Speaking of Shadow Stone

[morgramen]

Has anyone crafted some juicy material on them? I believe there was more than one wasn't there?

[Raesene Andu]

I think in the novel, the stone was referred to as THE Shadow Stone, a major artefact that Alies destroyed. However, I have always assumed that if you create one powerful object, someone is going to come along and create more, so using that as a base, I'm working on creating info for them.

Basically, they are artefacts, relatively unremarkable in shape or form, just dull grey rocks, but they possess the power to drain a person's lifeforce and then use that lifeforce to power a mage's spells. I'm still working on the details, but I will post the description when I complete it.

[geeman]

3 +0200, Ariadne wrote:



> If you ask me, we should NOT buy the 3.5 Edition, but wait till the 4.0.

> Three years are gone very quickly...



Heh. That`s quite true. I`ll probably pick them up, though. $100 for 3

years is about what one would pay for a subscription to maybe two or three

magazines give or take. Though I do find the need to spend this particular

$100 a little questionable, I`m not finding it so outrageous as to be a

complete waste. It`s not like tickets to a boy band concert or money given

to a political candidate....



As BR fans, of course, there is the little annoyance that it makes the work

of our intrepid update team out of date very quickly. The playtest, of

course, is just that: a playtest, so any 3.5 updates can accompany a new

revision, but it seems like it would be a good idea for there to be a 3.5

playtest before the official "official" version.... Like many folks out

there in the BR wonderland, I personally look at all this kind of thing as

source material and will take and leave whatever I want, but I can

understand why it might strike many people as being an annoying situation

in which nothing ever seems to get finalized.



When it comes to MC`s review, I disagreed with more of it than I agreed

with. I don`t think "subtle" changes are really all that much of a

problem, particularly since many of them are the kind of "global, systemic

changes" that he and his crew went for--but then didn`t completely

implement. A standard naming scheme for spells, for instance, is a good

idea. The complaint about subtle changes being bad seems to contradict in

large part his earlier suggestion on what the purpose of a revision

is. The revisions to various spells similarly seem like a good idea--at

least all of the ones that were mentioned. Generally, I have a bit more

faith in the ability of the people in the hobby to deal with the minor

changes in the system. At least, those inclined to memorize such things

won`t have any more trouble with this edition than any previous one.



He does make a few good points, however. While I think he may have focused

a bit too closely on the combat chapter reading like a miniatures game (a

process that his 3.0 version really endorsed, BTW) I do agree that we need

some sort of guidelines for how to play D&D combat without a table top. I

used to play just about anyplace and at anytime. It`s much more difficult

to play in the backseat of a car on a long road trip or while otherwise

away from home than it used to be. Being able to conduct combat "on the

fly" is a distinct advantage of a RPG and something that WotC has largely

skipped out on. There were other things he is definitely right on, but

they`re too many to count.



"Taking levels of a prestige class now apparently forces you to pay

multiclassing XP costs. Whether intentionally or by accident, the prestige

class chapter no longer states that they are free of this cost." That`s a

pretty big deal there, and given the amount of debate that the multi-class

penalty cost stuff has caused in the past amongst BRers it might spark more.



I did find it very amusing that he commented that there is "Still no good

guidelines for creating prestige classes, just more of them in the

DMG." That`s one of my pet peeves as well, though it does strike me as an

ironic comment given that he`s the gent who apparently penned a lot of that

chapter in 3e and let the original genie out of the bottle. The prestige

class system in many ways has just got a more serious version of the more

generalized ad hoc design philosophy that went into the standard class

system, and this is something that the designers seem loathe to address. I

do like it when they show us a peek "behind the curtain" but what we really

need to do is whip aside the curtain, and goose the little man pulling the

levers. Maybe even push him aside and start looking at the gears he`s

manipulating. I`m guessing they don`t because in that direction lies a

methodology that will ultimately lead to fewer texts since it would come to

a resolved "perfected" system sooner or later. That is, one that the

methodology reaches a sort of penultimate, "finished" state--a process that

most folks could probably point out in other RPGs. Some systems eventually

reach a point of finality in which the mechanics have had about as much

tweaking as they can handle and the game either fades away or goes through

a dramatic change that amounts to a complete alteration of the basic

premises of the original mechanics. Traveller is probably the most obvious

example of the latter transformation. That might just be my own little

bunch of not-so-tasty grapes, since I want a system of character class

design that could be used for any D20 incarnation not just D&D. Whenever I

complain about D&D`s class system somebody jumps up my butt like there`s a

golden tapeworm that grants wishes up there or something, so I`ll leave it

at that.



In a like manner I think several of the changes to magic item creation are

not a big deal... and might be "a good idea" in many cases. He does

mention several changes to the cost of magic items, but there still does

not appear to be a very intelligently thought out or articulated system of

describing magic item creation, however, and that`s something that really

bugs me. Ditto for the spell level system and spell creation. The decade

old Dragon article "Spell Law" is still the best and most thought out

articulation of the magic system extant. That`s a crying shame IMO, and

something that makes about as much sense as a Mexican screen door on a

Chinese submarine in a Frenchman`s bathtub crewed by Amish warriors trying

to find the lost city of Atlantis. It shows the systemic problem with the

worst aspect of D&D--the magic system that fell out of the lopsided pinball

machine that is Gary Gygax`s brain sometime in the late 70`s and still has

not been seriously revised since. (Please excuse the rococo prose,

discussing the magic system of D&D always inspires zany metaphors....)



