3E: Crafting Magic Items

[morgramen]

What have you all done about the 3E 'Crating of Magic Items"? I'm curious to see how you have moified it to suit the lower magic availability of Anuire.

It seems to me that the common system (aside for added funky-ness) for all crafting is 1 day/1,000 GP base value.

Now, this seems to be a bit... fast for a birthright campaign IMO, and I was considering changing it to read 1 week/1,000 GP or something similar. Potions might be the exception of course, but even these should not be able to be cranked out like a Labatts brewery.

Since time and RP cost seem to be the 2 biggest elements that would concern a Birthright wizard, I think they should take precedence over simply increasing the base cost of the items. I don't think a wizard could enchant a sword +2 flame tongue (or something) in a single week - it should take at least a standard domain action if not more IMO.

Thoughts?

[Lord Eldred]

If I had my way, I would pretty much eliminate it. Without my way, I think even your adjustment still makes it way too easy. Perhaps times everything by 100 or more?

[Riegan Swordwraith]

As far as a regent goes,in order to create a magical item,he would have to take an Adventure action as well to gather the necessary components.Say the Flametongue needs a piece of the corpse from some Fire subtype creature or something facsimile.True the creator could just hire adventurers to retreive it,but until they return,he could do nothing.

Also I beleive in the Item Creation Feats have to be learned from old tomes or taught by those that have the knowledge.Just because a wizard has reached 5th level does not mean he can pick up Craft Wondrous Item,without ever studying it before-hand.

[Strahd]

Orginally posted by morgramen
.....I don't think a wizard could enchant a sword +2 flame tongue (or something) in a single week - it should take at least a standard domain action if not more IMO.

Thoughts?
You could bypass the problems caused by enforcing the optional training rule; if a player wants to craft a magic item, he should learn the process by an individual who already knows it. I.e. finding one of the 150 known wizards (mentioned in Atlas & BoM) and CONVINCE him to teach him the feat.
However, if you ask for your PBEM... maybe an increase to 1/week per 1000 gp (I think Travis proposes something similar for spellbooks & spells) would "solve" the problem.

--
John

[Lord Eldred]

Even Travis's conversion makes it way too easy to craft magic items in a world where it is suppose to be rare. I do like the idea that you have to convince someone else to train you and why would they want to pass this knowledge on to someone they just met. Could they ever really trust them with the knowledge?

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

Even Travis's conversion makes it way too easy to craft magic items in a world where it is suppose to be rare. I do like the idea that you have to convince someone else to train you and why would they want to pass this knowledge on to someone they just met. Could they ever really trust them with the knowledge?

Eldred,

I am having vague recollections of something we had done previously involving prohibitively high DCs and catastrophic failure results.

[Lord Shaene]

another idea could be to set a very low percentage on a successful creation, if say you had a 3% or less chance of making an item. this could be explained by the loss of the knowledge on how to make them over the years. or that one little mistake anywhere during the process could make it fail
also you could give a wizard a chance to increase the percentage 2% if he spent time researching and devolping a specific item but only for that type of item

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Lord Shaene

another idea could be to set a very low percentage on a successful creation, if say you had a 3% or less chance of making an item. this could be explained by the loss of the knowledge on how to make them over the years. or that one little mistake anywhere during the process could make it fail
also you could give a wizard a chance to increase the percentage 2% if he spent time researching and devolping a specific item but only for that type of item

5% chance of success... OUCH! thats a bit stiff don't you think. I would prefer the option of increased time and money. The shear limited number of true wizards to 100ish should be sufficient to limit most items.

Another option would be to require the infusion of a portion of the wizard's bloodline. If you imbue an item with magic it draws the power from the wizard tie to the land. Or perhaps a magical item could draw on the mebhaighl in the realm and temporarily reduce the source level in the province. Sort of like creating a temporary void of magic since large amounts of mebhaighl have been sucked into an item it takes a few months to regain its strength...

Just my two coppers worth.

[Lord Eldred]

I would agree that the limited number of wizards would reduce the number of magic items in the overall world but the ability of the one wizard in your campaign party who is kicking out magic items would unbalance the immediate campaign! 5% chance eliminates that problem.

