Tuarhievel

[Deathknyte]

Discussion thread for Tuarhievel (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Tuarhievel). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

Rather than continuing to discuss the Tuarhievel pages under the discussion for Rhuimach Taeline, I moved them here so that future viewers will find them by means other than accidentally.

[Rey]

Kenneth, is there any PS or accessory that you "recognize" as a full fledged member of BR family or is only RoE actually a canon, in biblical sense, while others are shunned as not worthy?

Guys, you are changing what is written by TSR and you are not even mentioning that this is your own personal view of things and give it as an alternative reference, but instead you just jot it down like it's there in the original. I'm being told that I can't find few people and write something new without approval and involvement of the whole BR community while others have right to do it on their own, even changing the original material?
I don't agree to this material and I want the original. If you don't like it, offer an alternative and mark it as a fan fiction (isn't there a legal problem about this, too?). Making stuff up that doesn't exist, I can live with that one, but this is another thing. If people don't like the original, they will use the alternative or none. If there is something terribly wrong, open a discussion before you change something.

[Sorontar]

Canon vs fan-based was always known to be an issue. So early on we (meaning the BR wiki moderators who had to work out what the policies we are "enforcing" are) decided that:

1) Most of what will go in the wiki is fan-based so there is little need to mark it as such.
2) The content of the BRCS 3.5e will need to be protected (which it slowly is) and it is the pdf version, not the wiki version, which is the "official" version.
3) If you don't want people to edit your work, put it in a User:Sorontar/My_Gorgon type page.
4) If your page is from a race or character's point-of-view, then make it an Observation page.
5) Discussions about pages and their content are to be done on this forum.
6) Nothing is "official" on the wiki. It is just a way of speeding up getting people's ideas to others, since the Atlas etc stalled.
7) The wiki is there to be modified by anyone, because it is a wiki.

And as point 6) says, nothing needs to be sanctioned because nothing is official. If you have problems with someone's page on [[Brecht hairstyles]], then comment on the forum discussion page, edit the page to fix what you see is wrong, or add a variant to the page.

The problem with the WotC publications has always been that they aren't consistent in how they handle similar stuff, and they don't always make sense/agree with each other.
People seem to have been forced to decide for themselves what is the best elements of each PS etc. On this wiki, fans are trying to smooth these things out and add new details and interpretations.

Sorontar.

[Wilenburg]

with the atlas pretty much stalled out and without help it would take forever to get it out. Hence is why all the files I have been adding since there is really no one to help with the atlas so I am putting it up with what has been done for the community as a hole could try to help with it buy seeing what is done and how much there is to do.

I hope this explains all the files since individually it was simplier to put each into a new thread.

I know it is off topic but it is all I can do to get it going.

[Rey]

When there is problem with consistency, it should be discussed. You see it, it doesn't fit in, let's work it out. Otherwise, who gets first to the wiki will write his own. Then someone will see it and say, no, it doesn't work for me that way, it's this way. Only out of respect of the people who work on the wiki, I didn't re-write some things as I see fit.

Take population for instance. In god's forsaken land, where no living human being wants to live and it's harsh for anyone to survive, there is a kingdom that counts three times more population than in nice warm climate kingdom with plentiful resources.

Sooner or later, there will be inconsistencies within wiki, because not one person will work on it all. Then someone might not recognize what someone else is trying to pull and put his idea. Then first one will erase that and put his own, and so we go round.

This is fan based, and you interpret it your own way. Someone comes for reference, compares two domains and sees info doesn't match up. In the end, it's one man's word, not community's. Some things are being discussed after they've been applied, and some aren't ever.
I respect the work people are doing here. I wish I had more time to do it myself.

Isn't it fair to let people decide if they have problem with original material, than doing it for them on your own? It's only good will or maybe ignorance or laziness other people don't argue with that. Not everyone is willing to spend his time reading 4000+ articles on wiki and search for potential problems of one man's idea.

[kgauck]

The version of Rhuimach Taeline that I posted is more or less the one that I first presented to the Birthright Community in June of 2003.


A new post on a topic from September of 2002.

Fhiele Dhoesone is a half elf, and sister of the king of Tuarhievel. When this discussion passed last september, I`ve abandon the idea of a half-elf as a hybrid. I had to do something with Fhiele, though. She`s becoming important in the PC`s machinations in the Taelshore. You can see her story and my solution for her at

http://home.mchsi.com/~kgauck/taelshore/Fhiele.html

Ryan Caveney should be well pleased.

Kenneth Gauck

kgauck@mchsi.com

As the post by Lee only yesterday in the Half-Elves, Cerilian thread demonstrates, the approach I have been using is a standard variant in the Birthright community. I was unaware that anyone at all (in 12 years of discussion on the subject) used the PSoT as is. So if anything was to be labeled, I think its stuff related to Savane becoming regent of Tuarhievel, like "A letter from Savane Mhoried" posted yesterday.

I'm perfectly happy to see other versions of Rhuimach Taeline posted, or to see another version of his background if someone else has another take on this character.

The best characterizations of NPC's will come from their being used in a real campaign, as Rhuimach was used in my Taelshore campaign. Good characterizations should take a priority over published but unsatisfactory core materials. The dissatisfaction with the PS's in general and this one, Tuarhievel, in particular has been pretty widespread.

I have a preference for revised characterizations that remain true to the character concept in general. My work in Talinie has followed this principle. But when we get to Tuarhievel, we also have the question of elf-human relations, the nature of half-elves, and so on. Going back to September of 2002, this community has created a half-elf variant in which they are not the offspring of a human and an elf, but transformed humans in service of Sidhe purposes.