Lastly, it might be just me but despite his paragraph on "sour grapes" much

of his review really did read like it was sour grapes. Maybe it was the

comments on who is or isn`t working there anymore or some of the complaints

that really amounted to mere quibbles leading to much larger and

not-so-well supported conclusions about "master" of the game and the

ability of afficianados to participate well, but most of that didn`t really

ring true IMO.



My problem with the issues regarding how D&D 3.5 is treating things like

half-elves and gnomes is that such things eventually bleed into campaign

material like BR. "D&D does it, therefore BR should mirror that" seems to

be thinking espoused by many folks who mistake "cant" for "can`t" when it

comes to changing things for a specific setting. Such things spark much

commentary on campaign specific lists. They certainly have around here,

and we`ll probably have to revisit the issue in 3.5 since so many things

better suited to Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk appear to be right there in

the core texts. Again. Becoming a dragon disciple, for instance, is

apparently right there in the core rulebooks now and available to sorcerers

through that character class`s color text that connects them up with

dragons, so that (or similar things) will probably need to be addressed, no

matter how obviously such a prestige class is inappropriate for BR.



We`ll just have to wait and see,

Gary

[doom]

at 07:22:22PM +0200, Osprey wrote:

>
The goal seems to be more of a money thing than for lucky

> group of gamers employed by a company to write creatively

> and make new ideas come to life.

>

> TSR is engulfed by WOTC, who is then swallowed by Hasbro...

> At each step, the pressure for profit grows, and the wallets

> of loyal fans suffer. :(



Actually, I`m not certain that I agree. For one thing, no one`s wallet

has to suffer at all. The entire 3.5 PH, DMG, and MM are available,

free of charge, via the 3.5 d20 SRD

(http://www.wizards.com/D20/article.asp?x=srd35). If you haven`t

downloaded the SRD, do so! The SRD includes everything from character

classes to magic items, epic levels to planes, and spells to psioncs.

There isn`t any _need_ for anyone to purchase the 3.5 books - the

important material is all available free.



I, for one, am more than willing to pay the fairly low cost (less than

$60, including shipping from gameoutfitter.com) for the three 3.5 books

primarily to cast my vote _in favor_ of WotC producing exactly this

sort of work. 3.5 addresses many issues that everyone has made

houserules on and the "official" update helps address issues in a

uniform enough fashion that everyone can share/use ideas from other

players easily. For instance, we`ll now be able to incorporate into

the d20 Birthright Rulebook the specific planar terminology that

has been developed by WotC. It was available before (in the Manual

of the Planes), but now has been specificly including in the SRD, and

thus we can use it without concerns over copyright issues. In short,

I think that WotC`s buisness plan for D&D (even under Hasbro) is

one in which everyone (players of the game and Hasbro stockholders)

benefits. My biggest concern, honestly, is that D&D was making so

little money that WotC had to let some of their best talent go. I can`t

see how that is good for the game.



As an on-topic note, it seems to me that the new bard (although still

underpowered, particularly due to the changes in Perform) has made yet

another step in the direction of the Birthright Magician. I think that

the 3.5 Bard fills so much of the "magician`s niche" in BR that it is

hardly worth having a magician PC class.



- Doom

[DanMcSorley]

On Mon, 8 Sep 2003, Airgedok wrote:

> I have been trying to find this game for ages. I dont want to buy a

> 1997 game and they often dont work on xp machines now so paying for a

> game that has no tech support anymore seems foolish. I dont suppose you

> know where you can get this game for free do you?



If you don`t want to buy it, don`t play it. Neither the mailing list nor

birthright.net are for soliciting illegal material.



--

Daniel McSorley

[ConjurerDragon]

Airgedok schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=1907

>

> Airgedok wrote:

> I am unaware of such a program.

> I have been trying to find this game for ages. I dont want to buy a 1997 game and they often dont work on xp machines now so paying for a game that has no tech support anymore seems foolish. I dont suppose you know where you can get this game for free do you?

>

>

If you tried to find the game for ages you must have looked with closed

eyes. Ebay or Amazon list several auctions every few month. The local

stores might have run out of stock but even right now at Ebay are two

copies sold, e.g.:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3045873931&category=11050

bye

Michael

[Osprey]

As an on-topic note, it seems to me that the new bard (although still
underpowered, particularly due to the changes in Perform) has made yet
another step in the direction of the Birthright Magician. I think that
the 3.5 Bard fills so much of the "magician`s niche" in BR that it is
hardly worth having a magician PC class.

- Doom


Yeah, but the Magician makes such a great NPC class that I think it should still be included for that reason, at least. A Magician's ability to learn spells as a wizard gives him far more flexibility, and they make great articifers as a result. Besides, a Bard is a very specific sort of arcane caster - Music is always at the center of a Bard's magic, which is an entirely different concept than a magician. Magicians are very much like Raymond E. Feist's sorcerers of the "Lesser Path," while true wizards and sorcerers in BR are of the "Greater Path." I personally love that distinction. Bards, however, really fall into a category all their own; in Cerilia, it is that branch of performance and magic derived from the elven spellsong magics.

Osprey

[Green Knight]

Most of my BR campaigns revolve around fighter, rogue, noble etc character types. Politics, war, love, and swordplay have their place.

