The Gorgon

[Sir Tiamat]

Discussion thread for The Gorgon (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/The Gorgon). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Lawgiver]

He's just a weeeeeee bit over powered with the current stats don't you think? He's more powerful than several demi-gods/avatars. I don't mean to be snarky, but was the original boxed set or "Blood Enemies: Abominations" book referenced during the conversion?

[AndrewTall]

He's just a weeeeeee bit over powered with the current stats don't you think? He's more powerful than several demi-gods/avatars. I don't mean to be snarky, but was the original boxed set or "Blood Enemies: Abominations" book referenced during the conversion?

The problem is, in my view, the conversion of multiclassed characters from 2e to 3e. The gorgon as a L20 fighter, L16 mage, L? monster gets very, very, nasty in 3e - and didn't start off as particularly fluffy...

That said the Gorgon is supposed to be more than an avatar - he is only a relatively short step behind the gods themselves, and Cerilia is his home plane. That said you'd need to have a fairly seriously epic campaign to have PC's who could even survive 3 rounds against him much less the dozens of rounds necessary to chew through his hitpoints and spells and personally I'd use him more as a McGuffin than as an actual NPC.

[kgauck]

Yummmm, McGuffins and jam.

[AhemEbanAvani]

well let me put it this way. i stopped playing d and d for a while and came back into the fold during third. there arent many 2nd edition games i play in except for one guy i know where i like his 2nd edition games. Well he was playing in this birthright campaign thingy and i was like ok ill give it a try. So far we have killed the Boar, the Hydra, and the Rage of Seas. we r all about 8th lvl except me im a dual class retired paladin 5 and 8 lvls of wizard with a tourban. Now that we are all powerful and stuff and working for the sultan of Binsada and going to kill the basilisk and the sphinx i hope i asked my DM so hey man when we gonna be powerful enough to fight this lich mage guy and this gorgon guy i keep hearing people in game and out of game qauke about. He laughed this laugh like the time in Greyhawk when we woke up the Tarrasque! he said we had a better chance in our last game of beating up the cirlce of eight.... so this is a note to me this former seeker now mage of avani is going nowhere near the Gorgon crown or this crazy elf he keeps hearing about that u can shoot arrows the size of a ogre at him and they bounce of i mean im a man so anyone named manslayer is right out!




Side note just in case anyone cares im making a clerics prayer book that will be written from the perspective of my paladin of avani that treks around with a Vos wizard that worship rornil, a Vos cleric named eric that worships Sera, and last but not least our Amim (leader) is a Bretch u know fluffy pirate shirts and what not that all worships sera, so ill probly be posting these 3 books first then start working the other gods and mostly just throw them evil god hyms right out. So Hail Sera may your trades be fruitful and your luck pure!

[The Swordgaunt]

Yummmm, McGuffins and jam.

ROFL! McGuffins with red herrings is my personal favorite:rolleyes:

[bbeau22]

Yeah I put the Gorgan down as untouchable. They might have gone a little crazy with his abilities in 3.0 but still, in the end, he should be ultra-powerful and near demi-god being.

Then there is the next tier of bad guys that are extremely tough but might be beatable by a very powerful party. That would include The Serpent, The Magian, Manslayer. But we should be talking about a level 20 CL or close to it.

These characters are built in enemies that the players are going to be forced to deal with for a very long time. As a campaign goes on for years there can be some level of consistancy.

-Brian

[Rowan]

There ought to be ways to weaken the Gorgon before confrontation, or in minor confrontation. I'm a big fan of setting up villains that are just too powerful to confront, but that with care and strategy you can bring down. Methods include stealing or destroying magic items that are part of his power; eliminating allies; placing or using artifacts and items against him which would weaken him (sort of like how undead are weakened in consecrated areas), weakening his realm or holdings/establishing ones against him, inflicting some sort of deific wounds that are slow for him to heal in minor confrontations, find some way to reduce his bloodline or general power, etc.

It should be possible, with focused effort, for a fair-sized group of regents to grow in power sufficiently (boosting their own power in various ways), direct Anuire in conflict against the Gorgon, and weaken him significantly so that future generations can destroy him eventually.

All that said, there are metagame abuses that could bring the Gorgon down pretty quickly, even given his 3e stats. I've talked about them in another thread, but Forcecage, Acid Arrow, Acid Fog, and the Orb spells could do the trick without terribly much difficulty--so long as you can get the Hand of Azrai away from him and prevent teleportation (Shadow Block).

[bbeau22]

Anything can be accomplished with meta-gaming. Lets not forget that a simple ring of acid resistance could reduce the effectivness of that plan of attack pretty quickly.