I regard this as an "official" variant since so many people have said they use all or major parts of the approach. I fully understand that even people who appreciate this variant choose not to use it.

Creation of a special banner and the use of a slightly different vocabulary (such as Hanner Sidhe) seem quite appropriate because people looking for the half-elf as changeling interpretation I have championed are going to look for half-elves of this kind, and a banner makes them easier to find.

However, cleaning up the mess that is the PSoT is another matter. Since the BRCS was first envisioned I have argued that there is no point in us simply reproducing junk, if a piece of text that sits before us in a published source is junk. I don't think much of the PSoT is usable as it. I think a lot of it can be fixed with careful editing, and some of it needs serious revision.


Kenneth, is there any PS or accessory that you "recognize" as a full fledged member of BR family or is only RoE actually a canon, in biblical sense, while others are shunned as not worthy?

No. No PS is anything more than apocrypha, a text of uncertain authority. It provides names, situations in broad strokes, but its details are too frequently a mess. They violate the rules set down in the rule book, contradict other more authoritative sources, are internally inconsistent, or are just obvious first draft efforts in need of revision.

If, for instance, the Savane Mhoried page I wrote was just a creative effort, it could easily have gone to a character with a different name or a Mhoried sister of my own invention, but it was created to resolve problems so many people have had with the Savane character and her role in Tuarhievel. Rhuimach Taeline was re-written for the same purpose, but with more of an eye to Dhoesone since that's where RoE places him. Having him leave Dhoesone and become an advisor to Savane just doesn't seem to be the way to go with that character.

I am not happy to see the worst parts of the PS's do damage to Birthright's appeal among people finding the wiki for the first time. One hopes that in the dozen years since it came out, people have tweaked and improved the material therein to give us something a bit better to present to the world on the official BR site.

The 3rd edition setting materials were so much better in consistency, thoughtfulness, and depth than 2nd edition setting materials. I now, in hindsight, think that 3rd edition may represent a high point for settings as coherent, sensible things. What we present ought to match 3rd edition quality standards, not only because we have a duty to our own setting, but also because we are in competition with other settings for readers and players.

Let's produce the best quality materials we can, and avoid a devotion to inferior materials just because they were published by TSR on their way to bankruptcy.

[Rey]

Great. Can we discuss the utter wrongness of some parts of PSs before someone spends his or her time typing them on the wiki?
And, for that part, any other issue not fulfilling the expectations.

[kgauck]

Sure. But since the total volume of PS's is quite large, perhaps you would like to suggest some places to start.

I have a few of my own.

If Fhileraene was removed as Prince (presumably so that a PC could become Prince or Queen) what caused him to not be Prince any more? Going off alone to be abducted by the Gorgon is generally regarded as unsatisfying.

Other than for this purpose, Fhileraene should be assumed to be Prince, since the more common use of a PS is to play an elf in Tuarhievel or to adventure in Tuarhievel or interacting with Tuarhievel politically.

If Savane is not a changeling being groomed for rule in Mhoried, what is she doing there? If she's just a concubine, what is her likely fate? Regent in her own stead is not the most likely outcome. Dead or fleeing back to Mhoried is more likely by orders of magnitude. If Rhuandice Tuarlachiem and the ghaellie Sidhe were to sit by and let Savane attempt to rule, it is clear that the ghaellie Sidhe is an impotent force and we should portray them as such, because even in the heart of an elf kingdom, they are pathetic. So is she dead, fleeing, or a changeling?

The first page of the PSot, the letter from Savane therefore needs to be replaced by a letter from some more reasonable person. Who would that be? Fhileraene might explain his absence if that fits how he left the throne. Llytha Damaan the prince's lifelong friend, childhood companion, and lieutenant is a good possibility. Ruandice is likely to have something to say no matter whether others have a message or not. I can't imagine her letter or communication would not be vastly different depending on the views of the new regent of Tuarhievel.

Well, that covers page 2 of the PSoT.

[Rey]

30 to go. :)

Since PS volume is large, the first ones could be the ones associated with current larger changes on wiki, like Rjurik is very much in heat these days (is it because it's so hot outside so we're looking for some cooling) so PS of Stjordvik, Tuarhievel (with Dhoesone as first neighbor to Stjordvik and in close relations with Tuar.), and Halskapa are the winners. And perhaps to tie them with R.Highlands to generate a solid base for other domains and eventual new PSs.
Along the way there could be all the rules that are compromised, like population issue, domain ratings, and holdings, which are currently discussed in separated threads.

Considering Tuarhievel, Prince could be abducted, many humans and [half-elves] live near Thorn Throne so some could be spies. Also, with Savane in the game, some of the elven nobles might have planned it. Gorgon perhaps demanded tribute or Prince's head in exchange for not attacking Tuarhievel, and he's only bluffing because he is sure he'll lose many units and also because elves know that victory could be costly and other human and non-human realms would soon crush them to pieces.

What about Savane? She could be secretly escorted by Tara in fear of a lynch. But, is she invested with prince's blood? If not, prince's absence could mean the political turmoil in domain and increase inner disagreements. And perhaps this could be the hook for PC to stand in.
Murdering her, for elves would mean worsening the relations with Mhoried.
Maybe to put her in charge of Llyrandor estates to appease those who don't approve of gheallie Sidhe and conveniently on first line of defense?

The letter could be written by Rhuandice, seeking to 'return the crown' to the family of the first Queen.