Arcane magic, however, I'm quite reluctant to allow (this is purely personal preference I suppose). True wizards and sorcerers have I suppose, never really been PCs in any major camapign of mine. Magicians however, I could more easily live with - they fit much more nicely in with the rest of the crew.

So please, let the magician remain a viable PC class. the fact that he can't cast fireballs is what makes him greatly playable in the Br setting - which is more important to me than any ability to go up against high CR monsters...

On a side note...here is the difference between high ECL and high CR exemplified. The magician might be less powerful when encountered in a typical combat encounter (lower CR than an equal-level wiz/sor), but just as good (or better maybe) when it come to playability and flexibility (same ECL as an equal-lelve sor/wiz). Think on that...

[kgauck]

No, I`m writing from the list. Though I did pop over to the site, run

Strongest Army through the search and the thread was right there.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[geeman]

Opinions vary as to why the Gorgon hasn`t taken over Anuire

yet. Personally, I like the idea that taking over Anuire and claiming the

Iron Throne is one of the "Herculean" tasks the Gorgon must complete in

order to ascend, so I`m not satisfied with the explanation that he is lying

in wait, "farming" Anuire for bloodlines over the centuries by occasionally

rampaging. Even if that`s not the interpretation one prefers then one must

speculate upon why he would continue to prey upon Cerilian nobles. His

bloodline is already 100+ (whatever that means) so what good does it do him

to continue to commit bloodtheft? There is either some other reason for

him not having conquered Anuire by now, or there`s a whole new level of

bloodline that occurs when bloodline score hits the triple digits that we

can speculate about. (Those aren`t mutually exclusive possibilities,

really, since he could be doing a little bit of both.)



There are a few game mechanical/meta-reasons:



1. He can only personally control a realm of a certain size. Even if his

bloodline score is 300 that means he`s got 300 levels of holdings and

provinces he can control. With vassalage, of course, his realm can be

larger, but we still run into a similar issue regarding bloodline in that

what`s he doing with such amounts of regency? Is there something that can

be done with that energy beyond the standard domain level?



2. Thematically, the Gorgon is the ultimate villain for the setting. A

victorious or defeated Gorgon detracts from the campaign. Therefore, the

Gorgon remains perpetually poised... ominous... but he never actually

strikes. The Gorgon striking is as final as the Gorgon being defeated as

far as a major theme of the campaign is concerned. Anyone who`s ever

played the BR computer game can probably attest to how anti-climactic it

was defeated the Gorgon in battle or in one of the adventures.



In addition to those, however, there are some more legitimate reasons that

one might point to:



3. Anuire is fractured, but nothing would be more likely to unite the

competing factions than a massive invasion from the most obvious and

traditional villain. (Well, maybe a reincarnation of Roele`s bloodline, I

suppose....) The Gorgon`s personal power is great, but if faced with the

combined powers of all the regents of Cerilia (some of whom are quite

powerful--it`s hard to picture the High Mage, for instance, sitting out

such a battle) he`d likely be defeated. Along those lines, a full out

assault on Anuire would probably not be against Anuire alone. Other

Cerilians would probably get involved--even other awnsheghlien might fight

him, jealous of his success--making a full out attack by the Gorgon against

Anuire a war with several fronts that he can`t win.



4. The Gorgon`s personal power can decide battles, but it can`t necessarily

win wars. He`d have to be able to consolidate his victories after the

battles were fought, and for various reasons (the limitations of bloodline,

the nature of his conquest, the speed at which the domain level works) the

likelihood of consolidating several hundred provinces is pretty low.



There might also be weird, personal reasons for the Gorgon`s failure:



5. One of the things about the Gorgon is that he is, essentially, a

failure. At least, it would not be difficult to apply that kind of

thinking to his character. A bastard, ill-used by his family,

over-shadowed by the accomplishments of his brothers, lacking the kind of

goals and guidance others have received, and finally passed over for

ascension himself when his "allies" at Deismaar took on the mantle of

godhood from the deity for whom he turned his back on his family, his

nation, his species and his birthright. His insecurities have inspired his

rise to power--but they also prevent him from completing the effort. After

1,500 years of spite, what would the Gorgon be without his hatred? If he

were a success he`d also be rendered purposeless. Elves are naturally

long-lived and we can suppose that their psychology is somehow geared

towards that, but Raesene may not be capable of dealing with the onslaught

of centuries of psychological torment. He might be so rooted in his

isolation and individualism that he`s psychological incapable of completing

his goal in life.



6. Azrai failed. What chance does the Gorgon have? Azrai was the most

powerful of the gods--it took seven of them to defeat him, but he was

defeated nonetheless. The Gorgon has not got that kind of power--and the

gods who defeated Azrai remain. Yes, they appear to be avoiding getting

involved in mortal affairs, but would that oath actually survive his

conquest? Probably not.



There are other reasons; unreliability of his own troops, his lack of

control over his current realm, a deficit in the "magical arms race"

between his realm and others (he doesn`t have the same temple holdings or

elven arcane casters who can create magic items without any restriction in

BR), etc.



Gary

[Birthright-L]

> Barrataria wrote:

> Does anyone here know the complete list of players' secrets books

> published? Or have a link to them?Any thoughts on particularly good or

> bad ones are welcome. Thanks.BB





I enjoyed the Player`s Secrets of Endier. It was my first introduction

to the Birthright world, and afterward I had to buy the campaign

setting.



