Races: Human Subtypes

[aluman]

Now, one of the things about BR that always endeared me was the fact that humans felt unique a Khansi human was diffrent from the Anuerian was diffrent from the Rjuven was diffrent from the Brecht, was diffrent from the Vos. Part of this was the +1 -1 that humans got.

3E Made humans even more blended, and to keep the balance right internally, BRCS had to make some comprimises. Overall for 3.X BRCS did a good job at making humans subtypes feel unique.

4E Balance changed, Humans in general are still generalists, but instead of the standard +4 (+2 to two diffrent stats) that other races have, Humans get a +2 to a floater.

To bring back the flavor of 2E I think to start with, the easiest change is just to give each race at of +2's like a normal race. Humans would still have some of the versatility of their stock standard 4E counterparts (Namely, the extra At Will and extra Feat and Extra Skill), but it brings back the feel that 2E's races had.

My Suggestions
Anurieans: +2 Wis +2 Cha (Charisma drives the Warlord, which I see a lot Anurieans being.)
Issue with this: Wisdom and Charisma are both Will Save drivers, its possible to give a +2 Int, but I am unsure if we want that. Maybe +2 Str or +2 Con.

Brecht: +2 Dex +2 Cha (Charisma is the sneak-thief rogue favored attribute as well, which I think a Guilder/Merchant style would be more likely to wnat)
Issues: +2 Cha seems to be popular with races, but Paladins, Clerics, Warlords, and Warlocks all have lots of abilities that key to it, and Rogues have a fair number sooo charisma seems to be more popular overall.

Khansi: +2Int +2Wis (Status/control wizard)
Issues: This hasn't been done in the PHB or MM stated races, has potential be abused with Orb Mastery.

Rjuven: +2Dex +2Con - this one is the one I am most happy with race wise, it will lead itself to rangers which I see as prevaliant in Rjuven.

Vos: +2Str +2Con - This just plain makes sense, though I think the Vos will benfit even more from this once Primal sources comes out.

Issues: Strength and Consitution both help Fortitude Saves, I think over all though this won't matter as vos are going to be heavy into the defender classes. Maybe replace Con with Str for a strong two-weapon ranger build, but it feels weird to put ranger with Vos. Evne though 'ranger' doesn't mean 'good guy' automatically anymore.

[Green Knight]

Humans are humans, even in BR. 4E makes this even easier. Instead of forcing a fixed modifier, let humans keep their 'floater'. Perhaps there will be more Vos than Khinasi taking the +2 Str, but at least opens up the possiblilty for a player to created a really strong Khinasi fighter if he wants to.

[kgauck]

This does seem to be more of a role playing issue, so sticking with the floater is probably best.

[Vicente]

I would stick with the floater too. Later on if there are racial feats for each type of human type, those feats can have attribute pre-requisites related to the characteristics that are expected for the human type.

[Wilenburg]

I like vincente idea of having race specific feat to allow, and to keep with the floating number attribute number. and with each of the human races have a small selection of feats to make each of the breeds of humans unique.

[aluman]

To me 4E, attributes really set the 'typical' more than any other edition.

Thus a typical Vos could have higher strength.

The feat idea while it Could work, actually removes the verstality more than removing the floater (If the feats are said must be anuriean/khansi/brecht et cetra), or removes the unique flavor the human subtypes (If the feats just say 'must be human').

Furthermore, while arcane classes have only a couple of feats that they 'need' a martial powered class is going to still be spending 7-8 feats by level 10, and this means that if its a full feat tree it limits martial classes to 1 feat.

[kgauck]

True, having national paragon paths is more restrictive, but it really makes far more sense from a world building point of view. If one talent tree for Anuireans is "knight", who else could learn it but

1) someone from Anuire
2) someone in Anuire
3) someone worshiping Haelyn or Cuiraecen
(any two of the three required)

Because cultural knowleged requires that someone be inside the culture. Knowledge of cool Rjurik skills, like weapons specializations, special knowledge, require access to teachers and places to try out the knowledge.

Someone does not learn Brecht fighting styles by trial and error. These things only make sense as culturally learned.