He still has multiple ways to get himself out of a forcecage. He can teleport. If they have him locked from teleports he has limited wish. If that didn't work he could cast forcecage on himself and make it the kind with no bars and sit and wait out the Dimentional block which only lasts minutes.

I have always felt acid spells are a bit silly, over-powered, and gamebreaking in some cases. I believe anti-magic shell would still stop those any how. If it didn't, then he would have cover from the forcecage bars being many of them might miss because he would also have blur up an running. Don't forget he can also still cast spell out at those pesky wizards.

The situation you have come up with simply could never happen in Cerila. You are asking to have a large force of wizards come across the Gorgan, surprise him, and have him being alone.

-Brian

[Rowan]

Beau, since you decided to engage in my theoretical attack method, I'll defend it further.

Shadow Block lasts for months and prevents all dimensional travel. Limited Wish will not get through it.

Antimagic Sphere has too short a duration to be an effective defense.

An area or targeted dispel magic will take care of a ring of acid resistance, and resistance spells are too short duration as well. Cover wouldn't be much of an issue, as fogs and area effect spells overcome it easily.

Magicians can manage Acid Arrow and Lesser Orb spells. By any theory of elves that assumes that they are more magically-capable and that magic is more common among them, they should be able to manage plenty of 1st-3rd level spellcasters, and a few high enough level ones. Ranged touch attacks are pretty easy to make, even through cover, and especially for high dexterity elves. The ranges on those spells are pretty long. The Gorgon can't cast enough spells in return to effectively counter, and his defensive spells don't last long enough to outlast his foes.

The no-saving-throw, no-spell-resistance area effect or touch attack conjuration spells (not just acid) can overcome any defenses the Gorgon has. They don't really need to surprise him, just engage him in combat.

I have posited this theory before as a reason that the Gorgon does not rampage for long at the head of his armies, and tends to leave the elves alone.

[bbeau22]

I always love these debates. Meta-gaming FTW. I will admit you got quite an advantage simply because you can use every book at your disposal while I am locked into a couple page write up of the Gorgan abilities.

By the rules you are right, but I feel if you have to take two of the most game breaking abilities to pin that Gorgan down. I hate forcecage. There should be no spell that can completely trap an individual with no save, no spell resistance nothing to stop it. It can be completely over-used by players and ruin good incounters. As you have pointed out, you could almost stop a god with a couple of spells.

I am of the same feeling with Acid spells. 3.5 came up with great idea of magic casters over coming spell resistance to hit. AC to combat physical damage. Then acid spells just ignore all the rules and do what they want. If any mage didn't have at least a few acid spells he is a fool.

As for him not invading the elves I have always felt that that Siebharrinn might have something to do with it. He made many units of the Gorgan simply dissappear on his last invasion of the elven land. One of the most power wizards in the land that has been changed into some sort of undead Ghost or Lich. There are easier targets.

For Anuire he needed more blood. If he killed every single blooded character then he would be topped out. By letting lines continue to pass on he can always come back 10-20 years later and cultivate again. As long as he left someone alive to continue to pass on the bloodline of each ruling family there would be another child to take from in 20-30 years.

-Brian

[Rowan]

I wholeheartedly agree with the brokenness of many 3.5 rules that are hopefully being addressed in 4e. (by the way, only the Orb spells I mentioned come from a different book, and they are all energy types--any conjuration spell has the no save no SR properties).

However, I also agree with the original posters that the Gorgon should not be undefeatable, implicit in your objections to my strategies around his stats :)

[bbeau22]

I like the idea of him being tied to his land. If you go to invade you are in a heap of trouble. But he is careful about when he leaves his country and goes back so a force that is able to defeat him can't be mustered in time.

You could do things like lower his caster level when he isn't in a domain that he controls the source.

You could also make Kingstopper tied to his land. I believe it is the sword that struck down Michael Roele and perhaps it had a permenant effect on it tying it to his source or domain.

Just some thoughts.

-BB

[Green Knight]

He's just a weeeeeee bit over powered with the current stats don't you think? He's more powerful than several demi-gods/avatars. I don't mean to be snarky, but was the original boxed set or "Blood Enemies: Abominations" book referenced during the conversion?

The Gorgon should certainly be powerful...but isn't this a bit over the top? If I recall he was a Ftr25/Mage 16...which should give him about CR 30...but does he REALLY need to be this tough???

[kgauck]

One nice thing they have done for class builds in some of the books is to include a character build at 5th, 10th, and 15th levels, and I can see where it would be useful to have a 20th, 25th, and 30th level version of the Gorgon, not because he changes, but because for some campaigns the 20th level version will make him beyond powerful, while other campaigns will require he be 30th level to keep the party at bay.

[Green Knight]

Sounds like a great idea to me...

[AndrewTall]

Sounds like a great idea to me...

