The Imperial City

[The Swordgaunt]

Discussion thread for The Imperial City (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/The Imperial City). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[prince_dios]

Great article, I must say.

What are the sources, out of curiousity? (there's a non-canon flag you should attach to the article if its homebrewed material)

[The Swordgaunt]

Ahem... Looks like I've started this thread...

I've been away for a while (a big fat sorry to those of you that I should've replied to, RL hit me with the reality stick), and by admiering the marvels of the new and shiny forum/wiki I must have stumbled over a button.

*goes away to bang head against wall in shame & embarrasment*

[kgauck]

Tthere's a non-canon flag you should attach to the article if its homebrewed material

Since the amount of non-canon material is infinite and the amount of pristine canon is very small, editorial policy is to mark homebrew material as such only when it conflicts with canon or standard D&D rules. Otherwise everything would end up homebrew, or be restricted to a very small body of information.

If there is a need for it, we can mark canon as canon, but the desire is to expand the setting by filling in the gaps and making the whole thing consistant, so there should be very little reason to mark canon differently.

[Autarkis]

The problem with using that logic is that it could be considered non-canon when someone writing something conflicts with it (the 1st non-canon interpretation that doesn't conflict with canon material), since the person will think it is canon but there is no indicator to tell them otherwise.

Non-canon material is indeed infinite, for any setting, and canon material is finite, in any setting. As such they should identified as what they actually are Again, this could lead to "Well, this is non-canon only because it conflicts with established material...er...what book was this in..well...uhm...geez..."

Heck, I am having difficulty even arguing it since it seems we have three buckets:

1) Canon
2) Non-Canon but not flagged that since it doesn't conflict with canon (but could lead to multiple articles conflicting with each other but all not flagged non-canon)
3) Non-Canon because it conflicts with canon and possibly interpreted to be flagged this if the person thinks an item from #2 is canon (since it is not flagged non-canon)

[kgauck]

Its not a bug, its a feature.

[Autarkis]

What is a bug? I guess I don't understand your comment.

I was more commenting about the integrity of original data which can be potentially watered down and diluted by allowing the mixing of actual canon and pseudo-canon material. This could lead to individuals unsure of what was original content, since not everyone has played the game since inception (I can still remember the original box and quizzical looks when I explained to people about the game.)

If there indeed such a prevalence of non-canon data that it would be cumbersome from an administrative stand point, flag all original content.

I guess I will go back to trolling and just reading the forums.:rolleyes:

[kgauck]

The original data is hardly being watered down. Much of the stuff people have put up in the last few days (and I exclude my own production) is really, really good. The original data was sparce, barely sketches of realms. A few realms had Players' Secrets written, and those were a very mixed bag.

The strength of a wiki is that a well organized realm description will provide an excellent basis to harmonize a great variety of data and provide varients for a DM to make his own choices.

No matter who the DM is, or who wrote the material, DM's are always selecting some and discarding some. A good wiki organization can provide a DM with high quality material to select from which is coherent even while there is a variety of interpreations, even mutually exclusive ones.

[Thelandrin]

If Enchantment is so looked down upon by Anuireans (and hated even beyond Necromancy), why are there two enchanters in the College of Sorcery? A Khinasi is fair enough, but why also an Anuirean? Why are both female - is this some sort of sexist comment about what women are only good for?

Also, why are two of the true mages unblooded?? That must surely be an error.

[AndrewTall]

The 2 unblooded ones are an illusionist and a diviner - I expect that these are actually magicians not wizards.

And a gender split of male = fighter/guilder, female = wizard/priest is common - likely due to typical views on gender roles. Assuming an even split of ability, warfare issues (brute strength, casual approach to violence, pack mentality, expendability) encourage males to go into fighting roles, leaving these socially male oriented. The remaining females of skill then outnumber males of skill causing other roles to be female dominated. Plus, of course, standard fantasy illustrations tend to go 'lots of armour = men, wispy clothing = female' again encouraging women to dominate wizardly roles.

[Sorontar]

Think of Harry Potter and Art of War..... know thy enemy. If you don't gain knowldege about what you oppose, then you won't be able to fully understand it when it confronts you. So Necro etc have to have experts on the Council of Ten.

As I noted on the [[College of Sorcery]] page, it does seem wierd that there are unblooded members of the Council and all council members are *supposed* to maintain at least one leyline (which is impossible if unblooded). However:

not all the leylines of old are still "active"
the "one per council member" rule may no longer hold
there may be much politics happening within the council
the council no longer has the power it once had
the "unblooded" members may have been more recent additions to the council in order to try and boost the importance of the College. Prior to them, Magicians may not have been considered to be an appropriate part of the College. With the drop in the College's power, the "weakening" in the student requirements may have been aimed at getting further funds and more influence (ie. regency).


Sorontar

[Raesene Andu]

If Enchantment is so looked down upon by Anuireans (and hated even beyond Necromancy), why are there two enchanters in the College of Sorcery? A Khinasi is fair enough, but why also an Anuirean? Why are both female - is this some sort of sexist comment about what women are only good for?

The 10 mages of the council are the leader, then the heads of each of the nine orders of magic. I recommend reading "The Shadow Stone" novel for an excellent background into the college. Of course, it has been changed a bit with the transition to a different setting, but I always thought it was useful as a guide.

Another thing to consider is that the college of sorcery is the only institution of its type anywhere in Cerilia and would draw mages from across the continent eager to study there and while most Anuireans may dislike enchantment magic, that same belief would not be held in other regions.

[Sorontar]

Raesene Andu said:

the college of sorcery is the only institution of its type anywhere in Cerilia

That is a problematic statement that I doubt is going to match the wiki. It might be true in present day Cerilia, but the wiki mentions a magical college in Diemed (Ciliene College of Magic) and I imagine there is one in Khinasi lands (possibly at the Temple of Rilni), given their respect for mages and the Five Oaths. The Anuirean College may have historically been the largest but given its more recent history, that supremacy may be in question. Do the books indicate otherwise?

Sorontar

[AndrewTall]

While the City of Anuire may be only a shadow of its former glory, it is still huge population wise - off hand I can't think of any human province over level 7 anywhere else. As such it is going to dominate in all sorts of areas - and still be a centre of trade, art (it follows the money), science/knowledge (it needs surplus population and money), etc, etc.

Remember how rare wizards are - from recollection 1-200 across all Cerilia, with 70 or so listed as regents leaving very few unaccounted for. The College with 10 (8 per wiki) wizards of high level is likely simply without peer - does any other college have even 10 wizards of any level?

I'd expect that the Khinasi have several centers of magical knowledge and scholarship, the Brecht almost certainly have something, but, frankly, there simply isn't much need for a second 'learn everything about anything' institution which also teaches practical magic. I'd expect that any wizard who really wants to teach (i.e. have a warm dry room, endless library, droit de prof, and so on without any need to actually do anything) will head for the City - anywhere else they'd be expected to do too much in return for their stipend.

As for why Enchanters are overly common, they are much more likely to have high charisma, so likely dominate politically - is the necromancer going to woo votes from the undecided?

[Arjan]

the 3 crowns in the arms seems to be "noble" crowns.. think the "prince crowns" would be more in place

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Polish_Nobility_Crowns.JPG

[Sorontar]

the 3 crowns in the arms seems to be "noble" crowns.. think the "prince crowns" would be more in place

I see your point, but there are various "crowns" that could be used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraldic_crown

There is also the issue of whether the symbol is the royal symbol for the Imperial City, or the city's symbol for its council. Each would have a different helmet atop the arms (depending how strict you follow rules and whether you want old rules or new ones).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmet_%28heraldry%29