Seperation of Heraldry between family and country

[Thorogood Roele]

I think that all of the heraldry on the wiki is fantastic, however, I would like to point out that a seperation needs to be made.

Unless the rulers of the country are also of the line of the original family that were dubbed ruler of a given land, the heraldric symbol of the country, county, duchy, barony etc. will not be the same as the personal heraldry of the ruler.

As an example... William Moergan and Jaeson Raenech are both linked to the same personal heraldry. This is impossible, they are not blood related. So if the heraldry listed for them is the heraldry of Osoerde, then different personal arms need to be created for Raenach and Moergan. Even upon a new family being crowned ruler, they would not take on the arms of the country as their personal coat of arms.

Heraldry is only passed to immediate heir unaltered, at the very least, and I believe that typically it was only 1st son. Additional sons modified it, at least slightly, to differentiate.

Another example of this is Aerenwe and Swordraith.

An example where this may be appropriate is Avan/Avanil and Boeruine, where the original family is still in control of the duchy/principalitiy from the day of it's founding.

[The Swordgaunt]

Normally, sons used the same heraldry as their father, with minor alterations added to distinguish the knights from each other. The son who inherited the family land (if applicable) sometimes reverted to the 'true' heraldry upon assuming his fathers rank and position.

Further, it was not unfamiliar for a knight to design his very own heraldry upon reaching knighthood, regardless of family shield and crest.

[ThatSeanGuy]

As an example... William Moergan and Jaeson Raenech are both linked to the same personal heraldry. This is impossible, they are not blood related. So if the heraldry listed for them is the heraldry of Osoerde, then different personal arms need to be created for Raenach and Moergan. Even upon a new family being crowned ruler, they would not take on the arms of the country as their personal coat of arms.

Wouldn't they? Raenech is a bastard, but he somehow managed to get acknowledged as "Legitimate enough for us not to worry about." by a good hunk of Anuire. Doing something like taking the coat of arms of the old ruling family would be a powerful symbolic gesture in that respect. Similarly, I could see Moergan absolutely refusing to give up his family's coat of arms, seeing it as the penultimate symbol of his struggle to regain his birthright.

Furthermore, remember that while similar, the same rules of real world coats of arms don't need to apply. In Cerilia, being blooded means having a direct, mystical, visible connection to the land. So perhaps the tradition is that, when a country is upsurped, the nation's colors stay with the regent who managed to win the land's approval.

Pratically, it just makes more sense to apply coats of arms to the stuff we know exists; domains and their regents. It's easy enough to add or subtract a few details to seperate the Raenech and Moergan coats of arms, for example, while retaining the same basic "Oserode" outline that'll let it be recgonizeable outside of individual gaming groups.

[The Swordgaunt]

Furthermore, remember that while similar, the same rules of real world coats of arms don't need to apply. In Cerilia, being blooded means having a direct, mystical, visible connection to the land. So perhaps the tradition is that, when a country is upsurped, the nation's colors stay with the regent who managed to win the land's approval.

You are right, but remember also that BR will most likely place as much, if not more, weight on a bloodline. In our world, blood was an intangible, somewhat abstract concept during the Middle Ages. In BR, it is as real as gravity, and thus, I think families and land will have separate coats of arms. Similarities between them, especially in cases of old dynasties, will of course be present.

[Rowan]

I think usurpation is rare enough, considering the longevity of the various dynasties in their given realms, that a change in coat of arms would be acceptable. Though I agree, Raenech would try to usurp the legitimacy of the heraldry of Osoerde, as well.

As for a visible connection to the land, beyond the regent I'm not sure how far that exists. I would tend to agree that there should be some connection there, but there is a general lack of rules assistance for the concept of a non-regent scion to have some connection to the land.

It would be quite interesting if there were something. Perhaps some strong familial affinity or lingering effect of investiture remains with William Moergen and becomes manifested in various ways. If this mystical connection made it virtually impossible for Raenech, as invested/usurped landholder, to conduct an Espionage action against William due to a supernatural inability to locate or sense William, or even to locate and obtain the truth of his conspirators, it would go a long way to explaining William's continuing existence.

