Ilien

[Nameless One]

Discussion thread for Ilien (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Ilien). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Nameless One]

Isn't the coat of arms for Ilien in the wiki too much like that of Müden (from the war cards for Royal Knights and Royal Marines of Müden)? Why a new version when there is already a nice and more realistic one in the Player's Secrets?

[kgauck]

These arms are taken from the image in the Ruins of Empire from the banner behind the presumed regent. Which arms do you refer to in the PS that are realistic?

It would be impossible to make arms for every realm unique and realistic. Real arms resembled someone elses arms because of the small numbers of common charges.

So it is that the arms taken from the banner in the Ruins of Empire bears some similarity to the arms on the warcard for the Royal Knights and Royal Marines of Müden. This kind of thing was pretty common.

[ConjurerDragon]

kgauck schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3985
> kgauck wrote:
> These arms are taken from the image in the Ruins of Empire from the banner behind the presumed regent. Which arms do you refer to in the PS that are realistic?
>
> It would be impossible to make arms for every realm unique and realistic. Real arms resembled someone elses arms because of the small numbers of common charges.
>
> So it is that the arms taken from the banner in the Ruins of Empire bears some similarity to the arms on the warcard for the Royal Knights and Royal Marines of Müden. This kind of thing was pretty common.
If everyone would have had colours and arms easily recognizable by
everyone - then why have heralds who learn that stuff and scholars
record it?

[Nameless One]

These arms are taken from the image in the Ruins of Empire from the banner behind the presumed regent. Which arms do you refer to in the PS that are realistic?


Yeah, I never noticed the one in RoE before. Player's Secrets of Ilien has a CoA on the front page that is made of four symbols, much like that of Spain. It has a bit too many colors in the background for my taste but incorporation of several symbols reflects the development of CoA quite well. Actually, the ship is there in the upper-right segment. Maybe the banner in RoE is just a banner, less complicated than the CoA, or maybe the the ship on the field of blue is a personal symbol of House Aglondier? It was common for noble houses to have their own CoA and to incorporate some of the elemements from their CoA into the CoA of their realms. If that doesn't sound like a good explanation, then maybe the ship is CoA of the Free City and the compound CoA is for the County?



It would be impossible to make arms for every realm unique and realistic. Real arms resembled someone elses arms because of the small numbers of common charges.

So it is that the arms taken from the banner in the Ruins of Empire bears some similarity to the arms on the warcard for the Royal Knights and Royal Marines of Müden. This kind of thing was pretty common.


I know, but Ilien and Müden are like half Cerilia apart. Not much connection. I guess most commoners in Ilien have never heard of Müden.

[Nameless One]

kgauck schrieb:
If everyone would have had colours and arms easily recognizable by
everyone - then why have heralds who learn that stuff and scholars
record it?

I think the greatest problem of heralds was the CoA changed very often. Individual nobles would make up their own symbols, incorporate them into the CoA of their house to create a new CoA for their branch of the house, then when they became Counts or Dukes or Kings they would incorporate their personal symbols and symbols of their house into the CoA of their realm and make a really nice mess. If you take into account the possibility of frequent changes of rulers and ruling families you'd get quite complicated and frequently changing CoA. A good herald would be able to identify a reason for change in a kingdom's CoA.

Another reason for CoA becoming more compound and harder to identify are unions and breaking ups of realms, for example like historical union of Castilla and Aragon. Baron of Ghoere could similarly mix up his own CoA with CoA of the two duchies he conquered to create a new CoA of Ghoere if he is promoted to Duke. A good herald would understand what happened if he saw a soldier with this new CoA on his uniform or shield even if he hadn't heard of Baron's promotion.

[kgauck]

If everyone would have had colours and arms easily recognizable by everyone - then why have heralds who learn that stuff and scholars record it?

Look at the Armorial as it is now at
http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Category:Heraldry
It contains most of the provinces of Anuire, and a few scatters realms elsewhere. It adds up to 179 distinct coats of arms, and that is only for provinces and realms (and a few NPC's). If you added in lessor nobility, personal arms, cadency for sons and brothers, guilds, temples, guilders, priests, military orders, and anyone else who has the right to bear arms, we could easily be talking about well over 2000 coats of arms. Realms that no longer exist, disbanded knightly orders, families no longer in extence all add still more arms.

[Nameless One]

Look at the Armorial as it is now at
http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Category:Heraldry
It contains most of the provinces of Anuire, and a few scatters realms elsewhere. It adds up to 179 distinct coats of arms, and that is only for provinces and realms (and a few NPC's). If you added in lessor nobility, personal arms, cadency for sons and brothers, guilds, temples, guilders, priests, military orders, and anyone else who has the right to bear arms, we could easily be talking about well over 2000 coats of arms. Realms that no longer exist, disbanded knightly orders, families no longer in extence all add still more arms.

