Endier

[kgauck]

Discussion thread for Endier (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Endier). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Mojczak]

Is there any reason why the Macceln bloodline is listed as Masela, 18, instead of the Brenna 32 they were in secrets of endier?

[kgauck]

Endier was uploaded from another source. Is it possible the Maccelns listed are a cadet branch of those listed in the PS?

[Mojczak]

Nop. Miera is the same daughter of Gavin Macceln, she is even listed as F2 in the Sourcebook and with a major brenna of 36 (while her father and all other macceln, including her own sons, are brenna major 32). Would be hard. As the Macceln have been in endier for only as far as 60 year. Gavin being the First Endieran estalished macceln, as he hailed from talinie. All living canonic members of the macceln bloodline of endier are posted in the PS.

[kgauck]

Do bring them into line with the PS, if you consider it the best approach.

[Mojczak]

I have adapted the bloodline... even tho I question the changing of class. If we make the transition from 2nd edition to 3.5... well, I don't even get why they put her a fighter class in the first place, I would almost be inclined to think this as a typo... but in 3.5, I hardly see how she would be able to fare well in the criminal ring, to the level of a Macceln with a fighter's skills list. Maybe multiclass her...?

[kgauck]

It may be the case that whomever wrote the document used some of the characters in a campaign and adapted them thereto.

Either multi-classing or just reverting to rogue. Rogues make good combatants unless pitted directly against fighters, and even then not until mid level.

[Mojczak]

Why aren't Guilder and Kalien both linked together to internal pages?

[kgauck]

I'm not sure what you're asking. There is a Kalien page, and a Guilder page, and while I see some examples where guilder isn't linked, Kalien certainly is. All that's on his page is a short paragraph, his portrait, and trademark.

[Mojczak]

Why it goes like: Guilder [[Kalien]], instead of [[Guilder Kalien]], which is the name if known for.

[kgauck]

We don't put titles in names. Properly he should have a last name and his page moved to [[Kalien xyz]].

[Mojczak]

Didnt morgramen had a published story of Kalien's past on the defunct bloodsilver.com domain?

[kgauck]

I'm not sure.

[Mojczak]

There's one way to find out. Get his email adress by some mean. I think he had it put on his site on the very last few months the thing was open. And to my memory it was either from one of the original developper or inspired after one conversation with one of them. Possibly baker.

[Thelandrin]

That is of course assuming that Kalien isn't his surname. After all, he's always known as Guilder Kalien and, in this case, "Guilder" is comparable to "Master" or simply "Mr".

[Sorontar]

Or a nickname.... or he could have originally been the Guilder of the Kalien... whatever that is.

Sorontar

[Thelandrin]

When I played Endier in Heirs of the Fallen Empire IV, I chose to play as Kalien's son, Garog Kalien. *shrug*

[Mojczak]

I think it's part of the man, that he want's his first name to remain unknown, or just that he doesn't care and prefer being called by his office.

[kgauck]

Its not very likely that anyone is ever referred to by their last name. Keeping a given name secret is not very secret (unless name magic is being used) but a surname tells you a lot about the person.

And if one is going to invent a name, why only invent one?

[Mojczak]

Well if you read Kalien's description well you realise that he does not like people frolicking with his past. And he couldn't hide the fact that he had one. At least that way he is making sure that people know there is something to hide, willingly, and that he might not like people looking at it... It's twisted logic but that might be a possibility.

[kgauck]

The way people with secrets get caught, is by leaving clues and daring people to figure it out. So based on your arrangement, Kalien wants his past uncovered, but wants it done by someone worth the discovery.

Given the way bardic knowledge works, going to Brechtur and asking ten bards with roughly ten levels (depending on Int) of bard (or any class with the lore ability) gives you about a 40% chance of uncovering his secret.

Given the number of ships going between points A and B, this question will be answered pretty quickly.

The best liars, like magicians (people who pull rabbits from hats), use misdirection to keep your eye on the wrong thing. If Kalien is a good liar, his real secret is elsewhere, and his identity secret is so banal that people who uncover it are not believed. Surely the great Kalien is not keeping the fact that his mother is Louisa Sadler a secret?

[Mojczak]

Thats a bit of a problem when you resolve those enigmas in terms of rule mechanics, honestly... I just think that this is where an average liar would lie, but I hardly doubt he wants his past uncovered (there is a murder story if I remember a bit...), I think he just want people to know that they shouldn't mess with his past... at least, that way, when someone is looking for the strange half elf brecht named kalien past he has good chances that his own spy network will find out before the person has done any headways...

[kgauck]

I would be very disappointed if Kalien was just an average liar.

[Mojczak]

I was saying that you analysis would make him be so... I don't think he is, that's the point. The way I portray things I see him as a damn good strategist. You I do that... to know when I receive spam mail for stupid crap or to avoid receive stupid phone calls, on non-official board I use fake names, so when they call and ask for Henry H, when my name is Erik, I honestly KNOW that I can send them to hell. If kalien does the same thing with his fake name, which cannot be traced, and additionally cut in half, making it even more obvious when people go asking questions around, that just makes it easier to have the chaps taken before they do any real harm...