[Riegan Swordwraith]

I think everyone is still forgetting that in 3E,creation of a magical item also requires an expenditure of xp.Increase the time to around a week per 1000 gp,but also double or even triple xp requirements.

[Mark_Aurel]

A 5% chance of success would eliminate any potential of any PC ever trying seriously to make magical items.

Now, the rules as they are actually work well. With the generally limited number of spellcasters in the campaign, magical items should be quite rare to begin with. To compound this, BR has the factor of limited time for spellcasters to craft magic items. In most campaign settings, wizards and priests don't have the secondary domain obligations that they do in BR - this can eat up a lot of time. To balance that, a spellcaster with no compunctions about draining the treasury some should have no problems coming up with enough gold to pay for any magic item construction that they want to undertake.

In either case, there are more factors to consider.

-Magic items are supposed to be rare, but not virtually non-existent. If you look at the NPC descriptions, they all come with magical items. Even quite powerful magical items. Now, 2e did not have the same balancing mechanics on this as 3e does, so giving a +4 weapon to a 6th-level character was "go" in 2e.
-One designer once suggested a ratio of about 50% of normal for magical items in BR - this means that characters should have about half the magic items found in other worlds, by level.
-The above note on NPCs and magic items would suggest that characters should find far fewer items of minor status in specific, while the relative ratio of medium and major items is not reduced by an equal amount.
-A more important and better mechanic for limiting magic items is the frequency by which items are found, and the items that are discovered each time.
-Spellcasters are few already. By restricting the magic item creation rules, you are essentially setting up the question "where do all the magic items that the NPCs have come from?"
-Can 3e spellcasters churn out magic items like a factory of some kind? No. You must consider the cost involved. The character spent one or more feats to get the ability to make magic items. If you limit the ability to make magic items, you make these feats darn near useless. Magic items cost xp. A ton, actually, when you think about it. A few hundred here, a few hundred there. Adds up quite quickly.
-Adding to the gold cost isn't a solution. The items either become too expensive to make, or the citizens of some backward nation will _really_ feel the taxes flowing into those +3 swords.
-Adding to the xp cost isn't a solution. Characters will generally rather want levels than the relatively minor items they can craft.
-Adding to the time to make an item? A week per 1000 gp? Well. You'll soon have items take years to make. Literally. While that may mirror the "feel" of some items, it will basically put these items off-limits for any normal PC. Miss half a year of domain actions? No thanks.

The cost of crafting magic items is already quite high. You pay in feats, gold and experience. In short, the character could potentially have more power in other areas.

Limiting magic items messes with the class balance in a very serious way. If sorcerers are used (most use them, it seems), they'll become WAY more powerful if magic item creation becomes limited. Wizards won't have many redeeming features in that situation, in terms of absolute power. Clerics also lose relatively less than wizards in this situation. In short, reduce magic item creation = shaft the wizard.

I think the main tool for limiting magic items should be the treasure given out, first and foremost. As the rules are, I doubt that a wizard or cleric could compensate much for a shortcoming in that category. A wizard or cleric that creates a _lot_ of items would generally be a level behind other characters and have less useful feats in combat. It's not as easy as you may think it is, and that is why I also think you shouldn't touch it much.

[Mark_Aurel]

Just to clarify one more time: That isn't to say I don't think magic items should be rare. The point is that they should be limited more by their rarity as treasure or loot than by the inability of PCs to create it.

It may seem easier than in 2e to make magic items. But the choice is still quite hard - take a feat, get +2 on a save category, or take a feat that lets you blow painfully earned xp and less painfully earned gold to make magic items?

[Green Knight]

The nicest magical items require high caster levels and powerful spells if you are to craft them. With 150 wizards/sorcerers (of varying levels) and few high-level clerics, who is going to make these items? Let the magicians make their potions and scrolls if they like, its all they're ever going to see :)

IMO, substituting 1 week for 1 day might work nice. Otherwise, use as is.

[Chioran]

Given the way 3e is constructed it should be a simple enough process to develop a DC system for item creation that is prohibitive yet not impossible. Additionally, an interesting twist is to create a situation where if the creation fails give a percent chance of the item being cursed.

