that could occur!

Just another argument of why there could be more gods...when the old gods died, new ones sprung up. If new ones can spring up once, why couldn't they again?

[kgauck]

Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 1:20 PM
marcum uth mather wrote:

> Dont get me wrong BR is my favorit setting of all!!! i just whish there
> was a evil church out there with a better set of conections.

I think the real source of evil in a campaign is supposed (by description)
to come from the abominations and their agents, and not from evil gods. Of
course there is Azrai, and the designers left it an open question whether he
is still out there. Perhaps, a cult of Azrai has X-files-like infiltrated
the courts throughout Cerilia. Perhaps evil in Cerilia is a question of the
local expansion of a dozen powerful abominations. Evil priests are
possible, either through Belinik and Kriesha, Azrai (as in the Hand and
Fingers), and the Serpent seems to grant spells. You point out, "They are
evil and ruthless they just dont have the carisma of like a fr Bane with his
Zenterium." True, so in that case, simply consider the power of Azrai to be
manifest. Azrai has as much pride and vanity as any dark diety.

Let`s not overlook the Cold Rider and a Shadow World based campaign as a
possibility. The possibility of peolpe being exchanged with Shadow World
equivilents. Imagine a campiagn that starts this way: "Hark, Boeruine and
Avanil announce a peace." The PC`s eventually learn that both rulers have
been replaced by their shadow world selves, and conspire to make the Cold
Rider emperor, or the Gorgon, or Azrai.

Let`s look closely at the White Witch, an abomination in the Rjuik
highlands. The realm is guided by an evil force, the White Witch. Rjurik
warriors can serve her as they would serve any other realm. Dark druids or
clerics of Kriesha (Karasha) are available. Given the WW`s emphisis on
guilds, expert theives and assasins to rival Eleole`s might be available.
Her web extends throughout Rjurik lands and she may be extending into
Dhoesone, Cariele, and beyond.

The Gorgon likewise can put every class against PC`s, as can a dozen or so
powerful abominations. Granted that some like the Siren or the Spider don`t
offer the same kind of anchor for a whole campaign against charismatic evil,
many of the abominations do, and they can be as close as you want through
agents and infiltrators.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

So imgine a

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[Sellenus]

I pray to Lord Eldred... but I'm sure it goes to someother in- box...

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Sellenus

I pray to Lord Eldred... but I'm sure it goes to someother in- box...

You pray to me? You shouldn't. Haelyn is my God and if you are going to pray you should pray to him. If you want I will pray with you. ::falls to his knees::

[Sellenus]

I'm sorry, but I don't pray like that... I usually ask for guidance... and Lord Eldred (8,000,000 posts) answers.

[Lord Eldred]

I am not sure if I should be insulted by your post, Sellenus. I only average 3.7 posts a day.

Now getting back to the original question "is there room for more gods?" What do YOU think Sellenus? Mr. 86 posts? What is your opinion?

While there are 9 people that say no, I am not sure they have legitimate arguments. Plus they need to answer the following:

1. The new gods arose from old gods? Why can't more new gods arise?

2. Who are the evil gods for the rest of the world? Many argue that two is not enough.

3. What god grants necromancy?

4. What god covers other specific areas?

5. Why is Green Knights argument that a bunch of demipowers could easily be placed in Cerilia wrong? In fact why wouldn't the power released at the great event caused other lesser gods?

6. Why couldn't other scions with god power in their blood attain god status?

7. Have you eliminated the Krakken and Sphinx as possible gods or others like the Gorgon for that matter?

8. Why does too many gods create a different flavor for Birthright?

9. As Bryon asks "what of the unexplored area of Birthright, why couldn't more gods come out of those areas?"

Give me hard core answer as to why we should not have one more stinking god in Birthright!

[Birthright-L]

I`m sure that there are other cultures outside Cerilia and maybe even
Aduria that have different pantheons that are truely seperate from the
Cerilian new gods. More inline:

brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG wrote:
> Lord Eldred wrote:
> 1. The new gods arose from old gods? Why can`t more new gods arise?

I`m sure more gods can arise. Either a completely new god or a god that
comes in from another culture.

> 2. Who are the evil gods for the rest of the world? Many argue that two is not enough.
>
> 3. What god grants necromancy?

I`d personally bring in the Cold Rider as a "new" evil god that covers
necromancy, death, corruption, disease, and maybe a few other things.

