Bringin back the dead

[Lord Eldred]

In posts of long ago, I bought into an argument that said resurrection seemed way too powerful and should either be eliminated or restricted. I decided to restrict it by only allowing each character to have one chance to be brought back from the dead (when the fall below -10 h.p.). What I did is a made the player fight the Shadow World shade of himself. The Shade had the h.p.'s and a.c. of the character but the rest of the stats were that of a shade. If the shade wins the character becomes a shade servant in the Shadow World for his Shadow World equivalent. If the character wins then the character gets the ability to sense shades from 60 feet away and they get to come back from the dead fully healed. The second time a person dies they are not given a chance to be brought back from the dead because their god/creator/force of nature will not allow it to happen. What do people think? My player whose character died didn't seem to like it very much but he went along with it.

[blitzmacher]

I like what you have done. Having to fight just to come back alive should make the character a little more careful with their life, and give a good tale for their friends. By not allowing anyone to be res. more than once keeps a more mystical feel to the game, and definately not something to be abused.
If the PC doesn't like it they can always remain dead.

[Mithrandir]

I myself prefer to allow the spell as is, but only allow it to be cast rarely, and never by PCs. Your method however, does have the desired effect of preserving the drama of the process, and keeping raising the dead from becoming a cheap party trick.

[Lord Eldred]

How do you keep it from being cast rarely? When you keep the spell as is any regent would be able to afford buying the spell to be cast from a high level cleric. Also on what grounds do you say an NPC can get the spell but a PC cannot? These were all questions that caused me to use the system I just implemented.

[Mithrandir]

If the god of the cleric in question needs/wants the character to be raised, then it happens. I simply don't allow clerics to mem it, and it can be cast spontaneously like other cure spells when it's granted. I only grant it when the character died in the middle of an important quest, or was killed by powerful magic/extraplanar forces that "interfered with his/her destiny". I prefer to retain direct control, rather then create rule, because sometimes I prefer to break my rules for the sake of the story. What if, for instance, you made one of the PCs intrinsc to the plot, and then he dies and is defeated by his shade, or dies twice before you can use him for what you need. However, if your system works, it works, and I can see how acheives the purpose of preventing abuse.

[Green Knight]

Don't like bringing back people from the dead. Quickly gets very silly. Placing a strict time limit, like 1 minute/caster level, for all such spells is on option that works rather well. Perhaps a realm verison of such spells could bring back people who have been dead for slightly longer. 1 day/caster level or something.

[Lord Eldred]

In this case it was within minutes of his death that he was raised. I agree that it becomes silly if the same character has been killed 8 times and brought back to life each time. My system eliminates the silly nature of raising dead.

I am also considering the chance that if the soul of the creature loses the battle against the shade and becomes it servant, the body does get raised but is undead and attacks the cleric who didn't allow the soul to join its creator. This would add an element of risk for the cleric.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred
In this case it was within minutes of his death that he was raised. I agree that it becomes silly if the same character has been killed 8 times and brought back to life each time. My system eliminates the silly nature of raising dead.

Do characters really die 8 times? I must be too weak on my players... I need to kill them off more often. :P

[Rcook12a]

I prefer to play low to mid-level campaigns so I have never run into a problem with this issue.
I would allow the PCs to get themselves resurrected but only at a high price. I never have NPCs sell spells for gold (unless they really need gold for some reason) but always demand some sort of service for casting major spells.
I've never had PCs high enough level to cast Resurrection but if I did I would let them use the spell as written because if I didn't it would be unfair.
If the campaign is a good one I don't think PCs will die often enough for this to be an issue and if for some reason the 20th level PC cleric wants to go around raising every peasant killed by the Pox I think his diety would have to take away his upper level spell abilities. After all if the priest isn't serving his faith and God with his abilities he's not going to be a priest for long. Which brings me to my final point. I don't recall any of the gods of Cerilia being gods of regeneration or rebirth in a way that they would encourage bringing back the dead. In fact the gods who's powers they inherrited died, why should humans be raised? I just talked myself out of my original point. I won't allow the raising of dead in my campaign the gods wouldn't have it.
Regards

[Abbess Allessandra]

What if the character was brought back via an artifact? This was the first time it was used and it has been in posession for 2 years now. There is also a strange connection between the god and the character. So much so that the character that resurrected the dead knows they are to protect him. Would this be a special case? I think so.