[AndrewTall]

It is worth remembering that the Gheallie Sidhe have killed pure-blood elven monarch s who were too close to humans - Savanne as depicted in PSoT is an unplayable abnormality - the Gheallie Sidhe would slaughter her - and Tara is the awnshegh tried to intervene - without the slightest qualm, in the event that Mohried went to war, it would be carved between Ghoere, Mur Kilad and the elves and the Gheallie Sidhe would come out stronger than before as the undecided elves responded to the human aggression. If you try and run Savane as regent then you have the problem Kenneth mentioned - no Gheallie Sidhe, in addition to requiring major changes to sidhe:elf relations which are generally not subservient on the elven side in BR.

A Hanner Sidhe banner would be helpful for those without long history with br.net, the local approach to half elves threw me initially although I can now see the reasoning behind it.

In terms of agreements before the wiki - we've had 10 years arguing over population, et al, so we are not going to get agreement. The wiki lets us put up the ideas in easily search-able format, readily label the various approaches, etc.

As for PS's they are a labour of love meaning that they will be done as someone who likes a realm comes to it rather than in a coherent order, I've pretty much finished PS Danigau, done significant chunks of dhoesone, and it's taken me around 2 years to write them. Cardinal Malik has written 2, I know of a handful of others - all that have been done in a decade. Even most realm 'top pages' in the wiki are still unpopulated.

[Rey]

Unplayable abnormality. Nice one. :)

Mur-Kilad, you mean Markazor?
Sidhe:elf, you mean Sidhe:human? :)

It's hard to imagine Savanne as regent without being harmed very quickly. I don't know if Tara's presence is enough to protect her. Prince's absence could mean that his allies can't keep militant elves at bay anymore. But let's not remove Savanne from the picture by slaughtering her, she may be exiled and one day her child could play some role. (Gollum, gollum)

Don't give up on population and the rest of the issues. Two or three alternate rules can be assembled and everyone can choose his favorite. Like you said, wiki is ideal for that. If someone playtest it, you can reject those that don't work and improve the best method, if it's needed. You wanted whole community to participate in it, and after a decade the solution is nowhere to be seen. Because of the experience with the BRCS atlas team, any idea of team work on a certain task is now unacceptable. Both ways this wonderful setting loses.

You know that people round here are not paid for their work, so it's hard to imagine anyone will be eager enough to work on anything, whether it's populating a wiki or writing a PS. And then, how can you do it if you say that half of those books published are done just to fulfill quota. You have to re-write them again and some general issues are not cleared yet. We come to what's been said, anyone can write their own version that will not be consistent with others.

[kgauck]

But let's not remove Savanne from the picture by slaughtering her.
I think the default position should be as things are in the Ruins of Empire. Fhileraene is alive and protecting the human guilders, his human neighbors, and Savane. The question is, since people seem dedicated to writing these "how does a PC take over this realm" bits while the rest of Cerilia stands with blank pages or uncreated pages, that Savane should not be Fhileraene's successor. I think since the purpose of the alterations in the PS's were to let PC's take the throne, the Thone Throne should be in interregnum awaiting the players, not occupied by a place-holder who must be expected to be removed by the PC's.


If not, prince's absence could mean the political turmoil in domain and increase inner disagreements. And perhaps this could be the hook for PC to stand in.

This is the route I would take where I ever to elect to leave blank domains alone and explore this what if scenario. I understand wanting to detail a domain. I have detailed every eorl, nearly every lord, and some of the cohorts of royal and eorlish figures. You can go back a generation or two and investigate the realm in the days of our fathers. So, I just don't get why we write documents that presume the regent dies. This seems to me so dependent on what I want to do with the campaign, I can't imagine ever using such a document. Whatever happened to Fhileraene would logically echo throughout the campaign. Its not my cup of tea. [/rant]


population issue, domain ratings, and holdings,

I'm not sure what issues you are referring to regarding domain ratings and holdings.

As for population, I think this is best served (as I think Andrew was suggesting) by use of the neutrality policy. We assume that there are high population and low population preferences among players, and write for both audiences as much as possible. That doesn't mean we can't discuss populations ever again. It would be ideal if there were a consensus, I just don't think the wiki can wait for it to emerge.

[Rey]

So, Fhileraene has Savane and they live happily ever after until DM decides his opposition is trying to harm him desperately (or not) and the PC tries to involve himself into that part of the puzzle? Political situation like that already has a lot of space for maneuvering, without trying to kill prince and his consort, like my BR character has as a court mage.

I too don't like it when PS is written like the ruler is about to die, has to die, has gone dying or simply goes off adventuring cause he doesn't like ruling (or dying).

Seems to me that if people want low or high population campaign they will choose so. Official rules are set for low, as I see you comment them. So, instead of rewriting domain levels for high campaign, maybe they should be described differently. It sure is a hack of a less work. Instead of level 0 province with 1000 people, say it means 3000, with one major settlement of 1000 that could support one unit of soldiers. Or something like that. But that's another thread.

By holdings, I mean that contesting thread.

[kgauck]

So, instead of rewriting domain levels for high campaign, maybe they should be described differently. It sure is a hack of a less work. Instead of level 0 province with 1000 people, say it means 3000, with one major settlement of 1000 that could support one unit of soldiers.
But that is what we're talking about. I don't know anyone who wants to re-write the domain rules. My argument is that the domain rules are they are now, make sense with higher populations, and don't make sense with lower populations. The rules are fine as they are, the descriptions need to account for more people.