Thank's a lot! I saw that there are CoAs for almost every Anuirean realm and province but I had no idea I could get them all on one page. I just recently uploaded a CoA for Tuarhievel so I guess I should add it there right now...

...and I would if I knew how...

[kgauck]

I had been avoiding the elves. Properly they should have a different look and feel. As the most unhuman of the non-humans their arms should be very different from the humans.

[Nameless One]

True but we are just humans so I doubt we could make up something strange enough. Maybe we should assume that Elves adopted the tradition CoA from humans or vice versa? If languages could influence each other so could noble traditions.

[Sorontar]

Likewise, I have issues with Rjurik using heraldry. I just don't see them as needing such identification due to their nomadic nature and the different approach to regal inheritance they have when compared to the dynastic system of the Anuireans.

I agree that it isn't very elvish either. Dwarves wouldn't as such have arms, they would have trademarks that they would carve on their work/buildings etc. This would sometimes be extended to banners etc. I can see the Vos using more symbols on banners than following any complex heraldic rules. Ditto for Orog and Goblins. The importance of status and association in the Brecht and the Khinasi give reason for them to use heraldry.

IMHO most of the heraldry would be whatever the College of Arms (CoA) declares it to be. Therefore, if the CoA declares that the Kraken has arms, then it does. The Awnie doesn't have a say in the matter. This would be a hangover from the empire.

On that point, has anyone established what the role of the heralds is in "present day" Cerilia? Is there actually any traditionalists who call themselves the College of Arms, or does each kingdom just create its own CoA and its own heraldic rules? Is the CoA just part of the Chancellor's office? Do realms let it continue after the "death" of the empire because it may help them prove the legitimacy of their regent's claim to the Imperial throne?

[Nameless One]

Likewise, I have issues with Rjurik using heraldry. I just don't see them as needing such identification due to their nomadic nature and the different approach to regal inheritance they have when compared to the dynastic system of the Anuireans.


I don't see the Rjurik as nomadic, except for the tribesmen. Maybe the ancient Rjuven, but certainly not the "modern" Rjurik. Even if they didn't develop heraldry on their own, most Rjurik realms were part of Anuirean Empire and many of them of their own will and retaining their own Rjurik rulers as vassals of the Emperor, and so I think they certainly would have adopted heraldry during that age. I don't think that every jarl has a CoA, but the realms and the major families certainly do.


I agree that it isn't very elvish either. Dwarves wouldn't as such have arms, they would have trademarks that they would carve on their work/buildings etc. This would sometimes be extended to banners etc. I can see the Vos using more symbols on banners than following any complex heraldic rules. Ditto for Orog and Goblins. The importance of status and association in the Brecht and the Khinasi give reason for them to use heraldry.


Hmmm, Dwarves would certainly have some form of symbols for their clans as their assiciation with their clans is very important to them.

Elves are strange and that's it, especially Birthright Elves. They treat plants and animals almost as their equals, yet they had the largest empire on Cerilia before the humans came and that empire had a ruler and nobles and court and so on. "Modern" Elven realms also have all those things. Elves are very different and unusual when compared in detail with other races, but in general their culture seems to have developed the same things as other cultures so it is not impossible to consider them the inventors CoA.





On that point, has anyone established what the role of the heralds is in "present day" Cerilia? Is there actually any traditionalists who call themselves the College of Arms, or does each kingdom just create its own CoA and its own heraldic rules? Is the CoA just part of the Chancellor's office? Do realms let it continue after the "death" of the empire because it may help them prove the legitimacy of their regent's claim to the Imperial throne?

note: When I type CoA I mean Coat of Arms.

I think Anuirean nobles consider their CoA to be the part of their ancestry as much as their family name and as much as the lands they hold, but I don't think they have anything to do with legitimacy of claim to the Iron Throne. I also don't think that Anuirean nobles (at least majority of them) consider the Empire dead. Even if it was consider dead, I doubt they would abandon the tradition of CoA. I see nobles as proud of their CoA just like you are probably proud of your country's flag, and newly established noble families would probably want to make up their own CoA as soon as possible so as not to be seen as inferior to the others.

[kgauck]

I don't think the nomadic Rjurik have heraldry either. The settled Rjurik of the Taelshore certainly would, especially, as Nameless One suggested, it was a custom they adopted during the long years of Empire.

Each of the nations, should have different kinds of arms stylisticlly. Hopefully, its clear that the Rjurik have a different look, just looking at Stjordvik.

http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Category:Domain:Stjordvik

[Thelandrin]

As regards the College of Arms, I am certain that there would be only one, based in the Imperial City and under the watchful eye of the Chamberlain. After all, having heralds and a college etc. are meaningless if several exist, each sponsoring tens or hundreds of coats-of-arms, many of which would be identical.