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Rcook12a

I prefer to play low to mid-level campaigns so I have never run into a problem with this issue.
I would allow the PCs to get themselves resurrected but only at a high price. I never have NPCs sell spells for gold (unless they really need gold for some reason) but always demand some sort of service for casting major spells.
I've never had PCs high enough level to cast Resurrection but if I did I would let them use the spell as written because if I didn't it would be unfair.
If the campaign is a good one I don't think PCs will die often enough for this to be an issue and if for some reason the 20th level PC cleric wants to go around raising every peasant killed by the Pox I think his diety would have to take away his upper level spell abilities. After all if the priest isn't serving his faith and God with his abilities he's not going to be a priest for long. Which brings me to my final point. I don't recall any of the gods of Cerilia being gods of regeneration or rebirth in a way that they would encourage bringing back the dead. In fact the gods who's powers they inherrited died, why should humans be raised? I just talked myself out of my original point. I won't allow the raising of dead in my campaign the gods wouldn't have it.
Regards

Wait a second, wouldn't that be unfair according to your original argument?

[Lord Eldred]

Is your argument, Abbess, resurrection should be left as is or are you arguing that it should at least exist in whatever form the GM sees fit?

Careful in your answer, I believe your GM is watching what you post :P

[Riegan Swordwraith]

But does anyone else look at this thread and want to shout "BRING OUT YOUR DEAD!!!!"





"I'm not dead yet!!"
"Your not fooling anyone!!!!"

[blitzmacher]

I feel happy! I feel happy!
THUNK!

[Abbess Allessandra]

I don't believe I was making an argument just stating that there are other ways to resurrect. The artifact that I have has only been used once under those extenuating circumstances. There has been no abuse of the artifact and it was used when all else failed.

[Chioran]

IM(not so)HO I like your method Eldred. However, let us not forget the system shock aspect of coming back. I feel that the player should have no recollection of what happened whilst dead. The awarenes of shades should be something that needs to be puzzled out over time. That is to say...

Formerly dead player will have a strange feeling come over him, but until there are enough cause and effect situations he won't really know why.

So after having this weird feeling and then encountering the shade, perhaps 70% of the time, the character will begin to figure out what these weird feelings are all about.

Remember how Spiderman had to learn that when his spider sense started tingling something bad was going to happen?

[Lord Shaene]

Hmm good idea Chioran, but what if perhaps the character who was brought back alive was an expert on the shadow world and extremely intelligent , might he then conclude very quickly what he senses?

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

I'm against the normal methods of ressurection in Cerilia. If that were possible, the way history has shaped itself would be drastically different. I believe the Gorgon would have dragged Michael Roele's body to Kal-Saitherak and ressurected him, so that he could torture him without mercy, just for fun.

[Chioran]

It would not matter if the character brought back alive was the maker of the shadow world. The point is that they would have to make the association between these odd feelings and the wncounter with a shade. You have to understand Shaene that you won't always have an encounter with the shade that you are sensing, so sometimes you will have this weird feeling without knowing why. Thereby causing some confusion. COuple that with the fact that youwere recently dead and you can see how a character might require some bit of time to make the association. Any one of great intelligence can see the logic here.

[Lord Shaene]

I didnt say he would automatically know, but that since I personally met and fought a shade I would know what his presence felt like. and since i have vast knowledge on the shadow world I would probable deduce that in fact a shades presence when a shades presence is near. it becomes a sixth sense in other words. example when you encounter a dragon he emits a presence of fear. once you experience the presence , youll know automatically the next time a dragon is near even if you cant see him.

[Chioran]

Not the same thing Shaene. Just because you have been in the presence of a shade before, does not mean that this new shade sense ability is equivalent to past experience.

Lets put this in different terms. Lets say that you have been in the presence of gold before. You get this tingling sensation when you are in the presence of it. Kind of like if you had bumped your funny bone, zapped a nerve, or something similar. All of the sudden you have this ability to detect gold although you can't see it, but you are not aware of this ability. The ability manifests itself in a tingling sensation.

So you are walking along and you feel this tingling sensation, but you look around and don't see anything. "Hmm, why am I tingling? Did I pass to close to an EMF? That's odd."

Let's say that this happens to you a couple of times over the course of a year. In three years it happens 7 times and 2 of those times you actually run across some gold. What are the odds that you will make the connection between the 2 events? Not rgeat at this point.

The fact of the matter is that unless the sensation is consistently followed by contact with the cause it will present a confusing puzzle.

[Lord Shaene]

the problem is that gold doesnt emit a sense, where as the shade would. the gold example is a bad one. i was saying that when something dramatic as your existance of life being threatened it is going to leave a lasting impression on you and your going to definately be aware of it when it presents itself again

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene

the problem is that gold doesnt emit a sense, where as the shade would. the gold example is a bad one. i was saying that when something dramatic as your existance of life being threatened it is going to leave a lasting impression on you and your going to definately be aware of it when it presents itself again

Life being threatened is one thing, we are talking about actual death my dear boy. THis is nothing so trivial as your life being threatened. When you die and are subsequently resurrected there is a shock to your system. This shock, in my opinion, should cause you to block out what has happened or lose the recollection all together.