I thought about doing something like this on the wiki, the trouble is the sheer number of feats, etc available now - do you stick to core rulebook feats? Do you use just WTOC feats, etc.

Another thought was that with 10-20 fighter levels, 10-20 awnie and 16 mage levels then it is very hard to keep him 'touchable' to mortals - frankly most mortals won't have 16 levels at all and giving him 16 extra levels puts him well out of reach even of champions under the 3.5e system.

My thought was that the mage levels are in any event superfluous - any need for magic can be provided by a minion and avoids him getting 16 levels or so of extra hitpoints, saves, etc. The drop also means that you can drop his intelligence to 10-14 - the most dangerous part of any long term foe is intelligence and cutting the Gorgon could be used to explain his slow pace - he is thinking through plans throughoughly to avoid being outsmarted

I then figured that good levels would be battle of mount deismaar, return to Cerilia, fall of the empire and current cerilia. (To explain the early history of the empire I assume that Raesene fled the battle with the Vos, and after he began to take on awnsheghlien traits fled to Aduria and that made these seem 'key points' in his development).

I figured that at Deismaar he would be a fairly high level fighter - say L15 (possibly with the odd level noble not fighter), on his return I'd make him L20, at the fall of the empire L25 and current day L30 (obvious rounding but it keeps it simple) with the majority of later levels being awnsheghlien in nature.

The issue then is should the Gorgon be built as 'general' or 'champion' in feat, skill, ability, etc selection. Personally I see him as a champion who wants to be a general/great leader but is hampered by personal failings and who has, despite his age, a very human/mortal view on life (for example I expect he has little understanding of the extent of the dwarven tunnels in Mur Kilad).

[ploesch]

Because of the Gogon's history, I would say he should be no less than 20th level to start, and then have him level if need be to continue to be a challenge for the PC's. He shouldn't have a 5th or 10th level version since he should be something the PC's would try to avoid until they were powerful enough.

[Green Knight]

I'd advocate sticking with just the core rules...and maybe adding something from other sourcebooks if it seems very appropriate...hopefully that little extra is OGL and can be pasted along with the character description.

Not sure the Gorgon HAS to have exactly 16 wizard lvls...I'd say that only a very high-powered version would need that.

[bbeau22]

I always felt a good way to keep his power down somewhat is to give him level in classes that cover two of his original classes at once. Eldrith Knight comes to mind that would cover warrior and wizard although not perfect.

All we really have to make sure is that he can cast level 8 spells. However he gets there is fine by me. He was a great warrior and wizard ... what is wrong with mixing the classes into one?

-BB

[AndrewTall]

All we really have to make sure is that he can cast level 8 spells. However he gets there is fine by me. He was a great warrior and wizard ... what is wrong with mixing the classes into one?
-BB

I'm missing something, why does he need to be able to cast L8 spells? Casting L8 spells puts you in the top 10 tough guys in BR even without any fighter skill. L30ish fighter type should be more than enough for anyone surely without needing spell casting abilities on top.

I'd see the 2e fighter+mage as just 'best and baddest at everything' syndrome rather than designed to give any benefit to the setting - at present in 2e or BRCS not even the Raven, Magian, Rhoubhe, Serpent, et al come close to him - he is better than them at both fighting and at magic. An omni-foe is great as a computer level boss, but lousy as an ongoing story and plot generator.

If the Gorgon ignores / distrusts magic to at least some degree then that gives him a necessary vulnerability that could be exploited, similarly a magic wielding minion can be used for plots against other minions or even against the Gorgon adding to the potential for grand plans to be undermined.

I would suggest that in line with some other awnie's the Gorgon a) doesn't suffer fools at all let alone gladly and b) considers anyone who fails to show 'the proper respect' a fool. So a traveler can certainly try and pass his lands, but Haelyn protect the fool diplomatic who forgets to address him as Prince Raesene or 'Your highness', or the poor merchant who pays the wrong level of bribe to the toll-keepers - but for the daring there is great potential reward in passing the Gorgon's lands.

[kgauck]

An omni-foe is great as a computer level boss, but lousy as an ongoing story and plot generator.

I've been moving in the opposite direction because of BR. This might fit under the what BR means to me, but I think the untouchable villain is more interesting than the "big boss" model. The computer games which end in a big boss are just carrying on the old dungeon convention that puts the dragon at the end of the dungeon.

But I think the notion of clearing a dungeon is not a good model for a political game. One does not end the War of the Spanish succession, the capstone of the many wars of Louis XIV, by confronting Louis and defeating him in one final great combat. France was thwarted repeatedly, and I think you can make a case that they really lost. But France was not destroyed by Marlborough and Eugene (though Marlborough never lost a battle and decisively destroyed entire French armies twice), and Louis was never in anything like personal jeapordy.