> 4. What god covers other specific areas?
>
> 5. Why is Green Knights argument that a bunch of demipowers could easily be placed in Cerilia wrong? In fact why wouldn`t the power released at the great event caused other lesser gods?
>
> 6. Why couldn`t other scions with god power in their blood attain god status?
>
> 7. Have you eliminated the Krakken and Sphinx as possible gods or others like the Gorgon for that matter?

I do believe that there are demigods in the world created by having a
fairly high bloodline and being worshipped by followers. The Kraken,
Sphinx, Serpent, and maybe a couple of others are certainly possible, IMO.

> 8. Why does too many gods create a different flavor for Birthright?
>
> 9. As Bryon asks "what of the unexplored area of Birthright, why couldn`t more gods come out of those areas?"

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[Lord Eldred]

Those answers further support my claim that there can be more gods. Anyone want to explain why there can't be more gods and answer the questions from my last post?

[Sellenus]

I'm sorry for joking and not answering the questions. I meant no offense...

I wouldn't say that there couldn't be new gods, I believe there isn't a need for new gods. For this I have a couple of reasons...

One of the strengths of BR is the relatively small list of gods, but most have a broad range of allowed alignments. Because of this it is easy to create a character concept and find an existing god to match the idea. Even if the concept is a poor match, the roleplaying aspect makes it worth it. I have yet to create a character who's ideas and goals couldn't be tied into an existing god.

Province level dictates the amount of different temple holdings right? (i.e. in a province (4), two different regents might each control 2 levels of temple holdings).So what would adding new gods do to this balance? I would rather see many Temples of Haelyn who's worship differs throughout Cerilia, rather than have his worship be diluted by several smaller gods each with a small portion of Haelyn's portfolio. If this province had temples to Bob the god of Lawful Justice, Sue the god of Morning Magic, then there whould be no room for Greater Gods Haelyn or Avani? Granted this example may be a bit foolish, but I'm sure you understand my point.

[Lord Eldred]

Probably the best argument so far as to why there shouldn't be more gods. However, what about the uncharted territory? Couldn't there be room for new gods there?

[Sellenus]

If it didn't upset any game balance, and if it would add to and improve a game... I don't see why not. Anything that improves the game should always be possible...

[Birthright-L]

brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG> wrote at 02-06-29
00.08:

> Lord Eldred wrote:
> I think if you are comfortable with the concept than you should make it happen
> (assuming you are the DM). It makes sense to me that that could occur!
>
> Just another argument of why there could be more gods...when the old gods
> died, new ones sprung up. If new ones can spring up once, why couldn`t they
> again?
>


A little late on this thread, but this in fact HAS happened; Laerme and
Eloehe were not at Diesmar, but were born afterwards.

/Carl

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[Lord Eldred]

You are right page 78 of the Rulebook. "Eloele (eh-low-eh-lay) is the daughter of Sera and Rournil. She was born in the early centuries following Deismaar..." "The daughter of Erik and Avani, Laerme appeared in the years after Deismaar."

Also page 80 implies there are many others "The pantheon of the young gods is recognized across the continent, but the human powers are not the only gods known to the people of Cerilia. Goblins, orogs, gnolls, and other creatures each worship their own powers. The awnsheghlien are even said to secretly swear allegiance to another power even greater than themselves."

So if the gods can have children and each different creature has their own god who could also have children...the possibilites are limitless!

[kgauck]

The objections to new gods (and in the interest of full disclosure, I
created two new gods, Denikin the Lord of Death and Makhno the Bringer of
Plague) is generally based in three reservations.

1) Its not in the published materials. This reservation is pretty
conservative, but it has some basis. Its conservative because it opposes
all change. It`s basis is that too much change converts your BR campaign
into a homebrew which is barely recognizable to BR`ers.

2) The system of holdings. If more gods means more clerics (and it doesn`t
have to) and more clerics means more temples in the holdings system (and it
doesn`t have to) then more gods means dividing up a fixed number of holdings
between more factions.

3) Some people like fewer gods. Fewer gods are easier to learn. More
people are familiar with the twelve Olympian gods of the Greeks than the
hundreds of gods of the Romans. Of course the Romans had the same big
names, and the rest of their gods were small "hearth" gods governing things
like doorways.

Adding demigods will be easier than adding greater gods because it requires
less of an adjustment to BR cosmology, realm play, and the division of
portfolios. Gods can be added without significantly altering play. That
doesn`t mean some won`t object to any new gods. As I said earlier any
change seperates players. A certain amount of variation means new ideas are
constantly percolating up for everyone to use, to much variation and we have
erected a tower of Bable.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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