[Lord Shaene]

This shock, in my opinion, should cause you to block out what has happened or lose the recollection all together.

thats an issue to take up with the dm

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene

This shock, in my opinion, should cause you to block out what has happened or lose the recollection all together.

thats an issue to take up with the dm

Of course it is, which is why just such a thing is being done.

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel

I'm against the normal methods of ressurection in Cerilia. If that were possible, the way history has shaped itself would be drastically different. I believe the Gorgon would have dragged Michael Roele's body to Kal-Saitherak and ressurected him, so that he could torture him without mercy, just for fun.

Sure that is possible, so what methods would you allow?

[Lord Eldred]

Lord Shaene I would have to agree with Lord Chioran, I should have made you try to figure this ability out. The way that would happen is that I would describe the feeling that you had and then you would have to make an intelligence check to see if you recognize the feeling. Perhaps your knowledge of the Shadow world would give you a bonus on that check but I am not sure why it would.

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Lord Shaene I would have to agree with Lord Chioran, I should have made you try to figure this ability out. The way that would happen is that I would describe the feeling that you had and then you would have to make an intelligence check to see if you recognize the feeling. Perhaps your knowledge of the Shadow world would give you a bonus on that check but I am not sure why it would.

Because he's a big baby and has to get his way or he's going to cry.:P

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel
I'm against the normal methods of ressurection in Cerilia. If that were possible, the way history has shaped itself would be drastically different. I believe the Gorgon would have dragged Michael Roele's body to Kal-Saitherak and ressurected him, so that he could torture him without mercy, just for fun.

I would add that bringing back the dead would be tied to a matter of wanting to return to life. Sort of like the resurrection spell prepares and restores a body to be re-entered by its spirit. If however, the spirit chooses not to return to the body the spell fails by default.

In this case, I beleive that M. Roele would have been aware of the circumstances around his body and choose not to allow his spirit to return his body.

[Lord Eldred]

Lawgiver, your thinking fits in with my construct. A soul is making its journey to meet its maker. The loved ones or companions left in the material world can't handle the death and want to bring the soul back so they cast resurrection. The resurrection spell creates a connection between the material world and the soul calling it back. If it chooses to answer that call, it starts making its journey back but not without its Shade Double in the Shadow World trying to prevent that return. Thus a fight with the shade. However, if the soul does not wish to answer the call of the resurrection spell, the soul would continue its journey to meet its maker. Hence the spell failed.

[Chioran]

Interesting points, both, L.G and El. However, should the resurrectee be required to make a will save against the attmept, should thehy not wish to return? Could a powerful cleric have the ability to bring them back against their wishes?

[Lord Eldred]

Excellent idea. It would make sense that a powerful cleric could bring them back against their wishes. A will save would help play that out!

Anyone else have any ideas.

[Chioran]

I can actually think of a situation where this could have played out. I was in a group where one of my characters died and the DM and other players wanted to bring him back, but I did not. Fortunately, there was no cleric pweroful enough and near enough to do it.

Sure would have made things interesting though.

[Tzarevitch]

As I recall, you can't bring someone back against that person's wishes.

Tzarevitch

[Mark_Aurel]

It's against the rules to bring someone back from the dead unless they wish to come back.

See PHB p. 153.

[Lord Eldred]

There are all kinds of rules that are adapted because people disagree with them. Why couldn't a powerful Cleric force someone to come back to life?

[Mark_Aurel]

I don't see anything inherently wrong against making such a house rule. However, in the core rules, it is not permitted.

If you have Deities & Demigods, a god with the Gift of Life salient divine ability can revive people against their will. Thus, I'd presume that a cleric of a god with that ability could also get a creature revived against its will by casting a miracle spell and burning 5000 xp within the core rules - that is contingent upon the god being able to do that, though. After all, gods aren't all-powerful.

[Lord Eldred]

Mark, I am a little confused by your answer on one hand you are saying the rules say you can't do it but then you point to the Deities and Demigods and say that maybe they can. Which are you advocating?

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Mark, I am a little confused by your answer on one hand you are saying the rules say you can't do it but then you point to the Deities and Demigods and say that maybe they can. Which are you advocating?