[ThatSeanGuy]

See, that's an awesome idea, right there.

Maybe make it a blood ability. "Realm Affinity" or something.

[kgauck]

Another game I have played, HYW (http://www.hyw.com), has the idea of an ancestoral rebellion, where the person with ancestoral rights can come back home and stir an uprising against the current rulers. I think every scion with a tie to the land can do this, which is what is behind great captain events.

Its why there are no Carieles in Cariele, and why Jaison's failure to deal with William is a problem for the usurper.

Other explanations can be offered, but the idea of ancestoral rebellion is pretty capable. Plus, since the DM has control of who one's ancestors were and what connections they might have to a place, its hard to abuse. And what limits might be imposed can also suit the local history or personalities, or whatever.

[kgauck]

Seperating the arms for people and places vastly increases the amount of arms uploaded and created. Plus it adds its own problems. What is the relationship of William Moergan's arms to the province of Moergan? Any answer adds complexity that will appeal mostly to heraldry enthusiasts at the cost of most others, while increasing the number of arms needed for the setting by as much as two.

Even so, there are a few examples of personal arms differening from provincial arms. Romiene is not the same as the countess' arms, Hidaele doesn't match its count, which is Hidaele quartered with Dhariel. Daerin Isilviere will have the Isilviere arms differenced with a white border while Fairfield has her traditional arms.

Quartering can solve some of the problems, but for the most part, I think symettry between provinces and counts and kingdoms and regents, is the better route, at least until most of Cerilia has arms.

[ploesch]

RW rules of heraldry are a bit varied depending on period and region, what might actually be helpful is coming up with rules of heraldry for cerilia, a background on how the rules were accepted by all the tribes.

Perhaps the roelle's held great contests but you couldn't compete unless your arms followed the rules, which might be enough for even the Vos to have decided to follow the rules.

Now, when coming up with these rules, it can be explained that the arms belong to the rightful heir in a bloodline sense, not in a lineage sense. Which would go a long way toward explaining why rulers use arms that you wouldn't necessarily use. Perhaps the rightful heir has a device to mark them as the heir, while the rest of their family would not. The ruler is the only one allowed to have anything shown outside the shield plane (Crest, Helmet, Suporters, Mantle) on their arms or maybe just not allowed to show a Helm or crest.

Just a thought, I can already see some issues, but perhaps just thinking of the rules would make the rest more clear.

Some thoughts.
*The shield shape would designate tribe or region (Anuirean, Khinasi, Vos, Brecht, etc.)
*The helm shape could denote rank, region, herald or artists preference or perhaps only be allowed to be used by landed regents.
*The Crest, Wreath and mantle would be personal to the Scion, so this might change from ruler to ruler of the domain, although direct decendants would probably use the same family crest. Alternatively, this could represent the duchy, county, kingdom, and be the one part that represent the realm you rule.
*The shield elements would be where most of the required devices would be. This is where the rules would really come into place. I would limit it to 5 devices. A quartering plus a center.

There definetely should be some uniquely cerilian rules in the creation of a crest, but using RW rules as a basis would be good.

I'm sure the rules could be tweaked in such a way that they would work for the current situation, and having rules would give a basis for creating future arms "realistically".

[Sorontar]

While I support there being semi-formalised rules for Cerilian heraldry, as has been pointed out, different RL communities/nations had slightly different heraldry. IIRC even to this England and Scotland have different chief heralds and different registers of heraldry (and possibly different rules).

However, while bloodlines are common throughout all of Cerilia and the Anuirean Empire might have been what started the heraldry, I would still allow some differentiation between regions. For instance, different groups are important in the regions. For Rjurik, it is the clan. For Brecht, it is the guild/company. For Vos, it is the fighting unit. For Khinasi, it is the family/church of Avani. For Anuirean, it is the nobility. I would like this to be worked into any heraldic "rules".

Perhaps these groups define whose name the arms are "registered" in and who controls such registration, even if they are passed down along bloodlines. For instance, in Brechtur the heraldry may be controlled by officers from a council of guilds for all the major cities/provinces. They decide what guilds can bear what trade insignia/arms so as to make sure there is no commercial confusion. The arms are bestowed upon the regent/boss of the guild as it is he/she who decides who can represent the guild.