[aluman]

Culuturally tied in paragon paths I am ok with, its the feats to give the human subtypes unique feeling that has me leery. First off, some classes have more feats they will want to begin with, which means some classes are less apt to pick up flavored feats.

[kgauck]

The cultural feats just need to be competative, and not mostly fluff. Look at what really distinguishes the nations, and go from there. I would pick a combat focus and a social role focus, with the social role focus being more useful for rulers and the people they interact with.

Anuire is heavy cavalry and noble lordship
Brechtur is sea dogs and merchantile
Khinasi is light cavalry and education
Rjurik is archery and rugged outdoor living
Vos is an infantry focus with a strength/endurance focus

There were neat other things one could do to make the nations different.

[vota dc]

A + 2 modification for the same race is too much.They are always humans,the maximum modification should be +1.
Vos should have a minum value in strenght.

[kgauck]

I'd prefer no racial modifiers for humans.

[aluman]

A + 2 modification for the same race is too much.They are always humans,the maximum modification should be +1.
Vos should have a minum value in strenght.

Even if we have modifications it should be in line with whats presented in 4E. The base value (Score-10)/2 modifer is the same from 3e, +1 means a lot of oddball tricks rather than real utility, +2 to two diffrent attributes is the mainstay for non-human races in 4e.

Humans in the core book get a +2 floater.

[AndrewTall]

I'd note that some Vos at least should have +2 int, +2 cha/wis - not every Vos is a male berserker. Kreisha's priestesses and Rournil's faithful do not meet the 'brawny himbo' stereotype.

As to feats 1 feat is not a lot to spend, if the cost bothers your players you could always add a 'cultural' feat to all PC's, they beef slightly but not by much - particularly if the cultural feat is not combat focused.

Sigh, I'm half way through the new PHB and I keep wondering if it's based of lords of the rings or snakes and ladders...

[bbeau22]

I don't think the book is out around here yet. Driving me a little crazy ... not that I have the money anyway.

So do humans only get a +2 floater or do they get a +2 somewhere else AND the floater?

I do think it is important to make the races different in some way ... how we go about that is up to all of us. Paragon path sounds like a great way to do it but might be the most work .... but also be most compatable with standard 4th edition rules which I think is important.

Do any races get bonuses to skills? That is also a simple way to make cultures different.

-BB

[aluman]

I don't think the book is out around here yet. Driving me a little crazy ... not that I have the money anyway.

So do humans only get a +2 floater or do they get a +2 somewhere else AND the floater?

+2 floater only. As all classes have three abilities they derive power from (Primary for build A, Primary for build B, Secondary Affects) it makes humans a strong second choice for any one class.


I do think it is important to make the races different in some way ... how we go about that is up to all of us. Paragon path sounds like a great way to do it but might be the most work .... but also be most compatable with standard 4th edition rules which I think is important.

The problem with that is, Paragon paths kick in at level 10, while I am on board with culture specific (not race) paragon paths, if thats the only point where the Anurieans and Brechtur have real differences then the fluff is carried to the mechanics.


Do any races get bonuses to skills? That is also a simple way to make cultures different.

-BB
Yes they do, but giving humans bonuses to skills means taking away their freebie skill (Races get +2 to two different skills, humans and half elves get 1 extra skill which amounts to a +5 bonus to that skill).

That or we decide that keeping races balanced is for the birds, and build them with both skill bonuses and a bonous skill.

[AndrewTall]

That or we decide that keeping races balanced is for the birds, and build them with both skill bonuses and a bonous skill.

They seem to have cut down race 'specials' across the board - an alternative might be adding a minor power to everyone, with humans having a choice (but strong affinity to a specific power per culture). That buffs everyone a bit, but should be manageable if the power isn't too much.

I'd argue strongly for balance - unbalanced systems cause issues as the weaker PC's need a very strong player to compensate - the inherent unfairness detracts from the game system. I'd follow Ken though and say that balance is a game wide phenomena, not simply a combat one. As long as the balance isn't made up with a McGuffin power it should be fine.

[Lawgiver]

Ability score mods are ok, but a +4 swing seems over the top/uber-heroic, but that may be needed for 4E, I'm not sure. If done, I'd pick 3 of the attributes to limit the floater too.