Easy. The Core Rules say no. An author of a supplement ignored the core rules for their own purposes as they often seem to and made a new rule for an expansion book.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Lawgiver, your thinking fits in with my construct. A soul is making its journey to meet its maker. The loved ones or companions left in the material world can't handle the death and want to bring the soul back so they cast resurrection. The resurrection spell creates a connection between the material world and the soul calling it back. If it chooses to answer that call, it starts making its journey back but not without its Shade Double in the Shadow World trying to prevent that return. Thus a fight with the shade. However, if the soul does not wish to answer the call of the resurrection spell, the soul would continue its journey to meet its maker. Hence the spell failed.

After reading this idea of the fighting your own Shade a few questions came to my mind.
What would the PC use to fight with the Shade? Are "spiritual" versions of their weapons and armor carried with them to the undeath?
Can wizards cast spells in this strange state?
Are wizards limited to spells they memorized before they died?
Can preists call on their God while they are dead?
Does the Shade have all of the spells the PC has?
If the PC is lawful good what is the alignment of the shade?
IF the PC is a preist with spells required from a good god, would the Shade have access to those spells?

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Lawgiver


Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Lawgiver, your thinking fits in with my construct. A soul is making its journey to meet its maker. The loved ones or companions left in the material world can't handle the death and want to bring the soul back so they cast resurrection. The resurrection spell creates a connection between the material world and the soul calling it back. If it chooses to answer that call, it starts making its journey back but not without its Shade Double in the Shadow World trying to prevent that return. Thus a fight with the shade. However, if the soul does not wish to answer the call of the resurrection spell, the soul would continue its journey to meet its maker. Hence the spell failed.

After reading this idea of the fighting your own Shade a few questions came to my mind.
What would the PC use to fight with the Shade? Are "spiritual" versions of their weapons and armor carried with them to the undeath?
Can wizards cast spells in this strange state?
Are wizards limited to spells they memorized before they died?
Can preists call on their God while they are dead?
Does the Shade have all of the spells the PC has?
If the PC is lawful good what is the alignment of the shade?
IF the PC is a preist with spells required from a good god, would the Shade have access to those spells?

1. The PC would have the "spiritual versions" of anything he/she carried at the time of death.

2. Wizards can cast spells but are limited to the spells they memorized before they died.

3. Priests can only use spells they have already called on their God to provide before they died. Their God can also be called on but can only intervene to prevent the souls return. However the priest who is trying to bring back the dead through resurrection can cast beneficial spells upon the body that will help the soul such as bless.

4. The Shade only has the powers that a shade has and does not possess the same casting abilities if it is copying a wizard or a priest. Although it carries the trappings of being a wizard or priest.

5. The question of alignment I am still working out. I just assumed they were evil but the question arises is it possible that a good shade exists?

[Mark_Aurel]

No, there is no inconsistency in what I said - it goes like this:

- A mortal can never raise or resurrect someone against their will. This includes player characters of any level.

- A god, and only a god, with the specific Divine Salient Ability Gift of Life, can resurrect a creature against its will, as long as the deity to whom the soul of that creature also agrees.

A cleric casting a Miracle spell is essentially asking the god for intervention of some kind - such intervention is often tied to the Salient Divine Abilities of the god in question. A god of death can grant powerful miracles related to killing and reviving people, a god of weather can create extremely powerful weather effects, a god of war can grant the means to win a war, etc.

Thus, a cleric might be able to revive a creature against its will - if his deity has the ability to do so, and the cleric casts a Miracle to ask him to use it on his behalf.

In Cerilia, though, I don't really see any gods as having the Gift of Life ability, and certainly not any evil ones - perhaps Nesirie could have it.

[Ariadne]

Why shouldn't a character brought back to live, if he can? We all know there aren't much clerics who are powerfull enough to raise the dead, why also stop them if the character has the rare chance to encounter one?

By the way, the bloodline is gone, if there isn't some sort of special spell (limited wish, wish, restore bloodline). I didn't want to play an unblooded charakter, if he was born with a bloodline (he didn't want that either)! O.K. you can say, he can make a quest to get one of these spells, but they are VERY rare. (What do you want to do, ask the Magian?) ;)

[Lord Eldred]

The way I play it is that the bloodline is not lost until the character reaches their final resting place. If the resurrection happens soon enought, the bloodline is not lost.

[Birthright-L]

How can you combine this with bloodtheft? After all, you don`t have to
pierce someone through the heart to absorb some of his escaping bloodline.

/Carl

brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG <brnetboard@TUARHIEVEL.ORG> wrote at 02-06-29
00.05:

> Lord Eldred wrote:
> The way I play it is that the bloodline is not lost until the character
> reaches their final resting place. If the resurrection happens soon enought,
> the bloodline is not lost.
>

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[Lord Eldred]

Blood theft would be a different story. The bloodline is lost. However, the returned character could steal it back!