By holdings, I mean that contesting thread.
That kind of stuff goes on all the time. The wiki need not address stuff like that unless a clear approach and advocates for it coalesces. Otherwise people can put up their own theories on their personal pages.

Reworking basic mechanics is a much steeper and we should generally wait for more "finished product" in that arena. Its easy (and harmless) to put a a few lines of a character sketch of a new elf NPC you have in mind, and then others come along and add and modify it. Doing that with mechanics doesn't work so well.

[Rey]

I don't know anyone who wants to re-write the domain rules. My argument is that the domain rules are they are now, make sense with higher populations, and don't make sense with lower populations. The rules are fine as they are, the descriptions need to account for more people.
No, no, not the rules, but the domain tables, levels on the map and in the table. Those needn't change, just the descriptions, as you say.


That kind of stuff goes on all the time. The wiki need not address stuff like that unless a clear approach and advocates for it coalesces. Otherwise people can put up their own theories on their personal pages.
Then we should clear one up and use it in general. Through a process of discussion and approval.


Reworking basic mechanics is a much steeper and we should generally wait for more "finished product" in that arena. Its easy (and harmless) to put a a few lines of a character sketch of a new elf NPC you have in mind, and then others come along and add and modify it. Doing that with mechanics doesn't work so well.
Whose finished product?
It's harmless if you put a line on whether she (NPC) has green or purple hair, but not if you involve statistics that may render that NPC too powerful. ;)
But, that's only a small fragment of a game that may never come into play. Sure game mechanics could do much more damage to campaign.

[Rey]

Kenneth, this last section of Life and society you posted seems like some general material, not the one specifically connected to Tuarhievel. It can be applied to all elven realms. Isn't that more suitable for race description?

[kgauck]

No, no, not the rules, but the domain tables, levels on the map and in the table. Those needn't change, just the descriptions, as you say.
That's what I advocated in the Population thread, just explain that 1000 can mean 1000 people to some, and 1000 hearths to others.


Then we should clear one up and use it in general. Through a process of discussion and approval.
This has all been done, and has been published as a pdf and transfered to the wiki as the Birthright Campaign Setting, or BRCS. People always discuss modifications, house rules, and what they would do to change this or that. But, even though only parts of the BCRS have been sanctione by the BR community, it has an air of authority. I say this as someone who doesn't use the BRCS. If we tear it down we need to put something as good or better in its place with as much or more support from the BR community. Until you have that finished product, the BRCS is as official as the BR world gets.

Its for this reason that the BRCS pages are moderated and that we can't change the table as it exists now on the wiki. We need to make a new page discussing the controversy and link to it with a See Also.

[kgauck]

Kenneth, this last section of Life and society you posted seems like some general material, not the one specifically connected to Tuarhievel. It can be applied to all elven realms. Isn't that more suitable for race description?

I don't know if I'd put it in race. Its about running elf domains, so it can on another page once we have other life and society stuff or, more significantly another elf realm that needs the same thing.

But in the meantime that seems like a fine place to put it. Baruk-Azhik has one for dwarves, and that will likewise need to go up a level once we start to develop another dwarf domain.

In some kind of final form, a link can be included in a sentence that raises the issue to a separate page.

But while I'm mentioning this, I'd rather keep a small block of text there rather than have the main page be nothing but a list of links. The style we have used as a standard is to put relevant data on the front page until it gets long enough that this becomes a problem. And when content gets moved to its own page, a summary remains on the main page.

[Rey]

That could do.

[AndrewTall]

Unplayable abnormality. Nice one. :)

Sorry, I dislike the human-oriented rulership ideas typically foisted on the elves - I've ranted elsewhere about the fallacy of imposing a human feudal system on immortals so I won't repeat. But she is indeed unplayable, and an abnormality, albeit likely a cute one to catch the fancy of an elf. Of course by human standards she's probably considered skinny and reckless.


Mur-Kilad, you mean Markazor?

No, the goblins will be slaughtered as cannon fodder, the dwarves will rule! :o sorry, I get carried away sometimes.


Sidhe:elf, you mean Sidhe:human? :)

Sigh, I should learn not to post tired. I use (when I remember anyway) Sidhe to define the 'isolationist hunt the humans down and slaughter them' side of the elves, and 'elf' to describe the more outgoing/uninterested sorts and tried to edit down a long post that had rambled - keeping savanne means seriously changing the situation between the sidhe and the elves, but obviously the relation of elf and human will change more.


You know that people round here are not paid for their work, so it's hard to imagine anyone will be eager enough to work on anything, whether it's populating a wiki or writing a PS.

The difficulty is not getting people to 'work on' stuff, its getting them to put it up on the boards / wiki where their dream could be grouched at from all sides. I don't write stuff for the wiki because I feel the wiki should be worked on, I write stuff because I can't not - if anyone reads any of my ramblings then that's a bonus - but I've got reams of paper covered in stuff from BESM to Mechwarrior to Earthdawn to B5 etc, etc that will <never> see the light of day - and I knew that it wouldn't when I wrote it. I am a GM, I dream therefore I am.


We come to what's been said, anyone can write their own version that will not be consistent with others.

Well, most stuff will be reasonably consistent as the big stuff is rarely contentious - and what isn't will go unused and fade. I moved province boundaries in Danigau, if people like it then they will use it, if not they won't.

Whether you write in 2e, 3e or 4e will impact mechanics, but that is easy to see and work around.