The Player`s Secrets of Rhoesone is enjoyable, though doesn`t really say

anything new. Still, I`d recommend it.



P.s. One of the things I liked about PSoEndier was that it included

details on the first turn, including all income and clearly showed

expenses. I wish they had all done this. It would have made setting up

my campaign easier, because most realms seem to be in the negative if

you keep court costs constant. (Speaking strictly 2e here.)



--Lord Rahvin

[ConjurerDragon]

Anthony Juarez schrieb:

>> Barrataria wrote:

>> Does anyone here know the complete list of players' secrets books

>> published? Or have a link to them?Any thoughts on particularly good or

>> bad ones are welcome. Thanks.BB



> I enjoyed the Player`s Secrets of Endier. It was my first introduction

> to the Birthright world, and afterward I had to buy the campaign

> setting.

> The Player`s Secrets of Rhoesone is enjoyable, though doesn`t really say

> anything new. Still, I`d recommend it.

> P.s. One of the things I liked about PSoEndier was that it included

> details on the first turn, including all income and clearly showed

> expenses. I wish they had all done this. It would have made setting up

> my campaign easier, because most realms seem to be in the negative if

> you keep court costs constant. (Speaking strictly 2e here.)

> --Lord Rahvin



PS of Endier also has an important fact/error - the castle of level 6

costs 6 GB upkeep (what as I assume means 1 GB per level of the castle).

Normal Rules have 1 GB upkeep for a castle, equally how large it is and

I found the number from the Endier book much more realistic and

believable than the rule from the rulebook ;-)



Nothing compared to the castles in Björn Ruins of Empire campaign

however - these castles must be built from pure white marble seeing the

building cost as compared to the original 2E rules :-)

bye

Michael

[Green Knight]

But then again you make a bit more money too ;-)



Cheers

Bjørn

[Doyle]

> I didn`t scan any of the covers of the Player`s Secret books though,

> didn`t really see the point.



They should be out there somewhere - probably with WoTC`s promotional

stuff - I know I wound up with some JPG`s of them while looking for

something else.



Doyle

[Doyle]

I have some, the zipped file is 255k, what address do you want it sent

to?





-----Original Message-----

From: Birthright Roleplaying Game Discussion

[mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On Behalf Of Vampire

Sent: Sunday, 4 January 2004 9:02 PM

To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM

Subject: Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] Need Cover Art For Player`s Secrets [2#2175]



This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

You can view the entire thread at:

http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2175



Vampire wrote:

Thanks. There are some good pics there. I agree there normally

wouldn`t be much point in the Player`s Secrets covers but I`m making a

Birthright Risk Computer game and I wanted to have the different crests

to represent each player`s starting nation. Ah well, I may just have to

borrow a digital camera. Thanks anyway.



************************************************** **********************

****



Birthright-l Archives:

http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html

[kgauck]

The limiting factor for the Spider`s power is the fact that as he grows in

power he gets fewer and fewer xp for what ever it is that he`s doing. The

problem here, is that where ever you set the Spider`s level you are making a

persumptive judgement about the challenges he faces, and therefore the

average level of elite adventurers in Anuire and Cerilia.



This raises the issue that major campaign villains ought to be scalable to

fit the vision of the DM. DM`s can do this themselves, but they can make

the Spider from scratch too. Scalable villains make sense.



Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

[ConjurerDragon]

Osprey schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2329

>

>...

> I`d say that, using the revised 3.5 mechanics for scions, the next 2 (3?) levels after Desimaar should be as a Scion of Azrai, as he has a True bloodline. What needs to be hammered out after that is just how many monster (awnshegh) levels the Spider has acquired in the last 2000 years. Gods know he hasn`t been entirely passive in all that time - he may be insane, but he`s obviously not stupid or incapable of learning and adapting, otherwise the Anuirean Empire would have crushed him and the Spiderfell long, long ago.

>

> I thought I read a reference somewhere (perhaps in the original 2e description?)that the Spider as a goblin was a great goblin general at Deismaar, and I`d say probably the general of all the goblins there. That being said, 13 levels as a fighter is easily believable when we`re comparing him to most of the goblin commanders of Cerilia at that time!

>

If we take into account not only the rulebooks, but also the storys

then, at the end of the novel "Spider´s Test" is a short story of the

Spider becoming THE SPIDER.

There he is on p. 289 just at the battle of Mt. Deismaar described as:

"...Having cast all his spells, he drew the twin curved, serrated swords

that had become his trademark..." and a bit later he is named "the

Sorceror".



On p. 293 he encounters a different group of goblins from the Stone

Crown Mountains who lost their King.



And even later in that story he fights and kills a human knight, where

his following goblins are all astonished that a single goblin can stand

up to a human knight in plate armour and not only win, but toy around

with his enemy.



Other quotes tell us that he fought the Deretha (the 5th tribe of the

Andu). But the Mhors fought a goblin kingdom and razed Kar-Durgar.



IMO to make Tal-Quazar THE goblin leader of all goblins is making more

of him than he was at Deismaar and I can´t see a united goblin empire

under his rule. The goblin leader of the South Coast would be more to my

liking, with other goblins ruling in the Stonecrowns and in nowadays

Mhoried, and perhaps fighting under his lead when the sidhelien changed

sides and killed some of the other leaders sounds more plausible.