In a D&D version of some wars, there is a very game solution to just find the great rival, fight your way to him, and defeat him. So I think that an omni-foe is a good source of stories and adventures, becuase instead of just fighting your way to the great rival, one is limited to fighting his armies, spies, influence, and actions, while the great rival, being an omni-foe, is untouchable.

The thing to abandon is the notion that any ruler acts directly, rather than having everyone act through subordinates.

[Rowan]

I don't have much of a problem with the Gorgon being pretty much untouchable to a group of adventurers. The problem comes in with the D&D adventure-level stats being carried out to domain level realities where he could lead the vanguard of an army and lay waste to entire armies of foes personally. It does indeed create the question of why he hasn't personally conquered everything, or consumed the bloodlines of every high bloodline regent in the last years of their lives--as some sort of reaper that comes in the last decades of every old regent's life to harvest.

[kgauck]

He could lead the vanguard of an army and lay waste to entire armies of foes personally.

It violates the fundamental principle that any ruler acts through subordinates, rather than having them act directly. Rulers don't do it because its terribly ineffecient. From my court, or capital, I can resolve many problems, but once I leave to go smite an enemy, the business of government stops. Mega realms (like the Gorgon and his Crown, Markazor, Mur-Kilad, Kiergard, or Avanil and his collection of vassals) should produce so many random events (or domain incidents) that the ruler is always busy resolving these. Darien Avan might run a decentralized mega realm in which vassals have authority to solve problems on their own, but the Gorgon, with his own will to absolute power, tries to rule himself, so cannot go around doing anything for fear that cracks in his realm will cause some un-addressed problem to spiral out of control. In this sense, the Gorgon is like any other tyrant- unable to let the realm out of his sight.

So while the Gorgon acts directly at home, he must rely on subordinates to carry out his plots on the borders or in your realm, while the PC's can chose to stay home and send subordinates out, or go out and leave subordinates at home, but no one can do it all themselves.

[geeman]

At 10:19 PM 3/29/2008, Rowan wrote:

>It does indeed create the question of why he hasn`t personally
>conquered everything, or consumed the bloodlines of every high
>bloodline regent in the last years of their lives--as some sort of
>reaper that comes in the last decades of every old regent`s life to harvest.

I think the answer to the question of why the Gorgon hasn`t conquered
Cerilia can at least in part be combined with the other thread having
to do with what the Gorgon does with his afternoons.

First off, an objective look at the domain rules that exist with
bloodline will reveal that there is a practical maximum size for a
regent`s domain. Often domain size is pegged at bloodline score, but
in truth there are just too many things to do at the domain level of
play for a regent to control a domain that has provinces and holdings
much over 60 or 70 levels. Within such a domain things start to get
missed, random events (should) start piling up, and the size of the
domain itself puts it on the borders or within contact of other
domains, meaning the competition with other regents/domains limits its size.

This is extremely important for the Gorgon because _he does not trust
his vassals_. He cannot or won`t create a web of vassalage
agreements that would appear to have been the basis of the original
Anuirean Empire. Now, it is possible that this is a
personality/trust issue on his part, but even if he were to create a
vast system of vassals can we really imagine it reaching the size of
the original empire without various forms of inner and external
strive taking it apart? The Gorgon is the absolute ruler of his
domain, but his domain has reached the maximum size it can under only
his control, and he can`t trust others to run a domain in his
name. They might rebel or they might simply act on their own in ways
that the Gorgon cannot abide.

We see in this perspective the answer to the question about the
Gorgon`s time. His time is spent managing his own domain of diverse,
unruly and obstinate subjects. The racial and cultural diversity in
the GC and his tributaries is very broad and they remain united
because of the influence of the Gorgon, but does that influence come
without effort or time spent on his part? I would argue that it
requires constant maintenance and supervision. He cannot afford them
leaway or they will begin to exert their diversity and independence,
so every little decision needs to meet his approval. That`s a lot of
time spent in audiences, especially when one is as strict as the
Gorgon. People do not speak directly to such a person, so his
interactions are likely filled with the most abject of formalities
and restraints.

Consider also the problems the Gorgon has with external
influences. As worried as other Cerilian realms are about incursions
by the Gorgon, it is in reality the Gorgon who is surrounded by
enemies on all sides, any of whom could attack him with political and
social impunity. No Cerilian realm (that isn`t under the Gorgon`s
thumb) is going to take umbrage with anyone who manages to put one
over on the Gorgon. In fact, they`d be lauded. Of course, very few
domains can take on the Gorgon directly, but his time would be
considerably consumed by constant, low-level attacks and
annoyances. He`s the biggest gun in the Old West, if you will, and
every upstart who wants to make a name for himself, in addition to
experience gunmen who might take more careful aim, will be out for
him. Taking on the Gorgon would be a badge of honor for any regent
and he must deal with such predations constantly.