[Autarkis]

The only comment I would state here as to why Savane may still be regent and not killed instantly is the assumption that there was no repercussions from Ibelcoris death on the perpetrators and that Savane may be non-Sidhe her child is considered Sidhe by Sidhe society. There is also the thought that Fhileraene may be returning by the majority of the Sidhe.

[geeman]

At 10:48 AM 7/5/2008, Autarkis wrote:

>The only comment I would state here as to why Savane may still be regent and not killed instantly is the assumption that there was no repercussions from Ibelcoris death on the perpetrators and that Savane may be non-Sidhe her child is considered Sidhe by Sidhe society. There is also the thought that Fhileraene may be returning by the majority of the Sidhe.

In writing up information about Cerilia`s elves, I went through the BR oeuvre on elves and reviewed the GS, general elven attitudes toward humanity, and how these things might influence their culture. I`ve written up some detailed information on the GS (who would be the folks to assassinate or inspire the assassination of Savane) on a case-by-case basis, and based on that reading/writing I`d suggest the following:

1. There is no uniform elven organization of GS. The range of GS groups is very broad.

2. Each elven realm has a distinct version of the movement. One actually works WITH humans.

These two statements are supported by core materials.

3. The GS of Tuarhievel is a sort of microcosm of the elven attitude towards the movement in the first place. That is, each province of the realm has its own individual take on the Hunt.

4. Tuarhievel is one of the more egalitarian of elven realms.

These last two statements are supported mostly by the PSoTuarhievel, so those who think Savane is a bad idea in the first place could argue that the text on the GS and elven culture for that realm is likewise questionable. However, if one looks at the core materials for that realm there are also indications that this is true.

I`d also suggest something when it comes to the individual PS texts. Yes, they sometimes (even often) have materials that seem at odds with the rest of the BR canon, but that is precisely the point. The PS texts are meant to form the basis of an individual campaign. They aren`t canon setting material in the sense that other materials are. That is, they were written to form the tumultuous, sometimes bizarre, periods of conflict that form the basis of a good campaign. Conflict is the source of drama, folks, and aberration is wellspring of conflict. One isn`t supposed to assume that all the PS texts are happening at once. When beginning a BR campaign focusing on one of those realms one can take or leave the really weird ideas suggested by the PS texts while assuming most of the optional material in the other campaigns isn`t going on. Or that those bizarre events will not occur until the PCs travel to that domain to experience them firsthand.

Savane, her child and the murder/capture of Fhileraene by the Gorgon is a prime example of that sort of gaming material. It`s a convention of the PS texts to present materials to justify a PC as the regent, and though they admittedly went a little overboard with the idea in the Tuarhievel text, it`s meant to be the kind of thing that PCs deal with, not a standard of elven society or even domains in general. So, in Tuarhievel, the GS is broken up into individual provinces/family/clans with each group having its own take on the concept. Some are very open-minded, others more close-minded, but none an extreme of GS "conservatism" if you will.

With that in mind, Savane should absolutely be a subject of high controversy--and PCs should deal with that. But upon reflection there`s nothing in the description of her regency that goes against BR dynamics. There are half-elves all over the place in the setting. Where do they come from? Why not a regent with such a relationship? We have other indications that elven rulers do the same, even in elven realms that are more overtly anti-human. Check out how the Queen of the Sielwode (a supposedly closed realm to humans) deals with such things if you don`t believe me....

Gary

[kgauck]

One isn`t supposed to assume that all the PS
texts are happening at once. When beginning a BR campaign focusing
on one of those realms one can take or leave the really weird ideas
suggested by the PS texts while assuming most of the optional
material in the other campaigns isn`t going on.

That's because the PS's are not hyperlinked together. The wiki is. Which means that some of the odder material is better suited to the rumors and plots sections than stated as the current state of affairs.

One doesn't read entries on a wiki like one reads a PS. It doesn't come organized the same way, and it would almost require having examples of a PS to reconstruct one from the wiki (using say, Danigau).

For those with a desire to maintain every oddball quirk in a given PS, I suggest moving them to some to a place that suggests they could happen. Character descriptions and the plots and rumors sections being good examples of this.

Say a plot goes something like this:
Prince Fhileraene has been said to have received a secret communication from the Gorgon. The message is unknown, but the Prince is considering going to meet the abomination. As a precaution, he has considered investing Savane with his holdings while he is away. Hint darkly and so on.

If one really, really loves the Savane storyline, write it up as an adventure and link to it at the plots and rumors and the Savane character page.

But consider, one might be reading a page elsewhere on the wiki, see a like to Fhileraene click it and find oneself very quickly on pages where Fhileraene is simultaneously Prince of Tuarhievel engaged in political struggles and gone missing with someone else on the throne.

This sounds to me like an editorial policy designed to confuse people and drive them to some other setting where they have their act together. So I propose we not do that. Instead let us presume that the wiki has hyperlinks and that we cannot predict what navigation paths readers will take, requiring consistency in all of the realms of what is supposed to be happening right now.

[kgauck]

Once again, posted in the Tuarhievel thread not specific to Tuarhievel have been moved. The recent thread on general editing issues has been moved to Editing the Wiki.

Starting here:


Like anything it depends on implementation...

[AndrewTall]

1. There is no uniform elven organization of GS. The range of GS groups is very broad.

2. Each elven realm has a distinct version of the movement. One actually works WITH humans.

These two statements are supported by core materials.

