Giantdowns

[Sorontar]

Discussion thread for Giantdowns (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Giantdowns). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Sorontar]

What exactly can the Giantdowns be thought of? A region? A domain? A realm? It doesn't have one main regent. It doesn't have one main leader for its law holdings. In fact, what realms there are involve small clusters of province, not the whole of the 'Downs.

What I am trying to work out is how the RP/GB distribution would work. I guess it goes on a province-by-province basis. Since Anneke Sturmdotter, the leader of the Watch, controls the law holdings in 4 provinces, was she also invested as leader of those provinces? Or is she just "invested" as regent of the law holdings. What about the Ghuralli in other provinces? And the White Witch?

Sorontar

[Lee]

In a message dated 6/4/2008 10:26:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

What I am trying to work out is how the RP/GB distribution would work. I
guess it goes on a province-by-province basis. Since Anneke Sturmdotter,
the leader of the Watch, controls the law holdings in 4 provinces, was she
also invested as leader of those provinces? Or is she just "invested" as regent
of the law holdings. What about the Ghuralli in other provinces? And the
White Witch?


This is one of the things that most infuriated me about BR modules, yet is
supposed to open up the DM`s options-- lack of grounding in the game structure.
IMC, Anneke was indeed invested in the four provinces that the Watch
hold sway, but she doesn`t do anything about them. One could easily argue if
she`s not collecting taxes or paying maintenance GB, then the domain is now
open.
Ghuralli definitely held his turf.
The White Witch is preparing to invest herself (or designated
lieutenant?) with the places she`s seized. (Why she hadn`t done so, I dunno. I
thought sending a mercenary army was blatantly out of character for her moving soft
& slow methods.)

[kgauck]

Its not a realm under anyone's control, and all of the domains inside it should be treated as any other domain that occupy any other domain. There is a law holding domain (the Watch), a law holding domain (Ghuralli), and two much larger domains that have law and temple holdings here (White Witch and Emerald Spire). No one draws regency or gold from the land, the smaller domains collect regency and gold from their holdings.

[kgauck]

I thought sending a mercenary army was blatantly out of character for her moving soft & slow methods.

Check out the description under Dagmar Druesbane. She has teased out the White Witch's plan.

Step 1) recruit giants to occupy the Old Fort of Lemnjohen and raid Dhoesone.

This will prompt Dhoesone to send adventurers to clear the fort.

Step 2) with word of the fort's capture by humans spreading, invade Bjorlangen.

The refugees will flee to the protection of the fort. This will separate the watch into two separated groups that cannot mutually support each other.

Step 3) Turn on each group in turn and defeat them separately. Exploit opportunities to confuse, co-opt, and undermine.

What actually happened at the Old Fort is probably best reconstructed by looking at both Dagmar's description and Ingric Ceolfrithsson, because the nobles of Dhoesone thought the adventurers where there to help them and the adventurers thought the nobles were just some extra firepower to help them out. I love conflicting points of view.

[Sorontar]

Kenneth scribed:


No one draws regency or gold from the land, the smaller domains collect regency and gold from their holdings.


That is what I believe. So the Giantdowns as such is no more a domain than if we said that North Africa was a domain just because it has a name (Maghreb in Arabic, or the Barbary Coast to Europeans) .

So imagine that the White Witch took over the law holdings of a province from the Watch, but couldn't easily remove the temple holdings from the Emerald Spire. Would the Spire still be able to secretly conduct an investiture and invest someone like Anneke as regent of the province, even though she no longer has any law holdings there? If so, does that mean she would get regency and GB out from underneath the WW's nose?

To quote the BRCS:


A ruling regent has putative control over an entire province. A province ruler can tax the province and make laws and regulations within the province, but without the power of the local Law holdings the regent has nothing to directly enforce her edicts. In most cases the province ruler is also the most powerful law regent in the province. Law is supposed to be a tool by which the province regent can enforce her will.


In the circumstance I am suggesting, the WW has the physical force to enforce the WW's law, but no support amongst the population. Anneke would have the support to her position but no means to enforce her orders.

But would she still get wealth from the province? Presumably she wouldn't get anything from the WW's holdings but could she get something from the Temple Holdings?

Sorontar.

[kgauck]

So imagine that the White Witch took over the law holdings of a province from the Watch, but couldn't easily remove the temple holdings from the Emerald Spire. Would the Spire still be able to secretly conduct an investiture and invest someone like Anneke as regent of the province, even though she no longer has any law holdings there? If so, does that mean she would get regency and GB out from underneath the WW's nose?

This would be the case in Bjorlangen. But I would say that the regent who hoped to claim the land in the Giantdowns would need to accomplish some of the adventures in part IV of the King of the Giantdowns, or the equivalent. Whatever Anneke or anyone else has done hasn't been enough that an investiture would "take". In effect, Anneke is aware of the situation and is looking for an heir, someone she can hand the Rjurik holdings over to who will be heroic and do what needs to be done to unify the realm, and after all of that, they can start to invest provinces.


Anneke would have the support to her position but no means to enforce her orders. But would she still get wealth from the province? Presumably she wouldn't get anything from the WW's holdings but could she get something from the Temple Holdings?

If she owns the land, she gets the income from the land tax. The WW would get the income from whatever law holdings it had. The Spire gets income from its temples. Everyone is making a GB or less.