Then there are issues having to do with the Gorgon`s personality and
tragedy. See, I view the Gorgon as a classic tragic hero. That is,
a hero who is in almost every way exceptional and unbeatable, but due
to some fault of his personality he is ultimately a failure. In the
Gorgon`s case, he was once a man who by accident of birth was not in
line for the throne. Bear in mind when you consider such a thing
that he`d not have been the first bastard to take over a
kingdom. Issues of legitimacy aren`t really the most important
consideration in inheritance when it comes right down to it. When it
comes to royalty in particular, legitimacy is much like history: it
is determined by the victors. Raesene as the Anuirean emperor could
easily be justified compared to any number of kings who have ruled
much larger or smaller nations. Yet he did not. As a follower of
Azrai at Deismaar, he might easily have risen beyond anything as
lowly as an emperor. He could have been a god, maybe even the direct
successor to the Shadowlord himself. Do the incarnations of Kreisha
or Belenik really seem like they are more directly related to Azrai
than the wizard/warrior who became the Gorgon? Raesene has at least
as much in common with Azrai as those two, and I`d argue he had
more. Instead, he was passed over--either through some divine
process or not, who can say?

So the Gorgon has been faced throughout his long history with the
fact that he`s failed to be recognized and rewarded by his family,
his people or even his god. Fifteen centuries of not being good
enough has to have an effect on a person`s ultimate ego and sense of
achievement, and I can`t help but think that is the source of the
Gorgon`s true inability to conquer Cerilia. He suspects (and on some
level may be right) that he`s simply not good enough to unite Anuire,
or form anything that rivals the Anuirean Empire.

Gary

[ThatSeanGuy]

One interesting thing I read about in the 4E previews was how they wanted to make things like demon lords and archdevils "boss monsters"-evils that could be active in individual campaigns, and that epic tier players could meet and, eventually, defeat.

Do you folks think the Gorgon and his fellow "Big damn deal." awnshaeghen should serve this role?

[kgauck]

The problem with this appoach is to balance how it is that one might fight a demon-lord, or the Gorgon, and still be only a great captain and not a one-man army. My current reluctance to see players powerful enough to face the Gorgon is that once they are that powerful the power of their realm is less significant than their personal power.

As a foundational point of BR, I think realms should be more powerful than individuals by orders of magnitude.

[Rowan]

You guys are right, the Gorgon should have his hands full holding his realm together. I'm still not sure he can't be a reaper of every old person with a bloodline, though...

The biggest problem that D&D has is in realizing that even a great warrior is vulnerable to large numbers of foes. Every reasonable book you read has the most mighty of heroes fearing being significantly outnumbered.

One way to accomodate this is to realize that once you have more than one foe against you, your attention is massively divided and your edge against the opponent one on one rapidly diminishes. Existing rules that can be applied here are to let every foe beyond the first give an automatic Aid Another to every other ally (+2 to hit or +2 to AC), accumulating. Flanking should be a much bigger deal, automatically giving 4e combat advantage and +4 to hit, a free attack of opportunity, and free +1d6 sneak attack damage.

If you also make Damage Reduction either overcomeable by sufficiently high attack rolls or sufficient amounts of damage suffered every round, then even the Gorgon is vulnerable to an army, as he should be.

The easiest way of saying this without having to get into the rules nitty-gritty is that no matter what level your PC's or NPC's are, they can be killed on the battlefield. If they really want to try it, let the units make attacks that no DR or SR or anything can defend against, and translate a "hit" into 50 hit points or something.

[Rowan]

And Gary, you almost make me weep for the Gorgon. Though yes, I've realized much of that before, you put it in perspective nicely.

I have thought that it would be pretty fun to play a scenario where the Gorgon is actually more LN and is actually pretty much the best ruler out there, and would even be a great next emperor. It's just that keeping in line all those monstrous cultures and so forth requires some brutality. In this scenario he'd be very civil and even honorable, you could treat with him (though the various human cultures would still shun you and him), and he'd be trying to work his way back into respect and eventual power, realizing that somehow he has to shed his monstrous skin first--hence his previous attempts at honorable combat with scions whose bloodlines he hoped might overwhelm his own derivation, his accumulation of tighmaevril weapons, his seeking of magic, etc. He just can't bring himself to worship the good gods--people he knew personally and were his lessers in life.I realize that you have to rewrite some source material for this, but it's not as extensive or far-fetched as it might initially seem.