While nonsense in gameterms I would see the Spider as a Sorceror 4 (so

that he could have used the Web spell even before Deismaar), Ranger 5

with favoured enemy sidhelien and human (and having Wild Empathy for

animals). An on top of that would then come the "scion class levels" to

show that Birthright bows to the 3E dictate of balance..

bye

Michael

[Birthright-L]

I believe that mentioned something like this as well; it seemed like a

pretty safe bet given the Gorgon`s power and intelligence.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Birthright-L]

bulletmagnet said:

> Rather than a straight up "kill em all" mentality which seems to be

> prevelant on this forum.



With the Gorgon I don`t think it is a case of "kill `em all", but rather

"be the most powerful". Perhaps, as some have suggested, the Gorgon *is*

pursuing apotheosis through careful cultivation and absorbtion of Anuirean

bloodlines (although I, for one, consider this kind of road to godhood to

be impossible its highly likely that the Gorgon might not know that).



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Birthright-L]

Osprey said:

> Along those lines, but giving the Gorgon less personal credit for having

> any shreds of goodness himself, is that Michael Roele`s spirit still

> haunts him. A friend of mine suggested that if the Gorgon did bloodtheft

> Michael, imagine if Michale`s bloodline was so strong that the Gorgon`s

> blood simply couldn`t fully absorb it. So Michael Roele`s voice is like

> a ghost in his his mind, the maddening voice of conscience that the

> Raesene had silenced within himself long ago. Now, for the last 500

> years, this voice has been there, even giving him occasional urges to

> be...merciful, or kind, or happy...and when his thoughts turn toward

> conquering Anuire, the land that should have been ripe for the picking

> for 5 centuries now, then the voice becomes distracting to the point of

> madness. In fact, Raesene may now be going mad, and the more he tries to

> focus on his conquest, the faster his descent into that pit of darkness,

> that doom of immortals...



Shades of White Wolf`s World of Darkness take on vampiric diablerie?



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[ConjurerDragon]

Mark_Aurel schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2116

>

> Mark_Aurel wrote:

> The Ruins of Empire describes how the walls of Kal-Saitharak `hum with confined power` or some such. As powerful as the Gorgon is in his place of power, he may not be elsewhere.

> Historically, while the Empire still existed, the Gorgon`s forces were too weak to conquer. When Michael Roele died at the Gorgon`s hands, it may be that the effect was that the Gorgon`s bloodline and power was somehow anchored to his home.

> I think that`s the best way of reunifying several ideas. On the one hand, the Gorgon can`t go out himself and beat everyone up. On the other hand, no coalition of armies could conquer his lands unless they brought along some epic heroes. Since his armies aren`t strong enough to straight up conquer everything, the Gorgon has to rely a lot on intrigues and deceit rather than blunt force, and he had to do so even more so back during the Empire just to survive.

> Essentially, the Gorgon would be in a tantalizing situation - for centuries, he`s had the power to conquer Anuire, but not the ability to use that power.

> If I were to write up how to reflect that idea in game mechanics, I`d say the Gorgon loses his bloodline, bloodline abilities, and all abilities reliant upon those when he travels beyond Kal-Saitharak. That would include spellcasting. As a further flavorful element, I might rule that any items created or spells cast by the Gorgon become inert as well, except realm spell. That`d leave him reliant upon minion spellcasters for many purposes.

>

If the Gorgon´s bloodline was not only bound to his realm but actually

to the walls of Battlewaite and as you say that makes him unable to

achieve anything outside, then why does he still have a realm and not

have lost it all, *except* the one province in which his castle stands?



And while losing bloodabilities sounds nice would not like to see the

Gorgon lose his Bloodform - that would contradict his need for a

Bloodhound and Disguisier as hinted in the Book of Magecraft.

bye

Michael

[Birthright-L]

Mark_Aurel said:

> The Ruins of Empire describes how the walls of Kal-Saitharak `hum with

> confined power` or some such. As powerful as the Gorgon is in his place

> of power, he may not be elsewhere.

><snip!>

> Essentially, the Gorgon would be in a tantalizing situation - for

> centuries, he`s had the power to conquer Anuire, but not the ability to

> use that power.



Interesting concept. It makes great use of the "teasers" of information in

the materials as well. I like!



It also explains why he is keen to "breed" up bloodlines and then

encourage heroic scions to come and face him in his sanctum.



> If I were to write up how to reflect that idea in game mechanics, I`d say

> the Gorgon loses his bloodline, bloodline abilities, and all abilities

> reliant upon those when he travels beyond Kal-Saitharak. That would

> include spellcasting. As a further flavorful element, I might rule that

> any items created or spells cast by the Gorgon become inert as well,

> except realm spell. That`d leave him reliant upon minion spellcasters for

> many purposes.



Simpler, in my opinion, to say that he relies on other spellcasters for

everything and has no spellcasting power himself.



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[Birthright-L]

dekar said:

> I think the following idea was good creative idea why the gorgon hasn`t

> taken over anuire and all of cerilia. Also I think it makes the Gorgon

> something more then just and overly powerful character who comes into

> play just to kick butt.



I find that the players make more use of the Gorgon than I do.

"Oh no, it must be a plot of the Gorgon!", etc.



The fact that he exists have paranoid players constantly looking over

their shoulders and plotting ways to get rid of him for good. Perhaps that

is his plan afterall?



--

John Machin

(trithemius@kallisti.net.nz)

"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."

- Athanasius Kircher, `The Great Art of Knowledge`.