I'd recommend free bonus skills and/or feats by race and possibly a penalty for each. This style works well in the d20 Conan system and gives a good flavor without being over powering.

[aluman]

Ability score mods are ok, but a +4 swing seems over the top/uber-heroic, but that may be needed for 4E, I'm not sure. If done, I'd pick 3 of the attributes to limit the floater too.

If you mean the +2 to 2 diffrent attributes that mainstay in 4e. Humans have a +2 floater in the base book. I suppose we could up the flaoter to say +2 to 1 and +2 to another, and limit along the save pairings (STR/CON, DEX/INT, CHA/WIS)
Either +2 (STR/CON) and +2 (CHA/WIS) or +2 to two of (STR, INT, WIS) for instance.
However if we keep floating I think +2 by itself is best period. Its too easy to accidentally allow powered up characters that way.



I'd recommend free bonus skills and/or feats by race and possibly a penalty for each. This style works well in the d20 Conan system and gives a good flavor without being over powering.
Well, if it was 3e and they had attribute +mods I would recommend -mods as well. However this is 4E, there is no penalties to attributes anymore.

[aluman]

They seem to have cut down race 'specials' across the board - an alternative might be adding a minor power to everyone, with humans having a choice (but strong affinity to a specific power per culture). That buffs everyone a bit, but should be manageable if the power isn't too much.
Actually, all races but Dwarves and Humans and Half elves (So eladrin, dragonborn, halflings, elves) have racial encounter powers.
Dragonborn breathe stuff, Eladrin teleport, Halflings can make the DM reroll a hit, Elves can reroll a miss.


I'd argue strongly for balance - unbalanced systems cause issues as the weaker PC's need a very strong player to compensate - the inherent unfairness detracts from the game system. I'd follow Ken though and say that balance is a game wide phenomena, not simply a combat one. As long as the balance isn't made up with a McGuffin power it should be fine.

Well, Balance is diffrent from 3e to 4e from what I can see. ITs not longer Balanced along power lines (IE, does Power X of the Fighter do too much damage) its balanced along 'can everyone in the party contribute' so while rangers might be able to do 2d10+str*2 to a foe, this is their role in the party, they are striker.

[Lawgiver]

If you mean the +2 to 2 diffrent attributes that mainstay in 4e. Humans have a +2 floater in the base book. I suppose we could up the flaoter to say +2 to 1 and +2 to another, and limit along the save pairings (STR/CON, DEX/INT, CHA/WIS)
Either +2 (STR/CON) and +2 (CHA/WIS) or +2 to two of (STR, INT, WIS) for instance.
However if we keep floating I think +2 by itself is best period. Its too easy to accidentally allow powered up characters that way.
If it's the new standard the +2 is fine. Though I'd like to see it limited to 2-4 attributes rather than 100% floater so that it actually fits the race. Not a die hard on the idea if it's changed to use skills/feats mods.



Well, if it was 3e and they had attribute +mods I would recommend -mods as well. However this is 4E, there is no penalties to attributes anymore.
I said skills not attributes. ;)

[bbeau22]

This is copied from another posting. Fits into this subject better.


Alright I spent some time looking at races. I feel I have a good answer to a conversion to Birthright.

The races listed in the 4th edition are.

Dragonborn - Not allowed in Birthright
Dwarf - Allowed
Eladrin - Maybe but certainly special case
Elf - Allowed
Half-elf - Allowed
Halfling - Allowed
Human - Allowed

For ease of transtion and for others who are picking up Birthright for the first time I would say we keep racial starting abilities the same.

The only issue we have then is the different humans we have in Cerilia. I would suggest that we keep human starting abilities the same but include racial feats to keep them seperate. The goal would be one racial feat for each tier ... heroic, paragon, epic.

Anuirean - Diplomacy skills boosts, War type skill boosts, heavy armor boosts
Khinasi - Arcana skill boosts, Spell boosts, Light armor boosts
Rjurik - Nature skill boosts, Hide armor boosts
Brecht - Unsure. Thievery boosts? Guild boosts.
Vos - Combat boosts, Strength check boost.