Perhaps defeating eghrsheghlien in honorable combat with a tighmaevril weapon (or at the end of their natural lives) and the accumulation of enough sielshegh gems and the casting of proper clerical spells might be his next plot to reverse his bloodline. Or perhaps capturing the Selehr could do it. Or perhaps he has to bleed himself out and transfer his bloodline to something else, then absorb a new human bloodline from somewhere (but it would need to be quite powerful to satisfy him--and then there would be the issue of destroying the item or polluting the land with an Azrai bloodline of 200+).

[kgauck]

he'd be trying to work his way back into respect and eventual power, realizing that somehow he has to shed his monstrous skin first

Combine this trope with a LE Chamberlain and its only at the end of the campaign when the Gorgon is dead and the Chamberlain has swept away his last obstacle to siezing the throne himself do the PC's finally realize that Raesne was the good guy and that the Chamberlain tricked them into combating him and finally destroying him.


I realize that you have to rewrite some source material for this, but it's not as extensive or far-fetched as it might initially seem.
Subverting the themes and tropes is far less harmful to the setting than it is to just ignore them and play a different game altogether (such as FR-ization). Something like this, which is just simple inversion of who the heroes are, is still very much a dedication to the setting.

[Green Knight]

The problem with this appoach is to balance how it is that one might fight a demon-lord, or the Gorgon, and still be only a great captain and not a one-man army. My current reluctance to see players powerful enough to face the Gorgon is that once they are that powerful the power of their realm is less significant than their personal power.

As a foundational point of BR, I think realms should be more powerful than individuals by orders of magnitude.

This is an important matter to me also. Characters should be able to be powerful and heroic...but no one being should be comparable to a domain in power.

[Green Knight]

I'm missing something, why does he need to be able to cast L8 spells? Casting L8 spells puts you in the top 10 tough guys in BR even without any fighter skill. L30ish fighter type should be more than enough for anyone surely without needing spell casting abilities on top.

I'd see the 2e fighter+mage as just 'best and baddest at everything' syndrome rather than designed to give any benefit to the setting - at present in 2e or BRCS not even the Raven, Magian, Rhoubhe, Serpent, et al come close to him - he is better than them at both fighting and at magic. An omni-foe is great as a computer level boss, but lousy as an ongoing story and plot generator.

If the Gorgon ignores / distrusts magic to at least some degree then that gives him a necessary vulnerability that could be exploited, similarly a magic wielding minion can be used for plots against other minions or even against the Gorgon adding to the potential for grand plans to be undermined.

I would suggest that in line with some other awnie's the Gorgon a) doesn't suffer fools at all let alone gladly and b) considers anyone who fails to show 'the proper respect' a fool. So a traveler can certainly try and pass his lands, but Haelyn protect the fool diplomatic who forgets to address him as Prince Raesene or 'Your highness', or the poor merchant who pays the wrong level of bribe to the toll-keepers - but for the daring there is great potential reward in passing the Gorgon's lands.

To me the Gorgon is a Warrior first and foremost, and the fighter/mage mini-Sauron concept does not sit very well with me. What I did in my campaign was introduce the Warlock (from the Warlock of the Stonecrows - not the actual scenarior, but the character). Following a bad turn of event for his father, he used the opportunity to flee west and set up shop in Anuire (first in Mhoried and later in the Five Peaks).

As it turned out, it was the gorgon's son that had been nurturing the Gorgon's sources. And HE, not the Gorgon, was the skilled wizard. Indeed, the Gorgon had only some modest magical skills, certainly nothing close to Lvl 8 spell capability.

[ericthecleric]

There are some excellent ideas in this thread, and in the other one, too! Great work guys!

[Lawgiver]

One other important factor is the Gorgon is not alone. There should be almost no way for PCs to ever engage him in combat having not already fought some manner of "lackeys" along the way or encounter him without a few lieutenants near him.
"One does not simply walk into Mordor..."

[bbeau22]

I just re-read all of the information about the Gorgan in the blood enemies. I always assumed he was a high level mage but it mentions nothing in that book. How did people come up with being a level 16 wizard? It does say he is the realms only mage ... but nothing else.

Was it listed somewhere else?

He should be a phyical unstoppable force. Not a single creature or person in Cerilia should be able to stand toe to toe with him. His natural damage reduction and spell resistance should make most wizards uneasy about facing him also. The magic items he carries puts him over the top in almost any encounter.

Eldritch Knight makes even more sense now. The old book basicly has him listed as a level 25 fighter. If we gave him 14 levels of fighter, 1 level of wizard and then 10 levels of Eldritch Knight you could have a powerful warrior/wizard that is an unbelievable warrior and can cast 6 level spells.

This makes him beatable by a very high level group in the correct situation. He can cast any realm spell as needed.