If you are commenting on my post, my apologies if I was unclear - I was referring to the GS of Tuarhievel only - as Tuarhievel is one of the most open realms (it has human guilds listed in RoE which makes its position pretty clear even if you dislike the stuff in PSoT) - then one would expect at least some of the local GS to be at the most extreme anti-human end of the spectrum (hmm, I wonder if Fhileraene calls his knights gheallie sidhe - to him it is a neutral term, but I digress).


With that in mind, Savane should absolutely be a subject of high controversy--and PCs should deal with that. But upon reflection there`s nothing in the description of her regency that goes against BR dynamics. There are half-elves all over the place in the setting. Where do they come from? Why not a regent with such a relationship? We have other indications that elven rulers do the same, even in elven realms that are more overtly anti-human. Check out how the Queen of the Sielwode (a supposedly closed realm to humans) deals with such things if you don`t believe me....

Gary

The anti-human sidhe tolerating the odd 'human plaything' for Isaelie is a very different proposition to them kneeling at the feet of that plaything and obeying that plaything's whim - or standing by while the plaything rules over other sidhe. Human consorts, even of sidhe rulers, are not a major problem - you may not like your neighbors pet, but if you respect your neighbor you don't throttle the dratted thing when it makes a mess, you just ask the neighbor to clean up after it - that tolerance does not mean that you respect the pet as you do its master. I would suggest that the more rabidly anti-human the sidhe, the less likely they are to respect such a plaything sufficiently to consider it a threat to be eliminated - this arrogant dismissal would however end the moment that the plaything sought to wield the authority of the ruler.

Having Savanne hold Fhileraene's bloodline 'in trust for his child' and live in Tuarheivel if he leaves I'm fine with - a race of immortals with a minimal birthrate does not lightly kill an unborn child; more importantly adventure opportunities (rescue Fhileraene, discover his betrayer, protect Savane from the GS, ensure the child is raised as a sidhe not a human, etc) abound in such a position.

That does not mean that I can accept her as queen. This, by elven standards mere child? A child moreover of the ruler of a large militant neighboring human realm - in a culture where filial obedience is probably a religious duty? This human? This admitted god-slave? This aristocrat who thinks that rulers should hold court daily and pass laws like water over every aspect of life?

To keep Savanne as queen means accepting that not one of the anti-human sidhe (gheallie or otherwise) has the power or gumption to remove her (likewise with Tara) which means that the anti-human faction is practically impotent; their impotence removes much of the conflict and tension from playing the elves in the first place. That makes her bad for the game and a canon area to fix rather than blindly accept imo [/rant]

[geeman]

At 03:58 PM 7/7/2008, AndrewTall wrote:

>If you are commenting on my post, my apologies if I was unclear - I
>was referring to the GS of Tuarhievel only - as Tuarhievel is one of
>the most open realms (it has human guilds listed in RoE which makes
>its position pretty clear even if you dislike the stuff in PSoT) -
>then one would expect at least some of the local GS to be at the
>most extreme anti-human end of the spectrum (hmm, I wonder if
>Fhileraene calls his knights gheallie sidhe - to him it is a neutral
>term, but I digress).

Several folks were suggesting similar ideas, so it was more general
than directed at anyone in particular. My overall point, though, was
that Tuarhievel is one of the more tolerant elven domains when it
comes to humans. At least, one would have to put them on the "nice"
side of the Tolerant-Intolerant scale of elven kingdoms. Sure,
there`d be hard-liners, and Savane would have to be careful, but we
can`t assume she`d be quickly done away with by the GS, or even that
she`d be done away with at all. No matter what, she`s the mother of
the heir to the throne, and half-elves are accepted fully into elven
society, so even hard-liners would have difficulty making the
argument that she had to die.... Removed from power, sure, but
killed outright? Want to be the guy who explains that why his mother
had to have her head chopped off when the heir comes of age? For
example, that didn`t work out too well for several of the guys who
sided against Anne Boleyn when her daughter came to power.

>> With that in mind, Savane should absolutely be a subject of high
>> controversy--and PCs should deal with that. But upon reflection
>> there`s nothing in the description of her regency that goes
>> against BR dynamics. There are half-elves all over the place in
>> the setting. Where do they come from? Why not a regent with such
>> a relationship? We have other indications that elven rulers do
>> the same, even in elven realms that are more overtly
>> anti-human. Check out how the Queen of the Sielwode (a supposedly
>> closed realm to humans) deals with such things if you don`t believe me....
>
>The anti-human sidhe tolerating the odd `human plaything` for
>Isaelie is a very different proposition to them kneeling at the feet
>of that plaything and obeying that plaything`s whim - or standing by
>while the plaything rules over other sidhe. Human consorts, even of
>sidhe rulers, are not a major problem - you may not like your
>neighbors pet, but if you respect your neighbor you don`t throttle
>the dratted thing when it makes a mess, you just ask the neighbor to
>clean up after it - that tolerance does not mean that you respect
>the pet as you do its master. I would suggest that the more rabidly
>anti-human the sidhe, the less likely they are to respect such a
>plaything sufficiently to consider it a threat to be eliminated -
>this arrogant dismissal would however end the moment that the
>plaything sought to wield the authority of the ruler.
>
>Having Savanne hold Fhileraene`s bloodline `in trust for his child`
>and live in Tuarheivel if he leaves I`m fine with - a race of
>immortals with a minimal birthrate does not lightly kill an unborn
>child; more importantly adventure opportunities (rescue Fhileraene,
>discover his betrayer, protect Savane from the GS, ensure the child
>is raised as a sidhe not a human, etc) abound in such a position.
>
>That does not mean that I can accept her as queen. This, by elven
>standards mere child? A child moreover of the ruler of a large
>militant neighboring human realm - in a culture where filial
>obedience is probably a religious duty? This human? This admitted
>god-slave? This aristocrat who thinks that rulers should hold court
>daily and pass laws like water over every aspect of life?