Sorontar

[Thorogood Roele]

I really like the ideas that Ploesh initiated, and that Sorontar continued with.

Anuirean (read Roele) started the use of heraldic arms when he named his dukes under him granting them the right to a distinction no others were able to have. As the empire expanded the use of these expanded into the other realms. Emperors desided the laws reguarding them and for the most part the rules followed the laws of say real world England. The other lands... Rjurik, Khinasi, Brechtur, followed those because in order for their "nobility" to retain it's distinction during the time of Anuirean overlords they had to or they would not be seen as being distinct from the peasant populace by the overlords, and feared this distinction being lost to history over time. However, as the Empire lost its power over these other lands their own flavors were added by region... ie the Brecht lands started giving right to arms to guilds, the Rjurik adopted a more celtic/viking clan flavor and perhaps druidic circles to their heraldry, the Khinasi the family and church of Avani, maybe even the mages that took the 3 oaths (or whatever it was) the Vos going to a strictly warrior code of heraldry, ie more like the military, you earn your stripes kinda thing by the number of won victories and battles you fought in.

I very much like the following "rules"

*The shield shape would designate tribe or region (Anuirean-french/english style of shield, Khinasi-Spanish type of shield, Vos-Russian, Brecht-German, etc.)

*The helm and placing of crowns and wreaths upon the helm would denote rank, including knight (plain knights helmet) up to duke having the very intricate helmet, then if they are royalty (actual blood relative to the Roele family, by birth or immediate marriage) a crown would be placed upon the appropriate helmet of the actual rank they had obtained, the crown varying from a simple wreath (ie 2nd cousins of the emperor) to the full blown royal crown of england style for the emperor/ess, and just short of that for their sons/daughters and son(s)in-laws/daugher(s)-in laws. ie a basic knight marries the daughter of Emperor Roele (although unlikely) he would have a basic knights helmet with a royal crown (one step down from the full blown royalty crown) placed upon it (until he was given greater standing by the Emperor, up to duke or something) Additional seperation being added for actual regents, like plumage. This would likely be modified in Khinasi, where the crown would reflect the family or church standing and the crown may be substituted with some sort of more educational status instead.

*The mantle and supporters would be personal to the Scion, so this might change from ruler to ruler of the domain, although direct decendants would probably use the same as their family. Alternatively, the supporters could represent the duchy, county, kingdom, and be the one part that represent the realm you rule. (ie since the falcon and the wolf novel state that the realm symbols of Ghoere was the wolf, and falcon for Mhoried, the Mhors shield would have Falcons holding it up, and Ghoere would have wolves, Avanil, dragons, Roesone-white stags, Boeruine-bears, City of Anuire/Emperor-Eagles, Coeranys-horses, etc.
*The shield elements would be where most of the required devices would be. This is where the rules would really come into place. I would limit it to 5 devices. A quartering plus a center.

[kgauck]

I've already created and posted about 200 coats of arms. I'm not changing mid-stream. There are no crowns, no supporters, no mantles. Shield shapes are standard, because they already exist for Anuire, Brecht, Rjurik, and a few Khinasi. The styles and charges change, even within those national grouping, but the framework of the heraldry is standardized.

When I first started making heraldry for the wiki I asked for imput and got very little. So I resolved many of these problems myself, both technical and symbolic.

At this point I'm looking for input on wizards marks and trade marks. Heraldry for the Rjurik, Anuireans, and Brecht is established AFAIC. I have no ideas set on the Vos, and have not been collecting, creating, or developing ideas for them.

While its possible to change the shapes of shields (since I have both a png format copy and a layered psd) I already considered the value of this, and rejected it on the grounds that it would add little value and could be confusing rather than clarifying. Should Brechts in Rjurik have Brecht or Rjurik shaped shields? Either way is confusing. Heraldry was an international language, and rolls of arms produced in England rendered all arms the same way, be they French, Spanish, Imperial, Italian, Byzantine, or local. Likewise in any other roll of arms. Second, it would be much better to distinguish arms based on their style, in choices of charges and arrangement, than in the shape of the field. Going to Category:Domain:Rjuvik should give you a different feel than going to Category:Domain:Aerenwe.