If we make him tough but beatable, then it allows the DM to either make him unbeatable with magic and allies with him at all times or beatable depending on the DM wishes. I guess in the end giving the DM the option is the best. As of now the rules on him give them no option.

[kgauck]

Was it listed somewhere else?

The Gorgon's card that came with the original boxed set lists him as a Fighter 25/Wizard 16.

The version in Blood Enemies doesn't list a class and level the way the card does, it only mentions that the Gorgon saves as a F 25. However it does list his sources in the Crown. So while Blood Enemies is silent in the question of the Gorgon's wizard powers, it doesn't actually clarrify that this later entry is a retcon. And the source listing suggests the wizard levels are not forgotten, just not mentioned.

[Lawgiver]

What level/class do you think the Gorgon was before his "fall from grace" and beginning to become an awnsheglien?

I'm almost of the opinion that he was purely a fighter c.9-12 with <= 3 levels as a mage (if any) before his fall and embraced magic to attempt to reverse his condition and try to find a "cure" for his curse.

[bbeau22]

Ahhh the card. I don't have a copy of that so it would explain it. Now that you mention it, I do remember seeing it many years ago.

BB

[geeman]

At 11:49 AM 4/1/2008, Lawgiver wrote:

>What level/class do you think the Gorgon was before his "fall from
>grace" and beginning to become an awnsheglien?

Well, first off, to continue the metaphor: If the Gorgon finally
"fell" it was probably in killing Michael Roele, but he`d been
teetering for nearly two thousand years.... Or maybe he`d been
falling ever since Deismaar. He was in free fall since he "jumped"
at Deismaar, and his duel with MR was simply when he finally hit the ground.

If one assumes Raesene dabbled in magic before Deismaar (which I
think he did) then it should probably be noted that we need some sort
of mechanic to allow magicians who become blooded to "turn in" their
magician levels for wizard levels, or the classes should be more
directly related so as to justify a switch. There is at least one
serious example of this happening in the BR materials: Rogr
Aglondier. If it can happen with a minor Anuirean lord then there`s
a pretty good shot the bastard son of the emporer and champion of
Azrai could turn in magicial levels for wizard levels after his
appearance at the seminal event of the setting`s history....

That said, the Gorgon is mostly a fighter, but I think he tinkered
with the "dark arts" long before he mastered magic. It`s hard for me
to believe that Azrai`s champion was a fighter alone. Or, rather,
that`s what Belenik was for. Raesene`s background leads me to
suspect he`d engage in anything that furthered his ends, led to an
effacement of his background and circumstances and/or increased his
power. In that context, he`d be attracted to the more destructive
aspects of magic from an early age. However, as humans were barred
from "true magic" before Deismaar he`d not bother with it that much
since there is a well-known and demonstrable dead end.

So: The Gorgon is described as a F/W 25/16 in the original
materials. Personally, I think that`s a pretty good ratio to
describe his levels throughout most of his existence. If we were to
assume he was about a 12 level fighter at Deismaar (which puts him on
par with several of the most powerful fighters in the current
materials like Boeruine and Avan) then he`d have been an 8th level
spellcaster. However, because he`d not be interested in magic beyond
4th level (as non-blooded characters can`t cast 3rd level spells)
he`d probably not have bothered beyond that, so I`d skew his levels
before Deismaar in favor of fighter levels. That`s make him a W/F
16/4. In 2e, of course, character levels didn`t require stacked XP,
so that investment in 4 wizard levels would have been a pretty minor
investment. After Deismaar he`d have been very interested in the
dark arts for various reasons, mostly having to do with power, so
he`d have focused on that until the ratio of his levels was more in
line with his current ratio.

There is one issue to note about the Gorgon`s levels: In 2e, the dual
classing rules didn`t allow characters to switch back and
forth. Once one stopped progressing in a class in favor of another
that was it. No more levels in the original class. That`d mean that
the Gorgon had to get to 25th level as a fighter, stop taking fighter
levels, and dedicate the rest of his time to wizardry. However, the
BR rules and background materials often ignored such restrictions,
and we have a much more sensible way of doing such things in 3e+. If
one were to take that as the way he progress, though, he`d have been
a pure fighter before and probably after Deismaar until he reached
25th level then switched.

Gary

[geeman]

At 10:39 AM 4/1/2008, kgauck wrote:

>The version in Blood Enemies doesn`t list a class and level the way
>the card does, it only mentions that the Gorgon saves as a F 25.
>However it does list his sources in the Crown. So while Blood
>Enemies is silent in the question of the Gorgon`s wizard powers, it
>doesn`t actually clarrify that this later entry is a retcon. And the
>source listing suggests the wizard levels are not forgotten, just
>not mentioned.