[ConjurerDragon]

Ariadne schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2329

>

> Ariadne wrote:

> He,he, if the spider can’t move at all, it can’t jump too (you know, that Str check DC 25) ;)

>

>

Can it ready an action to jump away if the Druid casts a spell? Or can

it act before the Druid if it wins initiative?



> He he, that example druid can fly in (over the forrest for example), fight and fly out. No sain goblin will pay attention to a small bird or bat or other tiny animal, if it only passes. I’m sure even a goblin will not attack any creature it meets just for fun, they won’t notice it (and don’t tell me, that forrest has no animals :) ). And if those troops are searching after the attack? So what&#33; They only have seen a shape changing animal (if at all) and I’m sure they don’t have a “true seeing” at hand... :D

>

That is just my view, but I don´t think you can simply fly over the

spiderfell and hope to spot the spider somewhere. My imagination of the

Spiderfell is one of a mixture of an ancient elven forest with giant

trees, but with a very dense foliage so that a bird flying over the

forest might only see a sea of green.



Being a small harmless singing bird *in* a forest with rumoured scores

of tiny to giant spiders who have cobwebs all around should certainly be

entertaining. The scene in "The Hobbit" on their way to the Mountain as

they passed through this wood - wasn´t there a comparable scene with

spiders and cobwebs? mmmh, I wonder how the sidhelien assassin survived

(the one from the Spider´s test) when in bird form. The chances are

certainly worse than for the singing birds who pass through italy... ;-)



> Yeah, that would be an idea. She will naturally know, how large the town is (because of the size of the dead spot). If she is smart, she can guess the number of goblin families (at least a bit) and knows how much villages lie within the spiderfell and where the largest (the center) is ;)

>

Does the spell give away that information "In the really large

provincesizeforest you can´t use the spell in a radius around that

point"? Or would the druid have to cast the spell over and over at

different places to find out where it works and where not?



> After that she naturally may spy as an animal or even shape changing into a dire wolf or worg (I’m not sure in the moment, if a worg is an animal or magical beast, but the dire wolf will do) and “serve” as a riding animal for a time ;)

>

Which none of the other worgs or riding animals will notice and none of

the goblins would become suspicious that suddenly an additional worg

appears and is ready to be used for riding?

bye

Michael

[Birthright-L]

Off-topic.

I was considering writing up a special monstrous spider that can

commonly be found in the guildhalls, jailhouses, churches, courts, and

palaces of other lands. Harmless by itself, it`s bite is capable of

passing an infection that allows The Spider to hear a victim`s thoughts,

see through their senses, and dominate their wills for a short time.

The victim also suffers from hallucinations and a bad fever, and the

desease rules should be used. The effects last only for about a day.



Only blooded characters can support the magical bond. Non-blooded

characters simply suffer the physical effects of the venom, not the

mental or mystical effects. But the effects don`t go away after a day;

normal desease rules apply.



Its more of flavor material and a plot-hook than an actual monster meant

to fight. It could be the cause of the hysteria of a small town, or any

numerous other plothooks. I have an adventure where a sorceress

collected these creatures but they got free and consumed her and she

awoke as an awnsheigh, in a symbiotic relationship with The Spider.

She`s sort of a cross between spiderman and dracula, having similiar

powers to both.



--Lord Rahvin

[Birthright-L]

> No probably not too high, but not too low either. Tal-Qazar is not a

> supergenius, but he isn`t stupid either. His mastery of riddles just

> comes from being around for 2000 years



Chronicle of the Riddle-Master





"Dream of the ships, proud and true. Calm of the ocean, flat and

blue." A nursery rhyme. All of this suffering, death, war. For a

nursery rhyme. Why? Why?



The men know when they look at me that I lost. Not just the battle.

Not just the dead lying in the field. They`re soldiers. They`re

prepared for that. But some of them saw me in those last moments, and

those that didn`t see had heard about it by now.



"I don`t understand!!" I cried out again and again, struggling against

her webbing. But she just looked at me, and the she-beast bored into my

mind mercilessly. I faught it. The men saw me fight it. They saw me

lose.



One by one my defenses were torn down. How long was I there agonizing

under her gaze while her powers raped my brain, tearing down everything

I was bit by bit, taking every memory I have and passing over it,

disinterested. All the secrets of the kingdom that I was charged to

protect were layed before her. The names of spies. The placement of

scouts. Our supply routes. Everything. But the beast wasn`t

interested in any of it. She went into me and took the memories that

were most private. The birth of my daughter. My first battle. My

twelfth nameday. Until finally...



"Ahhh. There you are."

"Dream of the ships, proud and true. Calm of the ocean, flat and

blue."



She found what she wanted. And she left, taking nothing with her, she

descended into the earth. And my men looked at me with horror. When

they drew their swords, I wasn`t sure if it was to cut me from the webs

or run me through.



But in that moment, I too, was victorious. Her defenses came down as

she clung to my childhood memory and drew it into her own mind and there

I saw it... merge... with the other riddles. And I saw her greed, her

insatiable hunger, for the Book of Nights deep in the warrens of the

earth.



I have one of the riddles. She has three. Preserved as common riddles

in various dialects of anuire, the secrets have been passed on for...

How long? How many more riddles does she need to get the Insight to

read that dread book? Seven. Probably more. At least seven, I know

that.