It is far less productive to remain silent in questions as yet unresolved than it is to second guess settled issues.

[The Swordgaunt]

Kgauc, your efforts are appreciated! I do believe I can speak for the community when I say "Thank you, and keep up the awesome work!"

[ga150564]

I think that all of the heraldry on the wiki is fantastic, however, I would like to point out that a seperation needs to be made.

Unless the rulers of the country are also of the line of the original family that were dubbed ruler of a given land, the heraldric symbol of the country, county, duchy, barony etc. will not be the same as the personal heraldry of the ruler.

As an example... William Moergan and Jaeson Raenech are both linked to the same personal heraldry. This is impossible, they are not blood related. So if the heraldry listed for them is the heraldry of Osoerde, then different personal arms need to be created for Raenach and Moergan. Even upon a new family being crowned ruler, they would not take on the arms of the country as their personal coat of arms.

Heraldry is only passed to immediate heir unaltered, at the very least, and I believe that typically it was only 1st son. Additional sons modified it, at least slightly, to differentiate.

Another example of this is Aerenwe and Swordraith.

An example where this may be appropriate is Avan/Avanil and Boeruine, where the original family is still in control of the duchy/principalitiy from the day of it's founding.

Hi to all!
Dear Roele, what you said is not too right. :confused:
The Bourbon have their own CoA, know as Bourbon ancien. When they became King of France (and Navarra) their CoA become azur, three fleur de lis or, called France moderne (the old coa of france has many fleur de lis and is called France ancien) because it is the CoA of France!!!
They even used the surname "de France" instead of their own Bourbon.

ps: i have changed the Coa of Halskapa and Rjuvik.:eek: I apologize if i broken some copyright and so on. if you do not like the original CoA, you can link to the old file and the old (not original) CoA will reappare ;) :)

[kgauck]

We obviously had the original arms, but the original arms are irregular shapes and neither conducive to producing another two hundred like arms, nor to differencing or cadencing arms. Also, since many of the original arms were baroque in their complexity, we started of having to re-do at least some of the arms.

So since it was undesirable to use all of the original arms because of their shape, and some of the arms because of their complexity, it was decided to go with all standardized arms and not to use the originals at all.

What is the source of Rjuvik?

[ga150564]

We obviously had the original arms, but the original arms are irregular shapes and neither conducive to producing another two hundred like arms, nor to differencing or cadencing arms. Also, since many of the original arms were baroque in their complexity, we started of having to re-do at least some of the arms.

thanx for your reply:D
i do not think there are so much original coa since there were only few "secret". in Rjurik, if i am not wrong, there were only halskapa, dtjordvik and hogunmark, that is only three.
for riuvik, i am sorry:o:o, the coa was from file a friend of mine sent me some time ago, it seems quite good but, after your reply, i find no "player secret of rjuvik" (with the cover reproducing the coa) or another offcial description of the arms.

back to the matter: why only Stjordvik has the original arms? why do not let the other two realms have their coa as TSR did?:mad:


So since it was undesirable to use all of the original arms because of their shape, and some of the arms because of their complexity, it was decided to go with all standardized arms and not to use the originals at all.

and Stjordvik??? (please do not change it)

[kgauck]

Stordvik was the first realm to get much beyond a few pages, and so its one of the oldest realms. When I tried to make Stjordvik's arms, I wasn't satisfied. My learning curve has improved, so I should try it again. Much later I did make Svarkannek, which contains two of the axes from Stjordvik, but when things get smaller, detail is less of a problem.

In the interest of standardization, once I make a Stjordvik I'm happy with, I'll upload it.

The image from the PS, can be used, such as an image of Varri's actual shield, or worked into a larger picture.

For examples of what I'm thinking of, look at Ylvarrik_Castle#Affiliation where I've put the arms of Aarvald on shields of a a battle line.