I think the most important thing is ease of transtion from 4th edition core rules and our rules. If we complicate it too much then we keep any new people away. I also feel if we keep it simple then it is easier for others to house rule it to fit their style.

-BB

[Wilenburg]

with humans we can do it as every human is he same but do a cultural feat which is used as level to provide certain bonuses to skills and attributes and can grant them a list of feats even if they do not have the prerequsite as the cultural feat could be used as well.

[bbeau22]

Good idea I was thinking something similer. Not having to create new feats would make things easier.

-BB

[dragntyr]

This is just a thought I had It gives BR human races a very slight edge against the D&D Core Races but I Do not believe it will imbalance the race to much... tell me what you like and dislike, I like the Idea of the floater stat from previous posts So I will most likely use it in my games.

RACIAL TRAITS
All humans have the Fallowing traits in common. See each of the human sub races for more Racial Traits.
Average Height: 5’6” – 6’ 2”
Average Weight: 135 – 220 lbs.

Size: Medium
Speed: 6 Squares
Vision: Normal

Languages: Common, and your regional
Bonus at Will Power: You know one extra at-will power from your class.
Bonus Feat: You gain a bonus Feat at first at first level. You must meet the feat’s prerequisites.

Anuirean
RACIAL TRAITS
Abilities Scores: +2 to Charisma
Bonus Skill: Choose one of the Fallowing as a bonus skill Bluff, or Insight, You also receive a +1 bonus to either History or Diplomacy.
Human Defense Bonuses: +1to Fortitude and Reflex as well as a +2 to Will Defense.

Brecht
RACIAL TRAITS
Abilities Scores: +2 to Dexterity
Bonus Skill: Choose one of the Fallowing as a bonus skill Bluff, or Diplomacy, You also receive a +1 bonus to either Acrobatics or Streetwise.
Human Defense Bonuses: +1to Fortitude and Will as well as a +2 Reflex to Defense.

Khinasi
RACIAL TRAITS
Abilities Scores: +2 to Intelligence
Bonus Skill: Choose one of the Fallowing as a bonus skill Arcana, or Religion, You also receive a +1 bonus to either Diplomacy or Insight.
Human Defense Bonuses: +1to Fortitude and Reflex as well as a +2 Will to Defense.

Rjurik
RACIAL TRAITS
Abilities Scores: +2 to Constitution
Bonus Skill: Choose one of the following as a bonus skill Nature, or Endurance, You also receive a +1 bonus to either Athletics or Heal.
Human Defense Bonuses: +1to Reflex and Will as well as a +2 Fortitude to defense.

Vos
RACIAL TRAITS
Abilities Scores: +2 to Strength
Bonus Skill: Choose one of the following as a bonus skill Athletics, or Endurance, You also receive a +1 bonus to either Nature or Heal.
Human Defense Bonuses: +1to Reflex and Will as well as a +2 Fortitude to defense.

Mestian (for the sake of being complete)
RACIAL TRAITS
Abilities Scores: +2 to Wisdom
Bonus Skill: Choose one of the following as a bonus skill Religion, or Nature, You also receive a +1 bonus to either Diplomacy or Heal.
Human Defense Bonuses: +1to Fortitude and Reflex as well as a +2 Will to defense.


I would also add Human regional feats to further increase each sub races special characteristics (I believe that someone already said this as well earlier). It would also allow you to build in some neat racial options.

Now as I said I would use the floater stat to let the player use but I think these minor adjustments would still alow for the BR flavor and still allow for the Player choice. I mainly restricted giving lots of skill out because there are so few instead opting to give one and add a +1 bonus to another one.

dragntyr

Edit: Fixed Rjurik Constitution bonus I believe that this is now correct. Sorry about that.

[kgauck]

Is Rjurik supposed to be +2 Intelligence? Or Constitution?

[Sorontar]

There is no such language as Common in Birthright.

Sorontar

[Thelandrin]

The Masetian people are all but extinct. Whilst I like your following bonuses, do they really need so many save bonuses?

[Wilenburg]

From what I have seen in 4th ed rules the humans as a base got +1 to each of the three saves he was trying to very up the humans of Cerilia which looked pretty go at a quick glance.