I also know that I have a long road ahead of me if I am going to get

them first. Who do I turn to for help? Not my men who have lost faith

in me? Why would they believe me? I can go to thr church. Or the

tower in the ancient southern woods. They have libraries that must

contain vast information. Surely I`ll find one of the riddles I need

there. Maybe the king will have soldiers and sages who can help me.

Magicians and clerics and crusaders will surely not laugh at my claims,

but will help me catch and hunt this beast.



But no. This knowledge was meant to be preserved, hidden. I don`t know

how this beast learned of the Insight, but it must be stopped quickly.

We must keep our party small and travel quickly, but how will such a

small party face such a dread awnsheigh? I`ll need help. And I need to

get it fast. Who to trust? Soldiers, of course. Clerics, magicians,

storykeepers, men of wilderness, men of cities. Where can I find such

men?



I need a drink. A very stiff drink.







--Lord Rahvin

[geeman]

At 09:16 AM 4/26/2004 +0200, fiftyone wrote:



> Is there anyway I can convert for more great abilites.



You could give him levels in an awnshegh character class that grants blood

abilities (or other transformative effects) as part of the levelling up

process.



Gary

[geeman]

At 03:21 PM 6/12/2004 +0200, RaspK_FOG wrote:



>You ask if 1 GB should represent 5.000 gp instead of the typical 2.000 gp

>for reasons of working out the math? I don`t think it`s half bad but I

>can`t give a good estimate, since I don`t have the book... So, that would

>make those 500.000 gp castles you mentioned cost only 100 GB instead of

>the "normal" 250; I think it`s good.



I use 1GB = 10,000gp and the math works pretty well for that regarding

things like castles, other construction, mustering troops, etc.



Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

anacreon schrieb:



>This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.

> You can view the entire thread at:

> http://www.birthright.net/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=2743

>

> anacreon wrote:

> Ahem... Why would the anuirean double-headed eagle carry an orb with a cross (usually meant to symbolize the rule of Christianity)? Has the Christian god arrived in Cerilia?

>

The orb stands for the world or the empire and could stand for the

desire of the Anuirean Empire to rule the entire continent of Cerilia or

the whole wolrd Aebrynnis. And the cross could simply be the symbol of

Haelyns sword hilt. So you could use the picture without any connection

to christianity or real-world.

bye

Michael

[geeman]

At 06:57 PM 8/29/2004 +0200, irdeggman wrote:



>There are none with levels of noble? Even though that class is still

>being decided it is significant for at least some of the regents.



Prince Avan, for instance, should have just enough levels as a fighter to

allow him to fight "Brecht style" and the rest of his levels should be as a

noble (the one being proposed for the BRCS, not the "armiger" style that

others have suggested.) As a 12th level character he might not require any

levels as a fighter at all given that he has five feats from his character

levels.



>Also since the use of prestige classes are purely optional (per the DMG pg

>176) I would give none any levels in them, unless you include a varaint

>writeup listing them.



Most of the landed regents probably won`t have levels in a prestige

class--unless one is going to premise some sort of regent-type prestige

class, that is. Guilders are similarly a little difficult to justify in

the prestige classes that have come out in D20 products. That`s not

because they don`t qualify or anything. The prestige classes just seem to

be less regent-like. Likewise for wizard/source holders. When it comes to

the temple regents, however, it`s harder to justify not having a few levels

here and there in a few prestige classes, particularly since almost all the

individual gods of Cerilia would seem to lend themselves to one or more

such classes.



I`m not sure what to do about prestige other than to suggest about prestige

classes since one of the stated goals of the BRCS update is that only the

core texts should be required. Maybe there should be a note that where

levels in a prestige class are noted the character could just be redefined

as straight clerics (or druids) if one doesn`t have access to the

particular D20 product in which the prestige class is written up?



Gary

[geeman]

At 11:32 PM 12/8/2004 +0100, in the "Chap 1 for discussion" thread

irdeggman wrote:



>>I don`t know what the current rules on using Det Magic on a Blood item

>>are, but this might let you sense Blood as a magical school equivalent?

>

>Creating a new school to cover blood abilities is to me simply the wrong

>way to go. I`ve had this argument with Gary many, many times but have yet

>to give in. There are exactly 8 schools of magic (plus universal, which

>is everything else). This is a fundamental precept of the D&D magic system.



At 06:22 AM 12/10/2004 +0100, The Jew wrote:



>You are right the playtest did halve the bloodscores. But the outcry from

>the rigid old players unable to handle any sort of modernisation :P has

>reinstated the original rules.



Interesting to have past threads result in such weirdly opposed

viewpoints. Wanting to change things too much and being opposed to

modernization so quickly in such rapid succession.... Whiplash. Since I`m

the bozo who probably made the most noise on both those issues and they

have been brought up again I feel obliged to reiterate my positions.



First, the assertion that the eight schools are a fundamental precept of

the D&D magic system is at best highly dubious, and most likely simply a

fabrication. In fact, that interpretation appears to be the result of an

elaboration upon what is really just the method used to organize the spell

lists and descriptions in the 3e texts. In a set of works dedicated to

spelling out things in painstaking detail there`s no mention of the schools

of magic being designed to be so used. That aside, there`s no reason to

maintain the eight schools of magic in campaign material and, in fact, not

a lot of reason to maintain them in any other circumstance other than for

organizational purposes. That`s especially the case if there`s a good

reason to go with something that fits into the themes of the setting

better--and uses all the other game mechanics that actually are in the text.