Savane isn`t queen. She`s the "first consort" which is exactly what
you`re suggesting. The difference is de facto and de jure,
certainly, but it`s the kind of rationalization that`d allow for such
a thing. The big picture, though, is that there are reasons why this
stuff appears in the PSo Tuarhievel text and not one for some other
elven nation. In Sielwode, a human consort set up as regent upon the
"death" of the queen likely would end up on the pointy side of an
arrowhead sooner rather than later. Tuarhievel can just squeak by on
the tolerance scale with such a backstory, and if she is to be
assassinated it`s the kind of thing players can deal with as part of
an adventure or campaign....

The description of Savane gives a pretty savvy take on how she would
be able to survive in her position. She is "custodian" of the realm,
not queen. She acknowledges her betters. She promises to give up
the responsibility as soon as possible. Of course, those things
might take a few decades....

When it comes to elven attitudes towards age, childhood, etc. I would
take exception with the concept that they look at humans and assume
that their are, by elven standards, mere children. I don`t think
elves really have such a standard in terms of time. They reach
maturity and then stay there. The difference between a 200 year old
elf and a 2,000 year old elf is zero. (Physically, that
is.) Adulthood, therefore, is adulthood, and elves have seen too
many humans to assume that 30 years of age to a human is the same as
30 to an elf.

Gary

[AndrewTall]

No matter what, she`s the mother of the heir to the throne,

Why? Why on earth would one of Fhilerane's children be accepted as heir purely due to genetics? Why not a grandchild, an uncle? Why would human systems of inheritance based on 20-year reigns have any validity for a people who expect to live thousands of years and see no reason to die before their children? This idiocy is one of the core fallacies of PSoT - the human idea that children inherit their parents place, that social position is fixed at birth, etc cannot function for immortals barring the most grimly totalitarian culture or extra-ordinarily rigid genetic inheritance. I explored this concept in http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/User:AndrewTall/The_mystery_and_wonder_that_is_the_Cerilian_elf

Savanne is mother of a half-elf - that gives her value. Savanne holds an elven bloodline captured from the so-called gods at Deismaar - that gives her value but also offers insult to many. Savanne is a noble child of a neighboring power - that gives her value (she has potentially useful influence) but also makes her a threat. She is therefore someone in a very interesting position certainly, an intriguing campaign concept, but one that was not properly thought through in PSoT - indeed she is probably its biggest failing.


and half-elves are accepted fully into elven society, so even hard-liners would have difficulty making the argument that she had to die.... Removed from power, sure, but killed outright? Want to be the guy who explains that why his mother had to have her head chopped off when the heir comes of age? For example, that didn`t work out too well for several of the guys who sided against Anne Boleyn when her daughter came to power.

Well, the Tuarheviel Gheallie Sidhe (probably Rhaundice or an ally) killed Ibelcoris, a full-elven queen, simply for opening the borders to humans - and her son was forced to accept their actions and leave them in power - that to me is a fair indicator that Savanne cannot survive if she has any sort of authority over the elves - her 'crime' is far more severe than that of Ibelcoris who merely opened up the possibility of such contamination rather than directly personifying it. Further if she is killed her child can be raised as a proper elf without being stained by her presence. That said, murder is for the unimaginative, and elves are very imaginative people...


Savane isn`t queen. She`s the "first consort" which is exactly what you`re suggesting. The difference is de facto and de jure,
certainly, but it`s the kind of rationalization that`d allow for such
a thing.

I'm fine with Savanne around while Fhileraene is king - it adds several potential storylines for starters (almost a 3-musketeers scenario, do you follow king, queen, or cardinal (Rhuandice) ). The problem is when Fhileraene inexplicably wanders off and Savanne takes over - on this we will probably need to agree to differ. I need the GS to be strong and active to play a role outside Tuarhievel so they have to be fairly butch and aggressive, and I cannot see them letting it be known across all Anuire that "the elves have finally bent knee to a human queen who now has the richest dowry in all Aebrynnis for whichever blood-drenched human warlord wished to claim it".


When it comes to elven attitudes towards age, childhood, etc. I would take exception with the concept that they look at humans and assume that their are, by elven standards, mere children. I don`t think elves really have such a standard in terms of time. They reach maturity and then stay there. The difference between a 200 year old elf and a 2,000 year old elf is zero. (Physically, that is.) Adulthood, therefore, is adulthood, and elves have seen too many humans to assume that 30 years of age to a human is the same as 30 to an elf.

Gary

I agree on different standards of adulthood certainly, and was referring to mental maturity, wisdom, knowledge, mystical awareness etc not mere physical maturity. The PSoT did its best to make a silk purse out of a sows ear by saying how smart, gracious, humble, etc she is, but Savanne knows practically nothing of sidhe history, culture, has only a few years experience to get to know the people - barely long enough to identify key players and their surface motivations etc. In short Savanne cannot understand, much less hope to win, arguments with the elves and probably merely embarrasses her listeners with her gauche suggestions on how to ease discord amongst the sidhe - all of which would have been tried centuries ago if they had any merit.