[irdeggman]

From what I have seen in 4th ed rules the humans as a base got +1 to each of the three saves he was trying to very up the humans of Cerilia which looked pretty go at a quick glance.


Ahh but as was true in 3.5 a +2 to a save is much more significant than a +1 to two different ones. So a +2 and a +1 is more significant than +1 to all three. Make that "defense" instead of "save" - change in philosophy with 4th ed.

[AndrewTall]

Hmm, I'd prefer a choice of two stats for each race.

Vos for example - are we talking thuggish barbarian stereotype or ultra-cunning priestess of Kreisha stereotype?

So.
Anuirean +2 cha or +2 wis

Brecht +2 dex or +2 int

Khinasi +2 int or +2 wis

Rjurik +2 con or +2 wis

Vos +2 stn or +2 int

[bbeau22]

Hmm, I'd prefer a choice of two stats for each race.

Vos for example - are we talking thuggish barbarian stereotype or ultra-cunning priestess of Kreisha stereotype?

So.
Anuirean +2 cha or +2 wis

Brecht +2 dex or +2 int

Khinasi +2 int or +2 wis

Rjurik +2 con or +2 wis

Vos +2 stn or +2 int



I like this version. Keeps with 4th edition with humans only getting a +2 to their stats, but with a Birthright twist.

[dragntyr]

There is no such language as Common in Birthright.

Sorontar

True But if Memory Serves me correctly there was a Trade Language, So sticking with 4th ED I simplified a little and called it Common. Feel Free to make the change if you would like. :)

Every thing I posted is just an Idea for a conversion so the feed back on any errors are good and valid. I do not have my original Campaign guide with all of the racial stats any more I am using the 3.0 conversion guide as my inspiration. I have even fix one them.

As for the Mestians They are still around in sufficient numbers on the Isle of the serpent that they deserved some stats Even if they are only just A NPC (that is my soul reasoning behind it).

I also do not feel that a +1 to two defenses and a +2 to one defense is unbalanced, but if you feel that way why not just use the human +3 to defenses and allow people to assign them as they see fit.

So lets say some thing like this then.....:cool:
Human defense Bonuses: Humans gain a total of +3 to distribute to the following defenses: Fortitude, Reflex, Willpower. You may not assign more than a +2 to any one defense.

Sorry I guess this post answers a few posters not just the one I quoted..

[Thelandrin]

The trade tongue was Low Brecht or Basarji. There was still no common language, trade-tongue or otherwise.

[irdeggman]

I also do not feel that a +1 to two defenses and a +2 to one defense is unbalanced, but if you feel that way why not just use the human +3 to defenses and allow people to assign them as they see fit.

So lets say some thing like this then.....:cool:
Human defense Bonuses: Humans gain a total of +3 to distribute to the following defenses: Fortitude, Reflex, Willpower. You may not assign more than a +2 to any one defense.



Again this is is greater than the PHB (+1 to each of the three).

I would instead give them a +2 to a specific defense (applicable to the subrace).

A +2 to a defense is equivalent to a paragon level feat (see Great Fort, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes). This might be high when combined with an additional +1 to a different defense. A single +2 is probably about right.

Possibly an additional feat (from a select list for each subrace) instead of the +1 defense bonus might work.

So a +2 to s specific defense (based on subrace) and a bonus feat from a select list. This bonus feat is in addition to the normal bonus feat that humans get.

[Wilenburg]

I think he means that the total over all 3 is a +3 bonus, one for each of the stats and what he is suggesting is that the combinations of bonuses should equal to the +3 like the phb describes so that there is the same balance as the phb.

[kgauck]

Ahh but as was true in 3.5 a +2 to a save is much more significant than a +1 to two different ones.

So a +2 and a +1 is more significant than +1 to all three.

irdeggman addressed the total +3 , observing that uneven distribution is more powerful.

I think his latest suggestion:

So a +2 to s specific defense (based on subrace) and a bonus feat from a select list. This bonus feat is in addition to the normal bonus feat that humans get.

...is ideal. Score me in full agreement.

[dragntyr]

I think he means that the total over all 3 is a +3 bonus, one for each of the stats and what he is suggesting is that the combinations of bonuses should equal to the +3 like the phb describes so that there is the same balance as the phb.