That would keep the wizards on their toes and make the campaign that much more interesting.

[Sellenus]

I agree with Lawgiver... Everything in Birthright deals with or depends on ties to the land. The dramatic effects that item creation could have on a realm could very well be the limiting factor.

[centAUr]

Orginally posted by Mark_Aurel

Just to clarify one more time: That isn't to say I don't think magic items should be rare. The point is that they should be limited more by their rarity as treasure or loot than by the inability of PCs to create it.


I quite agree.
In order to create a +4 magical item you sould be a 12th level true wizard, spend half your treasury (if not all), lots of XP and a domain action. Actually this mean that in Anuire only Isaelie, Aelies, Rhuobe and Gorgon can do that(pardon me if I forget somebody). What I want to say is that in a PBeM were the regents have to administrate their domain, it seems quite difficult for anyone(maybe, apart from Gorgon) to produce magical items massively(minor or else). Ok, your adventuring PC scion wizard can definately tell you that between an adventure he makes/tries to make a magical item, but in a PBeM it is really difficult to create them massively(unless you have a way a finding new XPs at will). My point is that what we want, is not to make magical items impossible to create. Limiting the rate of finding items is fair enough.

[Temujin]

I also agree with what Mark Aurel said. The given rules are fair enough for BR, after all, unlike other campaign settings, xp and gold don't grow on trees, and magical items are rare to find. If you want to make more than one, you'll assuredly end up a level or two below what you could be AND you'll have to spend time and valuable gold, both which are scarce enough, especially for a wizard regent who never has too many of either.

[Random]

First off, I'd like to say that I pretty much second everything Mark Aurel said.

A few point of my own:

The Challenge Rating (CR) system assumes that PCs have magic items appropriate for their level. If you limit the availability of magic items you severly downgrade the PC party as adventurers. Now, that's not a bad thing, but you shouldn't assume that they can handle the challenges that DMG and MM assume they can. 50% less magic items would amount to something around 20% downgrade (in my questimate) and that's taking into account some blood abilities and the +10 hps for being a regent.

Not being able to punch their weight leads to high PC-death count if the DM isn't paying attention. The obvious solution (after noticing the problem) is to use lower CR opponents but that leads to slower level advancement. With the XP table in DMG being too generous for my taste at least, this slower leveling pace might not be a bad idea.

One point where my view of Birthright might differ from the consensus here is that I don't have any objection to PCs and regents having powerful magic items. I don't want to have +1 and +2 swords and shields under every rock and on the hands of every soldier, but every ruler of the land may have premium equipment. IMC, PCs have magic items amounting to about the total value assumed by DMG for their level but it's mostly in one or two powerful items, not in ten or twenty trinkets (which is the cost efficient way to do it).


Random Encounter

[Lord Eldred]

I understand your arguments but Random why couldn't you solve the problem by making sure that the party is going against appropriately leveled challenges and when they don't the party should be smart enough not to hack and slash.

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Lord Eldred

I understand your arguments but Random why couldn't you solve the problem by making sure that the party is going against appropriately leveled challenges and when they don't the party should be smart enough not to hack and slash.

You give some parties too much credit El. I have seen many circumstances where a party uses that as an opportunity to wreak havoc.

[Chioran]

Granted there are some things you can do to make that a less attractive alternative ;)

[Crazy Wolf]

In our campaign, any time you have an item that is not consumed in its use then it must have a name. We had one character that did not like that and therefore the magical sword was withholding its power and functioning as a simple masterwork. There was a lot of research required and once he learned which wizard had made it and its name and history the sword would function. In game terms this is because for us, wizards think they are the most power people in the multiverse and limit the magic items to only work once the person accepts that by saying the name of the creator.
This has kept magical items from becoming commonplace.

CW

[Chioran]

Very creative. I like that alot.

[Crazy Wolf]

We found that is easier than adjusting CRs at every level. Just our little thing, DMs will do what they will.

[blitzmacher]

I think one way to limit the creation of magic items in birthright might be to add the cost of bloodline strength points in addition to the experience cost of creating an item.