[Thelandrin]

Well, all this proves is that Kalien as we know him only has one name and that he only chooses to be known by that one name :)

[kgauck]

Moving to a new town and using a new name is not a terribly impermeable barrier to one's past. Brecht half-elves with major bloodlines aren't exactly so common as to be unnoticed. I am aware of nine great bloodlines in Brechtur. One of these is Britter Kalt. Even if we should double to triple this number for new families not yet invented, the number of people to consider is not only finite, its quite small. The affairs of such people is not an obscure one. figuring out which of these houses had some scion encounter a elf (or half-elf) and produce a child isn't exactly like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Threats to keep it silent, like the ogre in front of the treasure chest, just serve to convince the curious that what lies within is really worth a good look. Kalien is neither personally formidable, nor is his organization any more impressive than a dozen others.

Moving to a new town and using a new name is a slightly more expanded version of "ignore the man behind the curtain." On top of this, Kalien is surrounded by plenty of coincidences in Endier, like all those mysterious deaths of the heirs. There should be no shortage of curious regents and adventurers, so I cannot imagine that based on this scheme alone, much remains a secret for 25+ years.

There are ways to complicate the trail, only so much to slow the curious, however. The best thing the bearer of a secret can do, however is not to advertise that they have a secret. Since that is the route Kalien has taken, I cannot believe that the secret he so openly hides (his past) is a useful or meaningful secret at all. His real secret must be more interesting and must lie elsewhere.

[Sorontar]

There are many reasons Kalien may not want to be easily traced. For instance, maybe he doesn't want to be associated with one of his parents (or their family), or he doesn't want his blood history to be known. We can't assume that his birth was widely known nor that he was born blooded. These sort of things could ruin his reputation, or add to the many reasons he is a target for assassination. After all, he wasn't always a regent. At first he would have had to take precautions that may no longer be important. It might be that he now has enough regency to overcome whatever was the reason for the choice of names.

Sorontar.

[AndrewTall]

Another possibility is that he stole his bloodline via usurpation - a half elf born with a major bloodline is rare, a 'simple' half elf may have been completely unknown outside the elven realms or otherwise unworthy or notice - particularly if he was an outcast byblow of some sort with a shameful birth.

To me the more interesting question is why claim a realm in Anuire not his native Brechtur? A simply question of competition, or a need to be far away from Brechtur and some awkward history? Or is he part of a Hanner Sidhe history gathering secrets from across Anuire for use in the future...

[kgauck]

We know he gained the bloodline of Endier by Investiture, but one supposes that wasn't the last. Its possible like some other villains, he started small and through a whole series of bloodthefts, he got to the point where a little investiture got him more or less where he is today. That would certainly be something to hide. I can't imagine that in a world ruled by blooded individuals, this kind of rise to power is acceptable.

But consider that the advantage of some very small number of great (and an only slightly larger number of major) Brecht bloodlines is not that Kalien's ancestry must be among them, it is that being small and finite, one can know almost for sure whether he does or does not come from among them.

I would strongly suspect that what Kalien is hiding is a trail of murdered and betrayed scions, a tale so common from Blood Enemies. Certinaly in Endier, Kalien plays the part of a mercantile Richard III. Why not just extend that pattern back farther?

[Sorontar]

Oh, the sneakiest is if someone notable made him their blood heir and that was how he was blooded. Somewhere in Brechtur, someone died but the blood points didn't go to anyone who was expected to be the heir. Instead they went to Kalien, but few know this. Why, I cannot say, but as the mysterious blood recipient, he is safer outside Brechtur than in it.

After all, there has never been any suggestion that someone who has previous been designated/invested as an heir would know if somone new had replaced them as heir. Its like the modern day battles over wills.

I can really see this as being a problem if it was an elf giving his royal blood to his secret bastard half-elf son (who is not in the least bit elven or hanner sidhe).

Sorontar.
ps. Is there any spell to tell you someone's blood history? The blood ability only tells you the history of your own bloodline.

[kgauck]

Know Bloodline is a 1st level spell in the BoP, there doesn't seem to be a more advanced version. The 1st level spell tells you strength and derivation, but not history. Legend Lore would seem to have the capacity to read a bloodline without any special changes. Clerics, who really should have this power to use as part of an investiture or coronation, and so on, should have a spell like this at about 5th level (9th level caster) which can tell you all you might want to know about the current scion and his bloodline. Something at the 7th level might be able to trace a bloodline all the way back to Deismaar.

[AndrewTall]

I can really see this as being a problem if it was an elf giving his royal blood to his secret bastard half-elf son (who is not in the least bit elven or hanner sidhe).

Or if it was a human father giving it to his sole direct heir (the illegitimate half elf) rather than investing a brother / nephew / etc as the family desired...

I can well see a noble family seeing the big inherited bloodline as 'family property' and not as belonging to the individual bearer. You then get a whole family with a grudge against Kalien simply because he was loved by his father / mother...

[The Swordgaunt]

Is there a reason for the discrepancy between the Endier-page (under Adventure Ides) hinting towards Mehaillie Bireon looking to Kalien for a matrimonial alliance, while her own entry says she's wed to Aarturous Rhaedien?



Another way to interpret Bireon’s interest is the fact that she may be interested in finding herself a mate.




[...]when [Mehaillie] met Aarturous, she was smitten by him, and he by her. They fell in love, and she changed her plans from the hostile acquisition of a guild to the amorous acquisition of a husband with a guild.


While I am familiar with the vagueness of adventure-hooks, it caught my attention, and I thought I'd take the oportunity to see if anyone has given this some thought.

[AndrewTall]

Hmm, Mheallie only went up fairly recently - I guess that we just didn't remember the Kalien connection. Something to fix - though with Mheallie's age it might be better to create a daughter for Mheallie - someone who would need help to rule a guild maybe...