You are correct Wilenburg. I personally will not be making this change at all I will most likely use most of the races from the PHB unchanged. This one defense adjustment will not make a huge difference it will just make the humans that have a particular defenses be harder to effect.


I just had a huge brain wave... Maybe we are looking at this the wrong way, maybe we should leave the defenses alone (Which everyone seems to agree on) and instead give a bonus to a saving VS one type of ongoing Damage instead. This would make them hardier and should end the save sooner for those that are more resilient against that type of damage.

So it would only be a +1 (since saves are just a D20 roll + bonuses) Anuireans + 1 VS “ongoing Damage (only VS Exploits)” Saves, Brecht + 1 VS “ongoing Lightening damage” Saves, Khinasi + 1 VS “ongoing Fire Damage” Saves, Rjurik + 1 VS “ongoing Cold Damage” Saves, Vos + 1 VS Death Saves (or maybe to help resist Disease instead), Mestian + 1 VS “ongoing Radiant Damage” Saves

Just because of the use of blood powers, these are what is really going to cause game balance issues. I have started to look at these to try to convert them but the way that they are currently set up will not work at all. Time for me to go so I will check back later and finish my thoughts then.

[irdeggman]

Has anyone checked what the Forgotten Realms 4th ed info has?

They had (in 3.5 and earlier) very specific cultural issues that made everyone culturally specific and not generic. I would be interested in hearing how they handled cultural differences in 4th ed.

I do think there is a difference between cultural and racial. Cultural has to do with how you were raised from a young age while racial has to do with genetics and how different groups have adapted over centuries. Why there were multiple subraces of elves (with different ability adjustments) {in other settings and the MM} - this was what the 2nd ed BR was attempting to capture with the differing ability adjustments for human subraces.

[Vicente]

Has anyone checked what the Forgotten Realms 4th ed info has?

The FR books aren't out yet. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide comes out in August and the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide comes out in September.

The Amazon.com information doesn't speak about new races:

"This product includes everything a player needs to create his character for a D&D campaign in the Forgotten Realms setting, including new feats, new character powers, new paragon paths and epic destinies, and even a brand-new character class...".

[Wilenburg]

there are going to be new races in the player's guide according to the wizards site.

[Vicente]

I found a thread on ENWorld commenting the new races on the Player's Guide, but so far no "elves variations" are mentioned :(

This is the quote I found on ENWorld:


The Forgotten Realms Player's Guide will include the Swordmage, as well as Drow and Genasi (source). It will also include a multiclass-only class for characters with spellscars (source). Barbarians, Bards, Druids, and Gnomes will be mentioned in Forgotten Realms products (source), as will Half-Orcs and Goliaths (source).


Gnomes are in the PHB2 (source). Others races in the PHB2 start with D, G, H, and S, and have second letters O, E, and H, and one has the final letter R (source, source). A Goliath appears on the cover, as well as what may be a Gnome or Shifter.

This is the thread:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=224280

This thread (Differentiating Races: Racial Classes) talks about a similar subject, so maybe it's a good place to get ideas and other points of view about the human sub-types:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=235173

[Wilenburg]

drow are the elves from the undergound so that is your elven variation.

[Vicente]

Well at least in 3e Drow and normal Elves were pretty different (Drows even had level adjustments). I thought that we wanted information about the elf subclasses (Sun, Moon, etc) to get ideas for human subclasses rather than create a full new race for each human culture.

It could be another approach, but if that's the approach we already have the example of the Eladrin (High Elves) vs Elf (Wood Elves).

[irdeggman]

Well at least in 3e Drow and normal Elves were pretty different (Drows even had level adjustments). I thought that we wanted information about the elf subclasses (Sun, Moon, etc) to get ideas for human subclasses rather than create a full new race for each human culture.

It could be another approach, but if that's the approach we already have the example of the Eladrin (High Elves) vs Elf (Wood Elves).

Like I said there are 2 parts.

One cultural (which would follow the FR system of regions - no one yet has an idea of what that will look like in 4th ed) and another is genetics - for the ability modifiers.