The average sidhe who has quite possibly lived several thousand years will be unlikely to have blindly listened to Fhileraene - and given that an elven ruler by virtue of sidhe lifespan and mentality can rule only by consent, not divine right - I really can't see the sidhe following Savanne. Nor can I see any reason why she would have taken over after Fhileraene left - why would she even be allowed to test herself on the throne? Why would the throne even attempt to judge her, a non-sidhe anyway for her survival to have value? Her claim is not merely weak (I slept with the last king) but bettered by thousands of others.

The more elven approach in my view would be that it was far better to have no king for a few decades than a bad one - it's not as if the elves need a king for much after-all and if they agree on a general then the need is minimal.

[geeman]

At 02:12 PM 7/8/2008, AndrewTall wrote:

>>No matter what, she`s the mother of the heir to the throne,
>
>Why? Why on earth would one of Fhilerane`s children be accepted as
>heir purely due to genetics? Why not a grandchild, an uncle?

Well, you`re talking about more stuff than we have information about
in the given materials. Maybe there just isn`t such a
person.... It`s not like elves are described as having big families.

>Why would human systems of inheritance based on 20-year reigns have
>any validity for a people who expect to live thousands of years and
>see no reason to die before their children? This idiocy is one of
>the core fallacies of PSoT - the human idea that children inherit
>their parents place, that social position is fixed at birth, etc
>cannot function for immortals barring the most grimly totalitarian
>culture or extra-ordinarily rigid genetic inheritance.

Inheritance in elven realms is described as coming most often from
the Land`s Choice. That the Land seems to choose heirs who have a
blood relationships and who would inherit in a human realm is it`s
own little mystery. Who knows if the Land will choose the half-elf
child when/if the time comes? What matters is that at a certain
point the Land does seem to support the kind of inheritance that is
the norm in non-elven realms, so the development of that as a social
standard isn`t really based on the adoption of a human method. Even
before Deismaar it would appear elves used the same system of
inheritance, or one very similar.

>Savanne is mother of a half-elf - that gives her value. Savanne
>holds an elven bloodline captured from the so-called gods at
>Deismaar - that gives her value but also offers insult to
>many. Savanne is a noble child of a neighboring power - that gives
>her value (she has potentially useful influence) but also makes her
>a threat. She is therefore someone in a very interesting position
>certainly, an intriguing campaign concept, but one that was not
>properly thought through in PSoT - indeed she is probably its biggest failing.

That opinion sounds like a pretty good reason why the optional, PS
text having to do with the inheritance of a realm by a PC should be
especially noted as coming from such a source and for such a purpose....

Gary

[Sorontar]

I am not really following all of this thread properly because this domain is not an interest of mine. However, I was wondering ... can Fhilerane agree that should she die, she has two separate heirs:
* Savane for her bloodline (which she has already got some of by being Fhil's child)
* someone else (or the Council) for her holdings?

This would allow for modern-style regents (a regent regent), i.e. the heir is too young to be king and take on the responsibility of domain/realm actions, so someone else does the job for a while. He/she has not matured so most of the blood abilities have not revealed themselves. But they would inherit the bloodline regardless. Given time, it would be expected that the regent regent would pass the holdings over to the heir when they came of age.

Has someone written something like this up before?

This would make it a political fight, with Savane trying to prove her maturity for the role, but the council not wanting to release the holdings to her. Savane would not be the queen, just the queen-in-waiting. What is mature for an elf is not
necessarily the same for humans.

Sorontar.

[Rey]

Savane issue to me is only a "human on the throne of the elven realm and we don't like humans, so we can't allow that" matter. If I were an elf, I wouldn't care. In 5 minutes of elven life she would be long gone, buried and forgotten. Savane who?

And that's what I hate about this setting. Elves are so fantastic they can live forever because they sprang from the union of earth, air, water and fire, and puny humans are dead while they turn their head and spit.
"Where did that human go... I was out for only 5 minutes.. hmmm"

Examples:
First elven king of Aelwinnwode - lived for at least 13,000 years. Killed.
Queen Tuar - lived a lousy 3,000 years, then killed.

For 15,000 years elves of Aelwinnwode (later Tuarhievel) had exactly 1 king, 2 queens and two princes. That's what a human domain has in 100 years.

If they're so fantastic, why are they on the verge of extinction by lesser races? Only because of birthrate?

[AndrewTall]

Elven survival is an oft argued topic.

One answer that I quite like is that 'the weakness is all human mis-perception'. The elves suffered terribly in the war of the shadows and Deismaar, but ever since have been recovering. As however the elves are not naturally expansionistic, and few humans ever enter their realms, the growing numbers are simply unknown to the outside world.

Under this sort of approach the Hanner Sidhe are popular, as a campaign story arc is then the elven resurgence which tends to require enough elves to hold much larger lands.

Other points are the shadow world : Cerilia split. With the Shadow World still containing spirit world areas these may be elven (or at least Seelie refuges), other elves could simply not answer a crown, or be experiencing an unusual passage of time. If you want to beef 'hidden' numbers then as a fan of morphic elves I can see many living the seas, deserts, polar regions, etc.

For me much of the problem is simulationism, elves are eternally young immortals with minimal industry that are immune to diesease - the only thing that really can kill of large numbers of them is a war, and the elves are not in the main a profitable opponent. Their numbers should therefore be steadily growing since Deismaar - particularly when the warding realm spell is taken into account! Yet if the population now is 8 times the number post Deismaar, the elves would have had to die in insanely high numbers in the battles (8* = 3 doublings = 1 doubling every 500 years - 1 child every century with 1 lost before they mate).