In regards to the halving method for bloodline score: While I applaud the

efforts to update the system so that 3e gamers can play BR, the decision to

halve bloodline score for the purpose of making it fit into the ability

score game mechanic was... well, not the best choice. The only solid

justification for it that I could see was so that one could balance

bloodline using the ability score point buy system, and that was a pretty

sketchy method of achieving game balance. It`s really not a matter of

modernization of the setting. It`s a matter of making a workable system

for those 3e gamers to use. Halving bloodline score for the purpose of

character generation so that one could then double it for the remainder of

play in order to get the actual number is a goofy mechanic, and just as a

methodology turning bloodline into an ability score didn`t really make a

lot of sense.



Gary

[The Jew]

On your first point I agree with your basic logic, but do not see any reason to make the change. The current schools cover all magic, and divine magic (which blood abilities are inhereted from) fit within that system. So I don&#39;t see any need to create a new school. It also creates complications. Would a spell which protects against enchantments then protect against a blood ability which acts like an enchantment? Its like adding psionics, uninteded loopholes and complications will start appearing as all the original game mechanics and rules clash with this new exception.

As far as the bloodlines. I actually agree with you. I was just answering Bokeys question and decided to throw in a little verbal bomb to tickle the sensibilities of several posters.

[irdeggman]

There are so many problems with putting things into multiple schools - which is something Gary has been advocating since, well forever.

And most of these have been listed before:

It totally screws up specialization restrictions. If a spell is in multiple schools it is still restricted if any one of them is on the specialist&#39;s opposition school list.

It totally messes up spell focus and other related feats. Suddenly a character can slip in a spell not on the school list by having it appear in multiple schools.

It totally messes up some prestige classes due their concepts (able to cast X level spells from the evocation (or conjuration) school, etc.)

There are absolutely no examples of spells being in multiple schools in any WotC product to date, including the CA. Gary at one point brought up Ghostwalk and ghost spells, but as the text in the book stated it isn&#39;t a school. The description makes it more like a new list or domain list if you want to simplify the issue. This is similar to what happened with the elf/haf-elf nature spell affinity in the latest version of Chap 1.

IMO the basic reason that Gary has such a hard time with the schools as written is that he has a hard time understanding what the base connection is between spells that are in the same school. I understand his logic and problems here, but I can accept something like this just to make the game mechanics work easier and pretty much because it was always that way in pretty much all versions of D&D so I&#39;m used to it.

Now how the heck Gary got his reply to a different thread to end up attached to this one? :huh:

[geeman]

At 12:27 AM 12/11/2004 +0100, irdeggman wrote:



>Now how the heck Gary got his reply to a different thread to end up

>attached to this one? :huh:



That`s an interesting little SNAFU. It looks like the original subject

line "Re: [BIRTHRIGHT] (d20 Atlas) Deciding on Regent&#39;s Vitals

[2#2808]" was too long so the numbers that note thread and location on the

birthright.net message boards (the digits in brackets at the end of the

subject line) when sent from the birthright-l mailing list got cut off. I

would guess it got put here because it`s the most recent thread.



I`m going to try to get my response to this post to go back to the original

location....



G

[geeman]

At 03:58 PM 12/11/2004 +0100, Hrandal wrote:



>In the first tabletop BR game I ran, Lasica tricked one of the PCs in to

>"dishonouring" her so that she could avoid marrying Guilder Kalien. Of

>course, Heirl Diem was outraged, and a swift shotgun wedding ensued. She

>was one of my favourite NPCs to play - smart, waspish and constantly

>pushing her PC husband to expand his realm.Also, the relationship between

>Heirl Diem and his new son in law was wonderful to behold - the baron was

>constantly fighting down the urge to strangle the Khorien lad on sight for

>seducing his daughter and ruining his diplomacy.



Wow, that sounds like it was an awful lot of fun to game out. Some questions:



1. As the son-in-law what was the PC`s role in the realm? Did he control

holdings/provinces in Diemed, act as a LT, vassal and/or did he already

have his own realm? I`m just curious how one might adjudicate the

Vassalage potential of the in-laws....



2. Shouldn`t it be "heavy crossbow wedding"?



Gary

[geeman]

Crud, I think the previous post got sent to the wrong thread.... Let me

try it again.



At 03:58 PM 12/11/2004 +0100, Hrandal wrote:



>In the first tabletop BR game I ran, Lasica tricked one of the PCs in to

>"dishonouring" her so that she could avoid marrying Guilder Kalien. Of

>course, Heirl Diem was outraged, and a swift shotgun wedding ensued. She

>was one of my favourite NPCs to play - smart, waspish and constantly

>pushing her PC husband to expand his realm.Also, the relationship between

>Heirl Diem and his new son in law was wonderful to behold - the baron was

>constantly fighting down the urge to strangle the Khorien lad on sight for

>seducing his daughter and ruining his diplomacy.



Wow, that sounds like it was an awful lot of fun to game out. Some questions:



1. As the son-in-law what was the PC`s role in the realm? Did he control

holdings/provinces in Diemed, act as a LT, vassal and/or did he already

have his own realm? I`m just curious how one might adjudicate the

Vassalage potential of the in-laws....



2. Shouldn`t it be "heavy crossbow wedding"?



Gary

[Green Knight]

Me too. Since the paladin had such a low caster level (hlaf his class

level), he would only get to cast pretty basic spells anyway.



B