I think it`s good to note that the saving throws for a 25th level
fighter under the 2e rules (which used a table not a progression, and
multi-/dual-classed characters chose which was superior) were all
superior to those of a wizard, so listing his wizard levels under
that part of his description would not have been necessary.

They do ignore his spell list, which other BE character descriptions
include, despite including his source levels.... Meh, it`s a
muddle. Like anything else, DMs should decide for
themselves. Personally, I think making him a pure fighter leaves him
vulnerable to magic on several levels, which is good enough reason to
explain his interest in magic in the first place, so I prefer the
original character description.

Gary

[AndrewTall]

Personally, I think making him a pure fighter leaves him
vulnerable to magic on several levels, which is good enough reason to
explain his interest in magic in the first place, so I prefer the
original character description.
Gary

With L25 + awnie monster level saves he'd only be vulnerable to a relatively small amount of magic while his hitpoints soak the damaging spells - experience and intelligence should cover dealing with illusions and charms, it does make him quite likely to tolerate at least one powerful lieutenant though so I'd see the need from a 'lack of magic' - and I wouldn't see it as a huge need - as a benefit.

[bbeau22]

At 10:39 AM 4/1/2008, kgauck wrote:

>The version in Blood Enemies doesn`t list a class and level the way
>the card does, it only mentions that the Gorgon saves as a F 25.
>However it does list his sources in the Crown. So while Blood
>Enemies is silent in the question of the Gorgon`s wizard powers, it
>doesn`t actually clarrify that this later entry is a retcon. And the
>source listing suggests the wizard levels are not forgotten, just
>not mentioned.

I think it`s good to note that the saving throws for a 25th level
fighter under the 2e rules (which used a table not a progression, and
multi-/dual-classed characters chose which was superior) were all
superior to those of a wizard, so listing his wizard levels under
that part of his description would not have been necessary.

They do ignore his spell list, which other BE character descriptions
include, despite including his source levels.... Meh, it`s a
muddle. Like anything else, DMs should decide for
themselves. Personally, I think making him a pure fighter leaves him
vulnerable to magic on several levels, which is good enough reason to
explain his interest in magic in the first place, so I prefer the
original character description.

Gary


I guess the problem comes in is that his abilities and powers don't translate very well into 3rd edition. Taken as face value you are looking at a god-like character. The system of 3rd edition I feel starts to break down in the epic levels and when you talking about going 21 levels over level 20 and then add in blood abilities to up his ECL even more.

There are a few ways to go about his current condition.

1. Give him all the levels and make him unbeatable by any normal means.
2. Give him levels in classes that cover both his needs as a warrior and wizard.
3. Create a new class for him that allows for spells and warrior abilites.
4. Reduce his wizard background but leave enough in to make sense of his controlling source.
5. Remove most of his wizard levels but give him monsterous levels that give many spell-like abilities. Most would mistake him as a wizard.

I think he certainly should be powerful enough to get into epic levels ... but 21 epic levels is pushing it a bit. Now that I have put it out there I think monsterous levels might be a great way to go. Demons often get many spell-like abilities that resemble a wizard but still are powerful warriors.

I will look at the monsterous manual for any good matches.

[ploesch]

I'd think that Azrai may have offered Raeseane True Magic to tempt him into becoming a follower. So we could assume with Godly influence normal 2E rules could be avoided. Perhaps he even became some type of demi human before Deismar from the godly influence, and so was able to dual class.

Just some thoughts on how to warp the rules to fit how you'd like it to work in your campaign.

[geeman]

At 05:43 PM 4/1/2008, ploesch wrote:

>I`d think that Azrai may have offered Raeseane True Magic to tempt
>him into becoming a follower. So we could assume with Godly
>influence normal 2E rules could be avoided. Perhaps he even became
>some type of demi human before Deismar from the godly influence, and
>so was able to dual class.

We do have Azrai creating the Lost before Deismaar, and they could
cast more than the typical amount of magician magic, so Azrai could
easily have done something like that. Raesene isn`t mentioned as
being one of the Lost, but there`s not any particular reason why he
wouldn`t have given his Champion some comparable power.

It is still 1,500 years since Deismaar, and the Gorgon has to have
been doing something with that time. A few fighter and wizard levels
is as appropriate as anything else.

Gary

[ThatSeanGuy]

As an alternative: Maybe the Gorgon's source holdings could represent his control over the wizards in his domain. Like, those he allows to use them can cast realm spells, but all of the regency, gold gain, and so on goes directly to Big G.

This'd be a ready source of evil wizards to plague PCs with, explain the Gorgon's wizardly interests without making him yet another damn fighter-wizard, and give the Gorgon access to a resource without total mastery over it, thus giving him the motivation of wanting to expand his sorcerous assets.